Ladder STABmons [OMotM November]

Josh

=P
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I'd argue Mega Altaria is the most broken thing stabmons has ever held. Boomburst and pixispeed with much higher base offenses than sylveon and while porygon z is stronger it doesn't have the ability to 1v1 literally 99% of the metagame with the right set which malt could. The best checks were like mvenu and gengar, the former of which dropped to dragon ascent and the latter dropped to Boomburst + espeed. But that's not all; mega alt is also WAY bulkier than diggs and porygonz plus it boosted it's own speed along with its attack via dragon dance so fakespeeders couldn't revenge it, and it can always stomach a bullet punch and smack the steel back with eq or fire blast. Dd Roost sets were good, fakespeed revenge killer sets were good, special sets were good, obviously mixed was great, support with pixispin was cool, Mega alt had a multitude of sets that were ALL good. If you said this post could mostly apply to porygon and diggs you'd be right, but there's 2 major differences: malt was attacking with a type that doesn't have immunities, and the bigger one: major defensive utility. Malt could switch in on huge portion of the metagame, including keldeo, both zards, serp, etc. The combination of its offensive might and defensive capabilities make me question why we ever thought it was OK for the tier, shoutout to that time when it was just spam malt and beat opposing malt
 
I think we should reserve our judgment of what should be unbanned until we see what the initial OU banlist looks like. If stuff like DeoN and Skymin are running around, then freeing the megas makes some sense.

However, I'm strongly of the opinion that the current item bans should stay in the initial banlist. Mega Metagross, Altaria, and Aerodactyl are completely absurd as they all 2HKO every relevant Pokémon in existence without sacrificing speed, bulk, or priority. It's also not clear to me that anything that's about to be released will help check any of them, since they don't need priority or status to function. Also razor claw/kings rock is purely uncompetitive and should stay banned regardless.

I think freeing the banned Pokémon and quickbanning any of them that are still dumb is prudent.

Sleep seems like it's getting a nerf, so I don't see any reason not to retest those moves for a short time.

Also there's no reason that this should happen until SuMo actually comes out (as opposed to right now like you said in your post).
 

AquaticPanic

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Sleep seems like it's getting a nerf, so I don't see any reason not to retest those moves for a short time.
I wanna remember that Paralyzis is having a nerf too as well as Confusion. We might think about Chatter if the nerf is relevant enough to not be as annoying
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
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I'm sure whatever we decide now will have to be recalibrated when Sun and Moon actually come out. I'm in favor of a more open banlist, especially with regards to things that were broken this generation rather than uncompetitive. You never know what mon will get a new check until we actually see all the changes that Sun and Moon bring.

Most moves will be just as broken I'm sure. Razor Fang will be just as uncompetitive except a bit weaker because Water Shuriken is special and coming off of Cloyster's somewhat weaker attack stat (not to mention Cloyster has to go mixed if it wants to abuse Skill Link... Cloyster is gonna suck next gen).

We have to start with something. We can always retest things if they're weird

He said when SM comes out.
smh one liner
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Ya I also agree to the notion that all banned moves should remain banned due to no evidence leaning to any of them being nerfed in SuMo so far, so there effects on the meta would relatively be the same from what we know so far. I would also like to stress that we really should consider unbanning all the banned mons due to the monsbeing affected more by the SuMo shifts then the moves. If we need to ban certain threats in like a week or so then so be it, but we test at least in the beginning.

Also to keep this topic going my Top 5 Titans of STABmons would be as followed:

#1)
: Mega Altaria was an absolute menace when it was first introduced in ORAS and again in the December 2015 transition. It could attack ridiculously hard from both sides of the attacking spectrum and was able tro abuse the not yet banned moves such as Shell Smash and Belly Drum to further enhance its volality. Most teams in the end relied on the Altaria matchup, where the first player who lost theirs would often lose the match.

#2)
: Diggersby was hands down the strongest revenge killer that STABmons ever had thanks to Huge Power FakeSpeed denting holes in Offense and Balance alike. It also shared this Normal typing with a Ground typing that complimented it very well when facing Steel and Rock types who would otherwise be able to switch into FakeSpeed. Diggersby also could setup quite easily with Swords Dance and the unbanned Belly Drum to really negate any possible checks/counters really.

#3)
: I place Sylveon this high as it is so splashable on a variety of teams and could perform numerous roles extremely well. It has the luxury of abusing Pixi FakeSpeed and the option to also go mixed with powerful Boomburst as well. It could be used as a Cleric, Sweeper (when it had acess to Shell Smash at the time, although it still could run a decent Swords Dance set) and be a wallbreaker. Sylveon coul really be placed on any team rn and is why it such an influential mon imo.

#4)
: Another controversial suspect, Thundurus-I was notorious for destroying many stall and balance build a like with its powerful STAB moves in conjunction with Prankster Taunt or Nasty Plot. It also was able to run a good Bulk Up Physical sweeper set as well which also caught special walls coming into it by surprise. It was a top mon for such a long time until it got rightfully banned which is why I can see it at #4.

#5)
: Mega Scizor was a complete monster when it had access to Shift Gear, turning it to arguably the best bulky setup sweeper that STABmons ever had. Now, it could still run a very good Swords Dance set as it can abuse Gear Grind which becomes very powerful after Technician and could setup quite easily due to its great defensive typing.
So what are your'e guys top 5 lists? Am really interested specially since Gen 6 is practically over.
 

Josh

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Fun thing I noticed: Gengar was one of the best answers to a ton of the scariest threats we've had. Porygon-Z, Mega Altaria, Diggersby (and actually beat it post bdrum !), sylveon, etc.

Also yea sm ou should be our initial ban list and we can work from there.
 
"due to no evidence" makes no sense. there's no evidence boomburst will be 140 bp; it's just an assumption. any move could change, though unlikely, is still possible. perhaps the moves will be nerfed but how can we know if they're broken w nerfs if they're banned?
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
"due to no evidence" makes no sense. there's no evidence boomburst will be 140 bp; it's just an assumption. any move could change, though unlikely, is still possible. perhaps the moves will be nerfed but how can we know if they're broken w nerfs if they're banned?
yeah, unfixable is right. meta shifts, bst changes, and mechanic changes can all be affected on how every move works. so idk how you can leave those moves banned. especially since stabmons revolves around moves. unless you can prove without a doubt these moves cannot be logically nerfed to be manageable(for example, imposter/wonder guard in AAA) then there is no reason to ban them. geomancy could have a turn-nerf, or have more walls to tank fairy coverage. shell smash could boost the drops to -2, and dark void could be nerfed to 60 accuracy** (oops)
 
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EV

Banned deucer.
I wouldn't consider a 60 BP, 80% accurate sleep move a nerf in the slightest. :pimp:

Anyway, I've shared my opinion with the council. I can see beta's reasons for keeping moves banned, but I recommend a full reset (to Gen 7 OU [STABmons is coded to inherit the OU banlist per its premise]) and to let the ladder run wild for a week or so. Then start quick banning. I'd focus on one category first, Moves, which was the core banning philosophy we adapted this gen after the mechanics reset. Once the main offenders are out, start banning Mons/mega stones. Let the dust settle for another week and then try to balance what's left. You'll have to act quickly and use the limited time you have while on the OMotM ladder to get things as close to ideal as possible, as balancing a non-ladder metagame will be very difficult.
 

AquaticPanic

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Well, since other people are also doing this, here are my top 5 of each region:
#5 - Mega Blastoise
Reason is pretty simple: Origin Pulse is simply spammable. Also has a decent bulk to take some hits.

#4 - Mega Pidgeot
Sing with No Guard is wonderful. Work Up is a meh to nice setup move and Boomburst is Boomburst. Oblivon Wing has more utility then Hurricane, but it depends on you if you prefer higher damage and a okay chance to confuse or still good damage and recovery.

#3 - Cloyster
Gains an actual STAB move to go with Skill Link and has priority that overall works better then Ice Shard because it hits five times.

#2 - Mega Charizard (Both)
Y gains access to Oblivon Wing, Hurricane, Searing Shot and Fiery dance which are all nice STABs, while X gains Tough Claws V-Create

#1 - Aerodactyl
Think of a mon with 105 attack, 130 speed, Rock Head and access to both STAB Brave Bird and STAB Head Smash. That's Aerodactyl in STABmons

Machamp deserves a little mention for No Guard HJK, but that's about it

There aren't much mons I actually used from Gen 2. So, no #5

#4 - Mega Scizor
Gear Grind with Technician is all I needed. Shame Shift Gear was banned but eh

#3 - Tyranitar
Diamond Storm to buff defense (Ocasionally) and new Dark STABs such as Knock Off and Sucker Punch are really great aditions

#2 - Azumarill
While the changes are really small, you can now Recover the Belly Drum damage and use Water Shuriken over Aqua Jet

#1 - Ursaring
Good FakeSpeed user. Fake Out gives you one turn to activate Guts with a Flame Orb and the new priority makes up for it's speed stat (Well, it would if there weren't other faster Extreme Speed users)

#5 - Crawdaunt
Water Shuriken and Sucker Punch with Adaptability? yes plz

#4 - Ninjask
Speed Boost and a Flying STAB makes it... usable. Still has some problems tho

#3 - Swellow
Both Scrappy and Guts can be used here with Fakespeed tho the attack is definetly inferior when compared to other fakespeeders

#2 - Mega Camerupt
Blue Flare and maybe even Blades.

#1 - Sableye
Ah... Prankster is simply a great ability to have in it. Parting Shot and Topsy Turvy are annoying, and maybe even Curse can be used to stop a sweeper forcing it to either die or switch out

#5 - Infernape
Has a better Special pool to use but that's kind of it

#4 - Staraptor
Another Fakespeed user, but this time it can also use Dragon Ascent and get the hell outta there with U-Turn, and can do a thing most birds can't: Close Combat the Heatrans and Tyranitars

#3 - Yanmega
Tail Glow with Speed Boost and Oblivon Wing is good. Like, a lot.

#2 - Mega Lopunny
Ever played STABmons? Then you know Mega Lopunny for sure.

#1 - Togekiss
Hurricane has 60% confusion chance and Moonblast has 60% chance of lowering foe's Sp. A by one point. Togekiss is more annoying then it was before.

Honrable Mention to Croagunk. I personally like the idea of Coil+Gunk Shot+HJK, tho it has trouble finding time to set up (One is all it needs). Also to Heatran because it's Heatran

#5 - Emboar
Reckless High Jump Kich, as well as okay bulk and Head Smash to use against burds when it needs to are all good things, tho it has trouble because of Flying types in general

#4 - Jellicent
Does the same thing it does in OU: Checks Keldeo. Doesn't have much benefits from the meta itslef but being able to stop a top-tier thread is worth a spot on your team

#3 - Landorus-T
Oh... The sweet taste of a Flying STAB and being able to U-Turn whenever you use Dragon Ascent... Blades is a really good move too.

#2 - Braviary
One of my favorite FakeSpeeders. Has a good HP, Defiant is a great ability to have on a meta where lots of teams have Lando-T. Can also use Swords Dance, Superpower, Roost and Dragon Ascent

#1 - Keldeo
Ahhh... This guy. It can do wonders with things like Water Spout and Steam Eruption. I won't say much about this because it's pretty common and you probably already know what it does

Some honrable mentions to Terrakion for having now Mach Punch and HJK, Excadrill for new Steel Stabs such as Bullet Punch and Gear Grind and perhaps Samurott for making up for it's speed tier with Water Shuriken (Screw everything, it's a Ninja Samurai Sea-Lion Otter)

#5 - Malamar
Psycho Boost Contrary is kinda nice tho stats are kind of a let down

#4 - Hawlucha
White Herb Dragon Ascent Unburden is a nice thing.

#3 - Clawitzer
Same reason as Mega Blastoise, but can run Specs or LO

#2 - Talonflame
V-Create's Speed Drop is rather insignificant when you have Priority Dragon Ascent. You also have Judgement with whatever type you want (Fighting probably)

#1 - Sylveon
Rule number one when creating a metagame: Pixilate Boomburst. Judgement (Fighting probably) to deal with types it has trouble touching is a good option and FakeSpeed is usable even with it's meh attack stat
 
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the council has decided that upon SuMo's release the banlist will be changed to the initial gen 7 OU banlist. This means popular mons such as Porygon-z, Thundurus, and Kyurem-Black will now be available again, as well as mega metagross and mega Altaria. However, the moves that are banned will remain banned.
I feel like moves should also be unbanned alongside the Pokemon, unless the moves are so broken that there's no point in unbanning them.
 
#1 - Sylveon
Rule number one when creating a metagame: Pixilate Boomburst. Judgement (Fighting probably) to deal with types it has trouble touching is a good option and FakeSpeed is usable even with it's meh attack stat
Why would you use Fighting-type Judgment? Literally every type that resists Fairy is weak to Ground, and for the few Pokémon that resist Fairy and are immune to Ground (Skarmory, Charizard/Mega Charizard Y, Talonflame, Moltres, Crobat, Bronzong, Rotom-Heat, Weezing, and Gengar), Fighting-type Judgment still does less than Boomburst. The only time I can see Fighting coming in handy is against Air Balloon Heatran.

Edit: expanded list to include all legal fully-evolved flying/levitating Pokémon that resist Fairy
 
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Why would you use Fighting-type Judgment? Literally every type that resists Fairy is weak to Ground, and for the few Pokémon that resist Fairy and are immune to Ground (Skarmory, Mega Charizard Y, Talonflame, Weezing, and Gengar are the only ones I can think of), Fighting-type Judgment still does less than Boomburst. The only time I can see Fighting coming in handy is against Air Balloon Heatran.
I'd mostly agree with this. Fighting does also admittedly hit Bouffalant and Ferrothorn as well, but it seems distinctly suboptimal (I'd even suggest Flying for Amoongus, Shedinja and MVenu before fighting)
 
Doesn't matter if its literal type coverage when there's only a couple relevant checks to it. Ferrothorn, Heatran, Mega Venusaur, Jirachi ect. Running fighting lets you nail the three former and most common. And don't run flying lol. If you really want a hard to handle Sylveon set run specs. Boomburst, Hp Ground, Baton Pass and Psyshock - excellent wallbreaker
 

Sylveon.

Penny saved is still a fucking penny
Doesn't matter if its literal type coverage when there's only a couple relevant checks to it. Ferrothorn, Heatran, Mega Venusaur, Jirachi ect. Running fighting lets you nail the three former and most common. And don't run flying lol. If you really want a hard to handle Sylveon set run specs. Boomburst, Hp Ground, Baton Pass and Psyshock - excellent wallbreaker
Actually he is correct, though fakespeed is more useful generally, specs lets you use boomburst much more easily without thinking of switch-ins as you only need hp ground to nail heatran, as with specs boomburst, sylvi kind of
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 165-195 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Shits on ferro with boomburst lol.
 
Doesn't matter if its literal type coverage when there's only a couple relevant checks to it. Ferrothorn, Heatran, Mega Venusaur, Jirachi ect. Running fighting lets you nail the three former and most common. And don't run flying lol. If you really want a hard to handle Sylveon set run specs. Boomburst, Hp Ground, Baton Pass and Psyshock - excellent wallbreaker
Fighting nails only two of those? There's also Chansey, Mega Scizor, Screens keys, and Specdef Amoongus (only good set in stabmons tbh). Fighting nails 2 but not that well for one of them, while ground nails 3 including one of those two and flying hits two as well.

The only time you want fighting is to stop both Heatran and Ferrothorn from switching in without hidden power+judgment and while maintaining the ability to switch moves, as otherwise the specs+HP ground set you mentioned does the same thing, but better. You are way overselling fighting.

E: Darksylvion the ninja
 
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AquaticPanic

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Well, I struggle a lot when chosing between Fighting and Ground but let's be honest, there are no Poison types at all in STABmons (And even then, you have Psyshock). Fighting lets you hit some things and Ground destroys Heatran, but then tehre's Air Baloon. It's a pretty hard choice imo. But either way, I don't play STABmons that much
 

Sylveon.

Penny saved is still a fucking penny
Well, I struggle a lot when chosing between Fighting and Ground but let's be honest, there are no Poison types at all in STABmons (And even then, you have Psyshock). Fighting lets you hit some things and Ground destroys Heatran, but then tehre's Air Baloon. It's a pretty hard choice imo. But either way, I don't play STABmons that much
Erm...actually the thing with fighting is though it provides much better coverage but it is still quite weak, I mean sylveon relies on 4x super-effective hits to get it's KOs, though something I have been trying out is running hp ground and fire type judgement or vice versa(preferably hp fire+ ground type judgement as both together, allow it to nab ferro while heatran gets tonked by judgement), which works as a sick lure allowing sylveon to basically nab it's two common counters preferably on the switch. Psyshock is redundant anyways in STABmons.
 
Personally if I were to use a Sylveon I'd prefer Earth Plate due to the prevelance of Heatran. OHKOing that on the switch-in means for more Boomburst spam if the enemy's Fairy checks are dwindling. Subuptimal damage on Ferro is a pain but at least you hit Poison-types ig

Also to the above list of best Pokemon per Generation, I'd certainly rate Lopunny higher than Togekiss. In my experience Lopunny plagues the ladder; you can't go 3 games without seeing it at least once. On the other hand, I've yet to encounter a Togekiss and although I don't dispute its potential power with Serene Grace, Lopunny's destructive stats, typing and phenomenal movepool Normal-type gifts it are just so overwhelming
 

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