Metagame STABmons

I need proof. I need prof that Mega Steelix is NOT the ONLY POKEMON that does not die to two Tapu Koko's hits. Yesterday i said to myself 'oh yeah, Koko's getting banned soon, i can stop using Mega Steelix' and now you tell me that i still MUST run MSteelix to stop that crap? I wanted to change it! I tried a few calcs and NOTHING survives two hits. And i'm talking about 252 hp/252+def pokemon. No, bulky grass are NOT the answer. Brave Bird anyone? -.-
I'm so disappointed and furious and sad. If you guys had no problems using other pokemon, maybe your opponents played their koko like noobs like me. (I have never found something that was not Bolt Strike (Fusion Bolt)/Play Rough/Brave Bird/U-Turn With either band or scarf. Literally never.)

Tl;Dr: I need calcs that show me EVERY SINGLE POKEMON that can take TWO hits form Tapu Koko. So at least i know how restrained my process of tembuilding must be. I will be forever grateful.

I don't even care if i get warned or banned for this post, or if everyone says that i'm a noob and a stupid person because I failed to find the right pokemon. I'm THAT sad of Koko not getting banned.
 
I need proof. I need prof that Mega Steelix is NOT the ONLY POKEMON that does not die to two Tapu Koko's hits. Yesterday i said to myself 'oh yeah, Koko's getting banned soon, i can stop using Mega Steelix' and now you tell me that i still MUST run MSteelix to stop that crap? I wanted to change it! I tried a few calcs and NOTHING survives two hits. And i'm talking about 252 hp/252+def pokemon. No, bulky grass are NOT the answer. Brave Bird anyone? -.-
I'm so disappointed and furious and sad. If you guys had no problems using other pokemon, maybe your opponents played their koko like noobs like me. (I have never found something that was not Bolt Strike (Fusion Bolt)/Play Rough/Brave Bird/U-Turn With either band or scarf. Literally never.)

Tl;Dr: I need calcs that show me EVERY SINGLE POKEMON that can take TWO hits form Tapu Koko. So at least i know how restrained my process of tembuilding must be. I will be forever grateful.

I don't even care if i get warned or banned for this post, or if everyone says that i'm a noob and a stupid person because I failed to find the right pokemon. I'm THAT sad of Koko not getting banned.
252 Atk Choice Band Tapu Koko Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn in Electric Terrain: 147-173 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


(Credit to the don Verlisify for this image)
 

Dunfan

formerly Dunsparce Fanboy
252 Atk Choice Band Tapu Koko Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn in Electric Terrain: 147-173 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


(Credit to the don Verlisify for this image)

In addition to this :

Ferrothorn can actually use King's Shield with Leftovers to wall even the Z-Mirror Move variant of Koko... on switch-in.
+2 252+ Atk Tapu Koko Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn in Electric Terrain: 214-252 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tapu Koko Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn in Electric Terrain: 107-126 (30.3 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
(note that i gave Tapu Koko an Adamant Nature as demonstration, i could make it Jolly or give more defense EVs to Ferrothorn)

Once that's done, Ferrothorn can start Strenght Sapping Tapu Koko...
If the Tapu Koko has 252 Atk EVs and nature neutral to Atk, then a 252 HP Ferrothorn will heal 93.4659091% of it's HP after a single Strenght Sap. (and if Koko has an nature raising Atk, then Ferrothorn is fully healed)

Don't believe me ? Well then, look at this : http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-601124157
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
I need proof. I need prof that Mega Steelix is NOT the ONLY POKEMON that does not die to two Tapu Koko's hits. Yesterday i said to myself 'oh yeah, Koko's getting banned soon, i can stop using Mega Steelix' and now you tell me that i still MUST run MSteelix to stop that crap? I wanted to change it! I tried a few calcs and NOTHING survives two hits. And i'm talking about 252 hp/252+def pokemon. No, bulky grass are NOT the answer. Brave Bird anyone? -.-
I'm so disappointed and furious and sad. If you guys had no problems using other pokemon, maybe your opponents played their koko like noobs like me. (I have never found something that was not Bolt Strike (Fusion Bolt)/Play Rough/Brave Bird/U-Turn With either band or scarf. Literally never.)

Tl;Dr: I need calcs that show me EVERY SINGLE POKEMON that can take TWO hits form Tapu Koko. So at least i know how restrained my process of tembuilding must be. I will be forever grateful.

I don't even care if i get warned or banned for this post, or if everyone says that i'm a noob and a stupid person because I failed to find the right pokemon. I'm THAT sad of Koko not getting banned.
I understand ur frustration since the vote did not occur the way you had wanted to, but I think just by reading some of the reasoning from the rotating and permanent council members as to why they had voted no ban would alleviate some of your concern. Mega Steelix is not the sole counter to Tapu Koko, other great examples include but are not limited to Rotom-H, Lightning Rod Alolan Marowak, Swampert (and it's Mega), Rhyperior, defensive Rotom-C, etc....

While Tapu Koko can be hard to check, I still believe it is completely manageable through proper teambuilding. Don't worry.
 
Well, after i finish my exam (two days) i'll try some 252/252+ calcs with those pokemon too. Why does Ferro have only 88 def? What do those spdef evs help it check?
Last question, Rotom-C is? Fan is F, Frost is Fr(?), Heat is H, Mow is M and Wash is W, i suppose.
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
Here it is! Sorry for the delay.


version 1.2
Suspect Results


Thanks to all the participants in the forum, the suspect tours, and in the rotating council. Overall, I think this suspect went smoothly, even if some people consider our methods too fast, or even (lol) dictatorial. (They shall not be named.) Anywho, here we go:


Results:


Silvally-Ghost - BANNED 8-0-0

Kyurem-Black - BANNED 6-1-1

Tapu Koko - NOT BANNED 2-6-0

Reasonings:








(due to his travel obligations, betathunder was not able to provide reasonings)

Please be patient while I get the ladder updated.
Wait did I read this right... Jeran voted to ban Silvally?!? Well that comes as a complete surprise.

I still think Koko is broken. Aslowlawak can't do more than check it, it dies to band sets using Brave Bird and I've found Ferro and Steelix disappointing options as far as hard counters go.
-Rotom-H dies to banded Bolt Strike on switch in. (252 Atk Choice Band Tapu Koko Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Heat: 150-177 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)
-Rotom-C dies to banded Play Rough on switch in if rocks are in place (252 Atk Choice Band Tapu Koko Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Mow: 139-165 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)
-Grass Knot kills Rhydon / Rhyperior (0 SpA Tapu Koko Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 255-303 (58.7 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)
-Grass Knot kills Swampert (0 SpA Tapu Koko Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert-Mega: 188-224 (46.5 - 55.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock)

No Koko can't kill all of it's checks at once, but saying it has a bunch of counters that work no matter what just isn't right. All it needs is Stealth Rock and its movepool does the rest. Anyway. /salt

Other than that yay!
 
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EV

Banned deucer.
The VR post has been updated! {HERE} Please help us keep it organized by posting your thoughts in the thread. Also, help us rank more of the Silvally forms.

The Frontier has been updated! {HERE} Akashi has joined as Brain #5. Do you have what it takes to win the Frontier Challenge?
 
First of all, Tapu Koko has 2 set :

Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bolt Strike
- Play Rough
- U-turn
- Brave Bird / HP Ice

or

Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Fleur Cannon
- Hidden Power [Ice]

The physical set is the most present thanks to better STAB and 115 in ATT. ( If we use a Choice Item, we can more easily counter him with some anticipation ).

Tapu Koko is a excellent pokemon (that's why he's S) who can 2HKO any pokemon without a electric resistance with Bolt Strike.
But a lot of pokemon can tank him :

Let's make a list of pokemon who can stall the physical version with HP ice or Brave Bird:

* Ferrothorn|
252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn in Electric Terrain: 139-164 (39.4 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery)
* Excadrill|
252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 144-172 (33.9 - 40.5%) -- 44.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
*M-Steelix or Steelix|
4 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 128 SpD Steelix: 65-77 (18.4 - 21.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
* M-Swampert and Swampert|
252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Play Rough vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 149-177 (37.1 - 44.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
* Rhydon|
4 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 94-112 (22.7 - 27%) -- 31.5% chance to 4HKO
*Rhyperior|
252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 153-183 (35.3 - 42.2%) -- 86.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Koko has few Hard-Checks, but that's enough.

Let's make a list of pokemon who can stall the physical version with Brave Bird:
* LANDORUS-T|
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 99-118 (25.9 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Let's make a list of pokemon who can stall the physical version with HP ice:
* M-Venusaur|
252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Venusaur-Mega in Electric Terrain: 143-169 (39.3 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
* Tangrowth|
4 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 48 SpD Tangrowth: 174-205 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
* Tapu Fini|
252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Bulu: 138-164 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- 96.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
* Shedinja|



We can see that Koko has a lot of checks. (And when we scout the different move of Koko with Protect or Ditto, we can easily counter him)

Tapu Koko is the definition of an excellent pokemon in this tier. And like every good pokemon, he's change the metagame. And now, he's become a threat like an other thanks to all his checks.

Koko doesn't deserve the ban.

ps: Ditto and Shedinja deserve to be in Viability Rankings.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
I think we should do a suspect on sleeping moves in general. It's honestly complete bullshit that pokemon like Mega Pidgeot, Mega Lopunny and Rotom can just put their checks to sleep in one turn. Now you can say "B-b-but Tapu Koko!". Well, what if your foe takes out Koko? Then what? And sure, maybe Spore can be tolerated. After all, bulky Grass Pokemon are quite common. But what about Sing and Lovely Kiss? Name one OU-viable Pokemon besides Koko that can absorb one. And no, Safety Goggles don't work against these moves, I checked.
 
Just some VR-related things (and one non-VR related thing) I can put out there.


- A lack of Silvally-Fighting seems odd. A lot of Ghostvally teams can shift straight over to this slightly worse but similar form, with a worse defensive typing but gains STAB onto Secret Sword and Close Combat. I've run a few sets on some testing alts and playing with people, and Coil Silvally-Fighting seems to be one of the better ones. Quiver Dance+Spore and DoubleDance (Special and Physical) also are definitely usable and alright replacements for Ghostvally. I won't bother saying where it should go, since that should be something more well informed people should do. I'm just some shitposter, lol

Silvally-Fighting @ Fighting Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Close Combat / Hammer Arm / Drain Punch
- Spectral Thief
- Shore Up
- Coil


- Gengar looks incredibly odd where it's placed. Almost everything else where it is placed makes sense, and I've seen every single one of them do work. Mawile hits like a truck with Sunsteel + Bullet Punch and can even run a silly Autotomize set. Scizor-Mega clicks Gear Grind and OHKOs Landorus-Therian after a SD (WHAT). But... What does Gengar even do? I've tried it a few times with Z-purify and Moongeist + Focus Blast with Sash, but neither really does anything. If you want a Z-Purify mon, Nihilego does a far better job with better overall coverage, actual bulk to set up with, and generally lures things in such as Lando/Zyg that don't expect an OHKO and actually want to switch in then get HP Ice'd. I feel it should be lower, but I just haven't ever seen anyone else use it ngl.


Maybe you guys could just post a list of stuff you guys are adding to the VR and go mention they are discussion topics? Stuff like the OU/UU forums go ahead and do that for their VR rankings, and it gives people something to immediately talk about. Like, for here as just a theory, 'Silvally-Fighting: Unranked -> ???' or smthing. That also gives me stuff to build around since i get bored and have to ask people for things, which never ends well.




Last thing is I just want to say how amazing Venusaur-Mega is. Koko doesn't OHKO with Brave Bird without Mirror Move, if it tries Z-Mirror with Venusaur in he can just Clear Smog it away, Strength Sap heals nearly all of its HP (363 healing 329 HP from Sap), and Seed Flare does great damage versus almost any switchin. It also is a good method for cockblocking Mawile-Mega with Spore + Strength Sap, Gyarados w/o Beak Blast or Dragon Ascent, Garchomp, Zygarde, and a multitude of Fakespeed mons which rely on frail mons to two-hit. But it's already perfectly placed on the VR, so...

Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Clear Smog
- Strength Sap
- Spore

still standing by Spore/Lovely Kiss should be looked at :x
 
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Tapu Fini. Or you could carry a dedicated Sleep Talker or Bouncer or Vital Spirit or a cleric or a million other anti-sleep options. Normals and Grass-types are the only two types that have reliable sleep (no No Guard Psychic-types last I checked), and 98% of the time Normals are FakeSpeed (Lopunny only gets away with LK thanks to statistically perfect coverage).

Was going to originally just post a picture of Fini and call it good, but I'm both at work and didn't want to do the one-liner shit that's so heavily frowned upon.
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
First of all, Tapu Koko has 2 set :

Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bolt Strike
- Play Rough
- U-turn
- Brave Bird / HP Ice

or

Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Fleur Cannon
- Hidden Power [Ice]

The physical set is the most present thanks to better STAB and 115 in ATT. ( If we use a Choice Item, we can more easily counter him with some anticipation ).

Tapu Koko is a excellent pokemon (that's why he's S) who can 2HKO any pokemon without a electric resistance with Bolt Strike.
But a lot of pokemon can tank him :

Let's make a list of pokemon who can stall the physical version with HP ice or Brave Bird:

* Ferrothorn|
252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn in Electric Terrain: 139-164 (39.4 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery)
* Excadrill|
252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 144-172 (33.9 - 40.5%) -- 44.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
*M-Steelix or Steelix|
4 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 128 SpD Steelix: 65-77 (18.4 - 21.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
* M-Swampert and Swampert|
252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Play Rough vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 149-177 (37.1 - 44.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
* Rhydon|
4 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 94-112 (22.7 - 27%) -- 31.5% chance to 4HKO
*Rhyperior|
252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 153-183 (35.3 - 42.2%) -- 86.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Koko has few Hard-Checks, but that's enough.

Let's make a list of pokemon who can stall the physical version with Brave Bird:
* LANDORUS-T|
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 99-118 (25.9 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Let's make a list of pokemon who can stall the physical version with HP ice:
* M-Venusaur|
252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Venusaur-Mega in Electric Terrain: 143-169 (39.3 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
* Tangrowth|
4 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 48 SpD Tangrowth: 174-205 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
* Tapu Fini|
252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Bulu: 138-164 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- 96.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
* Shedinja|

We can see that Koko has a lot of checks. (And when we scout the different move of Koko with Protect or Ditto, we can easily counter him)

Tapu Koko is the definition of an excellent pokemon in this tier. And like every good pokemon, he's change the metagame. And now, he's become a threat like an other thanks to all his checks.

Koko doesn't deserve the ban.

ps: Ditto and Shedinja deserve to be in Viability Rankings.
These are NOT the only 2 Koko sets. Band, Scarf, Specs, Flynium Z, Magnet, Mixed LO, Taunt etc. are all viable sets. Reducing Koko's sets run to 2 Life Orb sets is just silly.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Tapu Fini. Or you could carry a dedicated Sleep Talker or Bouncer or Vital Spirit or a cleric or a million other anti-sleep options. Normals and Grass-types are the only two types that have reliable sleep (no No Guard Psychic-types last I checked), and 98% of the time Normals are FakeSpeed (Lopunny only gets away with LK thanks to statistically perfect coverage).

Was going to originally just post a picture of Fini and call it good, but I'm both at work and didn't want to do the one-liner shit that's so heavily frowned upon.
Ok, will stop being whiny little babby. Thank
 

EV

Banned deucer.
So, let's talk about Sleep.



"I assume they have all the usual vices, besides those they've invented for themselves."

When we think about Sleep, what do we think about? A volatile status. An incapacitated foe. STABmons has many sleep abusers - any Grass-type must be assumed to be carrying Spore, any Normal can whip out a Lovely Kiss (and she probably won't even offer to buy you dinner, first!). Then there are the edge cases: No Guard Sing Mega Pidgeot, all the Rotoms having access to Spore via their lawnmower form, and all the Eeveelutions earning Lovely Kiss via their predecessor.

So how is it utilized? And what can you do to stop it?

"My, my, my! Such a lot of guns around town and so few brains! You know, you're the second guy I've met today that seems to think a gat in the hand means the world by the tail."

Grass Pokemon, by virtue of being Grass, are immune to Spore. A pair of Safety Goggles can mimic this, as can Overcoat. Soundproof blocks Sing. Magic Bounce stops it all. Sleep Talk can be used by anything, but takes the game of chance and turns it into a roulette of uncertainty. Guts can block it - if the Guts user is already suffering. A faster Taunt diffuses the gun before they can even pull the trigger. And there's the Sleep Clause, Sleep's worst enemy.

But what do you think? How would you rank the biggest Sleepers and biggest Sleep counters? Is the nightmare really as bad as they say, or is it just a case of restlessness? Is it a metagame defining force, or just another element to the game you have to be aware of? Share your thoughts and use examples.


"You've forgotten one thing - me."

"What's wrong with you?"
"Nothing you can't fix."
 
These are NOT the only 2 Koko sets. Band, Scarf, Specs, Flynium Z, Magnet, Mixed LO, Taunt etc. are all viable sets. Reducing Koko's sets run to 2 Life Orb sets is just silly.
This isn't my set, but this is the coolest Tapu Koko I've seen. Circumvents a lot of its checks and gave my stall team quite a bit of trouble, although I was able to pull through in the end.


Tapu Koko @ Fairium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fleur Cannon
- Bolt Strike
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Fire]

I'm just guessing at the EVs and nature, but based on the damage, it was probably something like this. Z-Fleur Cannon heavily dents or outright kills a lot of what you'd normally use HP Ice and Grass Knot for, while Bolt Strike still hits incredibly hard with less Attack investment, 2HKOing Chansey most of the time. This set serves a similar role to V-Create Zard-Y, hitting hard from both sides of the damage spectrum by relying on an ambient damage boost (Drought, Electric Surge) over full investment. Speaking of which, this set was paired with Zard-Y, allowing HP Fire to KO standard Ferrothorn after some prior damage.

On the topic of VR rankings, these are the things I've had success with, and I think they deserve ranks:

Mega Sableye
: Controversial opinion, but I think M-Sab should minimum share a rank with regular Sableye, honestly rank above it. M-Sab was kind of frowned upon Gen 6 in STABmons because Prankster Dark Void was so vital to maintain, but that's no longer the case. What people need to understand is you never need to Mega if you don't need to, but having a button you can press whenever you want which doubles your bulk and gives you Magic Bounce is better than Leftovers, in my opinion. With Magic Bounce and great bulk, M-Sab is the free-est switch-in for Chansey ever, and one of the best spin-blockers, period. You also check about 80% of all Silvally sets I've encountered, especially with Spectral Thief, of which Mega Sableye might just be the best user. If you just want something that Parting Shots around all day, or your Mega slot is taken already, regular Sableye is fine, but discounting its Mega is criminal. B to A-

Bewear: I saw someone using Circle Throw Bewear on the ladder and was proud. You can scroll back a page to see me gush about Bewear a bit, but I've seen this gain popularity and for good reason, not just on stall. With 120 Attack, 120 HP and Fluffy, Bewear can serve as a Fake-Speeder that checks opposing Fake-Speeders, or a bulky setup E-speeder with SD or BU. Recovery is a god-send, and any set offensive or defensive should run Leftovers + Recover to continue walling nearly every physical attacker in the game. The defensive set especially is legitimately one of the only safe switch-ins for all forms of Tyranitar, even DD Mega and Band. Its biggest downside is having no good answers for Ghosts outside of Shadow Claw, but I think its utility more than makes up for that. Honestly I think Bewear is a top 5 Normal type in an OM dominated by them, but I think it has a lot of unexplored potential, so I'd rank conservatively for the time being, but keep your eyes on it! B- to B+

Chandelure: Super underrated, and badly misused (all I see are shitty Scarf sets). I'll post this team later, but I run Z-Trick or Treat Chandelure and it either sweeps or breaks enough kneecaps for something else to finish the job. Blue Flare/Moongeist Beam/HP Ground is all you need blow back most everything but Tyranitar and Chansey, especially given the bonus effect of ToT, where all targets except Normals suddenly become much weaker to Moongeist Beam. You outspeed Tapu Koko at +1, and your Ghost typing allows you to deflect most priority. Moongeist is brutal in its own right, OHKOing Sturdy Pokemon and Mimikyu through Disguise, and Ghostium-Z gives the option gives the option of a 180 bp move if you think a full sweep wouldn't be beneficial. Flash Fire is also nice in a pinch, allowing you to setup on Zard-Y even if it does a ton with Oblivion Wing. Took a hit thanks to Mega Lopunny's release, but Chandy is a complete sleeper in the tier and hopefully ranking it would give more exposure. B- to B+

Tsareena: Ok, Tsareena might seem like a meme that I keep using for some reason, but I think it has a real niche in STABmons despite not gaining much outside of stronger STAB. Queenly Majesty + Scarf handily checks Tyranitar, Greninja, Snorlax, Diggersby, Ursaring, and more. Wood Hammer + High Jump Kick isn't the best coverage, but it's enough to OHKO all the targets I listed and quite a few more. With U-turn and Rapid Spin rounding out the set, Tsareena is an excellent asset for teams weak to priority and looking for a fool-proof way out. I've also used a defensive set with Strength Sap + Horn Leech, but I'd recommend sticking to Scarf. The greatest tragedy is that Scarf isn't enough to outpace Mega Lopunny, which is massive pain to offense and a real bummer to my Tsareena hype train. I still think its a really good mon, but it has some significant shortcomings in the current meta. C to B-

Mega Heracross
: Just started using this to better check Mega Lopunny, so I can't speak too much on it, but it's been super fun so far. First Impression + Mach Punch + filler is a great revenge killer for Greninja, Lopunny, etc. The damage output is insane unboosted, and your natural bulk is enough to take on many faster priority users with ease. Something neat is that because First Impression shares a priority bracket with Extreme Speed, you can run enough Speed to outpace whatever you need to and nab a surprise kill with your priority. Other options include Heal Order and SD, breaking through stall lacking Unaware Clefable. I'll report back as things develop, but a promising start. Needs more testing, but my gut says B- to A-

And speaking of Mega Lopunny, it may have just been released, but it's one of the best mons in the meta, no doubt. Screw this thing. A+
 
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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
So, let's talk about Sleep.



"I assume they have all the usual vices, besides those they've invented for themselves."

When we think about Sleep, what do we think about? A volatile status. An incapacitated foe. STABmons has many sleep abusers - any Grass-type must be assumed to be carrying Spore, any Normal can whip out a Lovely Kiss (and she probably won't even offer to buy you dinner, first!). Then there are the edge cases: No Guard Sing Mega Pidgeot, all the Rotoms having access to Spore via their lawnmower form, and all the Eeveelutions earning Lovely Kiss via their predecessor.

So how is it utilized? And what can you do to stop it?

"My, my, my! Such a lot of guns around town and so few brains! You know, you're the second guy I've met today that seems to think a gat in the hand means the world by the tail."

Grass Pokemon, by virtue of being Grass, are immune to Spore. A pair of Safety Goggles can mimic this, as can Overcoat. Soundproof blocks Sing. Magic Bounce stops it all. Sleep Talk can be used by anything, but takes the game of chance and turns it into a roulette of uncertainty. Guts can block it - if the Guts user is already suffering. A faster Taunt diffuses the gun before they can even pull the trigger. And there's the Sleep Clause, Sleep's worst enemy.

But what do you think? How would you rank the biggest Sleepers and biggest Sleep counters? Is the nightmare really as bad as they say, or is it just a case of restlessness? Is it a metagame defining force, or just another element to the game you have to be aware of? Share your thoughts and use examples.


"You've forgotten one thing - me."

"What's wrong with you?"
"Nothing you can't fix."
In my opinion, the problem isn't that there aren't lots of sleep counter-measures. The issue is that there aren't any good USERS of said counter-measures, or that they're niche. Let's go through the list:

Soundproof
No OU viable Pokemon have the Soundproof ability. The highest tier Pokemon with this ability is Kommo-o, who is only RU.

Insomnia
No OU viable Pokemon have the Insomnia ability. The highest tier Pokemon with this ability is Honchkrow, who is only RU. Besides, it has to sacrifice the far superior and more reliable Moxie for a situational ability that only helps against a couple of things.

Vital Spirit
Once again, no OU viable Pokemon have this ability. The highest tier Pokemon are Magmortar, Electivire and Lycanroc-Midnight, who sit in NU.

Overcoat
Now, there are some Pokemon that can work in OU with this ability. One of them is Forretress. Problem is, you need to sacrifice Sturdy, a far more useful and reliable ability. Another one of these Pokemon is Mandibuzz. This is the only case where Overcoat doesn't force you to miss out on a better ability. Also, remember: Overcoat only protects from Spore. You're still boned against Lovely Kiss and Mega Pidgeot's Sing.

Magic Bounce
There are two Pokemon that can work in OU with this ability. The first is Mega Sableye, which really only fits on Stall. The second is Espeon, who can actually work due to having a wide movepool, courtesy of the other Eeveelutions, as well as nice special attacking stats.

Safety Goggles
Similar issue as with Overcoat. First off, you need to sacrifice a better item like Life Orb, Rocky Helmet or Leftovers. Second of all, it only protects against Spore.

Bulky Grass Pokemon
Only protected from Spore.

Tapu Fini
While a good check, it's only one Pokemon. Doesn't appreciate Rotom or Grass types.

Tapu Koko
Best Sleep check there is, and yet it's STILL outsped and potentially KOed by Mega Lopunny.

All in all, that's only FOUR reliable, no-drawback checks to Sleep: Mega Sableye (only fits on stall), Tapu Koko (frail and outsped by one of the Pokemon it tries to check, as well as other offensive threats like Ash-Greninja, also can have terrain removed), Tapu Fini (Can have it's terrain removed as well as being weak to Rotom and Grass types) and Espeon (Viability is otherwise questionable compared to other Eeveelutions). Everything else listed either requires you to lose a better option for that Pokemon (Safety Goggles in exchange for a more reliable item, also Overcoat), or has no viable users of the technique (All Insomnia, Soundproof and Vital Spirit users suck).

Nope, still not convinced that Sleep is balanced.

EDIT: Nevermind, Espeon can't get moves that are the same types as the Eeveelutions. Now we're down to THREE Sleep counters.
 
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You're looking at Pokmeon in standard and trying to directly compare them in their appearance in STABmons. Bewear, one of the better FakeSpeeders thanks to Fluffy, is BL2 normally. Is it unviable in STABmons because it plays completely differently in a different metagame?
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Here, I'll give you one for free:

Boasts access to both Soundproof and Sap Sipper, reasonable bulk, reasonable Attack, access to recover, and can fill your role as a FakeSpeeder or even cleaner with Swords Dance! (Seriously, this thing picked up in usage at the end of ORAS as a very reliable Mega Pidgeot check.)
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
You're looking at Pokmeon in standard and trying to directly compare them in their appearance in STABmons. Bewear, one of the better FakeSpeeders thanks to Fluffy, is BL2 normally. Is it unviable in STABmons because it plays completely differently in a different metagame?
Y'know, you're perfectly right about that. There are some Pokemon that, while not so great in standard OU, manage to do well with the gifts STABmons has blessed them with. Besides Bewear, there's also Ursaring, Braviary, Sylveon, and of course, Silvally. However, most big STABmons players were already viable to begin with (E.G. Tapu Koko, Rotom-Wash and Landorus-Therian). There are exceptions, but the point is, they are just that. Exceptions. I still feel like making comparisons to OU is fair. Besides, I doubt that Electivire and Honchkrow are gonna be smashing through the viability rankings anytime soon.
 

Houndoom @ Houndoominite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Blue Flare
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
- Taunt

Just want to draw everyone's attention to this criminally underrated beast. Never have I ran into one, but I've personally been experimenting with a plethora of Mega Houndoom sets on a variety of builds, and this pokemon is an absolutely phenomenal Stall Breaker. Boasting strong and unique typing both offensively and defensively, with the awesome Flash Fire in the back pocket alongside great speed and power, this mon is not to be overlooked. Blue Flare is incredible on Mega Houndoom, and after a Nasty Plot, there is very little that could even dream of surviving this monster's STABs. Even Max HP Tapu Fini is guaranteed to be 2HKOed by a +2 Blue Flare. As an example, take Jajoken 's stall team on page 14. At +2, everything is OHKOed bar Chansey and Toxapex, Chansey is forced to use Struggle by Taunt, and Toxapex fails to 2HKO with Scald, meaning Houndoom can Taunt to prevent Haze before 2HKOing with Dark Pulse. Unaware is not an answer to Mega Houndoom, as Clefable and Quagsire are both 2HKOed after Stealth Rocks by Blue Flare and Dark Pulse respectively, and more importantly are both OHKOed by Sunny Day sets. The only chance that Stall has against Mega Houndoom is Dugtrio.

But this is far from Mega Houndoom's only set, as I mentioned I've tried many. All Houndoom really needs is dual STAB, so you have 2 move slots to do whatever you'd like. Sunny Day is an epic alternative to Nasty Plot, giving more immediate power on Blue Flare and bypassing Unaware mons more easily, while also allowing you to sponge up Scalds. Sunny Day + V-Create is a pretty cool combo, working the same way as Mega Zard-Y's similar set. If you're looking to maul offence with Mega Houndoom however, options like Eruption and Parting Shot are pretty epic, with Will-O-Wisp also bringing great utility.
Honourable mentions to Substitute, Magma Storm and Night Daze too.

Obviously Mega Houndoom isn't without flaws though. Its 115 Speed tier however great, still leaves a lot to be desired as it is revenged by many faster threats such as Koko and Gren, as well as Scarfers. It's relative frailty and weakness to Mach Punch, Accelerock and Aqua Jet also leave it very weak to priority spam. And its Stealth Rock weakness isn't exactly doing it a bunch of favours, even less so if you're running Sunny Day to abuse Solar Power. However, if you're willing to build around Mega Houndoom and give it the support it needs, I guarantee it'll pull it's weight. All it demands it SR removal and it'll defeat Stall single handedly, but if you're prepared to give it some Sticky Web support as well, it'll crush offence too, even without the Eruption + Parting Shot set.

Unfortunately I don't have a bunch of replays atm, but I might start saving a few now. But just in case you're not convinced, here's a bunch of calcs:
252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Unaware Clefable: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Unaware Clefable in Sun: 409-483 (103.8 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 195-231 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire in Sun: 356-419 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Blue Flare vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 178-210 (51.8 - 61.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Houndoom-Mega V-create vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 355-418 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Blue Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 382-451 (100.2 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Silvally: 271-319 (81.8 - 96.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 (Flash Fire) 252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Blue Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 335-394 (112.7 - 132.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tl;dr Use Mega Houndoom. Use on Sticky Webs for extra demolition.
 
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These are NOT the only 2 Koko sets. Band, Scarf, Specs, Flynium Z, Magnet, Mixed LO, Taunt etc. are all viable sets. Reducing Koko's sets run to 2 Life Orb sets is just silly.
Choice Item:" If we use a Choice Item, we can more easily counter him with some anticipation "
Flynium Z, Magnet: LO hits harder.
Taunt: A lot of checks can OHKO Koko.
Mixed LO: Same checks that physical set ?
I reduce Koko to his best set, the physical set. I NEVER seen a Koko with HP Fire and I know this metagame ( Without any Pride ). That sounds like a gimmick's set.

I speak with my experience of Koko, I don't use a Hard-Check like Steelix, but he was never a problem for me. This pokemon has a 4move syndrome, he can deal with a lot of checks, but not all( Who use Grass Knot ?). All STABMONS's team has one or two checks of Koko ( GRASS and GROUND pokemon are VERY good ).
 

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