Metagame STABmons

Lmao, Marshadow came out two days ago? And you guys are already screaming BAN BAN BAN. Try to adapt for at least one or two weeks before being scared like a children in a supposedly haunted castle. Possibly even a month or two. Please.
So, personally i found that max hp/max def/4 spa Tapu Fini is a good answer. Origin Pulse (because i was dumb enough to run scald)/Moonblast/Moonlight (no better recovery move T_T)/Defog. For now i had no problems with all the Marshadow i found. Of course this is just ONE thing, it works for me so i didn't try to search anything else. Probably skarmory with beak blast can be a check (if it set up a substitute that will fade away :P).
 
Lmao, Marshadow came out two days ago? And you guys are already screaming BAN BAN BAN. Try to adapt for at least one or two weeks before being scared like a children in a supposedly haunted castle. Possibly even a month or two. Please.
So, personally i found that max hp/max def/4 spa Tapu Fini is a good answer. Origin Pulse (because i was dumb enough to run scald)/Moonblast/Moonlight (no better recovery move T_T)/Defog. For now i had no problems with all the Marshadow i found. Of course this is just ONE thing, it works for me so i didn't try to search anything else. Probably skarmory with beak blast can be a check (if it set up a substitute that will fade away :P).
Adapt to what ? A stellar typing and unresisted Stabs which belong to most offensive oriented types in the game ? Adapt to a Pokemon whose whole presence and it's signature Ghost stab puts pressure on every setup sweeper and can sweep entire teams after a boost or 2 ? Adapt to a Pokemon who can run a diverse variety of effective sets that can put immense work on any team ? A fantastic speed tier to pressure teams and gain momentum while not being too frail in the process ? Substitute - Bulk-Up screws anything remotely passive that tries to cripple it. Z-Marshadow is an even better set which is capable of wall breaking and also breaks the aforementioned walls and checks at +1 very hard. Choice Sets although less preferred is also a viable set since it breaks and chips things very efficiently and the constant amount of switches Marshadow gains only adds to it's potency it can also run and hit things from the special side of the spectrum to gain OH-KO's on potential switch-ins such as Lando-T. There is also a very bad meme running around right now which is Swagger + Spectral Thief which i personally think is shit but when it works, the amount of work pulled off is hilarious. As far as switch-ins and counters go nothing is really safe and Marshadow can easily go to +1 with bulk-up or sub or any opportunity or the random Trick-Or-Treat and/or be a man and steal boosts. Let's see all the premium walls shall we ?

+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 258-304 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 145-172 (47.6 - 56.5%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Good switch-in on non z move variants but fold to z move after any hazards or previous chip and gets 2hko'ed by spectral, This is standard set but you can go full defense for a better switch but it's passive as shit and can stall out at best and walls almost every offensive mon lacking strong weakness coverage which should not be used to declare a Pokemon healthy.

+1 252 Atk Technician Marshadow Storm Throw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory on a critical hit: 184-217 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 262-310 (78.6 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 150-177 (45 - 53.1%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
Storm Throw 2hkoes cleanly but skarm is a good switch-in probably one of the best as it either forces Mars to 1v1 it or switch-out which brings it down to halting momentum or getting down to almost 10% if hit by brave bird. Folds to z-move varient everyday after a single boost.

+1 252 Atk Technician Marshadow Storm Throw vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth on a critical hit: 205-243 (50.8 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 295-348 (73.2 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Fully defensive Tangrowth gets clean 2hko'ed by Storm Throw and also folds to the z-move after chip and no matter what you hit it with, it is immediately forced to switch-out since you take away minimum 40% of it's health and are almost guaranteed a kill if it stays in for spore or knock off.

+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 333-393 (96.8 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 187-222 (54.3 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Your Tapu Fini set is a good safe card to have against offensive builds but folds to z-move (takes about 70% at neutral) and is not a good counter with the longevity of the match and still takes good amounts of damage.

+1 252 Atk Technician Marshadow Storm Throw vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz on a critical hit: 225-265 (53.4 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 161-190 (38.2 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mandibuzz is almost as close as it can come for a great switch-in which can immediately kill it with little chip with foul play and laugh off it's ghost stabs and z-move. But No! Sir, our storm throw is a clean 2hko which renders it to roost stalling or bopping. However on unboosted varients with or without z-move, Mandibuzz laughs. Banded storm throw is still a 2hko if that is run at all.

All of the premier walls in STABmons and in general fail to effectively counter Marshadow in a nutshell due to it having multiple effective ways to break them and having great STABs in general and even if Marshadow is brought down by these counter-measures it still breaks them or paves the way for others to come in and go ham.

Regarding your adapt statement, it is clear cut false as we adapt to those mons which have a positive effect on the metagame and a Pokemon that has the ability to pressure all sorts of setup sweepers and sweep at any point of the game and has a custom built z-move and a guaranteed tech boosted critical stab should be adapted too ? Nah Brother it needs to be kicked.

Final Opinion - Marshadow is not at all healthy for this tier as it forces balance, offense and slower builds to run passive as shit move-sets and mons to prevent getting swept and results in unfavorable circumstances. It has stellar utility and it's power can be seen with it's thunderous rise in usage in mere days of release. It has real lack of dedicated counters and it's custom Z-Move is basically a one time guaranteed huge damage or kill button which can't really be resisted without running certain mons. And finally even if Marshadow is considered OK to be in the tier it's access to damn "STORM THROW" needs to be looked at or quick-banned, it is utter bullshit and the access to a guaranteed critical technician boosted STAB on an already powerhouse of a Pokemon is laughable as it lets it out-reach it's potential in the meta, grants ability to dent premier walls and counters which should not happen such as skarm and mandibuzz and makes it very hard to handle in general. At-least kick Storm Throw if not the mon itself.

Final Edit - Whoever is trying to get opinions and thoughts as well as a closer look at Kyu-B instead of quick-banning it ASAP is a maniac. Ban that monstrosity.
 
Yeah, adapt to that. Luckly it is not AAA (adaptability pun intended). Then I'm clearly low ladder, since i had little problem with Marshadow. Lmao @ the final edit HAHA <3
So, to be manageable at least ST & its Z Crystal should go. Hm. Well, ok, i won't complain its death. It is sad that it has being created in the first place, then.
EDIT: just one thing, 252hp/252def is not seen on Tangrowth? Why?
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Might as well give my thoughts on the suspects at hand, especially after seeing how the meta was without them

Marshadow
Probably the biggest culprit of them all, I personally believe Marshadow is the most broken threat in the current metagame mainly thanks to Storm Throw Technician + Spectral Thief being extremely difficult to switch into. I have been abusing a Z-Trick-or-Treat set and it has been putting incredible amounts of work once it is given a chance to setup (which is many times thanks to how well it forces out mons), usually sweeping from there on out. Another facet towards Marshadow's overbearing presence is its access to priority as well (be it Sneak or Mach Punch, although I prefer the former to check other Marshadow and GhostVally), meaning that revenge killing it can be nigh impossible unless one decides to use either FakeSpeed Mega Lopunny or Sylveon. At first I considered Swagger sets to be nothing but gimmicky, but when paired with Glare support, it can actually be extremely devastating since it allows Marshadow to bypass counters in Toxapex and Beak Blast Celesteela. Considering all these points, Marshadow is nothing short but overpowered in the current metagame, which is why I will be voting to Ban it. Sucks cause its a really cool mon, but if we want a balanced meta then it should never be allowed in it.

Kyurem-B
Kyurem-B is a threat that has always flown under the radar ever since it was unbanned at the beginning of Gen 7, however it has quickly cemented itself as an absolute monstrosity within the past couple of weeks. While regular Dragon Dance sets have always been amazing, the introduction of Z-Stones is really what has pushed it over the edge imho since it allows it to break through checks in Rotom-W and Magearna which it would otherwise have a difficult time breaking through even after one boost. Its ability also compounds to its devastating nature, since it allows it to bypass opposing abilities that might be able to check it in Levitate (mainly on Rotom-H), Disguise (on Mimikyu ofc) and Unaware (on both Quagsire and even Clefable), extremely limiting the amount of counterplay against it. While its susceptible to priority from the likes of Sylveon and Mega Lopp / Diggersby, Kyurem-B's adequate bulk enables it to even sustain these attacks, diminishing the option as a secure way of dealing with it once it has setup. While defensive Mega Scizor can "counter" the standard sets, as Akashi pointed out, lure options such as LO Hidden Power Fire can also catch it off guard (and does not hinder Kyurem-B's wallbreaking potential, since DD + Ice and Electric coverage is really all it needs). Considering all these points, Kyurem-B is too potent as a sweeper in the STABmons metagame, resulting in a Ban vote from me.

Silvally-Ghost

While Marshadow might have taken some shine away from it as the best offensive Ghost-type in the metagame, I still believe GhostVally to be too much. Quiver Dance sets with Ghost / Fighting coverage alongside a utility slot with either Taunt, Spore or Strength Sap is ridiculously difficult to stop. Moongeist Beam + Secret Sword in tandem with the aforementioned status options leaves very few reliable ways to check it once it is given even one turn to setup, resorting to niche options such as Safety Goggles Heart Swap Magearna and Topsy-Turvy Sableye (which has been weakened as an option as a whole since SM started) just to prevent it from sweeping one's team. While new checks in Mega Lopunny and Scarf Marshadow may prevent it from sweeping at +1, its above average bulk also enables it from falling from priority attacks unless it has been severely weakened. GhostVally is just too versatile as an offensive threat imho, and even if Marshadow outclasses it somewhat, I still believe that it offers to little counterplay due to how it can customize its moveset to bypass certain answers. I will be voting to Ban it as well.

Tapu Koko

Finally we have probably the most contentious suspect. Initially, I was fully supportive in removing it in the meta since STAB Electric Terrain boosted Bolt Strike is incredibly difficult to check, but as I started to account for it more and more as I teambuild, I found that it may not be as overbearing as I once that it was. Obviously, Ground-types are a major key in checking it (great examples being Landorus-T, Mega Steelix, and Rhypherior) and with their new access to Shore Up, U-Turn pivoting cannot reliably whittle the aforementioned threats down. Apart from Ground-types, other miscellaneous threats such as Tangrowth, Mega Venusaur, Rotom-C, and Lightingrod Alolan-Marowak all pose a threat against Tapu Koko, preventing it from just spamming its Electric-type attacks mindlessly. The main counterargument to this is that Tapu Koko has access to movesets that can bypass the aforementioned checks (whether it be Z-Mirror Move Brave Bird or Hidden Power Ice), it still cannot reliably run all these options without being weak to one of its checks (since U-turn is so important as a moveslot). While Tapu Koko is one of the best wallbreakers in STABmons alongside Ash-Greninja, I still feel it has enough counterplay which limits it from being too overbearing to play around against, resulting in a No Ban vote imo.

Would like to see others thoughts, especially of the last two pokes.
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
heat theorymon Marshadow checks incoming
disclaimer: marshadow is prob borked but w/e get creative!

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Beak Blast / Dragon Ascent
- Liquidation / Crabhammer
- Roar / Thunder Wave / whatever really

8 speed beats neutral base 50s eg Azu, creep as required but not too much. Gyara can come in on anything Marshadow does which isn't an Electric type attack and Roost off the damage or Beak Blast it to death.

252 Atk Choice Band Technician Marshadow Storm Throw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados on a critical hit: 135-159 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 120-142 (30.5 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 259-306 (65.9 - 77.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (after a BU, but Gyarados gets a turn of Lefties here so it doesn't actually die)
0 Atk Gyarados Beak Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 314-372 (97.8 - 115.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 268-316 (68.1 - 80.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0- SpA Life Orb Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 281-333 (71.5 - 84.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Granbull @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Play Rough
- Moonlight
- Earthquake
- Heal Bell / Thunder Wave / filler

Same idea.

252 Atk Choice Band Technician Marshadow Storm Throw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Granbull on a critical hit: 139-164 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 124-147 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 98.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 267-315 (69.7 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
8 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 276-326 (85.9 - 101.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 146-174 (38.1 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


These aren't super niche mons either, both have seen success in the past/are still good regardless of Marshadow.
:toast:
 
Funbot28 — I'm just curious as to what has changed in like... three days? Like you supported the Ban but suddenly don't anymore?

All of your examples, bar Rhyperior and Steelix-Mega, don't get circumvented by random or weird options. Brave Bird is completely viable since it does get around Grass-type checks. I can't write a lot, but you can refer to my post a few pages back on why Tapu Koko is unhealthy. It'd be really disappointing if Tapu Koko stayed. It's not healthy for the metagame. And if you're running Rhyperior and Steelix-Mega, doesn't that tell you there is an issue? They are viable but nowhere near as viable as they should be. I'm personally a fan of Steelix-Mega in particular, but both are so easily exploitable through other common threats (Greninja just walks over them). I just find it strange that you changed your opinion 180 really suddenly so I'm hoping to try and understand what caused the change.

Agree with the rest of your post though!

EDIT: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons-om-of-the-month.3587949/page-11#post-7409219. Here's the post. On mobile and tired, sorry for being incoherent.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Funbot28 — I'm just curious as to what has changed in like... three days? Like you supported the Ban but suddenly don't anymore?

All of your examples, bar Rhyperior and Steelix-Mega, don't get circumvented by random or weird options. Brave Bird is completely viable since it does get around Grass-type checks. I can't write a lot, but you can refer to my post a few pages back on why Tapu Koko is unhealthy. It'd be really disappointing if Tapu Koko stayed. It's not healthy for the metagame. And if you're running Rhyperior and Steelix-Mega, doesn't that tell you there is an issue? They are viable but nowhere near as viable as they should be. I'm personally a fan of Steelix-Mega in particular, but both are so easily exploitable through other common threats (Greninja just walks over them). I just find it strange that you changed your opinion 180 really suddenly so I'm hoping to try and understand what caused the change.

Agree with the rest of your post though!

EDIT: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons-om-of-the-month.3587949/page-11#post-7409219. Here's the post. On mobile and tired, sorry for being incoherent.
To be quite honest I am still on the fence on whether or not it should go. You brought up valid points in your post which initially persuaded me to vote to ban it, however after playtesting around with numerous Tapu Koko sets myself I realized how difficult it can be to utilize at times due to the constant 50/50s when deciding to use its Electric STAB moves (due to the prevalence of Grounds and Grass-types). It can ideally break through all its checks, but that requires proper prediction which might not always be present due to the how little damage its coverage moves do in comparison to its STAB attacks, and how it can be continuously chipped down by hazards when pivoting out oftenly (leaving it in FakeSpeed range by a majority of abusers). I also disagree when considering the viability of the aforementioned Ground-types (should have mentioned Pert too but oh well), as not only are they useful in checking Koko, but they can also help deal with threats such as Aerodactyl and Alolan Marowak (ofc not Mega Lix). If anything, I can vote to abstain since im honestly still undecided, although your post did bring up good points.
 
Marshadow
At first I considered Swagger sets to be nothing but gimmicky, but when paired with Glare support, it can actually be extremely devastating since it allows Marshadow to bypass counters in Toxapex and Beak Blast Celesteela.
Tapu Koko

The main counterargument to this is that Tapu Koko has access to movesets that can bypass the aforementioned checks (whether it be Z-Mirror Move Brave Bird or Hidden Power Ice), it still cannot reliably run all these options without being weak to one of its checks (since U-turn is so important as a moveslot).
So. On marshadow, you can switch out on a predicted Spectral Thief so it won't steal the +2 from swagger. (Somethiing may die, for this, i agree, but meh).
On Koko, the fact that it can have lots of lures/sets is an argument that has always been used AGAINST pokemon, lol.
I do agree with all of them, but i will still ban Koko. Like the others it makes teambuilding a pain in the brain.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Here's my opinions on these bans:

Marshadow:
I don't have anything new to add to the discussion. Everything that has been said about how borked it is has been said. Ban pls.

Kyurem-B
:
The thing is, STABmons basically solves the only two problems that keeps this thing from being Uber:
1. It gets various good physical Ice STABs, which include Icicle Crash, Ice Hammer and Ice Shard.
2. With DDance, it went from being a pretty good wallbreaker to having very menacing sweeping potential.

Dragon/Ice/Electric combo is EXTREMELY difficult to wall, especially with it's monstrous 170 base Attack. The best answer to it, Mega Scizor, becomes futile if the foe runs HP Fire. Ban pls.

Tapu Koko
:
You just click Bolt Strike. That's it. Aww, a Tangrowth. Cute. Brave Bird. Dead. Unlike Tapu Lele (which was banned a while back), you don't even need to utilize a choice Scarf or Sticky Web, since Koko already outspeeds roughly 92% of the OU tier if you don't count BL stuff. Ban pls.

Silvally Ghost
:
I've come across more than one of these dudes. And lemme tell ya: Once it sets up one or two QDs, it's damn near impossible to stop. Moongeist Beam + Secret Sword is a move combo nothing can take on well, not even ultra passive yet bulky stuff like Toxapex. And even then, you can just Spore it and keep setting up. The only fool-proof counter to Silvally-Ghost is Mandibuzz, who can't be Spored due to Overcoat. And one good counter is simply not enough. Ban pls.




 

EV

Banned deucer.
Hello all! We will announce the results of the suspect tomorrow morning. Until then, we will be hosting another suspect tour today, July 6th, at 9 PM eastern (UTC -5) in the Other Metagames room on PS. Like before, Silvally-Ghost, Kyurem-Black, Tapu Koko, and Marshadow are banned for the tour.

See you then!
 
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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
So, I've been using Mega Lopunny in the past day or so. As you might imagine, it's pretty freaking good.


weeb remover (Lopunny-Mega) (F) @ Lopunnite
Ability: Scrappy
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Frustration/Ice Punch

It's safe to say Lopunny has completely usurped Stoutland as a Scrappy FakeSpeeder. Faster, stronger, and has a secondary Fighting STAB. You don't even need to run coverage: Maybe Ice Punch for Lando, but that's about it. I'm certain that Lopunny will be a very solid contender in the STABmons metagame, even with the rise of all the fairies. It's STAB Combo, combined with Scrappy, is very difficult to wall. You just need to have good bulk if you hope to take on this fierce rabbit.
Here's a good replay showcasing Lopunny's raw destructive power

With that said, let's move on to something a little more obscure.


Swellow @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Dragon Ascent
- U-turn

Swellow is sort of like a hybrid between Braviary and Ursaring with a few added features. While it is physically the weakest of the three, it can still hit hard with Guts and a Flame Orb, and unlike Braviary, requires less prediction to unlock it's full potential. It's super fast, outspeeding base Greninja and speed ties with Marshadow. It also has U-turn to pivot out of checks and counters. I've found that it combos quite well with Mega Lopunny, being able to break down bulky grass checks like Tangrowth and Venusaur with Guts STAB Dragon Ascent. Scrappy is also an option, but I prefer Guts.

EDIT: Here's another unique set I came up with. I wanna show it off right away, but I also don't wanna double-post and consume more space in the thread, so I'll just post it here.


Rotom-Heat @ Grassium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Forest's Curse
- Blue Flare
- Thunderbolt/Seed Flare

Here's the step-by-step process to using this set:

1. Use Spore.
2. Use Z-Forest's Curse.
3. Spam Blue Flare until you die.
Even after you've used up the z-crystal, you can still use Forest's Curse to make foes more suspectible to BF. Thunderbolt is STAB and is more reliable, while Seed Flare is still fairly strong and can hit Ground/Water opponents.

Here's a replay showing what can happen if everything goes right.
 
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So, I've been using Mega Lopunny in the past day or so. As you might imagine, it's pretty freaking good.


weeb remover (Lopunny-Mega) (F) @ Lopunnite
Ability: Scrappy
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Frustration/Ice Punch

It's safe to say Lopunny has completely usurped Stoutland as a Scrappy FakeSpeeder. Faster, stronger, and has a secondary Fighting STAB. You don't even need to run coverage: Maybe Ice Punch for Lando, but that's about it. I'm certain that Lopunny will be a very solid contender in the STABmons metagame, even with the rise of all the fairies. It's STAB Combo, combined with Scrappy, is very difficult to wall. You just need to have good bulk if you hope to take on this fierce rabbit.
Here's a good replay showcasing Lopunny's raw destructive power

With that said, let's move on to something a little more obscure.


Swellow @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Dragon Ascent
- U-turn

Swellow is sort of like a hybrid between Braviary and Ursaring with a few added features. While it is physically the weakest of the three, it can still hit hard with Guts and a Flame Orb, and unlike Braviary, requires less prediction to unlock it's full potential. It's super fast, outspeeding base Greninja and speed ties with Marshadow. It also has U-turn to pivot out of checks and counters. I've found that it combos quite well with Mega Lopunny, being able to break down bulky grass checks like Tangrowth and Venusaur with Guts STAB Dragon Ascent. Scrappy is also an option, but I prefer Guts.

EDIT: Here's another unique set I came up with. I wanna show it off right away, but I also don't wanna double-post and consume more space in the thread, so I'll just post it here.


Rotom-Heat @ Grassium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Forest's Curse
- Blue Flare
- Thunderbolt/Seed Flare

Here's the step-by-step process to using this set:

1. Use Spore.
2. Use Z-Forest's Curse.
3. Spam Blue Flare until you die.
Even after you've used up the z-crystal, you can still use Forest's Curse to make foes more suspectible to BF. Thunderbolt is STAB and is more reliable, while Seed Flare is still fairly strong and can hit Ground/Water opponents.

Here's a replay showing what can happen if everything goes right.
run lovely kiss, ice punch/flust dont really matter
 
Because the build is probably going to become less relevant with any upcoming bans, I'm going to dump my grimy stall team you have seen me using on the ladder. Technically it has no tour success but it did get to the finals twice and it has bested a few really good STAB players, so that's something! It's very consistent outside a couple key threats (screw Alo-wak), so if you're tired of losing to random bullshit on the ladder, pull out this nasty squad!


Celesteela @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Beak Blast
- Roost
- Heavy Slam
- Flamethrower

Sableye-Mega @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Parting Shot
- Recover
- Knock Off

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Whirlwind
- Toxic
- Transform

Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Haze
- Toxic
- Scald

Excadrill @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Shore Up
- Anchor Shot
- Earthquake

Bewear @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic
- Circle Throw
- Milk Drink
Celesteela
: Vital glue for the team. This Defense-based spread allows you to take on Landorus-T and most Fake-Speed users, especially Diggersby, which fails to KO with Fire Punch after it gets burned by Beak Blast. As for the moves, Beak Blast is mandatory for revenge burns and solid STAB, Roost keeps you healthy, Heavy Slam is consistent damage, and Flamethrower allows you to better check Scizor and Ferrothorn, in addition to fishing for burns on targets that know not to make contact. Safety Goggles are a fairly recent addition but this team lacks a Spore absorber outside of Mega Sableye, which can't take on most users outside Ferrothorn. For additional options, you can drop Heavy Slam for Anchor Shot (annoying but typically lower damage and pairs better with Leech Seed sets), Flamethrower for Defog (more reliable hazard removal but I often found Cele is too pressured in most matches to consistently check things and Defog), and Safety Goggles for Leftovers (what I ran for most of the time, recommended if you aren't afraid of Spore).

Mega Sableye
: Spin-blocker, hazard-blocker, Chansey-blocker, cock-blocker. Sableye is a real dick, and I lead with it every game, which has never screwed me over in the dozens of matches I've played. If you can safely Mega turn 1, do so (with Recover if need be). Otherwise, Parting Shot into something more apt to take on the opposing lead, and try to Mega at your earliest convenience. If they lead a Dark type, don't forget about the Prankster nerf, and hard switch into Toxapex (Greninja) or Bewear (Tyranitar). Physically defensive was mandatory to take on Marshadow, but when it finally leaves the ladder, you might experiment with a mixed spread. 8 Speed creeps Ferrothorn and more importantly opposing Sableye, allowing you to phaze them with Magic Bounced Parting Shot. Moves are fairly self explanatory: Parting Shot for momentum, Recover for healing, Knock Off for outstalling Leftovers, and Spectral Thief for checking setup sweepers. You have no idea how many random ToT Marshadows I've counter-boosted, and because it goes through Subs, you can check things like non-Shore Up SubDD/Coil Zygarde. You also do pretty well against variants of Silvally, but some extra SpDef would help tank Moongeist. As for other options, the only thing I really wished I had was Will o' Wisp, but I really don't see any way to fit it into the set. Possibly drop Parting Shot, but it's so nice as a lead that I wouldn't swap it out.

Chansey
: Everyone's favorite wad of used gum. I probably don't need to tell you this, but Chansey is an amazing blanket check to most special attackers, and even a lot of physical attackers (you can safely Transform on Kyurem-B as it DDs and start firing back). EVs are standard, item is non-negotiable, but the moveset is really down to personal preference. I've settled on Slack Off (because Chansey is fat as fuck and never exercised a day in its life), Transform for destroying sweeps in progress and possibly sweeping on your own terms, Whirlwind so you have a way to check Sub setup and things you can't transform into (as well as a way to phaze Heatran and other Steels), and Toxic as your "damage" move. Other options are near endless, but I've used Glare over Toxic (dropped it after a game versus betathunder where I paralyzed his whole team but couldn't kill anything, so it went on for hundreds of turns until he forfeited...sorry about that), Heal Bell over Whirlwind (nice but Heatran is annoying), and I could see Seismic Toss in there somewhere. One thing I wouldn't use is Rapid Spin, because I've found that Chansey is the easiest-to-spinblock Pokemon ever, but if you can make it work, go for it.

Toxapex
: Sleeper threat that counters a lot of supposedly uncounterable threats. A SpDef spread handily shuts down every variant of Greninja outside Protean Extrasensory, which still doesn't do too much. You may wonder why I need a secondary Greninja check when I already have Chansey, but Regenerator allows it to switch in for free without being forced to Recover, a very valuable tool in a team where Chansey is the only other check for most special attackers, so taking the pressure of it is really nice. Vitally, Toxapex might just be the only true defensive stop to the infamous mixed Zard-Y, which blows away Chansey with V-Create. Earthquake could be an issue, but I've never seen anyone run it. The moveset is pretty much set in stone, and funnily enough, it uses no new STAB moves whatsoever. Recover is Recover, Haze stops Nasty Plot Greninja and other random shit (Volcarona if anyone would use it), Toxic reliably hits Greninja and many switchins, and Scald finishes for burns and does a bit of chip damage, especially useful for Heatran, which you check unless they run offensive Earth Power. Black Sludge is further recovery, and I don't see any reason to run something else other than maybe Shucca Berry as an incredibly bad Alo-wak answer. I don't know what you'd run for moves other than maybe Toxic Spikes over Toxic (Greninja and Zard-Y become much more annoying but you gain additional pressure), or Toxic Thread if you're using Toxapex on balance rather than full stall. Never run Steam Eruption over Scald--you'll need all the PP you can get. I'd honestly recommend checking out Toxapex, it's a very consistent wall that people aren't acknowledging right now.

Excadrill
: This is where you start to scratch your head. Excadrill on stall? What the hell? Trust me, it's great! First, I'll address the question "why not Steelix," which is a valid point, but I prefer physically defensive (!!) Excadrill for a number of reasons. The first is your Speed tier, which obviously blows Steelix out of the water. The second is Mold Breaker, which allows you to setup Rocks against Magic Bounce, Earthquake Levitate users, and OHKO Mimikyu through Disguise. The third, relatedly, is your significantly higher base Attack, which even uninvested does a huge chunk to neutral targets and OHKOs many that are weak to you. Finally, because Drill has much better HP than Steelix, it actually takes special hits better despite marginally lower SpDef, allowing you to switch into most Magearna variants. With that out of the way, onto the set! As stated, this is full physically defensive, which makes up for Drill's incredibly subpar base 60 Defense and ensures you can repeatedly switch into most Tapu Koko variants, the real reason this is on the team. Play Rough does, at most, about 25% when Banded, less if Life Orb/Magnet. U-turn does very little and Bolt Strike is obviously ineffective. Because people are so infatuated with physical Tapu Koko, Excadrill is an incredibly reliable SR setter, getting a free switch on Koko 90% of the time (I have seen invested HP Fire--you've been warned). Drill is also one of this team's half-checks for Kyurem-B, as it eats Dragon Hammer and Fusion Bolt, with Icicle Crash failing to net a OHKO even at +1, allowing you to fire back with Anchor Shot for some solid damage. The moves are Stealth Rock for hazard pressure, Shore Up for unexpected recovery, Anchor Shot for trapping Pokemon that can't beat you and dealing consistent Steel damage (OHKOs Mimiku), and Earthquake for additional (Mold Breaker) STAB. Leftovers is mandatory for repeated Koko switchins, as it will U-turn nearly every time. I wouldn't run any different moves for defensive Drill, honestly, as Rapid Spin and Toxic would both be nice, but IMO Rocks + recovery + dual STAB is pretty much necessary. Consider Precipice Blades over EQ if you like to miss, or Thousand Waves if you're a freak.

Bewear
: And here we reach the revolving door slot of my team! Originally, Tsareena was here, because I need hazard removal and I though a second priority check wouldn't hurt. Then, it became Sylveon, which was the most reliable spinner I've used, but regrettably, I kept getting stomped by Tyranitar. Eventually, I arrived at this unassuming fluffball. Don't be fooled by its appearance, however, Bewear is a legitimate threat in the metagame. Like most of my team, I run fully physically defensive, which combined with Fluffy and a neat Fighting typing allows it to stop many physical attackers cold. Not only do you you handily take on almost every Tyranitar variant, but a shocking list of physical attackers, even those that hit you super effectively. It can:
  • Never be 2HKOd by unboosted non-Band/LO Marshadow's Storm Throw (no longer relevant but still shocking)
  • Sometimes survive 2 Brave Bird's from Choice Band Aerodactyl, and only take around 33% from non-damage item sets
  • Take around half from a Snorlax Espeed that already setup to +6, and living any coverage move
  • Almost always survive max Attack V-Create from Alolan Marowak on a critical hit (remember Fluffy's Fire weakness?)
As for moves, Milk Drink is my recovery move of choice (because I find it amusing that a stuffed animal drinks milk to heal), Circle Throw does good damage uninvested and phazes the opponent (like TTar that snapped up too many Defense boosts with Diamond Storm), Rapid Spin is the only hazard removal on the team in its current form, and Toxic is mainly to hit Marshadow, which somehow you wall, but you may want to switch it to a different move post-ban. Leftovers is...you know why Leftovers is here, at this point. Other options include Body Slam (which I first had but never clicked so I swapped it), Extreme Speed (does decent damage even uninvested thanks to your solid base Attack), Drain Punch (for more reliable damage/recovery), Bulk Up (for greater offensive phazing pressure), Swords Dance (much greater offensive pressure), and Glare (scum). I'd swap Toxic or Spin out, possibly both, but Circle Throw + recovery is vital IMO.

Threatlist:
  • Marowak-Alola: V-Create is brutal. Sableye is just straight up OHKO'd, post Mega, despite maximum investment. Best chance is pivot around with Toxapex and Celesteela, hoping your opponent chokes. Instant loss at matchup.
  • Mega Charizard X: Remember what I said about V-Create? Toxapex may be able to take them from Zard Y, but X is a menace, as Dragon Claw does a huge chunk and even resisted, V-Create does nearly half. Similarly impossible.
  • Kyurem-Black: There are no real counters to this thing, and hopefully it's on its way out. It can't outright OHKO very many Pokemon on the team, but I usually have to trade mon-for-mon to deal with it. Doable but aggravating.
  • Sub DD Shore Up Zygarde: Really specific but I lost a tour to this. Playing smart with Spectral Thief and Recover is really the only way, as most of your team struggles to break the Sub and Transform fails.
  • Mega Pidgeot: Hard to play around, but not a death sentence like Alolan Marowak or Zard X. Chansey walls, but you've got to pick a sleep fodder, as Safety Goggles won't save you and Mega Sableye is chunked by Hurricane.
  • Heatran: Can be dealt with, but it's annoying, as offensive variants outpace Excadrill and it can't be burned or poisoned. Best bet is to Knock Off Leftovers on the switch, and wear down with Toxapex + hazards.
  • Tapu Fini: Needs to be stalled out, which isn't especially hard as it is known to use Moonlight + Steam Eruption, two low-BP loves. Best option is to wear out Misty Terrain with Toxapex + Chansey and then force a switch.
  • EDIT: Thundurus/Thundurus-T: Forget to put these in the post originally, but yeah, huge problem for the team unless you play around All-out Pummeling. Chansey actually eats +2 from Thund-I, but basically you need to win the subsequent speed tie after Transforming.
Replays:
  • [1] The most recent incarnation of this team. OM Room has a really solid offensive squad with some of the biggest threats, like Tapu Koko, QD Ghost Silvally and Diggersby, but the matchup was still strongly in my favor. While this battle ends in a forfeit after turn 22, I think it still shows off a lot of the strengths of the team, like Transform Chansey tanking +2 Earth Power from Heatran after losing the Speed tie, then KOing back, or Mega Sableye safely switching into Ghost Silvally to Spectral Thief, or Celesteela stopping Diggersby cold despite its appropriate Fire coverage.
  • [2] Another relatively short match at 52 turns, this replay shows the earliest version of the team. Mainly I wanted to show off the trapping potential of Excadrill, which eliminates Magearna with relative ease, all while setting up Rocks. Then, Sableye is able to shut down Marshadow with a little help from Celesteela. Also Greninja is unable to do anything, which is the benefit of Toxapex.
  • [3] My match against betathunder's terrifying Future Sight + Doom Desire team. I will admit I got a lot of para-hax here, but not all of it was to my advantage, given I was trying to PP stall at points. This is the longest game where the whole replay actually saves, so I just wanted to provide an example of the longevity that the team has, even against teams that exert a lot of pressure.
  • [4] Back to the short replays, at 33 turns. My opponent is use the hyperest of hyper offense, pressuring me greatly with Kyurem-B, Dugtrio, and Mega Pidgeot, but my walls were able to hold regardless. The real highlight here is demonstrating how gross Bewear is, with +2 Guts-boosted Ursaring Extreme Speed on a critical hit doing a mere 60% and low health Dugtrio Reversal doing less than a third.
  • [5] Another replay of the original version of the team, against yoman. I actually lose this match due to a few key chokes and major misclick near the end, but I still think it shows the defensive pressure the team keeps up even against some of the strongest threats in the meta, like mixed Zard Y. Solid match on my opponent's part, and well deserved win.
  • [6] I lose this one decisively and the replay breaks after 209, while I'm pretty sure the actually battle reached 300, but I just wanted to put this in to shoutout Jeran, who fought me three times for 500-600 combined turns of stall, and methodically dismantled me very time. If I played this better, I probably could have turned the PP stall in my favor, but I was pretty clearly outclassed here. This also shows off Syvleon, who is absent in the other replays.
  • I saved a few others, search Jajoken and look for recent STABmons games.

And finally, my aplogies to anyone that had to play this shit! Time to go back to offense.
 
Last edited:
Because the build is probably going to become less relevant with any upcoming bans, I'm going to dump my grimy stall team you have seen me using on the ladder. Technically it has no tour success but it did get to the finals twice and it has bested a few really good STAB players, so that's something! It's very consistent outside a couple key threats (screw Alo-wak), so if you're tired of losing to random bullshit on the ladder, pull out this nasty squad!


Celesteela @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Beak Blast
- Roost
- Heavy Slam
- Flamethrower

Sableye-Mega @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Parting Shot
- Recover
- Knock Off

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Whirlwind
- Toxic
- Transform

Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Haze
- Toxic
- Scald

Excadrill @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Shore Up
- Anchor Shot
- Earthquake

Bewear @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic
- Circle Throw
- Milk Drink
Celesteela
: Vital glue for the team. This Defense-based spread allows you to take on Landorus-T and most Fake-Speed users, especially Diggersby, which fails to KO with Fire Punch after it gets burned by Beak Blast. As for the moves, Beak Blast is mandatory for revenge burns and solid STAB, Roost keeps you healthy, Heavy Slam is consistent damage, and Flamethrower allows you to better check Scizor and Ferrothorn, in addition to fishing for burns on targets that know not to make contact. Safety Goggles are a fairly recent addition but this team lacks a Spore absorber outside of Mega Sableye, which can't take on most users outside Ferrothorn. For additional options, you can drop Heavy Slam for Anchor Shot (annoying but typically lower damage and pairs better with Leech Seed sets), Flamethrower for Defog (more reliable hazard removal but I often found Cele is too pressured in most matches to consistently check things and Defog), and Safety Goggles for Leftovers (what I ran for most of the time, recommended if you aren't afraid of Spore).

Mega Sableye
: Spin-blocker, hazard-blocker, Chansey-blocker, cock-blocker. Sableye is a real dick, and I lead with it every game, which has never screwed me over in the dozens of matches I've played. If you can safely Mega turn 1, do so (with Recover if need be). Otherwise, Parting Shot into something more apt to take on the opposing lead, and try to Mega at your earliest convenience. If they lead a Dark type, don't forget about the Prankster nerf, and hard switch into Toxapex (Greninja) or Bewear (Tyranitar). Physically defensive was mandatory to take on Marshadow, but when it finally leaves the ladder, you might experiment with a mixed spread. 8 Speed creeps Ferrothorn and more importantly opposing Sableye, allowing you to phaze them with Magic Bounced Parting Shot. Moves are fairly self explanatory: Parting Shot for momentum, Recover for healing, Knock Off for outstalling Leftovers, and Spectral Thief for checking setup sweepers. You have no idea how many random ToT Marshadows I've counter-boosted, and because it goes through Subs, you can check things like non-Shore Up SubDD/Coil Zygarde. You also do pretty well against variants of Silvally, but some extra SpDef would help tank Moongeist. As for other options, the only thing I really wished I had was Will o' Wisp, but I really don't see any way to fit it into the set. Possibly drop Parting Shot, but it's so nice as a lead that I wouldn't swap it out.

Chansey
: Everyone's favorite wad of used gum. I probably don't need to tell you this, but Chansey is an amazing blanket check to most special attackers, and even a lot of physical attackers (you can safely Transform on Kyurem-B as it DDs and start firing back). EVs are standard, item is non-negotiable, but the moveset is really down to personal preference. I've settled on Slack Off (because Chansey is fat as fuck and never exercised a day in its life), Transform for destroying sweeps in progress and possibly sweeping on your own terms, Whirlwind so you have a way to check Sub setup and things you can't transform into (as well as a way to phaze Heatran and other Steels), and Toxic as your "damage" move. Other options are near endless, but I've used Glare over Toxic (dropped it after a game versus betathunder where I paralyzed his whole team but couldn't kill anything, so it went on for hundreds of turns until he forfeited...sorry about that), Heal Bell over Whirlwind (nice but Heatran is annoying), and I could see Seismic Toss in there somewhere. One thing I wouldn't use is Rapid Spin, because I've found that Chansey is the easiest-to-spinblock Pokemon ever, but if you can make it work, go for it.

Toxapex
: Sleeper threat that counters a lot of supposedly uncounterable threats. A SpDef spread handily shuts down every variant of Greninja outside Protean Extrasensory, which still doesn't do too much. You may wonder why I need a secondary Greninja check when I already have Chansey, but Regenerator allows it to switch in for free without being forced to Recover, a very valuable tool in a team where Chansey is the only other check for most special attackers, so taking the pressure of it is really nice. Vitally, Toxapex might just be the only true defensive stop to the infamous mixed Zard-Y, which blows away Chansey with V-Create. Earthquake could be an issue, but I've never seen anyone run it. The moveset is pretty much set in stone, and funnily enough, it uses no new STAB moves whatsoever. Recover is Recover, Haze stops Nasty Plot Greninja and other random shit (Volcarona if anyone would use it), Toxic reliably hits Greninja and many switchins, and Scald finishes for burns and does a bit of chip damage, especially useful for Heatran, which you check unless they run offensive Earth Power. Black Sludge is further recovery, and I don't see any reason to run something else other than maybe Shucca Berry as an incredibly bad Alo-wak answer. I don't know what you'd run for moves other than maybe Toxic Spikes over Toxic (Greninja and Zard-Y become much more annoying but you gain additional pressure), or Toxic Thread if you're using Toxapex on balance rather than full stall. Never run Steam Eruption over Scald--you'll need all the PP you can get. I'd honestly recommend checking out Toxapex, it's a very consistent wall that people aren't acknowledging right now.

Excadrill
: This is where you start to scratch your head. Excadrill on stall? What the hell? Trust me, it's great! First, I'll address the question "why not Steelix," which is a valid point, but I prefer physically defensive (!!) Excadrill for a number of reasons. The first is your Speed tier, which obviously blows Steelix out of the water. The second is Mold Breaker, which allows you to setup Rocks against Magic Bounce, Earthquake Levitate users, and OHKO Mimikyu through Disguise. The third, relatedly, is your significantly higher base Attack, which even uninvested does a huge chunk to neutral targets and OHKOs many that are weak to you. Finally, because Drill has much better HP than Steelix, it actually takes special hits better despite marginally lower SpDef, allowing you to switch into most Magearna variants. With that out of the way, onto the set! As stated, this is full physically defensive, which makes up for Drill's incredibly subpar base 60 Defense and ensures you can repeatedly switch into most Tapu Koko variants, the real reason this is on the team. Play Rough does, at most, about 25% when Banded, less if Life Orb/Magnet. U-turn does very little and Bolt Strike is obviously ineffective. Because people are so infatuated with physical Tapu Koko, Excadrill is an incredibly reliable SR setter, getting a free switch on Koko 90% of the time (I have seen invested HP Fire--you've been warned). Drill is also one of this team's half-checks for Kyurem-B, as it eats Dragon Hammer and Fusion Bolt, with Icicle Crash failing to net a OHKO even at +1, allowing you to fire back with Anchor Shot for some solid damage. The moves are Stealth Rock for hazard pressure, Shore Up for unexpected recovery, Anchor Shot for trapping Pokemon that can't beat you and dealing consistent Steel damage (OHKOs Mimiku), and Earthquake for additional (Mold Breaker) STAB. Leftovers is mandatory for repeated Koko switchins, as it will U-turn nearly every time. I wouldn't run any different moves for defensive Drill, honestly, as Rapid Spin and Toxic would both be nice, but IMO Rocks + recovery + dual STAB is pretty much necessary. Consider Precipice Blades over EQ if you like to miss, or Thousand Waves if you're a freak.

Bewear
: And here we reach the revolving door slot of my team! Originally, Tsareena was here, because I need hazard removal and I though a second priority check wouldn't hurt. Then, it became Sylveon, which was the most reliable spinner I've used, but regrettably, I kept getting stomped by Tyranitar. Eventually, I arrived at this unassuming fluffball. Don't be fooled by its appearance, however, Bewear is a legitimate threat in the metagame. Like most of my team, I run fully physically defensive, which combined with Fluffy and a neat Fighting typing allows it to stop many physical attackers cold. Not only do you you handily take on almost every Tyranitar variant, but a shocking list of physical attackers, even those that hit you super effectively. It can:
  • Never be 2HKOd by unboosted non-Band/LO Marshadow's Storm Throw (no longer relevant but still shocking)
  • Sometimes survive 2 Brave Bird's from Choice Band Aerodactyl, and only take around 33% from non-damage item sets
  • Take around half from a Snorlax Espeed that already setup to +6, and living any coverage move
  • Almost always survive max Attack V-Create from Alolan Marowak on a critical hit (remember Fluffy's Fire weakness?)
As for moves, Milk Drink is my recovery move of choice (because I find it amusing that a stuffed animal drinks milk to heal), Circle Throw does good damage uninvested and phazes the opponent (like TTar that snapped up too many Defense boosts with Diamond Storm), Rapid Spin is the only hazard removal on the team in its current form, and Toxic is mainly to hit Marshadow, which somehow you wall, but you may want to switch it to a different move post-ban. Leftovers is...you know why Leftovers is here, at this point. Other options include Body Slam (which I first had but never clicked so I swapped it), Extreme Speed (does decent damage even uninvested thanks to your solid base Attack), Drain Punch (for more reliable damage/recovery), Bulk Up (for greater offensive phazing pressure), Swords Dance (much greater offensive pressure), and Glare (scum). I'd swap Toxic or Spin out, possibly both, but Circle Throw + recovery is vital IMO.

Threatlist:
  • Marowak-Alola: V-Create is brutal. Sableye is just straight up OHKO'd, post Mega, despite maximum investment. Best chance is pivot around with Toxapex and Celesteela, hoping your opponent chokes. Instant loss at matchup.
  • Mega Charizard X: Remember what I said about V-Create? Toxapex may be able to take them from Zard Y, but X is a menace, as Dragon Claw does a huge chunk and even resisted, V-Create does nearly half. Similarly impossible.
  • Kyurem-Black: There are no real counters to this thing, and hopefully it's on its way out. It can't outright OHKO very many Pokemon on the team, but I usually have to trade mon-for-mon to deal with it. Doable but aggravating.
  • Sub DD Shore Up Zygarde: Really specific but I lost a tour to this. Playing smart with Spectral Thief and Recover is really the only way, as most of your team struggles to break the Sub and Transform fails.
  • Mega Pidgeot: Hard to play around, but not a death sentence like Alolan Marowak or Zard X. Chansey walls, but you've got to pick a sleep fodder, as Safety Goggles won't save you and Mega Sableye is chunked by Hurricane.
  • Heatran: Can be dealt with, but it's annoying, as offensive variants outpace Excadrill and it can't be burned or poisoned. Best bet is to Knock Off Leftovers on the switch, and wear down with Toxapex + hazards.
  • Tapu Fini: Needs to be stalled out, which isn't especially hard as it is known to use Moonlight + Steam Eruption, two low-BP loves. Best option is to wear out Misty Terrain with Toxapex + Chansey and then force a switch.
Replays:
  • [1] The most recent incarnation of this team. OM Room has a really solid offensive squad with some of the biggest threats, like Tapu Koko, QD Ghost Silvally and Diggersby, but the matchup was still strongly in my favor. While this battle ends in a forfeit after turn 22, I think it still shows off a lot of the strengths of the team, like Transform Chansey tanking +2 Earth Power from Heatran after losing the Speed tie, then KOing back, or Mega Sableye safely switching into Ghost Silvally to Spectral Thief, or Celesteela stopping Diggersby cold despite its appropriate Fire coverage.
  • [2] Another relatively short match at 52 turns, this replay shows the earliest version of the team. Mainly I wanted to show off the trapping potential of Excadrill, which eliminates Magearna with relative ease, all while setting up Rocks. Then, Sableye is able to shut down Marshadow with a little help from Celesteela. Also Greninja is unable to do anything, which is the benefit of Toxapex.
  • [3] My match against betathunder's terrifying Future Sight + Doom Desire team. I will admit I got a lot of para-hax here, but not all of it was to my advantage, given I was trying to PP stall at points. This is the longest game where the whole replay actually saves, so I just wanted to provide an example of the longevity that the team has, even against teams that exert a lot of pressure.
  • [4] Back to the short replays, at 33 turns. My opponent is use the hyperest of hyper offense, pressuring me greatly with Kyurem-B, Dugtrio, and Mega Pidgeot, but my walls were able to hold regardless. The real highlight here is demonstrating how gross Bewear is, with +2 Guts-boosted Ursaring Extreme Speed on a critical hit doing a mere 60% and low health Dugtrio Reversal doing less than a third.
  • [5] Another replay of the original version of the team, against yoman. I actually lose this match due to a few key chokes and major misclick near the end, but I still think it shows the defensive pressure the team keeps up even against some of the strongest threats in the meta, like mixed Zard Y. Solid match on my opponent's part, and well deserved win.
  • [6] I lose this one decisively and the replay breaks after 209, while I'm pretty sure the actually battle reached 300, but I just wanted to put this in to shoutout Jeran, who fought me three times for 500-600 combined turns of stall, and methodically dismantled me very time. If I played this better, I probably could have turned the PP stall in my favor, but I was pretty clearly outclassed here. This also shows off Syvleon, who is absent in the other replays.
  • I saved a few others, search Jajoken and look for recent STABmons games.

And finally, my aplogies to anyone that had to play this shit! Time to go back to offense.
Pro tip: to beat this team simply bring zardy+thundy :P
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
run lovely kiss, ice punch/flust dont really matter
I don't like running Lovely Kiss. Mega Lopunny is already stupid enough without putting what few checks it has to sleep. Besides, I like Frustration, because it takes out Pokemon that would live an Extreme Speed, while not having to risk High Jump Kick missing.
 
Lovely Kiss is what pushes Mega Lopunny over the edge if it's being considered on any edge. Completely neutering its checks / counters (Landorus-T) with inducing sleep. Yeah, I don't see a reason to not run it. Is there anything that Frustration actually does? What Pokemon are KOed by it that Extreme Speed doesn't hit? Yeah I get not wanting to miss a High Jump Kick, but getting sleep utility in a set is excellent and far outweighs the negatives with its benefits. I personally run Lovely Kiss / Swords Dance / Extreme Speed / High Jump Kick. More immediately threatening and overbearing than FakeSperd in my opinion.
 

Nalei

strong, wild garbage
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
With the release of Spectral Thief, I feel there's one pokemon who deserves some attention: Mimikyu
It isn't innovative, but certainly underappreciated. Spectral Thief+Disguise allows Mimikyu to counter-sweep most set up sweepers (the exceptions being Sunsteel Strike and Moongeist Beam users as well as normal types). This can be an incredible tool on hyper offense teams that need an emergency button. Here's a set:
Mimikyu @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Play Rough
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
 
I wanted to share one more set that has done wonders for me.

Alakazam-Mega @ Alakazite
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic Terrain
- Psychic/Psystrike
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball/Dazzling Gleam/HP Fire/Agility

As evidenced by my earlier vouching for Bruxish, I hate priority. In a meta where FakeSpeed dominates, I tried to find a way around it, and this has been one way! Even with a Modest Nature, Alakazam outspeeds almost every unboosted/unscarfed Pokémon, speed tying with max speed Ash-Greninja I think. Modest means that it hits like an absolute truck. Psychic Terrain boosted Psychic moves do an enormous amount of damage to neutral targets, and even to frailer resists, while Focus Blast decimates Tyranitar (but doesn't OHKO all variants!) and can help with bulkier Steels like Ferrothorn and Heatran. The last move is up to you. Shadow Ball helps with Psychic types, Dazzling Gleam hits Dragons and Darks with more reliability than Focus Blast, HP Fire for Scizor and co., and I put Agility there because sometimes you realize you'll lose to a scarf Koko or something similar and you want to set up.

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-599448866
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-600008288
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-599426999 (FakeSpeed is meta, yo.)

I actually tried using a Meowstic with Prankster and a Terrain Extender to set up Psychic Terrain, but it can't do a whole lot else other than Heart Swap? Maybe? However, it definitely came in handy sometimes: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-599236164
 
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EV

Banned deucer.
Here it is! Sorry for the delay.


version 1.2
Suspect Results


Thanks to all the participants in the forum, the suspect tours, and in the rotating council. Overall, I think this suspect went smoothly, even if some people consider our methods too fast, or even (lol) dictatorial. (They shall not be named.) Anywho, here we go:


Results:


Silvally-Ghost - BANNED 8-0-0

Kyurem-Black - BANNED 6-1-1

Tapu Koko - NOT BANNED 2-6-0

Reasonings:
Silvally-Ghost: BAN
Silvally-Ghost has solid bulk, access to an excellent boosting move, reliable recovery, and perfect coverage. Silvally-Ghost has zero counters, only solid checks (Tapu Fini, Celesteela, Bewear, etc) that all eventually lose to it, as only Tapu Fini can stop it (Haze). Its presence is just so undeniable and it's so incredibly hard to halt its sweep. I'd say it morphs the metagame to stop it, but it literally can't at this point because it's not able to be stopped. I'm more interested to see if anyone can come up with a reason to not ban it, since I see zero reason to keep it as it's unhealthy and broken.


Tapu Koko: BAN
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons-om-of-the-month.3587949/page-11#post-7409219

I already wrote a lot about why I am voting to ban Tapu Koko, so I will link the post. To summarize, Tapu Koko is able to get around its counters with very viable, not niche, sets / moves. It's morphed the metagame into having more Grass-types rise (Greninja contributed as well), and I find its presence in the tier completely unhealthy.


Kyurem-Black: ABSTAIN
This may be a weird decision, but I stand by it. I'm genuinely not sure. On one hand, I do think Kyurem-Black is broken because of Dragon Dance, bulk, immense power, and reliable recovery. However, on another hand, it's something I've not used to its fullest extent and I've never really faced one that's overwhelmed me. Just from personal experience and the fact that I feel weird about voting either way, I will be voting to abstain from this vote. Would like to hear others thoughts to make a better decision, but as of now, it's abstain for me.
Silvally-Ghost: BAN
While Marshadow might have taken some shine away from it as the best offensive Ghost-type in the metagame, I still believe GhostVally to be too much. Quiver Dance sets with Ghost / Fighting coverage alongside a utility slot with either Taunt, Spore or Strength Sap is ridiculously difficult to stop. Moongeist Beam + Secret Sword in tandem with the aforementioned status options leaves very few reliable ways to check it once it is given even one turn to setup, resorting to niche options such as Safety Goggles Heart Swap Magearna and Topsy-Turvy Sableye (which has been weakened as an option as a whole since SM started) just to prevent it from sweeping one's team. While new checks in Mega Lopunny and Scarf Marshadow may prevent it from sweeping at +1, its above average bulk also enables it from falling from priority attacks unless it has been severely weakened. GhostVally is just too versatile as an offensive threat imho, and even if Marshadow outclasses it somewhat, I still believe that it offers to little counterplay due to how it can customize its moveset to bypass certain answers.


Kyurem-B: BAN
Kyurem-B is a threat that has always flown under the radar ever since it was unbanned at the beginning of Gen 7, however it has quickly cemented itself as an absolute monstrosity within the past couple of weeks. While regular Dragon Dance sets have always been amazing, the introduction of Z-Stones is really what has pushed it over the edge imho since it allows it to break through checks in Rotom-W and Magearna which it would otherwise have a difficult time breaking through even after one boost. Its ability also compounds to its devastating nature, since it allows it to bypass opposing abilities that might be able to check it in Levitate (mainly on Rotom-H), Disguise (on Mimikyu ofc) and Unaware (on both Quagsire and even Clefable), extremely limiting the amount of counterplay against it. While its susceptible to priority from the likes of Sylveon and Mega Lopp / Diggersby, Kyurem-B's adequate bulk enables it to even sustain these attacks, diminishing the option as a secure way of dealing with it once it has setup. While defensive Mega Scizor can "counter" the standard sets, as Akashi pointed out, lure options such as LO Hidden Power Fire can also catch it off guard (and does not hinder Kyurem-B's wallbreaking potential, since DD + Ice and Electric coverage is really all it needs). Considering all these points, Kyurem-B is too potent as a sweeper in the STABmons metagame.


Tapu Koko: NO BAN
Finally we have probably the most contentious suspect. Initially, I was fully supportive in removing it in the meta since STAB Electric Terrain boosted Bolt Strike is incredibly difficult to check, but as I started to account for it more and more as I teambuild, I found that it may not be as overbearing as I once that it was. Obviously, Ground-types are a major key in checking it (great examples being Landorus-T, Mega Steelix, Swampert (and its Mega) and Rhypherior and with their new access to Shore Up, U-Turn pivoting cannot reliably whittle the aforementioned threats down. Apart from Ground-types, other miscellaneous threats such as Tangrowth, Mega Venusaur, Rotom-C, Rotom-H, and Lightingrod Alolan-Marowak all pose a threat against Tapu Koko, preventing it from just spamming its Electric-type attacks mindlessly. The main counterargument to this is that Tapu Koko has access to movesets that can bypass the aforementioned checks (whether it be Z-Mirror Move Brave Bird or Hidden Power Ice), it still cannot reliably run all these options without being weak to one of its checks (since U-turn is so important as a moveslot). While Tapu Koko is one of the best wallbreakers in STABmons alongside Ash-Greninja, I still feel it has enough counterplay which limits it from being too overbearing to play around against.


Has mentions of marshadow, but my points still stand
Silvally-Ghost: BAN
Who would have known that in a matter of days Silvally-Ghost would go from hot topic to dying fad and back to hot topic, all thanks to Marshadow. And really that's what happened, Silvally was in Marshadow's shadow, forgotten about for a few days as a faster, sexier Ghost-type traumatized the ladder. Well thank God for the OU council. At any rate, Silvally-Ghost is back to doing what it does best, providing incredible coverage in only 2 moveslots, being able to run a slick setup move with Quiver Dance or Tail Glow, and filling the last slot with whatever it wants. Some have argued that the other Silvally forms are just as deadly - well, 1) the other forms aren't on trail, 2) no other form bar Fighting can run perfect coverage in 2 slots, and 3) no other form is immune to non-Scrappy or Pixie Fake Speed. All in all, Silvally may have fallen off the radar briefly, but we mustn't lose sight of it. Even in a metagame as unforgiving as STABmons, there are plenty of opportunities to setup on stall and balance teams, which simply crumble under Taunt or Spore. They call Silvally the jack-of-all trades in STABmons, but this form is a master.


Kyurem-Black: BAN
Things that appear broken on paper in a standard metagame are often held back by some flaw - in Kyurem's case, it's a lack of a strong physical Ice attack. It also lacks a competent setup move outside of Hone Claws; thus it sees more use as a mixed wallbreaker with Fusion Bolt, relying on an underwhelming 120 Special Attack stat. Now, I don't have to reiterate what you all know, that STABmons has blessed it with the missing pieces to the Ubers puzzle. So in that sense, if the gaps are filled in and Kyurem isn't suitable for a standard metagame (and thus would be banned by OU's philosophy), why should it stay in STABmons, which inherits the OU banlist? And to that you say, "Eevee! OU and STABmons are two different metagames. That's like comparing apples and oranges." To which I say, "You are right, my fruity naysayer. But don't forget Kyurem's total package." Impeccable bulk, unrivaled Attack, recovery, a Speed stat that doesn't require full investment to outpace the unboosted metagame after a Dragon Dance, an Ability that invalidates defense, and complimentary coverage that bypass the traditional counters to its STAB combination. It terrorizes every playstyle, and requires a handful of very specialized checks in order to beat it, two of which - Scizor and Steelix - require their mega form to do it, dashing the chance to use better megas available. It's about as restrictive as a wartime curfew when it comes to teambuilding. It's time to turn the lights out on Kyurem instead.


Tapu Koko: NO BAN
At first, Tapu Koko presents itself as another case of the Kyurems - its lack of strong, physical Electric STAB is fixed by STABmons with access to Bolt Strike, and to a lesser extent, Fusion Bolt. This allows TK to run full physical sets in order to abuse that tasty Attack and Electric Terrain bonus. It's also blisteringly fast and has just the right coverage options to break checks - Brave Bird, Grass Knot, Fleur Cannon, and a HP of choice. However, unlike its fellow suspects, the metagame has adapted to handle it. Mega Steelix is about as close to a perfect counter as you can get, though if you read my Kyurem-Black tag above, you'd call me out if I relied on that argument alone. Besides it, you have Landorus-T, a STABmons staple, Ferrothorn (also very common), Hippowdon, Mega Venusaur, Tangrowth, and a few niche options such as Mudsdale and Rhyperior/Rhydon. In essence, TK is very, very good, but it's no longer the runaway success that it appeared to be upon its release. It threatens offense the most, but in a metagame where offense is king, is that such a bad thing?
Silvally-Ghost: BAN
The ability to have any combination of four moves is ridiculous. The set that first comes to my mind is the secret sword, moongeist beam, quiver dance, and strength sap set. Once this set gets 1 or 2 qds up, it is nearly impossible to stop it without hax or mons that specifically counter this set like topsy-turvy sableye or some heart swap user like meloetta. What makes ghost silvally ban worthy and not the other forms is because ghost is immune to a common form of revenge killing in stabmons, fake speed. The only reliable fake speed users that can hit ghost silvally are sylveon, and scrappy users such as kangaskhan, stoutland, and mega lopunny. All of which can be strength sapped after using fake out and e-speed and silvally is back at full health.

Kyurem-Black: BAN
Having a massive 170 base attack, a setup move in dragon dance, a great ability, great bulk, and a great move pool is just too much. Give it a z-move and it can break anything.

Tapu Koko: NO BAN
While at first glance Tapu Koko seems unstoppable with its base 115 attack and 130 base speed along with its ability electric surge that boosts its electric moves, bolt strike/fusion bolt, by 50%. However, there are mons that can check this. Lando-T, Zygarde, Ferrothorn, Mega-Venusaur, Tangrowth, Marowak-alola, Mega steelix, Mega Swampert, just to name a few. While tapu koko can run things like hp ice/fire and grass knot for these mons, this takes up a move slot that koko uses for its other moves such as u-turn, play rough, brave bird, and while it helps to deal with its checks, it ends up being a double-edge sword in a sense, especially on choice sets.
Silvally-Ghost: BAN

It can do anything and I don't like that. I'm still convinced that Silvally in general is unhealthy, but this is a good first step. I don't really have more to say on the matter that hasn't already been said at length.


Kyurem-Black: BAN

Fundamentally it just has too many stats. It's insanely bulky (252 SpA Magearna Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black: 338-402 (86.4 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO), has really good 2 move coverage with BoltBeam, strong mixed options to break down Defensive steels, and a plethora of Z-Moves to use to just blast through would-be checks (+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Gigavolt Havoc (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 350-412 (96.1 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock). It also gets priority and Roost, as if it didn't have enough options to begin with.


Tapu Koko: BAN

I'm on the fence about this one. It puts a lot of pressure on teams to bring a defensive check and keep it alive the whole game. It's so strong that generic pokemon up to max HP 100/100 bulk get OHKO'd by a Jolly Magnet set, which isn't even close to the highest power output (252 Atk Magnet Tapu Koko Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew in Electric Terrain: 351-414 (86.8 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO). This combined with 130 base speed, which lets it outspeed pretty much every relevant unboosted pokemon, and U-Turn puts it over the edge for me. It has kinda subpar options to get around its checks, but it's mostly the fact that it's too strong of a revenge killer and cleaner that pushes it over the edge. The fact that it has Taunt, Roost, Nature's Madness, and all that stuff is icing on the cake.
Silvally-Ghost: BAN
Honestly everything was already said about it. Perfect coverage + solid bulk and virtually no counters just pushes it over the edge.


Tapu Koko NO BAN
Koko is hella strong but I think theres enough counterplay to keep it in the tier. Things like Alowak, Rotom-H, mega Steelix and bulky grasses are fairly easy to check Koko and they also have other relevant niches.


Kyurem-Black ban
I think cube is just too much. Amazing bulk lets it reliably set up and its way too strong, but I think the ability to break through its checks with Z-Moves is what pulls it over the edge.
Silvally-Ghost: BAN

man i first i thought this thing would be easy to stop every time and it wasnt as good as people thought it was but they i began to notice the trend in my teams, like it felt like silv was pressuring my teambuilding way more than i could ever believe and i began to notice how unstoppable silv is. i began using it (seriously) this time around to grasp what was really making this thing broken.i kept telling my self time and time again that this mon cant sweep a well built team, but i was wrong a simple double dance set just blew back teams beyond belief i just couldnt believe it maybe i was facing qd sets too much to not notice this and how naive i was to think that things like meloetta and mvenusaur could ever stop this thing.


Kyurem-Black: BAN

this thing is really nuts, somewhere in my heart i thought it was ok and easy to handle because i have been running stuff like rotom+lando+heatran but like it doesnt even matter for this time, it just rekts. my first encounter with sub was the worst. steel checks like mag and tran get blow back by coverage and z moves and everything else just dies.


Tapu Koko: NO BAN

while retesting this for myself because i thought i was missing something vital about this mon, i dont believe it pressures teambuilding in anyway, nor does it give u auto win options, the meta has adapted enough to use stuff like venusaur and even mix defensive lando. id say its a mon to look out for a sit has many sets to abuse and overcome its challenges but every comes with a sacrifice like z mirror move only works once and band u r locked each time. its power is very impressive but electric spam isnt spam-able right now.
(due to his travel obligations, betathunder was not able to provide reasonings)

Please be patient while I get the ladder updated.
 
Oh look, two of the main reasons I was avoiding STABmons are gone. Now Koko's just left, and I suppose I can adapt to that.

Curious as to Betathunder's reasoning for not banning Kyu-B, and if his travel obligation for not providing reasoning is over at some point, I'm genuinely curious as to what his reasoning was.

Off to have fun with Megados now.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Lovely Kiss is what pushes Mega Lopunny over the edge if it's being considered on any edge. Completely neutering its checks / counters (Landorus-T) with inducing sleep. Yeah, I don't see a reason to not run it. Is there anything that Frustration actually does? What Pokemon are KOed by it that Extreme Speed doesn't hit? Yeah I get not wanting to miss a High Jump Kick, but getting sleep utility in a set is excellent and far outweighs the negatives with its benefits. I personally run Lovely Kiss / Swords Dance / Extreme Speed / High Jump Kick. More immediately threatening and overbearing than FakeSperd in my opinion.
Exactly why I don't run it. It just feels too cheap imo.

Also, I'm fine with the bans we got now. All that's left to worry about is Koko, and since teams can now dedicate more space to checking it thanks to the removal of Ghostvally and Kyu-B, it shouldn't be too big of an issue.
 
Exactly why I don't run it. It just feels too cheap imo.

Also, I'm fine with the bans we got now. All that's left to worry about is Koko, and since teams can now dedicate more space to checking it thanks to the removal of Ghostvally and Kyu-B, it shouldn't be too big of an issue.
If you're worried about it being cheap, use it more and attention will be brought to the issue. That is, if you see it as broken. Using it more makes more sense than not using it.
 

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