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It wasn't certain death. I don't even know why the mafia got the win. I logically overpower their one killer which would make it so I can't be killed and they lose if I get assasinfred to vote with me.
I thought a 50% chance of convincing assasinfred was better than 3 improbable things going my way.
Which, as I understand from Alchemator, gets passed on the subsequent night. So Quag's kill would fail, and then Spiffy would succeed Quag the next day.
good game, guys! I had fun. Anyways, undisputed, you really did make the wrong move by killing a villager. If you had killed a mafian,the numbers would be 2-1-1, leaving ONLY ONE MAFIA left. Village would lynch the mafian, because we would lose right there if we lynched wolf. All you had to do after that was kill a villager the next night for the win.
No you guys are missing the point. You would've made the bad move if you lynched the mafia because you would lose to me automatically. The best move you could have made was no lynch. For reference, this is what would have happened:
Your best option is to idle and let us tie the vote on each other. The next night, the mafia would kill me while I killed a villager to hopefully go to 1 village v. 1 mafia. I can only win in this situation if mafia/me double kill AND billy doesn't pick the correct one of us. But even then, I don't think Quag/Spiffy would have been dumb enough to not try and kill me.
You guys could have won here, or the mafia could have won here. I can't as long as no one makes a bad move.
I thought the game was enjoyable from my position but if I was a villager I'd be frustrated as fuck at the way it was played (thanks Spiffy). Balance-wise it all worked out pretty well, and any imbalances came from the players themselves rather than the roles. Mafia was a little weak in my opinion, if the village was more compotent (no offense guys...) we could have been in serious trouble. The problem was that the village pretty much believed anything they were told and lynched people on a whim, so if claiming vanilla wasn't enough defense what else is one supposed to do?
I was trying to play (publically) as a vanilla, doing as I used to do in #fluodome when I got villager (like 75% of the time); goof around, make witty remarks, and be independant whilest following the action (and maybe even come in at a crucial point and win the game :D). Didn't quite work, people kept on suspecting me for absolutely no reason (hi I can see your accusations, the fact that I didn't immediately defend myself was not scum tell). Then people started a roll on me while I was at work ;_; My spy claim didn't work quite as expected but it did input doubts in Alch's claim, which was handy. Also fuck TLE for doubting I could have survived if I was the spy.
Now I don't handle unknowns very well so when I heard of the spy I immediately freaked. The mafia were fighting amongst themselves alongside combatting the village, which I found quite fun! Not only was it a fantastic twist, but we knew absolutely nothing about him other than he wasn't our ally. It could have been the boss himself ffs. But I knew the spy had to be pretty harmless to be balanced early game (a lot of my assumptions about the spy were used in my Spy defense claim). So I started openly presenting theories about the spy. I guess this caught Spiffy's attention, as he had threatened to boss kill me, claiming to have an inspector ability that saw me as Spy. This didn't add up though because it made the Spy's life hell. So with this came two possibilities: 1) Spiffy was bluffing it, meaning he was likely the spy and claiming inspect powers to off one of us, having a free ride home; or 2) he could inspect, but was paranoid. Needless to say I was not about to accept the injustice, so I had Spiffy overthrown. Here's the PM I sent Alch/Quagsires regarding the situation:
Veedrock said:
You'll notice that Spiffy is not in the senders list. See, Spiffy is accusing me of being the spy, and he is planning on bosskilling me tonight. Apparantly as the mafia boss, he is able to inspect each of us to tell if we're spy. This is a weird revelation for two reasons. Firstly, in the original PM we received the boss's PM is pasted; it is not mentioned anywhere. Secondly, considering how few of us there are to check, it gives the spy too tough a time. However, I've thought over this a bit and I'm piecing it together. See, I'm not the spy. Yet Spiffy is convinced I am because of his inspection result. So I've come up with 2 possibilities:
1) Spiffy is paranoid.
2) Spiffy is the spy and making up the ability.
So what do I plan on doing? I want to overthrow Spiffy. If I become boss (a two night process, we have to demote Spiffy then elect a new boss), I can then confirm the inspection exists. If the inspection doesn't exist, Spiffy is the spy among us. So, If the inspection does exist, Spiffy is very likely clean, but does confirm the ability is paranoid and very much useless, at which point we still have to identify the spy (Finn may have been the spy but I'm not banking on it, he sacrificed a lot and played too aggressively).
What I need is one (or both) of you to submit Night 2 - overthrow the boss. It'll only take two votes to do, so mine along with another will do the trick. It's in the best interest for the nonspy among you to help me because if Spiffy kills me, he'll likely be convinced the spy is legitimately gone and we'll get fucked in the end. So what of the spy? Are you going to tell Spiffy? In doing so you're putting yourself into a suspicious spot for wanting to continue this injustice.
Feel free to contact me on IRC if you want to talk more, though I'm not sure what else there is I can say.
Spiffy later confessed he was bluffing the ability to try and put pressure on the spy (should he have found him), he just picked the wrong guy to do it with :P He was sore about the situation for awhile but we elected Quagsires as the new boss and it worked out just as well (I picked him as my first choice, and I'm assuming he picked himself as first choice too). It was apparant Alch was spy after awhile, he was way too cautious around us and did not mingle very well with the rest of us. However, I was quite shocked to learn that Alch was actually allied with the wolf rather than against us, and having outside communication with him was allowed. It was pretty handy though, we were able to coordinate kills flawlessly because of that.
If I had one suggestion for future games of similar structure is that when you're dead, you can not post, period. Believe it or not when you post saying "Oh that sucks good luck village" you're pretty much giving the middle finger to the lack of cardflip in the game. And you may think "well people don't have to believe it" but they do, and frankly that's your intention.
Also, wtf is with getting yourself godkilled guys? You signed up for the game knowing full well you couldn't talk outside the game, so intention "good of the village" shit is an extremely dick move against the host.
Actually, I suspected that the Mafia would easily figure me out. That's obviously explained because I was so adamant in supporting J-square and lynching FinnRagetti. The only other person who would that Finn was mafia would obviously be the person supporting the Inspector in the lynch. -TLE- obviously could have "been" inspector, but when it came down to it, I even made hints about the inspector. And I'm quite sure that some of the village in addition to the mafia figured this out. Of course, I didn't make those blatantly obvious. I had the urge to write a paragraph early on, with the first letter of each sentence spelling out "I am an inspector." Of course, how would I do that without pointing out that my paragraph would not be what it seemed...but nevertheless, I enjoyed this game as much as I hated it. I knew that the game was basically a powder keg, waiting to blow up as soon as the J-man/Raverist/J-squared incidents occurred. I also was pretty worried that a mafian would come out and "counter" claim inspector after J-squared made his claim. It would've been easy to do too. All the mafia would've needed to do was have two of their guys "pretend" to be inspectors, (especially after Rave died) and claim so and so was clean, while so and so was not. Yeah, otherwise, I agree with vonFiedler's comment. Making this a FULL NOC would've benefited the village a little more.
Edit: Also, I think that had we had a NO LYNCH Day 1, contrary to what most people said, we would've been in better shape, especially since FinnRagetti took the steering wheel a bit too early on (albeit we didn't know Finn was mafia until N1 was over, but I digress).
Had a mafia claimed inspector I think I probably would've claimed BG, who knows how the hell that would've worked out but I'd already used one protect and would've known 2 mafia. Me and J^2 likely would've both died though.
I personally think that the BG should have had unlimited protections without giving away his name. It would have helped make up for the 0% chance of crossfire and double-targetting.
I personally think that the BG should have had unlimited protections without giving away his name. It would have helped make up for the 0% chance of crossfire and double-targetting.
And you & Acklow would have claimed at the first, been counter-claimed, and cardflip would show who to trust. With a hidden BG guarding you clean people one-by-one and possibly sweep. No thank you. EDIT: though I concede 1 more protect would not have been out of the question.
And you & Acklow would have claimed at the first, been counter-claimed, and cardflip would show who to trust. With a hidden BG guarding you clean people one-by-one and possibly sweep. No thank you. EDIT: though I concede 1 more protect would not have been out of the question.
I just think it would have made the mafia's and wolf's kill choices a little harder, other than, "Let's just target the power roles, and soon enough we'll find the BG while killing the other powerful roles." Was choosing your kills really that hard? The wolf's/mafia's kills were pretty obvious (it didn't take too much skill to figure out who to kill), especially when they didn't have to worry about crossfire. It didn't help that all our powerful roles were out in the open, but this was NOC...what were we supposed to do?
We had to figure out who everyone else was. The mafia/wolf should have at least had to figure out who the BG was on their own. And yes, even one more protection would have been useful.
Veedrock pretty much summed up all of my thoughts and the mafia's struggles in his post, so thanks!
What's funny is that I pulled the inspection stunt on Alch about an hour before I did it to Veed. Alch completely freaked out, and I can't believe I didn't realize that the huge overreaction pretty much labeled him as spy.
I was bickering about the spy mechanic the whole game, as Aura Guardian can confirm for me (:P) but I guess the spy knowing the wolf makes up for it, because it elimated the possibility of crossfire.
Go team!
EDIT: I also agree that the bodyguard should have had unlimited protects without being found by the would-be killer.
fun game though. I'll add more when I get back from school
edit: Well, I guess I kinda screwed it up in some ways, killing two villies. Both were suspicious, though Fitzy's godkill seemed suspicious. Total potato was probably a bad idea, but I wanted to kill someone, considereing at that point I figured this would be like lockdown 1&2. I cant believe billy outed me since I was trying to get him unlynched, and had I survived til the ending or a bit later I would have had another kill, winning the game, possibly, or at least getting J^2 another inspect.
On the bright side, we played well, and we proved NOC is something which CAN be played on smogon. Really, the amazingly inconvenient collaboration between the mafia and wolf saved the game for the mafia, since had we one more villager, we had a chance to win the game.
good game guys.
Also, next time I get into an AG game everyone can assume I am the vig.
Which, as I understand from Alchemator, gets passed on the subsequent night. So Quag's kill would fail, and then Spiffy would succeed Quag the next day.
We actually debated whether Aura would let that happen or not a little on our iirc channel, but we thought in the end that this would happen. Aura probably already had decided what would happen if you took out the boss any night to be like this. Just turned out to be game-deciding...
role command (Night 0): Night 0 - recruit USER1, USER2, USER3, and USER4
effect: those four will join you. I will then choose one of you to be the Spy, an infiltrator in your team.
role command (Night 1 and later): Night x - Bosskill ALLY
effect: ALLY is one of your teammates, separate from mafia kill, this is for if you think that player is the spy.
role command (Night 1 and later): Night x - Mafia kill USER
effect: you will kill USER
role command (Day 1 and later): select ALLY as my successor.
effect: ALLY will take your place as boss if you die. your entire team will be informed of this choice. If there is no successor when you die, it will be put to a vote.
But it never stated when the successions happened, but during the overthrow, it happened the next day, with the results announced at the beginning of the night, so I do see how it could be inferred that was what Alch thought. Just didn't work like that in the end...
A_G was generous with you. I pmed him yesterday before he made the desicion, and he said he didn't know. So he basically just chose you guys to win because he wanted to. There was no priority.
but I'm done arguing with you. "good job" on a host desicion win.
A_G was generous with you. I pmed him yesterday before he made the desicion, and he said he didn't know. So he basically just chose you guys to win because he wanted to. There was no priority.
but I'm done arguing with you fools. "Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience". "good job" on a host desicion win.
I know that it would have been a host decided win if I won. I put you and myself in that position, remember? The reason my posts may sound kind of "ass"ish is mainly because Quagsires insists that you guys had it in the bag the whole time which is blatantly untrue. Your win was generous; you can't pretend it wasn't. If I won, it would have been generous too. To pretend anything more is just kidding yourself. Either way, I'm really not going to spend my time arguing on a Pokemon forum with you, veedrock. Have a nice day, and good job.
In order of power, wolf>village≈mafia. The reason I say village and mafia are about equal is because with the pseudo-coordination, the village was taking all of the casualties (the village was very powerful role-wise relative to the mafia, but they were poorly executed). From the beginning the mafia was not united, each having to be cautious of everyone else yet being forced to collaborate as a whole. I can't speak for the others but that had me at wit's end. So we not only had to fight the village and yourself, but a battle amongst ourselves.
Forget any preconceived pity for the wolf, the spy gave you the easiest time out of everybody the entire game. You knew exactly who was mafia and who was village. Now what gave you an easy time? Firstly, if you acted as a villager you weren't at risk to be hit by the village. Well that applies for us as well but with there being 4 of us, there was no way we would all pass under the radar. So the village was much more likely to find and hit us than you. If they had found you? They wouldn't have offed you immediately and you would break us down to the point of a village win. Had they chosen to off you, nothing would stop Alch from outing us and handing them the game. So the village confronting you hurt us just as much as it hurt you. If the vig hit you by accident, we would have struggled to thin the village. So while you were sitting pretty easy the whole game, we had to balance a ton of factors, the entire time aware we were being moled (but unaware it was going to you directly).
You were not in control of the entire game; you were only aware of everything. You were an observer, not a manipulator. You had no control over the lynches; the village did. You had no control over our kills (Alch had very little input on anything we did). If you think "oh I needed you to kill him and you did," that's because we needed and wanted the kill, not because of any influence from you. So you figured out what two villagers needed to die, big deal. That is not difficult, and that's more or less what we did each night. Then we considered what unguided wolf might do, and picked our target accordingly. If it happened to match who you planned to kill, that's circumstance, not manipulation. If we picked the target you were going to hit, you adjusted accordingly. You were skipping to our lou, like it or not.
Now about the priority finish, there 2 things to keep in mind. Firstly, the role PM did not state when the succession occurred; Alch gave you bad info that you acted on, and this is not our fault nor the host's. Secondly, 'mills had to stalk one of us five to survive the kill had we targeted him; this implies that even though the boss sent the kill, it was committed by all of us. AG may have stated that only the boss can kill but that doesn't add up with the rogue ability. Ultimately, that's probably what he based his decision on, not favoring us over you.
You having the easiest time does NOT mean you should have been awarded the win. You being aware of the happenings in the game does NOT mean you should have been awarded the win. That's what it all boils down to. We fought not only the village and yourself but an internal struggle that was ultimately benefiting you, so if anybody had the most hardship to overcome in this game it was definitely us.
Ok Spiffy, I didn't overreact. Stop bigging yourself up here :P
I came onto IRC one night and Spiffy PM'd me saying "I know you're the spy". At first I did freak, but didn't say anything. Then I thought things through and knew that he was bluffing. For reference, here is my role PM.
Aura Guardian said:
You are: spy
no role command
ability: your lynch vote is void, you appear as mafia upon inspection and upon death on a cardflip turn.
undisputed is the wolf
alliance: wolf
special rule: You may not claim this role until after the game is over.
restriction: If you become the mafia boss, you cannot use the bosskill.
notes: You win if you survive and all mafia and village die. You may communicate with undiputed outside of the thread. You received a PM that indicated that you were mafia. You are treated as mafia in almost all regards. If the rogue stalks you, he is treated as having stalked both the mafia and the wolf. If undisputed dies, you will die too.
Spiffy claimed to have a secret inspection power because he was the boss, and that he'd inspected me, finding out that I was spy. This is where the bolded part comes in. I would have appeared as mafia if I was inspected - the boss having a mole-piercing inspection would be broken against me: I'd be dead by night 4. So I just told him that he was bluffing for a good few minutes until he pronounced me clean and left :3
When I received the PM from Veedrock, I knew that Spiffy had tried the same tactic on him. It seemed a golden opportunity for me to get rid of the boss and have myself or Veedrock (who thought Spiffy was the spy) elected in his place. When Quagsires forwarded the message to Spiffy I dismissed it as stupid - he just made himself another candidate for spy.
To my surprise, Quagsires was elected instead (would be nice to see everyone's votes here, I voted primarily for myself and secondly for Veedrock). This was just as Veedrock was lynched, claiming spy. Him outting -TLE- instead of a mafia 'cleaned' him though, which was a problem. Due to timezone differences I couldn't put Spiffy or Quagsires under any influence (paranoia-wise) and they had resolutely agreed that I was spy in a really stupid way (as far as I know it went something like "I'm not spy" "I'm not spy either" "That means Alch is spy!"). I knew I was safe from the bosskill though, since Quagsires couldn't risk losing a member at that point in the game.
The mafia as a whole in my opinion were constantly looking at short-term gain in killing the power roles rather than strategising for the long-run. They relied too heavily on the wolf and, though I did relay everything necessary, if it wasn't for undisputed constantly planning who to kill judging the power of every faction (flooding my inbox >_<) they would have lost.
I'm really annoyed at the village for generally being stupid, save for Acklow and Billymills. I was being suspected simply because I was on the 'scum list' of an inspected mafioso. Oh that and 'my posts were very suspicious because they werent' spammy enough'. Really, if you're going to suspect me do it for a good reason!
And A_G in regards to your postgame-ish review on me. I did try and steer the lynch away from -TLE- and onto Quagsires, but Billy didn't notice / listen / have time to change and I'd rather -TLE- be lynched than me!
Overall this is one funnest (bleurgh, word choice) games I've played possibly ever, though I guess I did get the best role.
If anything, undisputed and I didn't need outside contact. I was basically a second opinion but beyond outting the mafia to him n0 I didn't really have need to talk to him.
The null vote was justified, but I did feel that myself and undisputed were slightly too weak. I can't suggest any way to improve this without totally screwing the balance though :P
