As previously mentioned, this isn't even a discussion we should start for a long time. It's too early in the metagame to look at playstyles when we're still trying to figure out the initial banlist. However, if we absolutely must entertain this discussion now, there's a few things I'd like to talk about. Let's maybe try and get some objectivity on the matter. I have some personal opinions against how trapping in general is discussed in the context of the last 2 or 3 gens, but I'll try and keep this post to some facts only. Let's use some data to try and build up a real argument here. ORAS can only provide a limited view to the future of the SM tier, but it's at least an indicator of rough patterns based on past tiering decisions. Of course, there's the obvious one that we'll get out of the way first: We went to save Sab once with a STag ban, then ended up banning Sab in the long run. I feel like talking about this is beating a dead horse, but there's at least some precedent that removing trappers does not significantly reduce the power of Sableye in a metagame. It cuts off one of its best support options, but the fundamental issues of why Sableye is the core of every stall team is still there. It still prevents hazards and stallbreaking options like Status and Taunt from really impacting most stall teams, where as otherwise those types of stallbreakers are significant threats to those team types. Again, everyone's heard this one, so let's move onto something that's a little more recent. The impact of Sableye's ban on Dugtrio in ORAS. Dugtrio is significantly more powerful in SM, and I doubt it'd fall from OU without Sableye's presence, but the incredible impact Sableye has when leaving a metagame can't be understated. I'll be looking at a number of stats here: Hide (Move your mouse to the hide area to reveal the content) Show Hide Hide Hide Dugtrio's usage pre-Sab ban (ou-1695): | 51 | Dugtrio | 3.73668% | 73067 | 1.292% | 53932 | 1.294% | Dugtrio's usage last month (ou-1695): | 70 | Dugtrio | 1.98665% | 17494 | 1.455% | 13185 | 1.525% | Dugtrio's current performance in ORAS SPL: | 33 | Dugtrio | 1 | 5.00% | 100.00% | Current SM Duggy usage: | 19 | Dugtrio | 9.04439% | 88332 | 3.941% | 64191 | 3.889% | SM SPL results: | 7 | Dugtrio | 10 | 16.67% | 60.00% | ADV SPL results: | 7 | Dugtrio | 5 | 25.00% | 60.00% | ADV OU usage last month (ou-1695): | 14 | Dugtrio | 16.92944% | 4352 | 14.203% | 3075 | 12.746% | As stated earlier in this thread, it's not impossible to build a decent Sab-less stall team, and Dugtrio is still fairly good in non-stall teams. However, let me remind you all that there was serious discussion to try and ban Dugtrio from ORAS for the sole reason of keeping Sableye in the tier. The argument ended up being shut down since Dugtrio never really compared to its Shadow Tag brethren and ultimately Sableye left the tier. In it's wake, we see a Dugtrio that's overall underperforming. It has won in its single appearance in SPL, but if it really was something that could be squeezed onto non-sableye stall to great effect we'd be seeing more of it. Its usage in OU mirrors this sentiment. If we want to analyze this data to project the impact of Sableye on Dugtrio's usage in the SM OU metagame, you can look at varying factors, including team mate statistics, percentage point drop, or raw percentage drop depending on how you want to interpret the data, which would leave Dugtrio with 4.83% to 7.29% usage, heavily favoring the 7.2% zone. The significance of those statistics can project the impact of Dugtrio and Sableye on the metagame, to an extent. One point I'd like to bring up that a Sableye ban would certainly bring Dugtrio's usage to less than half of gen 3 usage stats, and I can't even remember a time where I heard someone bring up banning Duggy in ADV OU. Obviously the more gens we drift from SM the harder comparing gens becomes, but data does drive a significant point: At all levels of play, Dugtrio performs better by itself in RS (the metagame where Dugtrio's place in the metagame is most similar: a very strong "generic" trapper) than in SM, and only at the top level of play in combination with Sableye does it exceed that level of power (Sab 80% WR, 4/5 games). I'd also like to throw in there that removing Sab stats from current SPL record would leave Duggy at 5 games and 40% WR, which isn't exactly outstanding. The reason I bring this up is to remind everyone here that "trapper hate" is an extremely recent and maybe misguided approach to the game. Sableye+Dugtrio is quite strong, but there isn't an objective measurement to really say it's Dugtrio that's overperforming. We've survived ADV where Dugtrio was in an even better position and nobody even bats an eye. On the other hand, I'm sure there's a number of you that are looking at this thread and would ban Dugtrio even if we got Sableye out of the way first. The point I'm trying to make here is that I don't really think that a lot of the Sab or Duggy ban talk is being very objective, and is mostly down to discussion between pro players about what types of games pro players do and do not enjoy playing. There's a good amount of statistics we can look at that we can really use to create an argument very much bound in realism, and most people tend to ignore it for anecdotal discussion. I'm pretty tired and I went and re-edited this post a few times before submitting, so I might've had some repeat phrases in there or something, but I'll cut it down into a tl;dr: We're not far enough into the metagame to really make a call yet. However, current evidence implies heavily that Dugtrio isn't inherently broken, especially when compared to previous metagames, and likely not the Pokemon at fault if stall becomes an issue in the future. P.S. Less subjectivity, more objectivity.