Resource SM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final SM Update - #479)

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Arceus-Poison from C+ to B or B+
I still strongly believe that it deserves to be higher than C+.. I don't think it's a god tier mon obviously but it is better than what others perceive it to be and deserves more credit than it gets.
 
Arceus-Ground moving to S was one of the only things that got a yes vote from all 6 of the viability council members. It is the only Arceus forme that is capable of fitting into every style of team (and probably the best overall Arceus for each style currently), with multiple different sets, spreads, and move variations, and this is something that no other Arceus forme has ever been able to viably achieve in the tier. If a team is not using the specialized roles of Arceus-Fairy or Arceus-Water, it is very likely using Arceus-Ground. This means that every other Arceus forme has to be compared against Arceus-Ground and its abilities before being considered for a teamslot. Even the SD set is the least affected SD Arceus forme by Marshadow due to how it fits into teams alongside Marshadow's soft checks, while also helping against pokemon that offensive teams may struggle against such as RP Groudon. Arceus-Ground chokes out the viability of a lot of mons, especially potential stallbreakers as OHKOing Arceus-Ground even when boosted is very difficult while it is capable of OHKOing (and/or outspeeding) most of the sweeping Pokemon it is facing. S is a clear vote in the council's eyes.

Mega Lucario's drop was due to the raise of Ho-Oh and the matter that Toxapex is now a defensive threat that it struggles to break past. Even if Lucario is capable of dealing with these mons with coverage (Stone Edge/EQ), it still causes issues where it cannot run enough moves to sweep good teams anymore and its role may shift as a result. While Arceus-Fairy is a potential new target (it is still capable of running Earth Power), the combination of Arceus-Ground's usage, raises in Ho-Oh and Toxapex's viability means that it had to drop a little. It also has to deal with Marshadow both as competition as an offensive Fighting-type with priority, and when facing Marshadow, and that can be difficult.
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
Zekrom: C+ to B or B+
This isn't a mon people talk about much as versus offense it's not too relevant, but with the rise of bulky and stall teams this thing is a solid answer to them. People especially underestimate this mon's ability to break stall. Zekrom easily breaks through common walls like Giratina and Chansey. It's also able to 1v1 bulky support mons found on offense and stall teams alike, such as Ho-Oh, Clefable, Toxapex, and Arceus-Water (it doesnt need a Hone Claws to beat any of these mons.) After a boost it can even take on Primal Groudon.

Bolt Strike is one of the only relevant Electric moves in this meta, and it does a great job at breaking numerous threats that are not Primal Groudon or Arceus-Ground. To make up for this, it can run Hone Claws and Outrage to deal significant damage to both of those mons (most of the time, special Arceus-Ground outspeeds Zekrom and OHKOs it, the physical variant cannot unless it's using a Z-crystal). Teravolt helps Zekrom significantly against stall, in that it can ignore Lugia's Multiscale and even do memey plays like getting a Toxic onto Mega Sableye.

Like I said, Zekrom doesn't do to well against faster teams, but those teams are becoming less and less common as the metagame is continuing.

252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clefable: 331-391 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Water: 362-428 (81.5 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 360-426 (118.4 - 140.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 420-494 (100.9 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 343-405 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Lugia: 332-392 (79.8 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Giratina: 498-588 (98.8 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Giratina-Origin: 596-704 (135.1 - 159.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ground: 322-381 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clefable: 498-586 (126.7 - 149.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Water: 542-638 (122 - 143.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 516-607 (73.3 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 406-478 (98.7 - 116.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Lugia: 498-588 (119.7 - 141.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 753-886 (107.1 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 373-441 (92.5 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (wew)

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zekrom: 198-234 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arceus-Water Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zekrom: 152-180 (44.4 - 52.6%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zekrom: 69-82 (20.1 - 23.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
208+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zekrom: 260-307 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Arceus-Ground Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zekrom: 266-314 (77.7 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

Fireburn

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The main counter to the Zekrom argument is that Arceus-Ground has now become the standard for stall teams and Zekrom is incredibly hard pressed to get anything done when its around. Arceus-Ground's dominance in the meta at present is why we knocked it down several pegs. Arceus-Fairy getting better in this meta doesn't help it either.
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
The main counter to the Zekrom argument is that Arceus-Ground has now become the standard for stall teams and Zekrom is incredibly hard pressed to get anything done when its around. Arceus-Ground's dominance in the meta at present is why we knocked it down several pegs. Arceus-Fairy getting better in this meta doesn't help it either.
I wouldn't use Groundceus as the only justification for Zekrom since they aren't exactly counters. Decent checks definitely but after a boost Zekrom can take them both on pretty well. The standard physical set (252 attack, earthquake) cant OHKO without a Z-crystal (meaning that it will now have a much harder time dealing with Pdon later in the game), and the special set (judgement with no special attack investment) can barely get an OHKO and misses out on it if Zekrom runs at least 52 EVs in special defense. I can explain it better with calcs:

0 SpA Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Judgment vs. 0 HP / 52 SpD Zekrom: 288-338 (84.4 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Arceus-Ground Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zekrom: 266-314 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Ground: 396-466 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ground: 484-570 (127 - 149.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO


On top of that, if you're sacrificing Groundceus to kill Zekrom, isn't it losing its whole purpose as a Pdon check? Groundceus can't check both mons in one game, either you use your Tectonic Rage to KO Pdon or Zekrom, not both.
 
Why did Mega Bro drop all the way from B to unranked? Sure, Marsh coming into the metagame hurts it, but it can live any one hit from the wispy ghost and burn it with Scald. The rise of Arc-Ground is also in its favor. With the spread it commonly runs, +2 Tectonic Rage followed by an EQ doesn't OHKO it. It's also as good of a check as ever to most, if not all variants of PDon and things that check it like Lunala and special Arceus-Dark have fallen off. I'm not opposed to a drop just because of how passive it is (which is a hindrance in this meta), but I'm confused as to why it was taken off the rankings entirely.
 
This shift was massive, and while many changes I agree with, there are some that do need to be looked into:
Arceus-Ground: A+ >> S (below Xerneas) - As Aberforth said, SD Groundceus is now much worse and bulky Groundceus has issues with Marshadow or Mega Luke depending on EVs. I honestly don't believe that versatility alone can propel this into S. IMO it's like Abra - the sets themselves are like A or A+ rank but the combined total of them is great. However, when IMO those sets were pretty much all A rank, that shouldn't propel it to S.
Marshadow: Unranked >> A (top of A) - I personally think this little guy belongs in A+, really. I think this has much more of an impact on the tier than Mega Luke, Pogre, Deoxys-A and Ho-oh rn. It has the strongest ghost nuke in a meta where ghost nukes are invaluable, but can also choose to go LO and just sweep. This entire tier update should be a testament to how influential having unresisted STAB, the ability to steal any boost and godly speed and coverage is.
Arceus-Dragon: B >> C (below Mega Kangaskhan) - OK I'd have seen a drop to C+ but C? This still offers a great alternative to Waterceus that can hit Pdon without causing 4MSS, and while Marshadow did hurt it and the SD set is now finally recognized as bad, I don't think this belongs in C. Also it's not below Mega Kanghaskhan as Nayrz said in their post - it's below Landorus-I. whoops i fixed that - Nayrz
Mega Tyranitar: B- >> B (below Giratina) - Um, why? This thing has most of its special bulk ruined by weather shifts, it faces massive competition from Mega Salamence with a worse typing to boot and Marshadow just rapes this thing with LO CC.
Xurkitree: C+ >> Unranked - https://media.giphy.com/media/yIsbuPCEOgNHO/giphy.gif

On a final note, I'd like to make a nom of my own: Mega Kangaskhan to C- (between Grassceus and Blaziken) or even D. This thing's time has come. Marshadow has arrived and it beats the shit out of it with LO CC unless it runs Sucker Punch. If it does so, it either drops Crunch and loses its reliable way of hitting Ghosts or it loses Fake Out which makes it lose its free chip on everything. It also provides no defensive utility vs Marshadow unless you're able to predict Sneak/Spectral Thief/SS7SS. This isn't mentioning that it's still competing with Mega Salamence- which does provide something against non-HP Ice Marshadows -, Mega Gengar - which can trap troublesome threats for Marshadow in return for stacking weaknesses and it can be EVed to survive 1 shadow sneak at full health (max/max hp/def guarantees the survival of 1 hit and yeah while it is a mediocre spread it is something and 0 SpA Shadow Balls still has a 56.3% chance to OHKO) and Mega Luke - which still breaks most teams. The competition is rising while it is falling. Mega Kanghaskhan IMO is not as good as Mewtwo, Landorus-Incarnate or even Kyurem-White, which don't have the same drastic opportunity cost that Mega Kanghaskhan does (They do have opportunity costs but they're not as big), or Iceceus, Steelceus, or Dragonceus, which, while having about as big an opportunity cost, can actually provide huge roles for their teams, with Dragonceus giving an alternative to Waterceus without the 4MSS and Iceceus being able to beat many teams that don't have a Fighting type given Defog support.
Dragceus is not just a poor man's Waterceus in the majority of scenarios (a mon that has seen less usage recently itself, so it makes sense to drop arceus-dragon with it), but it's also outclassed by other defensive Dragon-types like Zygarde-C and Giratina most of the time. These Pokemon don't come with the crazy opportunity cost that dragonceus does (the inability to run a more useful arceus forme), and so most teams struggle to justify using arceus-dragon over one of these pokemon. Also, (and this is a big one) while on paper dragonceus can act as a check to threatening Pokemon like Ho-Oh and Primal Groudon, the reasonably high usage of Toxic on these Pokemon (and in Primal Groudon's case, Swords Dance as well) means that dragonceus often can't even check the Pokemon that it's tasked to take care of. C seems fine imo.

Also I wouldn't be opposed to a Mega Kang drop but don't use "max def max hp mega gengar" as the reason for it lmao.
 
It seems that water types Primal Kyogre, Mega Gyrados, and even a grass type in Shaymin-S got a decent ranking boost due to the increasing popularity of Arc-Ground. Has Arc-Ground become the current primo-counter to Primal Groudon, then?

And I sort of understand the reasoning behind Zekrom's slight fall due to Arc-Ground's boost, but being able to OHKO a stealth rock damaged Pdon with a Honing Claws boosted Devastating Drake(Outrage) should qualify him in at least the B- slot--given that this meta slowed down a bit, too.

Edit: I just wanted to send my thoughts to the official death of Reshiram. May he R.I.P. :(
 
Mega-gyarados: B >> D or Unranked

Why is did this thing even ranked in ubers? I can't think a single reason to include it on a team, not even in a meme team.

It loses 1vs1 against almost any ofensive threat, is weak to rocks, gets walled by really common pokemon ( PDon, salamence, ArcFairy), not even 90 speed and mediocre bulk make it hard to set up, is forced to run jolly nature because Mgengar, deoxis and mewtwo outspeed +1 adamant and even then is slower than scarfers, lacks the power to be a decent sweeper, can be used as set up bait by lots of sweepers ... I could continue to mention more of his flaws or give more details about how is posible that it sucks against every pkm with A rank or higher, apart from ArcGround and ho-oh, but I think it was enough to show the diference between gyarados and an real uber sweeper.

The only usefull perks gyarados has are his abilities (intimidate pre-mega and mold breaker), forcing 50-50s with your opponent to guess weather you will evolve or not, and the being able to learn taunt which allows him to deal with pasive pokemon. It may seem that it has a some utility in dealing with stall balance but even then which stall or balance team doesn't have a physical wall with an atacking move like Zygarde, Pdon, most arceus formes, MegaMence... Other pokemon like calm mind+refresh ArcFormes, taunt yveltal, taunt mewtwo, even some salamence sets do the job better and offer a lot more utility than this thing.
 
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Exiline

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Mega-gyarados: B >> D or Unranked

Why is did this thing even ranked in ubers? I can't think a single reason to include it on a team, not even in a meme team.

It loses 1vs1 against almost any ofensive threat, is weak to rocks, gets walled by really common pokemon ( PDon, salamence, ArcFairy), not even 90 speed and mediocre bulk make it hard to set up, is forced to run jolly nature because Mgengar, deoxis and mewtwo outspeed +1 adamant and even then is slower than scarfers, lacks the power to be a decent sweeper, can be used as set up bait by lots of sweepers ... I could continue to mention more of his flaws or give more details about how is posible that it sucks against every pkm with A rank or higher, apart from ArcGround and ho-oh, but I think it was enough to show the diference between gyarados and an real uber sweeper.

The only usefull perks gyarados has are his abilities (intimidate pre-mega and mold breaker), forcing 50-50s with your opponent to guess weather you will evolve or not, and the being able to learn taunt which allows him to deal with pasive pokemon. It may seem that it has a some utility in dealing with stall balance but even then which stall or balance team doesn't have a physical wall with an atacking move like Zygarde, Pdon, most arceus formes, MegaMence... Other pokemon like calm mind+refresh ArcFormes, taunt yveltal, taunt mewtwo, even some salamence sets do the job better and offer a lot more utility than this thing.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-605582249 :toast:
 
One Question.

Why Marshadow isn't A+?

Great Speed. Able to Wall break by using Choice Band or a Life Orb. Can be used as a Revenge killer. Ghost/Fight typing and good coverage. Technician boosts Rock Tomb and Shadow Sneak power. Can be used as a setup sweeper by using Bulk Up and Marshadium-Z hits like a truck. Spectral Thief is a Great STAB. Offensive teams can now check Extreme Killer Arceus. I am pretty sure that this thing has less checks. Nothing can tank this thing ( Maybe Defensive Arceus-Poison can tank this ). Revenge killing is the only way to beat Marshadow for now. I run Scarf Yveltal just to revenge kill this but still Close Combat hits my Yveltal like a truck. Scarf Lele and Scarf Yveltal are the only mons that can revenge kill this thing for now. This thing should get A+ Rank. Actually this thing is a S rank imo. But idk what others thinks about this so yeah, A+ rank is the place for Marshadow.
 
One Question.

Why Marshadow isn't A+?

Great Speed. Able to Wall break by using Choice Band or a Life Orb. Can be used as a Revenge killer. Ghost/Fight typing and good coverage. Technician boosts Rock Tomb and Shadow Sneak power. Can be used as a setup sweeper by using Bulk Up and Marshadium-Z hits like a truck. Spectral Thief is a Great STAB. Offensive teams can now check Extreme Killer Arceus. I am pretty sure that this thing has less checks. Nothing can tank this thing ( Maybe Defensive Arceus-Poison can tank this ). Revenge killing is the only way to beat Marshadow for now. I run Scarf Yveltal just to revenge kill this but still Close Combat hits my Yveltal like a truck. Scarf Lele and Scarf Yveltal are the only mons that can revenge kill this thing for now. This thing should get A+ Rank. Actually this thing is a S rank imo. But idk what others thinks about this so yeah, A+ rank is the place for Marshadow.
Uh youre overselling it. Arceus fairy is also the more used check to Arceus poison and band is kind of bad. Bulk up + marshadowdium z does worst vs offence and marshadow lo has trouble breaking through bulkier teams.
 
Why is Mega Blaziken ranked so highly compared to last generation? Also, why is Reshiram unviable?
The instant Speed change upon Mega Evolution makes Mega Blaziken far less reliant on Protect to initiate a sweep, being able to outpace a good number of Pokémon right off the bat. It can now also run an Adamant nature much better as a result, allowing it to hit as hard as possible.

As for Reshiram, it's walled to Hell and back by a ton of Pokémon in the metagame, and its typing looks awesome, but does it no favors in Ubers at all.
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
One Question.

Why Marshadow isn't A+?

Great Speed. Able to Wall break by using Choice Band or a Life Orb. Can be used as a Revenge killer. Ghost/Fight typing and good coverage. Technician boosts Rock Tomb and Shadow Sneak power. Can be used as a setup sweeper by using Bulk Up and Marshadium-Z hits like a truck. Spectral Thief is a Great STAB. Offensive teams can now check Extreme Killer Arceus. I am pretty sure that this thing has less checks. Nothing can tank this thing ( Maybe Defensive Arceus-Poison can tank this ). Revenge killing is the only way to beat Marshadow for now. I run Scarf Yveltal just to revenge kill this but still Close Combat hits my Yveltal like a truck. Scarf Lele and Scarf Yveltal are the only mons that can revenge kill this thing for now. This thing should get A+ Rank. Actually this thing is a S rank imo. But idk what others thinks about this so yeah, A+ rank is the place for Marshadow.
This post is pure meme because you're calling le mon of missing OHKOs S rank. If it is serious I recommend using this link: https://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/ it shows you exactly how much damage a certain Pokemon does to the other. Like for example you would be able to make sure statements like "Nothing can tank this thing" (even though Primal Groudon, Yveltal, Xerneas, Ho-Oh (if its carrying HP ice), and Arceus-Fairy all tank any hit from Marshadow) are true before you post them
 

lilly momo

Banned deucer.
all the mons that you've mentioned get worn down pretty easily by marshadow
p-don loses to rocks + close combat + soul-stealing nightmare
yveltal takes 66 from close combat
xerneas 50+ after rocks + spectral thief
ho-oh takes 49 from spectral thief

even if marshadow misses out on ohkos, theres little that can switch in on it and do something major back. i agree with nomming it to A+, it singlehandedly made darkceus and ekiller a lot worse, while just being a general nuisance to basically everything in this tier. its super strong
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
all the mons that you've mentioned get worn down pretty easily by marshadow
p-don loses to rocks + close combat + soul-stealing nightmare
yveltal takes 66 from close combat
xerneas 50+ after rocks + spectral thief
ho-oh takes 49 from spectral thief

even if marshadow misses out on ohkos, theres little that can switch in on it and do something major back. i agree with nomming it to A+, it singlehandedly made darkceus and ekiller a lot worse, while just being a general nuisance to basically everything in this tier. its super strong
the definition of a tank is something that can take at least one hit and deal back damage
 
A is exactly where Marshadow belongs. Its a huge threat, but its not all glamor and glory for the little guy. It lacks the ability to safely switch-in to pretty much any offensive threats, even the things that its meant to check. You notice that's a trait most of the mons ranked above it have while also being huge offensive threats on their own. LO Marsh definitely doesn't want to take extra damage, so while it can take ONE hit sometimes, that's usually not going to be what you want it to do. Passive damage racks up on it quickly even though it resists Stealth Rocks as it lacks any viable means of recovery. A lot of its best switch-ins actually have recovery, or even worse in the case of Physically Defensive Ho-oh also having Regenerator. 16% adds up fast, something I found out trying to play Marshadow vs the Stall/Semistall matchup. Even as a huge fan of it, I personally find it being ranked above Ho-Oh a bit much but I really don't have a solid argument against it right now.
 
This post is pure meme because you're calling le mon of missing OHKOs S rank. If it is serious I recommend using this link: https://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/ it shows you exactly how much damage a certain Pokemon does to the other. Like for example you would be able to make sure statements like "Nothing can tank this thing" (even though Primal Groudon, Yveltal, Xerneas, Ho-Oh (if its carrying HP ice), and Arceus-Fairy all tank any hit from Marshadow) are true before you post them
Well you're correct that "nothing can tank this thing" isn't true, but that should not prevent Marshadow from becoming S rank. Suggesting that it rising should require it to be able to OHKO everything in the tier is frankly ridiculous, and I think if you look at the Pokemon in S rank you'll find that they have checks and counters too.

That being said, I do think that S rank is a bit of a stretch for Marshadow at this point in time. While yes it can be difficult to switch into and yes it runs a number of viable sets, its prevalence in the metagame has already quickly resulted in the increased usage of Pokemon such as Arceus-Fairy, Toxapex, and Ho-Oh. Additionally, its relatively poor bulk means that it can be difficult to fit onto more defensively oriented teams because it offers next to no defensive utility (read: difficult, not impossible). Honestly I think A+ is an appropriate rank for it at the moment.

edit: got sniped kinda
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
Well you're correct that "nothing can tank this thing" isn't true, but that should not prevent Marshadow from becoming S rank. Suggesting that it rising should require it to be able to OHKO everything in the tier is frankly ridiculous, and I think if you look at the Pokemon in S rank you'll find that they have checks and counters too.

That being said, I do think that S rank is a bit of a stretch for Marshadow at this point in time. While yes it can be difficult to switch into and yes it runs a number of viable sets, its prevalence in the metagame has already quickly resulted in the increased usage of Pokemon such as Arceus-Fairy, Toxapex, and Ho-Oh. Additionally, its relatively poor bulk means that it can be difficult to fit onto more defensively oriented teams because it offers next to no defensive utility (read: difficult, not impossible). Honestly I think A+ is an appropriate rank for it at the moment.

edit: got sniped kinda
My point was that it Marsh has barely any bulk and therefore in order to be a good offensive threat it needs to OHKO threats. Getting 2HKOs with Pdon isnt a problem since Pdon tanks everything. Marsh gets OHKOd by almost all ubers offensive threats and if it cant get OHKOs all it's doing is dealing 50-90% on most mons and then dying.
 
My point was that it Marsh has barely any bulk and therefore in order to be a good offensive threat it needs to OHKO threats. Getting 2HKOs with Pdon isnt a problem since Pdon tanks everything. Marsh gets OHKOd by almost all ubers offensive threats and if it cant get OHKOs all it's doing is dealing 50-90% on most mons and then dying.
You should understand that I didn't tell Marshadow tanks every attacks. Then what about Darkrai in the last gen? It doesn't tank anything right?. Marshadow isn't a tank. It is an Offensive Pokemon and It gave a way to check Extreme Killer in offensive teams. Don't let me tell that same again. Nothing can actually tank this thing. A+ is the Correct rank for this Pokemon. That's what I said above.
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
You should understand that I didn't tell Marshadow tanks every attacks. Then what about Darkrai in the last gen? It doesn't tank anything right?. Marshadow isn't a tank. It is an Offensive Pokemon and It gave a way to check Extreme Killer in offensive teams. Don't let me tell that same again. Nothing can actually tank this thing. A+ is the Correct rank for this Pokemon. That's what I said above.
Darkrai wouldn't have been as viable as it was without Dark Void, which allowed it to deal damage without having to take hits. Marshadow doesn't have that ability.

Also oml I literally gave you 5 very viable mons that can tank a hit from Marshadow what are you doing my man
 
Noob question, but can I ask why salamence dropped so drastically from ORAS? I just wanna know.

The aerialate nerf was from 1.3 to 1.2 if im not mistaken, which isn't a major difference, right?
Or am I wrong? Im relatively new to SM ubers

Mega mence was the best mega in ORAS,has the metagame changed that significantly?
 
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Ropalme1914

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Noob question, but can I ask why salamence dropped so drastically from ORAS? I just wanna know.

The aerialate nerf was from 1.3 to 1.2 if im not mistaken, which isn't a major difference, right?
Or am I wrong? Im relatively new to SM ubers

Mega mence was the best mega in ORAS,has the metagame changed that significantly?
He did not dropped drastically, he still is A+ and by far the second best mega, behind Gengar (which is not something to be ashamed). The Aerilate nerf does not changed that much for him from what I've saw, it just made Double-Edge gain a lot more popularity than Return when you compare to the last gen. The thing is, SM introduced things like Solgaleo who resist Flying (but Solgaleo is not that relevant), Lunala with Shadow Shield, which can take a hit and revenge kill with Ice Beam and Marshadow who can outspeed it if unboosted and hit with HP Ice, and even Zygarde, who can eat Salamence hits and paralyze/phase it. However, it still got things good to him like Primal Kyogre being more common, and even some Arceus-Water lacking Ice Beam to use Judgment. He still is close to a top 5 mon.
 

Exiline

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ORAS metagame was super offensive, and salamence was one of the best offense's tool but also one of the best mon against offense aswell with its access to indimidate paired with a pretty good natural bulk and a blessed defensive typing (being immune to pdon main stab and resisting its second stab is marvelous). It was also pretty threatening as with dragon dance it could sweep offense pretty much all by itself or weaken opposing defog arceus/lugia to open the path to your other sweepers (in the case of offense).

However SM metagame is much more fat, and the poor dragon struggles a lot against bulkier team. this along with the addition of celesteela(mence can't do shit against this mon)/zygarde/magearna(as you barely have the room for ground coverage) or even Lunala which can revenge kill it fairly easily in more offensive build with shadow shield up makes salamence job much more difficult.

After reading this again I feel like I described salamence as a "just above average mon" but it's still pretty effective mon as the A+ rank show you.
Defog mence is pretty good in the meta and dd set can pressure arceus pretty hard (you can even trade hit on arceus which will be pretty much dead after a boosted double edge +1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Arceus-Ground: 339-400 (76.3 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). With his raw bulk and nice typing it still check a lot of thing like lucario (if jolly nature), groudon, ho-oh etc...
but it will always struggles against celesteela or lugia squads.
 
One last question lol. Why is Arceus ground S rank? It checks P groudon, sure, but how has it become meta defining to the point in that it becomes S rank?
 
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