Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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I'm not one to usually post in this thread, and while I'm not necessarily against a Keldeo drop, I think you're discounting a very important factor: CM Taunt Keldeo.

While underutilized atm, this is, IMO, one of Keldeo's more effective sets as it can 1v1 every standard Keldeo switchin besides the Lati twins and Bulu. While those are definitely prominent, it means that teams can't actually rely on defensive answers like Toxapex to handle Keldeo, since it's literally setup fodder for it, whether it is Z move or Leftovers. Z move especially is actually very useful vs most stall builds, considering it will get at least 1 kill against them, since it can break through stall's answers to it(besides Bulu). It also provides a decent answer to Vincune, considering it can sort of stop it due to Taunt. Of course, this, like Specs, comes at the cost of being a severely worse Ash Gren answer(can only come in once on both specs and Z move), not being able to check Volcarona etc.

As for your Garchomp comparison, Z move can also do the things you mentioned in your post; it 1v1s Tangrowth and Pex, can do well vs some Zard Y builds while still being able to check everything its fantastic typing allows it to.

Another unexplored area for Keldeo, is, IMO, Veil. While not being the most threatening setup sweeper, it helps the matchup vs both Gren forms, Charizard Y, Ttar and SD Zor, which is starting to resurface as a reliable way of beating Veil. I'll be the first to admit I haven't done enough testing with and might be sort of talking out of my ass, but it might be decent.

Despite this, a Keldeo drop is certainly not out of the question. Every set has flaws that are prominent and with the introduction of Mega Latias and Mega Altaria, who very much trouble it, it's definitely a candidate for one.
Thank you for the insightful response. You are right that I did leave out CM sets, and you do have a good point with taunt cm beating a lot of standard switch ins. It has to be careful of scald burns, but even then it can beat stuff like Pex, Mantine, and Suicune. However, it still struggles with stall because of unaware Clef. Even if you run z move, you're still going to struggle to beat the Clef switch.

Edit: Wrong EV spread for Clef, my apologies.

However, with a bit of chip damage on Clef, you can definitely cause some serious damage, assuming you're able to keep Pex's toxic spikes off the field. I don't agree with it being a guaranteed kill against stall, unless you're willing to run hydro pump over scald. If this is the set you are referring to, then my apologies, as this set would give stall quite a headache, though I think in general scald is the preferred option.
 
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talah

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Thank you for the insightful response. You are right that I did leave out CM sets, and you do have a good point with taunt cm beating a lot of standard switch ins. It has to be careful of scald burns, but even then it can beat stuff like Pex, Mantine, and Suicune. However, it still struggles with stall because of unaware Clef. Even if you run z move, you're still going to struggle to beat the Clef switch.

252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Vortex (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Clefable: 211-250 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Clefable: 106-126 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- 40.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

You roll a max of 95.3%, which means with leftovers and rocks (a generous assumption given stall's ridiculous hazard control), you can max roll 101.5%. Scoring the 2HKO is very unlikely. This is assuming you even go for the scald straight away, as opposed to trying to calm mind on Pex as they switch to Clef. Even if you go straight for the attack, you're at the very best looking at a prediction war of you taunting on Clef's softboiled versus tanking 2 moonblasts and dying, or going for the hydro vortex as she heals out of the KO range from 2 subsequent scalds. If you opt for the taunt, you can leave the Clef severely weakened but you'll go down in the process.

However, with a bit of chip damage on Clef, you can definitely cause some serious damage, assuming you're able to keep Pex's toxic spikes off the field. I don't agree with it being a guaranteed kill against stall, unless you're willing to run hydro pump over scald. If this is the set you are referring to, then my apologies, as this set would give stall quite a headache, though I think in general scald is the preferred option.
Well, Clef on stall will not run such a spdef heavy spread unless I've missed a wave, which makes the kill virtually guaranteed. Also, the Z move of choice will usually be Hydro or Surf(I personally like Surf more for the consistency, others prefer Hydro), so it should pretty much always be able to nab Clef, potentially with no chip damage on Keldeo if played well.

EDIT: so this isn't a one liner, I'd like to spark some discussion on Mega Latias.

Between its CM sets(CM Stored Power is likely the most effective) and defensive sets(Defog, Reflect Type) it could justify a slot for a lot of balance teams, since depending on its set it can deal with Z move Lando variants very efficiently, beat every Magearna variant besides Z Fleur Cannon, beat some Zard Y builds, check things like Zygarde, as well as a lot more which I can go through in detail later if need be and just being a pain in the ass for most styles to deal with.

It also could have viability in Veil although from what I've noticed it tends to lack initial kill pressure, which can be dangerous for a team like Veil.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but Clef runs almost full physdef, so I'm not sure where the Calm 192+ set is coming from. I personally think Keldeo is fine in A, as it's still a reliable revenge killer with Scarf but packs a good surprise element with CM sets and also Specs.

I agree with a Mew drop. Sure, it's still splashable and a good defogger, but Latios has been finding its way on more teams due to its higher offensive presence + synergy. This is also not to mention that most Mews are purely running Ice Beam, which isn't hard to take advantage of, especially given the fact that the only other way it's causing harm is with WoW. It invites fire types such as Zard-Y, Camerupt, Alolan-Wak, and Heatran in for free and certain playstyles like TR (saw a lot of usage in OLT) have too many ways to abuse its passiveness.
Well, Clef on stall will not run such a spdef heavy spread unless I've missed a wave, which makes the kill virtually guaranteed. Also, the Z move of choice will usually be Hydro or Surf(I personally like Surf more for the consistency, others prefer Hydro), so it should pretty much always be able to nab Clef, potentially with no chip damage on Keldeo if played well.

EDIT: so this isn't a one liner, I'd like to spark some discussion on Mega Latias.

Between its CM sets(CM Stored Power is likely the most effective) and defensive sets(Defog, Reflect Type) it could justify a slot for a lot of balance teams, since depending on its set it can deal with Z move Lando variants very efficiently, beat every Magearna variant besides Z Fleur Cannon, beat some Zard Y builds, check things like Zygarde, as well as a lot more which I can go through in detail later if need be and just being a pain in the ass for most styles to deal with.

It also could have viability in Veil although from what I've noticed it tends to lack initial kill pressure, which can be dangerous for a team like Veil.
I just clicked "OU unaware wall" on the damage calc- it seems I was wrong and this is not the spread commonly used for stall Clef. My bad.
 
I'm not one to usually post in this thread, and while I'm not necessarily against a Keldeo drop, I think you're discounting a very important factor: CM Taunt Keldeo.

While underutilized atm, this is, IMO, one of Keldeo's more effective sets as it can 1v1 every standard Keldeo switchin besides the Lati twins and Bulu. While those are definitely prominent, it means that teams can't actually rely on defensive answers like Toxapex to handle Keldeo, since it's literally setup fodder for it, whether it is Z move or Leftovers. Z move especially is actually very useful vs most stall builds, considering it will get at least 1 kill against them, since it can break through stall's answers to it(besides Bulu). It also provides a decent answer to Vincune, considering it can sort of stop it due to Taunt. Of course, this, like Specs, comes at the cost of being a severely worse Ash Gren answer(can only come in once on both specs and Z move), not being able to check Volcarona etc.

As for your Garchomp comparison, Z move can also do the things you mentioned in your post; it 1v1s Tangrowth and Pex, can do well vs some Zard Y builds while still being able to check everything its fantastic typing allows it to.

Another unexplored area for Keldeo, is, IMO, Veil. While not being the most threatening setup sweeper, it helps the matchup vs both Gren forms, Charizard Y, Ttar and SD Zor, which is starting to resurface as a reliable way of beating Veil. I'll be the first to admit I haven't done enough testing with and might be sort of talking out of my ass, but it might be decent.

Despite this, a Keldeo drop is certainly not out of the question. Every set has flaws that are prominent and with the introduction of Mega Latias and Mega Altaria, who very much trouble it, it's definitely a candidate for one.
See, even though this may be true, due to competition Keldeo isn't a go to mon when building a team anymore. Greninja has a much better speed tier and is infinitely harder to check, and mons like Tapu Koko, AV Tang, Latios, Pex, etc has caused Keldeo to be not as bs as it was last gen. Even with CM Normalium Z being a thing, it's a bit of a sacrifice and most Keldeos end up being scarfed to be better vs offense. (which is a pretty bad set imo since you're still sacking a lot of momentum and minus being able to reliably check Gren it's bleh but I digress) Keldeo's not a staple of the meta anymore, it's significantly less consistent with its usefulness, unlike everything in A, and should honestly drop.
 
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Just because Dug potentially makes or breaks playstyle(s) doesn't mean that it should be S, compare it to something like Gothitelle last gen which was no higher than B+ despite being a staple on stall and finding use on other teams such as removing fat stuff for Zard / Gyara etc. When you look at Dug, nothing screams inherent S rank qualities that something such as Lando-T or Magearna currently have, it's just simply not an S rank pokemon no matter how you put it.

Bludz's post summed it up well. While it has an extremely powerful niche in the tier, it just doesn't have the versatility, unpredictability, and incredible breaking or sweeping potential that the other mons in S rank have, it has absolutely no defensive synergy with other mons, it's not something you can just slap onto a build like Lando-T or Mag either. And no, Dugtrio is not splashable, you really don't fit it into a wide variety of builds (ZardY + stall teams is not a wide variety btw), at least absolutely not near the same extent as current S mons.

If you need me to elaborate more I will, but as it stands Dug is not really S material and some of us would rather see Pokemon like Ash Gren there instead.
I see that you guys put a lot of emphasis on versatility but the fact that the styles that use Dugtrio (ZardY and Stall) are so popular and make about 50% of high ladder means that they have the best success thus the best VIABILITY and are the most efficient tactic available. Its 68% winrate in wcop as 6th used pokemon should be abysmal enough to prove this point and ranking Dugtrio as anything other than S-rank because it doesn't do anything besides trapping 1-2 mons that'd beat u otherwise is simply a failure of the system.

tl;dr: Versatility shouldn't define viability, my exodia FTK deck with all banned cards doesnt do anything else except for winning that one way either.

Oh, also the comparison to Goth is laughable at best. While Goth was trapping a few problematic slow stallbreaker Dugtrio is trapping the entire tier. U wanna trap Heatran/Tyranitar? No problem there is this mon called Dugtrio... U wanna trap Chansey/Clefable? Well I've heard of this mon called Dugtrio it can really mess up some walls with Screech. U wanna trap some offensive stuff like fucking Medicham? Dugtrio's got u covered!
 
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Just ramblings on Dugtrio at 4:30 in the morning, so sorry if I sound even more incoherent than usual.

Dugtrio A+ ---> S: Undecided.

Personally, I'd be fine if it rises and I'd be fine if it stays. Both sides have some very valid points and I can see it going either way. However, I don't think we should be discarding the idea of raising it just because Dugtrio isn't as viable in just about any given 1v1 as Lando-T or Magearna, or even because it isn't as splashable as those two. The argument for Dugtrio is not based on its versatility or its assets as an individual Pokemon but rather on the absurd team support it offers. When it comes to team support, I don't think it's unfair to say Dugtrio is absolutely unparalleled in the current metagame, thanks to its ability to nearly guarantee the removal of problematic Pokemon for its teammates. This is nothing we don't already know.

This ability creates an interesting dynamic where Dugtrio actually makes its teammates more viable, which I think is difficult to really pin down and quantify with its own ranking. This is part of the reason why I don't really care whether or not it rises, but adding Dugtrio to a team will inherently increase the value of certain teammates within a match. For example, let's look at Volcarona. Volcarona struggles to break through Pokemon such as Toxapex, Heatran, and Tyranitar without packing certain specifically tailored coverage moves, meaning on its own it can struggle to pull off a sweep against many teams. However, add Dugtrio into the mix and suddenly Toxapex, Heatran, and Tyranitar are no longer surefire checks to Volcarona, as they are prone to being trapped and removed by Dugtrio before they can accomplish their job. This means that Volcarona inherently becomes more of a threat when backed by Dugtrio than when not, as its checks must be played sparingly and cautiously lest they be trapped by Dugtrio.

This ability to assist its teammates is not unique to Dugtrio, indeed it is shared by literally any support Pokemon. However, the extent to which Dugtrio supports its team is far beyond any other Pokemon and I think there's an argument to make its rank reflect that. Nothing else can even pretend to do what Dugtrio does and its impact on the metagame is undeniable.

On the other hand Dugtrio is extremely one dimensional (It traps grounded Pokemon. That's it.), lacks the level of splashability that Lando-T and Magearna possess, and many things that it's supposed to trap have adapted ways of dealing with it or at least discourage it from coming in (Shed Shell Toxapex, Substitute + Magma Storm Heatran, etc), which are all strong arguments against it rising, so I'm still undecided.

I dunno, that's all I wanted to say really. I think any discussion about Dugtrio should be focused not on Dugtrio as an individual Pokemon but what Dugtrio offers to a team, because that's where its viability lies, and I think it could be argued that what Dugtrio offers to its team makes it worthy of consideration for S rank, although I'm still undecided on that nomination myself.
 
They said they aren't considering a Dugtrio raise so this conversation will be fruitless. Idk how you can compare a pokemon that traps a specific set of pokemon with each set on the same level of two of the most versatile and consistent pokemon we've ever had in the tier.
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-> C+
its extremely underprepped for rn and its super easy to come in on MewMageCharClefTang and fire off a broken STAB. Especially when more offensive oriented teams use Keldeo / Gren as the pivot into resists, but these get cooked. Rising fat waters like MantineGastro are pressured by Ghost STAB and tricking them. sub cm is a thing iirc but why use that when everything dies to overheat.

It has serious problems that hold it back from B- imo like vs Veil they get up the screen and now youre literally set up fodder vs extremely threating pokemon like Manaphy, Zygarde, Tyranitar, Suicune. Its also bad vs rain, but at least less so. Its also extremely weak to hazards, which is an abysmal trait to have right now. Like (T)Spikes are more relevant than they have ever been with premier users like GrenToxFerro. Rocks are broken.

raise houndoom
 
They said they aren't considering a Dugtrio raise so this conversation will be fruitless. Idk how you can compare a pokemon that traps a specific set of pokemon with each set on the same level of two of the most versatile and consistent pokemon we've ever had in the tier.
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-> C+
its extremely underprepped for rn and its super easy to come in on MewMageCharClefTang and fire off a broken STAB. Especially when more offensive oriented teams use Keldeo / Gren as the pivot into resists, but these get cooked. Rising fat waters like MantineGastro are pressured by Ghost STAB and tricking them. sub cm is a thing iirc but why use that when everything dies to overheat.

It has serious problems that hold it back from B- imo like vs Veil they get up the screen and now youre literally set up fodder vs extremely threating pokemon like Manaphy, Zygarde, Tyranitar, Suicune. Its also bad vs rain, but at least less so. Its also extremely weak to hazards, which is an abysmal trait to have right now. Like (T)Spikes are more relevant than they have ever been with premier users like GrenToxFerro. Rocks are broken.

raise houndoom
Maybe, this idea is a little bit to gimmicky, but you could use Bloom Doom Solar Beam like Heatran did it in early SM to handle bulky waters and Tyranitar (at least outside of Veil). But yeah, Swift Swimmers and Veil are horrible matchups for Lure

Chandelure @ Grassium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Solar Beam
- Taunt

252 SpA Chandelure Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 450-530 (131.5 - 154.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Chandelure Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Suicune: 390-460 (96.5 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Chandelure Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 358-422 (104.3 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Chandelure Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 256-302 (75 - 88.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Chandelure Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 228 SpD Pelipper: 227-268 (70.2 - 82.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
The difference between Heatran and Chandelure is Chandelure having Ghost STAB with which you can 2HKO every Watertype by using Specs which reduces the need for a luremove like Z-Solar Beam.

Right now I have a discussionpoint for you guys because I am really not sure if Keldeo should rise or not. The specific Set I am talking about is one that was already mentioned and it is
CM Taunt with Z-Hydro Pump and Secret Sword

Aside from the obvious things such as preventing Defogs against Mantines and Mews easily, I think this Set has a solid Matchup against every archetype rn:

- Veil: Stops Suicune, Lando-T and Zygarde from setting up with Taunt and strong Z-Hydro
- Rain: Being a Watertype that can beat Ferro is great to not get oneshit by Kingdra and family while dealing out massive damages. Also one of the very few checks to Specs Ash Gren in Rain. Koko is annoying though and Chople Berry on Ferrothorn
- Trick Room: The matchup against Trick Room is also acceptable if you remove Mega Mawile from the equation because you can use the Trick Room Setters, except for Magearna, as CM fodder. You also check Crawdaunt which is nice.
- Stall: Usual hard counters like Toxapex are now setupfodder lol. Z-Dugtrio is annoying but getting a kill and forcing that mons Z-Move is already amazing. If it is Sash Dugtrio after succesfully getting up Rocks, you can even kill Pex, Dugtrio and weaken Unaware Clef.
- Sticky Web: Well this one is easy. Lead with it, Taunt Smeargle and hit that CM button. You can prevent Sticky Webs and break Mimikyus disguise which is amazing. Alternativly keep Keldeo in the back to check Bisharp lategame. Against Shuckle variants you can always CM turn 1 coz nobody has the balls to Encore a Keldeo turn 1. If they Encore you turn 2 on Secret Sword, you can still Z-Hydro Pump something like Mimikyu who thinks he gets a free setup lol. But if you see your opponents Websteam has an Azu to check Keldeo even at +1, you can decide to keep Keldeo healthy for lategame Bisharps or heavily weaken Azu beyond Belly Drum.
- Balance: The only mons that come to mind as traditional Keldeo answers are Mega Latias, Mega Venu, Mantine, Toxapex and maybe a Mew if healthy enough. With CM+Taunt you beat them all except for Mega Venu and Lati. Even then, some Venus do not even run Giga Drain for Leech Seed or Earthquake. Mega Latis are bulky and usually just outspeed Garchomp for bulk purposes. This means you can CM on the switch, CM on the probable CM or Thunderbolt and then CM a last time to 2HKO with Secret Sword after Rocks. Choice Band TTar+CM Taunt Keldeo should break every balance team in existence.

When looking at the mons from B to S, this Keldeo beats these mons 100% in 1vs1:
Landorus-T, Celesteela, Dugtrio, Gren, Heatran, Mew, Pex, Volcarona, Zard Y, Zygarde (unless Z-Outrage), Clefable, Chomp, Heracross, Swampert (even in Rain), Mawile, Scizor, Medicham, Pinsir, Sableye, Chansey, Skarmory, TTar, Zapdos, Pelipper, Mantine, Lele (unless Scarf), Bisharp, Marowak, Magnezone, Weavile, Rotom-W, Gengar (unless Z-Thunderbolt or Specs Thunderbolt), Alomomola, Exca, Mamo, Terrakion

Z-Hydro Pump is even stronger than Modest Specs Kingdra in Rain just to show you how strong that move is:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele in Rain: 259-306 (92.1 - 108.8%)
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 265-313 (94.3 - 111.3%)


Some other interesting Calcs to show the limited amount of mons thought to be counters:
+1 252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 234-276 (83.2 - 98.2%) (need a lil bit chip)
+2 252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 239-282 (69.6 - 82.2%) (CM on Switch, CM on the Natures Madness, Hydro Vortex+Secret Sword kills Fini while Madness+Moonblast does max 89.6% damage)

You can also always fake being Scarf but this should be obvious.

What are you thoughts? Should Keldeo stay A or rise to A+?
 
To my suprise the council has already acknowledged Infernape being worth ranking by putting him in C+, afaik this is solely due to his scarf set so I'm here to show a totally different side of infernape which should warrant a rise to B- atleast.

This is a set I created around 2 months ago because I just felt like using infernape. I looked into how Infernape could do it's job in this metagame and at first I too settled on the scarf set but I wasn't satisfied with it. I wanted to make Infernape a bigger player on the team and so it happened.



Infernape @ Firium Z
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Mach Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Flare Blitz
- Swords Dance

This set already was a problem for the metagame back then but it puts in more work now as the meta turned even more vulnerable to it.

Two crucial tips to using this infernape.
1. Make sure SR's are up.
2. Don't go in if you can't get a SD.

No Close Combat is a shame, but you should go into the game thinking your opponent doesn't know this which will grant you oppurtunities to boost or catch your opponent off guard with the Mach Punch. Obviously getting a SD up is very important to this set if you want to unleash it's potential.

A few calc's of mon's that are going to be switched in against you.

+1 252 Atk Infernape Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 316-373 (82.7 - 97.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Infernape Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 240 HP / 72+ Def Mew: 450-529 (112.2 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 186-220 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 296-350 (86.2 - 102%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 220-260 (64.1 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

BTW a resisted +2 Z Flare Blitz is nothing to laugh at either...

+2 252 Atk Infernape Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 318-375 (106.3 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Infernape Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 289-341 (89.4 - 105.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Infernape Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 276-326 (77 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Infernape Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 225-265 (62.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 115-136 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Infernape Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gastrodon: 361-426 (84.7 - 100%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock



And a few replays to show how it's done.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-616595052
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-616114922
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-616601248

This is my first time writing something like this so it may not be well done but I hope you all got my point.
 
The difference between Heatran and Chandelure is Chandelure having Ghost STAB with which you can 2HKO every Watertype by using Specs which reduces the need for a luremove like Z-Solar Beam.

Right now I have a discussionpoint for you guys because I am really not sure if Keldeo should rise or not. The specific Set I am talking about is one that was already mentioned and it is
CM Taunt with Z-Hydro Pump and Secret Sword

Aside from the obvious things such as preventing Defogs against Mantines and Mews easily, I think this Set has a solid Matchup against every archetype rn:

- Veil: Stops Suicune, Lando-T and Zygarde from setting up with Taunt and strong Z-Hydro
- Rain: Being a Watertype that can beat Ferro is great to not get oneshit by Kingdra and family while dealing out massive damages. Also one of the very few checks to Specs Ash Gren in Rain. Koko is annoying though and Chople Berry on Ferrothorn
- Trick Room: The matchup against Trick Room is also acceptable if you remove Mega Mawile from the equation because you can use the Trick Room Setters, except for Magearna, as CM fodder. You also check Crawdaunt which is nice.
- Stall: Usual hard counters like Toxapex are now setupfodder lol. Z-Dugtrio is annoying but getting a kill and forcing that mons Z-Move is already amazing. If it is Sash Dugtrio after succesfully getting up Rocks, you can even kill Pex, Dugtrio and weaken Unaware Clef.
- Sticky Web: Well this one is easy. Lead with it, Taunt Smeargle and hit that CM button. You can prevent Sticky Webs and break Mimikyus disguise which is amazing. Alternativly keep Keldeo in the back to check Bisharp lategame. Against Shuckle variants you can always CM turn 1 coz nobody has the balls to Encore a Keldeo turn 1. If they Encore you turn 2 on Secret Sword, you can still Z-Hydro Pump something like Mimikyu who thinks he gets a free setup lol. But if you see your opponents Websteam has an Azu to check Keldeo even at +1, you can decide to keep Keldeo healthy for lategame Bisharps or heavily weaken Azu beyond Belly Drum.
- Balance: The only mons that come to mind as traditional Keldeo answers are Mega Latias, Mega Venu, Mantine, Toxapex and maybe a Mew if healthy enough. With CM+Taunt you beat them all except for Mega Venu and Lati. Even then, some Venus do not even run Giga Drain for Leech Seed or Earthquake. Mega Latis are bulky and usually just outspeed Garchomp for bulk purposes. This means you can CM on the switch, CM on the probable CM or Thunderbolt and then CM a last time to 2HKO with Secret Sword after Rocks. Choice Band TTar+CM Taunt Keldeo should break every balance team in existence.

When looking at the mons from B to S, this Keldeo beats these mons 100% in 1vs1:
Landorus-T, Celesteela, Dugtrio, Gren, Heatran, Mew, Pex, Volcarona, Zard Y, Zygarde (unless Z-Outrage), Clefable, Chomp, Heracross, Swampert (even in Rain), Mawile, Scizor, Medicham, Pinsir, Sableye, Chansey, Skarmory, TTar, Zapdos, Pelipper, Mantine, Lele (unless Scarf), Bisharp, Marowak, Magnezone, Weavile, Rotom-W, Gengar (unless Z-Thunderbolt or Specs Thunderbolt), Alomomola, Exca, Mamo, Terrakion

Z-Hydro Pump is even stronger than Modest Specs Kingdra in Rain just to show you how strong that move is:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele in Rain: 259-306 (92.1 - 108.8%)
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 265-313 (94.3 - 111.3%)


Some other interesting Calcs to show the limited amount of mons thought to be counters:
+1 252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 234-276 (83.2 - 98.2%) (need a lil bit chip)
+2 252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 239-282 (69.6 - 82.2%) (CM on Switch, CM on the Natures Madness, Hydro Vortex+Secret Sword kills Fini while Madness+Moonblast does max 89.6% damage)

You can also always fake being Scarf but this should be obvious.

What are you thoughts? Should Keldeo stay A or rise to A+?
I do think the calm mind set is very good for Keld especially since you can bluff scarf really easily but to me it would be a reason to keep it at A not raise it to A+. Scarf and Specs have both gotten worse recently imo due to the usage things like Toxapex are seeing and if it wasn't for the CM/taunt set keldeo probably belongs a lot more in A- than A.
 

mushamu

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The difference between Heatran and Chandelure is Chandelure having Ghost STAB with which you can 2HKO every Watertype by using Specs which reduces the need for a luremove like Z-Solar Beam.

Right now I have a discussionpoint for you guys because I am really not sure if Keldeo should rise or not. The specific Set I am talking about is one that was already mentioned and it is
CM Taunt with Z-Hydro Pump and Secret Sword

Aside from the obvious things such as preventing Defogs against Mantines and Mews easily, I think this Set has a solid Matchup against every archetype rn:

- Veil: Stops Suicune, Lando-T and Zygarde from setting up with Taunt and strong Z-Hydro
- Rain: Being a Watertype that can beat Ferro is great to not get oneshit by Kingdra and family while dealing out massive damages. Also one of the very few checks to Specs Ash Gren in Rain. Koko is annoying though and Chople Berry on Ferrothorn
- Trick Room: The matchup against Trick Room is also acceptable if you remove Mega Mawile from the equation because you can use the Trick Room Setters, except for Magearna, as CM fodder. You also check Crawdaunt which is nice.
- Stall: Usual hard counters like Toxapex are now setupfodder lol. Z-Dugtrio is annoying but getting a kill and forcing that mons Z-Move is already amazing. If it is Sash Dugtrio after succesfully getting up Rocks, you can even kill Pex, Dugtrio and weaken Unaware Clef.
- Sticky Web: Well this one is easy. Lead with it, Taunt Smeargle and hit that CM button. You can prevent Sticky Webs and break Mimikyus disguise which is amazing. Alternativly keep Keldeo in the back to check Bisharp lategame. Against Shuckle variants you can always CM turn 1 coz nobody has the balls to Encore a Keldeo turn 1. If they Encore you turn 2 on Secret Sword, you can still Z-Hydro Pump something like Mimikyu who thinks he gets a free setup lol. But if you see your opponents Websteam has an Azu to check Keldeo even at +1, you can decide to keep Keldeo healthy for lategame Bisharps or heavily weaken Azu beyond Belly Drum.
- Balance: The only mons that come to mind as traditional Keldeo answers are Mega Latias, Mega Venu, Mantine, Toxapex and maybe a Mew if healthy enough. With CM+Taunt you beat them all except for Mega Venu and Lati. Even then, some Venus do not even run Giga Drain for Leech Seed or Earthquake. Mega Latis are bulky and usually just outspeed Garchomp for bulk purposes. This means you can CM on the switch, CM on the probable CM or Thunderbolt and then CM a last time to 2HKO with Secret Sword after Rocks. Choice Band TTar+CM Taunt Keldeo should break every balance team in existence.

When looking at the mons from B to S, this Keldeo beats these mons 100% in 1vs1:
Landorus-T, Celesteela, Dugtrio, Gren, Heatran, Mew, Pex, Volcarona, Zard Y, Zygarde (unless Z-Outrage), Clefable, Chomp, Heracross, Swampert (even in Rain), Mawile, Scizor, Medicham, Pinsir, Sableye, Chansey, Skarmory, TTar, Zapdos, Pelipper, Mantine, Lele (unless Scarf), Bisharp, Marowak, Magnezone, Weavile, Rotom-W, Gengar (unless Z-Thunderbolt or Specs Thunderbolt), Alomomola, Exca, Mamo, Terrakion

Z-Hydro Pump is even stronger than Modest Specs Kingdra in Rain just to show you how strong that move is:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele in Rain: 259-306 (92.1 - 108.8%)
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 265-313 (94.3 - 111.3%)


Some other interesting Calcs to show the limited amount of mons thought to be counters:
+1 252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 234-276 (83.2 - 98.2%) (need a lil bit chip)
+2 252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 239-282 (69.6 - 82.2%) (CM on Switch, CM on the Natures Madness, Hydro Vortex+Secret Sword kills Fini while Madness+Moonblast does max 89.6% damage)

You can also always fake being Scarf but this should be obvious.

What are you thoughts? Should Keldeo stay A or rise to A+?
Keldeo isn't rising to A+ imo. Not only does CM + Taunt + Z-Hydro Pump miss out on beating Volc and Lele, it takes up a Z move and after you're worn down you're trapped by duggy and killed with groundium z or sash. I think CM + Taunt Keldeo is more of a nuke than a sweeper with Mons like Mega Venusaur, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Lele, and Duggy rising. I'd put Keldeo at A for now because of its two sets (calm mind and scarf).
 
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MegaStarUniverse

Banned deucer.
yea people suggesting keldeo to drop from A should really know how good CM Taunt Z-Hydro Pump is. i agree with all the points robopoke made simply because it does something vs a lot of common match ups such as BO, Webs, Veil, Rain etc. Yeah A+ is actually too much right now but its fine in A.
 
There's no reason to theorymon about how great a Pokemon is when we're talking about A ranks, the rank where every Pokemon are go to Pokemon when you're building a team, with A- for the still metagame relevant but less abusable Pokemon. The fact that we're talking about a set which, while good, isn't the most common set and on a Pokemon that's dropping in usage and has only gotten worse with metagame trends. I don't know, it sounds like a desperate response to hype a Pokemon up way more than it actually is. Keldeo is way far off from a standard go to mon, it's something that's a good mon but is way more niche and designed more for a specific Pokemon rather than an archetype or overall consistency in the meta since most teams have 3 solid checks to Keldeo and with Scarf being by far the most splashable due to being one of the few offensive Gren checks, (this is the main reason why people run Keldeo) Keldeo typically isn't the greatest vs bulky offense and sucks vs balanced.

Like the argument "Oh I think you're forgetting about this relatively lesser used option that still makes it great" is something designed for the C's and B's where the Pokemon there are meant to handle specific Pokemon and far less versatile are for. It doesn't work when you're comparing it to Char Y, Tangrowth, Heatran, etc lol.
 
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Metal Sonic

Resurgence
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Hi, I don't really visit the OU Viability Rankings much since it's so crowded here, but I'd like to propose a rise for Victini to be ranked higher:


Popularised by my RMT: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-won-rmt-of-the-week-25.3607592/#post-7470267 where Victini was the main focus of the team. In practice, Victini is extremely anti-meta (I haven't played OU recently, but as of 2 weeks ago when I last played, it was still extremely viable and deadly)

C- is quite unacceptable for a very splashable wallbreaker that has access to a 180 BP spammable move with 100% Accuracy, making it as strong, or even stronger, than some Z-moves. There are currently very few Fire-resists in the metagame; and those that do so are either 2HKO'd by V-Create itself (Keldeo) or are Water-types that take heavy damage from Bolt Strike (130 BP) [Toxapex and Tapu Fini is 2HKOed]. An exception is Heatran, which Victini can pivot out of using U-turn, before punishing it with potentially the currently controversial Dugtrio.

Apart from using Choice Scarf, which was the set featured in my RMT, Victini has access to creative yet viable sets, such as (Life Orb) Mixed Blue Flare; Icium Z Glaciate, or even Choice Band for even crazier wallbreaking potential. Access to a wide movepool that include Final Gambit, Focus Blast, Trick, Thunder Wave (?????), Will-O-Wisp (???????????) can allow for users to become extremely creative, especially with the usually-neglected ability Victory Star, which boosts the accuracy of the recently nerfed moves (Thunder Wave spam, anyone?). I'm not saying that the aforementioned moves are common, but they certainly allow for experimentation and creative building. A more accurate Focus Blast is always welcome.

Victini is able to counter Magearna (resists Fairy, Steel, Ice) and 2HKOs the tier's most common physical "wall", Landorus-T. It is able to punish Tangrowth, and lure stuff like Heatran, Toxapex, maybe Chansey, pivot out of it with U-turn, and potentially send them into Dugtrio for the opponent to experience hell. The Choice Scarf set is single-handedly able to OHKO frail wallbreakers without any consideration (Mega Lopunny, Greninja, Volcarona, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele). Users may find that the 8 PP of V-Create is surprisingly insufficient for such an awesome breaker like Victini. And it has respectable bulk too: 100/100/100 is Mew-level, and we all know how irritating it already is uninvested. Read: Victini can usually survive a single super effective attack from most.

I don't know how many people will agree with me, or how good they believe Victini to be, but this is undeniable: With all the aforementioned advantages and positive traits, being able to hold its own against the S-rank threats and even most of the tier's A-rank threats, Victini should not be in C- rank. I propose somewhere like B- to B+, but that is debatable.

Would love to see what others think about this proposal.
 
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Hi, I don't really visit the OU Viability Rankings much since it's so crowded here, but I'd like to propose a rise for Victini to be ranked higher:


Popularised by my RMT: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-won-rmt-of-the-week-25.3607592/#post-7470267 where Victini was the main focus of the team. In practice, Victini is extremely anti-meta (I haven't played OU recently, but as of 2 weeks ago when I last played, it was still extremely viable and deadly)

C- is quite unacceptable for a very splashable wallbreaker that has access to a 180 BP spammable move with 100% Accuracy, making it as strong, or even stronger, than some Z-moves. There are currently very few Fire-resists in the metagame; and those that do so are either 2HKO'd by V-Create itself (Keldeo) or are Water-types that take heavy damage from Bolt Strike (130 BP) [Toxapex is 2HKOed]. An exception is Heatran, which Victini can pivot out of using U-turn, before punishing it with potentially the currently controversial Dugtrio.

Apart from using Choice Scarf, which was the set featured in my RMT, Victini has access to creative yet viable sets, such as (Life Orb) Mixed Blue Flare; Icium Z Glaciate, or even Choice Band for even crazier wallbreaking potential. Access to a wide movepool that include Final Gambit, Focus Blast, Trick, Thunder Wave (?????), Will-O-Wisp (???????????) can allow for users to become extremely creative, especially with the usually-neglected ability Victory Star, which boosts the accuracy of the recently nerfed moves (Thunder Wave spam, anyone?). I'm not saying that the aforementioned moves are common, but they certainly allow for experimentation and creative building. A more accurate Focus Blast is always welcome.

Victini is able to counter Magearna (resists Fairy, Steel, Ice) and 2HKOs the tier's most common physical "wall", Landorus-T. It is able to punish Tangrowth, and lure stuff like Heatran, Toxapex, maybe Chansey, pivot out of it with U-turn, and potentially send them into Dugtrio for the opponent to experience hell. The Choice Scarf set is single-handedly able to OHKO frail wallbreakers without any consideration (Mega Lopunny, Greninja, Volcarona). Users may find that the 8 PP of V-Create is surprisingly insufficient for such an awesome breaker like Victini. And it has respectable bulk too: 100/100/100 is Mew-level, and we all know how irritating it already is uninvested.

I don't know how many people will agree with me, or how good they believe Victini to be, but this is undeniable: With all the aforementioned advantages and positive traits, being able to hold its own against the S-rank threats and even most of the tier's A-rank threats, Victini should not be in C- rank. I propose somewhere like B- to B+, but that is debatable.

Would love to see what others think about this proposal.
Let's not give yourself too much credit, here: Victini was not popularized by your RMT, and frankly it isn't even popular, period.

I don't see how listing all of Victini's options helps me understand the mon, especially when all of your suggested moves and sets bar like 2 are borderline gimmicks or simply unviable. With your argumentation you'd have a field day making Mew sound broken.
I don't see how having a Fire type that lets itself be revenge killed every time it uses its main STAB is helpful to the majority of teams when so many other Fire types exist. Being weak to all entry hazards severely cuts into its supposed bulk, not that its typing does it any favors in this regard. I'm a huge fan of losing my breaker to both Dugtrio and Pursuit, thanks. Oh right, the scarf set also dies because V-Create lowers your own speed...
Its only niche is being a Fire-type with access to Electric + Ice coverage, which sounds fantastic until you realize that it has a subpar matchup into virtually every playstyle even though it beats some highly ranked mons 1v1. It's setup bait for everything on Veil (do not use Glaciate as your argument, since then you're basically admitting that it's sack fodder), it gets 1 kill *maximum* versus stall and most likely 0 if your opponent is smart, and it's revenge killed by almost everything faster that you see on other archetypes (Greninja, Koko, Garchomp come to mind). It's laughable that you claim it counters Magearna when Electrium Z is so common, notably CM Electrium Z which just OHKOes you at +1 after SR. I can see a small rise for this mon but there is no way it deserves B-/B+ with so much competition for a team slot. Fire type breakers are incredibly common, and most are far less prediction reliant and/or prone to chip damage. As for Choice Scarf...I mean, if you really needed a Fire type for some idiotic reason, Infernape exists and can actually revenge kill Volcarona + Magearna safely. In practice I could never see myself using Victini over another Fire type unless my team was awkwardly constructed.
 

Metal Sonic

Resurgence
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Let's not give yourself too much credit, here: Victini was not popularized by your RMT, and frankly it isn't even popular, period.

I don't see how listing all of Victini's options helps me understand the mon, especially when all of your suggested moves and sets bar like 2 are borderline gimmicks or simply unviable. With your argumentation you'd have a field day making Mew sound broken.
I don't see how having a Fire type that lets itself be revenge killed every time it uses its main STAB is helpful to the majority of teams when so many other Fire types exist. Being weak to all entry hazards severely cuts into its supposed bulk, not that its typing does it any favors in this regard. I'm a huge fan of losing my breaker to both Dugtrio and Pursuit, thanks. Oh right, the scarf set also dies because V-Create lowers your own speed...
Its only niche is being a Fire-type with access to Electric + Ice coverage, which sounds fantastic until you realize that it has a subpar matchup into virtually every playstyle even though it beats some highly ranked mons 1v1. It's setup bait for everything on Veil (do not use Glaciate as your argument, since then you're basically admitting that it's sack fodder), it gets 1 kill *maximum* versus stall and most likely 0 if your opponent is smart, and it's revenge killed by almost everything faster that you see on other archetypes (Greninja, Koko, Garchomp come to mind). It's laughable that you claim it counters Magearna when Electrium Z is so common, notably CM Electrium Z which just OHKOes you at +1 after SR. I can see a small rise for this mon but there is no way it deserves B-/B+ with so much competition for a team slot. Fire type breakers are incredibly common, and most are far less prediction reliant and/or prone to chip damage. As for Choice Scarf...I mean, if you really needed a Fire type for some idiotic reason, Infernape exists and can actually revenge kill Volcarona + Magearna safely. In practice I could never see myself using Victini over another Fire type unless my team was awkwardly constructed.
OK, thanks for your reply. I suppose that I have not done a good job of explaining myself in my previous post, judging from the ratio of likes between yours and mine, and it was my mistake for assuming that my point that Victini should warrant a rise from C- was self-explanatory. It occurs to me that a large majority (>90%) of the audience here has not used Victini, or even seen it in action before, and therefore cannot agree or must abstain. Let me attempt to clarify your points and I hope this will help people understand better.

You're right about Victini not even being popular, lol. But I want to make it more popular, as it deserves. It is certainly an underrated threat.

Can we first consider what can switch into Victini? Few in the OU metagame can switch in safely into V-Create. Those that resist V-Create are either 2HKOed itself, or themselves are defensive threats that can be 2HKOed by Bolt Strike. This means that Victini (one Pokemon only) can have an advantageous matchup against offense. Against fat defensive answers, Victini has access to Trick to cripple them for the rest of the match. Can other Fire-types like Infernape (not even a good Pokemon in OU), Heatran, or Volcarona claim to have such potential?

OK, so now we've established that few mons except tanks can switch into Victini. That alone is enough to put it into B ranks, but let's continue.

Yes, it is weak to all entry hazards. That is indeed a weakness. However, you as the teambuilder should take this into account and employ proper hazard removal measures. Volcarona is even weaker yet it is A+. Megazard Y and Mega Pinsir take a whopping 50% from Stealth Rock, yet are A. Being weak to hazards lowers its "viability score", yes, but only by a little.

It is also weak to Dugtrio, yes. Again, so is Volcarona, Heatran, even Toxapex. It is not even a fair comparison if you want to list Victini's weaknesses. But despite this, what's going for Victini here, is that it would have already killed an opponent's Pokemon, before Dugtrio traps and kills it. This is already success. And, this is the best case scenario for Dugtrio, it cannot safely switch in at all no matter how you think about it. And Victini has counterplay to U-turn out if the opponent thinks of hard switching Dugtrio into Victini, so Victini lives on.

Interestingly, a non-Banded Dugtrio cannot OHKO Victini at full health: 252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 272-324 (79.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Your comment about "Pursuit" makes me very suspicious. There are very few Pursuit trappers in the OU metagame, because of the uncommonness of Ghost and Psychic types in the tier. Only Gengar and the Latis come to mind. It almost as if you are theorymonning, but since you likely haven't used Victini before, I don't blame you. I mean, OK, there's Tyranitar, but it in itself is a Victini check already.

Victini, as most wallbreakers, have a hard time against Veil, but do note that the Victini user has the immediate advantage of threatening out Ninetails 1v1, and gaining momentum for the game. Do you not think that this is a favourable matchup?

You claim that Victini is revenge killed by many things. That is in fact true to some extent, but you neglect the fact that every time Victini comes in, it kills an opponent's Pokemon. All Victini needs to do is to switch out to avoid being "revenge killed". Don't forget that you have a team of 5 other Pokemon to handle common threats. So, the end product is that you have a live Victini, one of the opponent's Pokemon dead, and the momentum reset.

In conclusion, Victini is a fearsome wallbreaker and something on the opponent's team dies whenever it comes out on the field. Thanks to its multiple resistances and good bulk (except for Rock, just get it off the field), it can do so many times. Does this description not sound worthy of B rank now?

--
As for Magearna, you must be quite stupid if you let Magearna set up Shift Gear + Calm Mind (2 turns) and also Stealth Rock (3 turns) to let Victini die. Even God can't save you then. Neither can Infernape, what exactly are you talking about?

And, Victini eats a +1 CM Gigavolt Havoc, if only you don't have Rocks on the field.

+1 252 SpA Magearna Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 286-337 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And Victini is not "prediction reliant", if you read my post you will notice that I implied that Victini is a "click V-Create to win" kind of Pokemon. Prediction only comes in if there are checks or counters on the opponent's team, but this applies for every Pokemon on this viability ranking, so the argument is moot.
--

I hope this clarification helps explain my thoughts on Victini clearer, since I do see that many do not understand how it can work in practice from my initial post. It has several weaknesses, yes, but all Pokemon have weaknesses. And it is clear that its strengths outweigh its weaknesses, definitely more than it deserves in C- rank. Victini should definitely be ranked above the likes of Nidoking, Primarina, Infernape, Porygon-Z.

Again, I would love to know if there are any more thoughts on this proposal.
 
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mushamu

God jihyo
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A- to B+
Mega Sableye is very unsplashable. It is a huge momentum sack outside of stall and cannot beat bulky targets such as mega venusaur or magearna. Flyinum Z Lando T, every fairy type, Charizard Y, and Heatran all beat it 1v1. This Pokémon should go to B+ because of how badly it had adapted to the metagame the past few months. Char Y, Tapu Bulu, Clefable, and Magearna rising all hurt it badly and it just doesn't fit the A- ranking anymore since it has no use over its one niche which is stall.
 
OK, thanks for your reply. I suppose that I have not done a good job of explaining myself in my previous post, judging from the ratio of likes between yours and mine, and it was my mistake for assuming that my point that Victini should warrant a rise from C- was self-explanatory. It occurs to me that a large majority (>90%) of the audience here has not used Victini, or even seen it in action before, and therefore cannot agree or must abstain. Let me attempt to clarify your points and I hope this will help people understand better.

You're right about Victini not even being popular, lol. But I want to make it more popular, as it deserves. It is certainly an underrated threat.

Can we first consider what can switch into Victini? Few in the OU metagame can switch in safely into V-Create. Those that resist V-Create are either 2HKOed itself, or themselves are defensive threats that can be 2HKOed by Bolt Strike. This means that Victini (one Pokemon only) can have an advantageous matchup against offense. Against fat defensive answers, Victini has access to Trick to cripple them for the rest of the match. Can other Fire-types like Infernape (not even a good Pokemon in OU), Heatran, or Volcarona claim to have such potential?

OK, so now we've established that few mons except tanks can switch into Victini. That alone is enough to put it into B ranks, but let's continue.

Yes, it is weak to all entry hazards. That is indeed a weakness. However, you as the teambuilder should take this into account and employ proper hazard removal measures. Volcarona is even weaker yet it is A+. Megazard Y and Mega Pinsir take a whopping 50% from Stealth Rock, yet are A. Being weak to hazards lowers its "viability score", yes, but only by a little.

It is also weak to Dugtrio, yes. Again, so is Volcarona, Heatran, even Toxapex. It is not even a fair comparison if you want to list Victini's weaknesses. But despite this, what's going for Victini here, is that it would have already killed an opponent's Pokemon, before Dugtrio traps and kills it. This is already success. And, this is the best case scenario for Dugtrio, it cannot safely switch in at all no matter how you think about it. And Victini has counterplay to U-turn out if the opponent thinks of hard switching Dugtrio into Victini, so Victini lives on.

Interestingly, a non-Banded Dugtrio cannot OHKO Victini at full health: 252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 272-324 (79.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Your comment about "Pursuit" makes me very suspicious. There are very few Pursuit trappers in the OU metagame, because of the uncommonness of Ghost and Psychic types in the tier. Only Gengar and the Latis come to mind. It almost as if you are theorymonning, but since you likely haven't used Victini before, I don't blame you. I mean, OK, there's Tyranitar, but it in itself is a Victini check already.

Victini, as most wallbreakers, have a hard time against Veil, but do note that the Victini user has the immediate advantage of threatening out Ninetails 1v1, and gaining momentum for the game. Do you not think that this is a favourable matchup?

You claim that Victini is revenge killed by many things. That is in fact true to some extent, but you neglect the fact that every time Victini comes in, it kills an opponent's Pokemon. All Victini needs to do is to switch out to avoid being "revenge killed". Don't forget that you have a team of 5 other Pokemon to handle common threats. So, the end product is that you have a live Victini, one of the opponent's Pokemon dead, and the momentum reset.

In conclusion, Victini is a fearsome wallbreaker and something on the opponent's team dies whenever it comes out on the field. Thanks to its multiple resistances and good bulk (except for Rock, just get it off the field), it can do so many times. Does this description not sound worthy of B rank now?

--
As for Magearna, you must be quite stupid if you let Magearna set up Shift Gear + Calm Mind (2 turns) and also Stealth Rock (3 turns) to let Victini die. Even God can't save you then. Neither can Infernape, what exactly are you talking about?

And, Victini eats a +1 CM Gigavolt Havoc, if only you don't have Rocks on the field.

+1 252 SpA Magearna Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 286-337 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And Victini is not "prediction reliant", if you read my post you will notice that I implied that Victini is a "click V-Create to win" kind of Pokemon. Prediction only comes in if there are checks or counters on the opponent's team, but this applies for every Pokemon on this viability ranking, so the argument is moot.
--

I hope this clarification helps explain my thoughts on Victini clearer, since I do see that many do not understand how it can work in practice from my initial post. It has several weaknesses, yes, but all Pokemon have weaknesses. And it is clear that its strengths outweigh its weaknesses, definitely more than it deserves in C- rank. Victini should definitely be ranked above the likes of Nidoking, Primarina, Infernape, Porygon-Z.

Again, I would love to know if there are any more thoughts on this proposal.
Emmm no. No to all of this.

Not having switch ins does not get you placed into B, especially when it's prediction reliant and the Victini player guessing wrong gets put into a huge hole because of it and probably loses a mon. Conversely what can Victini come in on? Heck what can Victini revenge kill? Very little.

The reason Volc is A+ despite being dumped on by Hazards is because it is the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier if it sets up. It ends games on its own, even with Hazards omnipresent and 110+ scarfers brought in, which are around because of Volc might I add. Being Hazard weak is a huge detriment unless you are as good as Volc or say...Zard Y.

Victini is nearly never at full health so that's not an impressive calc. A slow U-Turn brings Duggy in on Victini nice and safe, and if your team is that weak to Victini that you need to trap it with Duggy, a trade is a good deal.

Pursuit is pretty common right now due to the Zard-Y/Duggy/TTar core ripping the meta up. The rise of TTar in general is bad news for Victini and we will get back to this later.

Everything and it's mother threatens out Ninetails bar one or two things, it's not an accomplishment. The issue is dealing with everything else once Veil is up.

Victini does NOT claim a kill whenever it comes in with the way the game is today. Everything's too fat and hits too hard. Given V-Creates down sides, some reasonably smart switching can turn it into set up fodder.

Again, Victini is never at full health given you likely have to eat a hit or take hazard damage before it fires a move off so again, that points moot.

A key thing your missing is the same thing everyone who nominates a shit Mon tends to miss.

What's changed in the meta to help Victini? Nothing. Quite the opposite with TTar coming back in full force (even it's Mega Variant) and the meta just getting faster and hitting harder as time goes on. Mega Diancie just got released too which will probably see some play, if not as much as ORAS, and that's bad news for Victini. If anything, recent meta trends would go towards a Victini drop, not a rise.

Hazards may be more manageable with the Latis coming back into relevance and the rise of Mew, but they are still hard to deal with. It's a pretty shot scarfer with its 100 speed tier, as base 110s are pretty mandatory due to Volc, meaning it can't really do that job as you say it can (scarf Gren eats you alive) and V-Create leaves you vulnerable to alot more anyway. I don't fancy putting Ash-Greninja fodder on my team as my scarfed thanks.

It can't really handle stall either unless you click the right move, same with stuff Like Lando. You CAN knock out what switches in if you click the right move, but you want to also paint it as a "Click V-Create and something dies" mon, which it's clearly not. You lock yourself in on the wrong thing and something will abuse it. Some common things.

Lock Yourself in on anything Besides V-Create and Mag comes in

Lock yourself in on anything besides Glaciate and Lando comes in and with Z-Dance sets a very real threat that's not an option. Not to mention Zygarde

Lock yourself in on Bolt Strike, Duggy kills you.

Not choice scarf? Gren eats you alive, once it gets in, including being a free Ash Greninja as mentioned, especially given you won't be at full, most likely. Scarf Gren doesn't even care about that.

The four most common Mons in OU, widely regarded as the best and most splashable, you'll probably see at least two on every team, eat you alive unless you have Clairvoyance and play like a god.

Yeah don't rise this thing. As I said, if anything, meta trends would necessitate a drop but that's a little harsh too.

A- to B+
Mega Sableye is very unsplashable. It is a huge momentum sack outside of stall and cannot beat bulky targets such as mega venusaur or magearna. Flyinum Z Lando T, every fairy type, Charizard Y, and Heatran all beat it 1v1. This Pokémon should go to B+ because of how badly it had adapted to the metagame the past few months. Char Y, Tapu Bulu, Clefable, and Magearna rising all hurt it badly and it just doesn't fit the A- ranking anymore since it has no use over its one niche which is stall.
Sableye has always only been that high due to its role on stall. If it was more splashable it would be higher
 
A- to B+
Mega Sableye is very unsplashable. It is a huge momentum sack outside of stall and cannot beat bulky targets such as mega venusaur or magearna. Flyinum Z Lando T, every fairy type, Charizard Y, and Heatran all beat it 1v1. This Pokémon should go to B+ because of how badly it had adapted to the metagame the past few months. Char Y, Tapu Bulu, Clefable, and Magearna rising all hurt it badly and it just doesn't fit the A- ranking anymore since it has no use over its one niche which is stall.
Sableye's use on stall is extremely good however. It is ranked A-, which is lower than some of the other Pokemon on typical stall teams, because it had no real use outside of stall. This is nothing new, it has always only had real use on stall, and it is as succesful as ever both in tournaments and on the ladder. It should without a doubt stay where it is.
 

Muscle K

Banned deucer.
Hi, I don't really visit the OU Viability Rankings much since it's so crowded here, but I'd like to propose a rise for Victini to be ranked higher:


Popularised by my RMT: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-won-rmt-of-the-week-25.3607592/#post-7470267 where Victini was the main focus of the team. In practice, Victini is extremely anti-meta (I haven't played OU recently, but as of 2 weeks ago when I last played, it was still extremely viable and deadly)

C- is quite unacceptable for a very splashable wallbreaker that has access to a 180 BP spammable move with 100% Accuracy, making it as strong, or even stronger, than some Z-moves. There are currently very few Fire-resists in the metagame; and those that do so are either 2HKO'd by V-Create itself (Keldeo) or are Water-types that take heavy damage from Bolt Strike (130 BP) [Toxapex and Tapu Fini is 2HKOed]. An exception is Heatran, which Victini can pivot out of using U-turn, before punishing it with potentially the currently controversial Dugtrio.

Apart from using Choice Scarf, which was the set featured in my RMT, Victini has access to creative yet viable sets, such as (Life Orb) Mixed Blue Flare; Icium Z Glaciate, or even Choice Band for even crazier wallbreaking potential. Access to a wide movepool that include Final Gambit, Focus Blast, Trick, Thunder Wave (?????), Will-O-Wisp (???????????) can allow for users to become extremely creative, especially with the usually-neglected ability Victory Star, which boosts the accuracy of the recently nerfed moves (Thunder Wave spam, anyone?). I'm not saying that the aforementioned moves are common, but they certainly allow for experimentation and creative building. A more accurate Focus Blast is always welcome.

Victini is able to counter Magearna (resists Fairy, Steel, Ice) and 2HKOs the tier's most common physical "wall", Landorus-T. It is able to punish Tangrowth, and lure stuff like Heatran, Toxapex, maybe Chansey, pivot out of it with U-turn, and potentially send them into Dugtrio for the opponent to experience hell. The Choice Scarf set is single-handedly able to OHKO frail wallbreakers without any consideration (Mega Lopunny, Greninja, Volcarona, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele). Users may find that the 8 PP of V-Create is surprisingly insufficient for such an awesome breaker like Victini. And it has respectable bulk too: 100/100/100 is Mew-level, and we all know how irritating it already is uninvested. Read: Victini can usually survive a single super effective attack from most.

I don't know how many people will agree with me, or how good they believe Victini to be, but this is undeniable: With all the aforementioned advantages and positive traits, being able to hold its own against the S-rank threats and even most of the tier's A-rank threats, Victini should not be in C- rank. I propose somewhere like B- to B+, but that is debatable.

Would love to see what others think about this proposal.

Great. Another nom that's going to get a pokemon blacklised. I feel so sorry for you Gary.

Agreeing with Scarf Nihilego and the TheMohZone here - this post is simply misinforming. The amount of information that is factually incorrect astounds me. I honestly can't be bothered going through this because, there's too much to cover but here are the some of the most frustratingly incorrect quotes.


Popularised by my RMT: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-won-rmt-of-the-week-25.3607592/#post-7470267 where Victini was the main focus of the team. In practice, Victini is extremely anti-meta (I haven't played OU recently, but as of 2 weeks ago when I last played, it was still extremely viable and deadly)
First of all, as Nihilego kindly said, Victini was never popular to begin with. The inclusion of your team to the RMT of the week list does not mean that the set is popular. Heck, you've just used a standard ORAS set and called it your own, which is just ridiculous. Secondly, there is nothing "Anti-Meta" about Victini. Yes, it's got a good movepool and its has the same stats as Mew, but that does not mean it's anti meta.


lure stuff like Heatran, Toxapex, maybe Chansey,
Heatran can repeatedly switch in to Victini, even when it has...
Access to a wide movepool
Even with a large movepool, Victini fails to break its checks. Focus blast does minimal damage to Heatran, Glaciate is just disappointing and quite frankly is just disappointing.
Heatran is no way baited by victini - it takes nothing from anything it does and usually dead weight against it.

But more importantly, there is no reason for any of the mentioned 'mons (barring Heatran) to be switching into Victini in the first place. Victini's Psychic type STAB as well as the common knowledge that Victini gets incredibly powerful electric-type coverage means that Toxapex has no business staying and switching in on a Victini. As well as that (reffering to my previous statement about Special Attacking Victini) Victini is mainly used as a physical attacker that abuses V-Create - which is its only niche in this metagame, meaning that Chansey also has no reason to stay in.

Code:
+----------------------------------------+ | Moves |
| V-create 86.232% |
| Bolt Strike 77.653% |
| U-turn 75.471% |
| Zen Headbutt 35.431% |
| Final Gambit 19.745% |
| Grass Knot 13.246% |
| Glaciate 11.601% |
| Blue Flare 10.995% |
As you can clearly see, the majority of Victini are physical. This is backed up by the fact that the most common victini spread is this (refer to code below)
Code:
Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252 25.627%

moving onto your next post, you ask a simple question:
Can we first consider what can switch into Victini? Few in the OU metagame can switch in safely into V-Create. Those that resist V-Create are either 2HKOed itself, or themselves are defensive threats that can be 2HKOed by Bolt Strike. This means that Victini (one Pokemon only) can have an advantageous matchup against offense. Against fat defensive answers, Victini has access to Trick to cripple them for the rest of the match. Can other Fire-types like Infernape (not even a good Pokemon in OU), Heatran, or Volcarona claim to have such potential?
First of all, I'd like to remind anybody reading this that the majority of the initial nomination was based around its Choice Scarf set. This post is quote is an oxymoron to the previous argument - as not only can a choice locked mon not change moves, but there are plenty of pokemon that can switch in to a V-Create.

NOTE: Stat drops weren't calculated, just because i'm proving a point.
Not bothering with heatran, as its an obvious counter.

Landorus-Therian
-1 252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 130-154 (34 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Landorus can easily retailate with Earthquake if it decides to stay in. Did I forget to mention that a 0 attack Landorus-Therian has a chance to OHKO?

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Victini: 300-354 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Quagsire
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 98-116 (24.8 - 29.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

the saddest thing about these cals is the damage that Quagsire can do with a Scald and Earthquake.

0 SpA Quagsire Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 122-146 (35.7 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Quagsire Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 188-224 (55.1 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

May I also remind everyone that Quagsire has offensive stats of 85 and 55?
So much for the good bulk.

Rotom-Wash
Now you may be thinking:

Why would you ever use Rotom in SM? Just to prove a point. Also because it's not as passive as Toxapex and Electric and Water is still a good defensive typing.

252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 87-103 (28.7 - 33.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Victini Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 85-100 (28 - 33%) -- 92.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

at this point i'm not even going to bother saying "why would you stay in" welp i just outplayed myself

0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 248-294 (72.7 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mega Camerupt
A good offensive check.

252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 123-144 (36.7 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

you know the drill. I really didn't need to show that but I love mega camel so :>

168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 432-510 (123.4 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Garchomp and Zygarde
So context for this hide - In Australia, the Thai are known for having a cute phrase of "Same Same, but Different".
Zygarde and Garchomp are Same Same, but Different, which is why i've categorised them together

252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 128-151 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 104-123 (29 - 34.3%) -- 3.5% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 326-386 (95.6 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 270-320 (79.1 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 404-476 (118.4 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Hippowdon
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Hippowdon: 159-187 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

with...
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 236-282 (69.2 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

Latias

252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latias: 133-157 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Soul Dew Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 228-268 (66.8 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lol Nice C+ Rank
252 SpA Soul Dew Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 228-268 (66.8 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I've finally found a use for Nihilego - pissing people off
252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 258-306 (75.6 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


There are plenty of other 'mons that can switch in easily, such as Swampert, Kingdra, Hydreigon, Tyranitar, Heatran but wait you said you weren't going to mention it correctly played Water Types, list goes on. The point still remains clear - a lot of pokemon can easily switch into a V-Create. Which leads me to my next point....

Victini as a choice scarf abuser.
While TheMohZone did briefly mention victini's status as a choice scarf abuser, i'd like to add to that arguement before Victini gets blacklisted
As a revenge killer, relying on a move that makes you susceptible to trapping and revenge killing is a burden. Sure, V-Create is a nuke, but unlike the other powerful moves in today's meta (eg. Fire Blast, Hydro Pump, Wild Charge, Outrage) the downsides of the move are too flawed - with a stat drop in defenses and speed, it is an incredibly risky move to use especially when there is a trapper such as Dugtrio (aka Moet) or Weavile, allowing yourself to be susceptible to revenge killers after revenge killing something yourself just ins't worth it. This is why moves such as Outrage are not used as often as Dragon Claw on revenge killers / cleaners.

Finally, Victini as a mon itself.

So basically this is the concluding paragraph, but before this post gets taken down by Gary i conclude, I'd like to talk about Victini's stats. As i've said previously, Victini has a respectable BST of 600, with every stat reaching a decent 100 is good in tiers such as UU and amazing in RU. However, this is the OU tier - where every generation an incredible shift in the power levels of pokemon occur as stronger and stronger pokemon are continuously introduced. Ever since its introduction in Black and White, Victini has stuggled to keep up with the immense power shifts that occur with both the introduction of a new game (eg. BW2 and ORAS) and at the beginning of a new Generation (XY). With the introduction of SM, Victini has yet again fallen flat of the power creeps. While it possesses good Bulk, good mixed attacking stats and a good speed tier (now deemed decent) it simply cannot contend for a spot as the team's fire type, yet alone a wallbreaker or cleaner.

The following are summarised points on the state of Victini

As a cleaner, it is outclassed by pokemon above the base 100 speed tier with some exceptions, including the terrible Landorus, Tapu Lele and Tyranitar.
As all are able to invalidate the tier's scariest set-up sweeper (Volcarona) or other big threats including Magearna, Toxapex, Latios and Pinsir.

As a wallbreaker, it faces competition from incredibly powerful 'mons such as Tapu Bulu, Tapu Lele, Landorus, Zygarde, both Greninja forms, Tapu Koko, Garchomp, Medicham, Tyranitar, Heatran, Marowak, Heracross - the list goes on. The point is that the wallbreakers of the current OU meta all outclass Victini because of their specific niches - Tapu Bulu is able to dismantle stall with its Enormous Attack Stat and Grassy Terrain, Protean and Ash Greninja are exceptional because of their high base speed and mixed attacking and special attack stats respectively and even Nidoking outclasses it because of its high powered moves that are able to dismantle stall. Victini attempts to achieve these niches, but fails due to its fixed 100 x6 stats, and suffers even more as it is weak to Dugtrio.

To conclude, Victini is not deserving of a rise, simply because it's horrible in the current meta, especially such a drastic rise.
Honestly, victini should be unranked because it's that bad. It had potential, but the meta is just eternally unfavourable for victini.
 
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Can we just unrank Victini? As well as everything mentioned above, there are way better Scarf users and V-Create is essentially a Draco Meteor for physical Fire types.
 
Regarding Mega Sableye:
I like to compare it to Pelipper. They both have the same ranking and both are more or less necesarry for their own playstyle. Mega Sableye-less Stall does exist but Pelipper-less Rain does not exist. Pelipper is the reason Rain is viable but you can always use a Stallteam without Mega Sableye with similiar success.

What I am trying to say is that Pelipper is better than Mega Sableye if we look at it this way and Mega Sableye could drop. But there is this Semistallish Mega Sableye team running around from ABR with Lando-T, Ferro, Weavile, Celesteela and Pex (from ABR I think) and from what I have seen it is pretty successfull. That is the reason I would still keep Mega Sableye A- for now because it seems to be usable even on non-standard Stallbuilds.
 
Can we just unrank Victini? As well as everything mentioned above, there are way better Scarf users and V-Create is essentially a Draco Meteor for physical Fire types.
Victini is nowhere near worthy of being unranked. It still has a niche with its ridiculous movepool and insane stab. Also comparing V-Create to Draco is a ridiculous stretch. Its 50 Base power higher, hits different targets, and doesnt lower your attacking stat meaning it can be clicked again for equal damage, so honestly i dont know what you're getting at with that point.

I'm not really in support of ranking it up, but your comment just seems like an uneducated grab for likes based on the recent posts about victini.
 
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