Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Random Passerby]

I would like to know what you guys think of Hydreigon. If it's using a Life Orb, Hydreigon actually becomes very difficult to switch into because Dark / Dragon / Fire has great coverage that also beats the popular Special sponges like AV Tangrowth, Celesteela, Toxapex and 2HKO AV Magearna. Hydreigon gets easy opportunity to swap in against passive Pokemon like Mew, Tangrowth, Rotom-W, Zapdos and Ferrothorn. Roost allows you to threaten Balance more consistently and mitigates the LO recoil while Superpower hits Tyranitar and Heatean which are gaining relevance.Hydreigon also has a usable Speed tier which has Zygarde, Tapu Lele and Offensive Landorus-T. It also benefits from less Tapu Fini, Volcarona and Azumarull while discouraging Ash-Greninja's Water Shuriken. The Ground immunity and Water resistance also allows it to switch into Landorus-T and Choiced Keldeo. It can form a nice core with Magearna where they can cover almost each other's checks and weaknesses.
While Hydreigon still has a lot of flaws, between it's typing, movepool and Speed, I feel it deserves to rise ( i do not feel it is on the level of Volcanion, Dragonite, Gliscor, etc. )

 

[NewfieDude]

I would like to know what you guys think of Hydreigon. If it's using a Life Orb, Hydreigon actually becomes very difficult to switch into because Dark / Dragon / Fire has great coverage that also beats the popular Special sponges like AV Tangrowth, Celesteela, Toxapex and 2HKO AV Magearna. Hydreigon gets easy opportunity to swap in against passive Pokemon like Mew, Tangrowth, Rotom-W, Zapdos and Ferrothorn. Roost allows you to threaten Balance more consistently and mitigates the LO recoil while Superpower hits Tyranitar and Heatean which are gaining relevance.Hydreigon also has a usable Speed tier which has Zygarde, Tapu Lele and Offensive Landorus-T. It also benefits from less Tapu Fini, Volcarona and Azumarull while discouraging Ash-Greninja's Water Shuriken. The Ground immunity and Water resistance also allows it to switch into Landorus-T and Choiced Keldeo. It can form a nice core with Magearna where they can cover almost each other's checks and weaknesses.
While Hydreigon still has a lot of flaws, between it's typing, movepool and Speed, I feel it deserves to rise ( i do not feel it is on the level of Volcanion, Dragonite, Gliscor, etc. )

I'm pretty sure they told us to try and not focus on lower ranked mons anymore, but regardless;

Yah, Hydreigon can probably rise as it is a pretty good general murder of things, the only problem I have with it is that a) It is sorta outclassed by hoopa and b) it may not be up to par with the rest of C+ along side things like Buzzwole, Mega Beedrill, Mega Aero etc.

 

[Random Passerby]

I'm pretty sure they told us to try and not focus on lower ranked mons anymore, but regardless;

Yah, Hydreigon can probably rise as it is a pretty good general murder of things, the only problem I have with it is that a) It is sorta outclassed by hoopa and b) it may not be up to par with the rest of C+ along side things like Buzzwole, Mega Beedrill, Mega Aero etc.

Nah, Hydreigon has actual usable Speed and resistances while not being weak to Pursuit or trapped by Dugtrio- 2 big things in the meta. I don't even think stuff in C+ are good ( Buzzwole is garbage, Mega Bee / Aero uses up a Mega Stone and walled by random shit, only Ditto is good ). However, let's not derail the thread with those comparisons.

 

[in the hills]

small thing Heatran is below Greninja alphabetically

anyways so this post isn't a one liner I agree with a Char-X drop. when i first saw it i was incredibly skeptical, but meta trends in the past month have hurt it deeply. The addition of Mega Swampert caused a large increase in rain usage, which Char-X is dead weight against. Mega Tyranitar's release hurt it even more. Even Mega Slowbro has had a slight increase of usage with the 3 Attacks Slack Off set becoming more popular. And of course the omnipresence of Lando-T continues to hurt it. So yeah I actually could see it with mons like MVenu and Azu(although I think Salamence should drop to C+ honestly)

 

[Muscle K]

A+ -> A: Agree

Volcarona wass undoubtedly one of the most meta-defining mons currently in the tier, with it primarily running two (or three - if you count the Charti / Passho Berry sets) Quiver Dance Based sets, it was fairly One-Dimensional, mostly requiring a single mon to be removed or wearing certain pokemon down to the point where it couldn't effectively check Volc, it acted like most other sweepers would. But what really triggered the spike of volcarona usage was the invention of the Psychium-Z set, which would allow it to beat its conventional checks, such as Toxapex, Alolan Marowak and Keldeo we don't speak of Nihilego, please drop to UU . While HP Ice was good for dealing with convetional checks such as Zygarde and Garchomp, it left Volc vunerable to the likes of Tyranitar and Heatran - two mons that acted as hard counters to that set. While the Firium Z set was also good, allowing it to break through Fini, Ttar and Tran, it failed to break walls and sweep as effectively as Psychium Z.

The Meta has evolved since the birth of the Charti Berry / Psychium-Z sets, however it still sees success against most teams - which leads me to my next point.
The Abundance of Choice Scarf Abusers above the 100 Base Speed Tier with appropriate coverage for Volc has only increased, with Terrakion, Garchomp, Keldeo and the rare Greninja being the most common.
As well as that, Rain has seen an increase in usage since the release of Mega Swampert. Rain teams, similarly to Zard-X renders Volcarona useless the majority of the time - often being cannon fodder for most abusers - which can easily OHKO Volcarona with any move, including Mega Swampert's Earthquake, which has an approximately 45% to OHKO Volc with an Earthquake, to avoid the Flame Body.
As well as rain, more of Volc's checks including Mega Pinsir, Ash-Greninja, Tyranitar (including its Mega) and Heatran have increased in usage, which can easily hinder or outright stop Volcarona from sweeping by stopping it with Priority or outright walling it.

To Conclude (TL:DR) Volcarona should drop, as the metagame has evolved to the point where Volc isn't as threatening due to the rise of Volcarona's checks.

B -> B- : Agree.

Charizard has fallen far from grace - while the meta has seen a decrease of Fini and Toxapex usage and an increase in 'mons such as Magearna, Tangrowth, Celesteela and Mega Pinsir, it still greatly suffers from the introduction Mega Tyranitar, as well as the increased usage of Landorus, Heatran, Garchomp and rain.
I don't have much to say about Charizard-X due to me not using it as much as I did in ORAS, but from my knowledge, Rain Completely renders Charizard Useless, Mega Tyranitar (lol moving up a whole rank and a half from oras what happened lmao) completely outclasses it, Heatran walls it and Garchomp and Landorus checks Charizard, by either Outspeeding it and OHKO-ing it with Ground STAB or being able to take multiple boosted moves and retaliate with stronger ground STAB.

Just to adress some other nominations in the VR that have been flying around:

C -> C+/B- Disagree (for now).

While I do love Hydreigon, the reasoning that is given fora rise is just sub-par. While Yes, it is good rights, such as being able to pivot out on its checks, having a STAB combination that is semi-decent in this meta, alongside an unreliable coverage move is just not a valid argument to push it up a sub-rank. I may go edit this or create a new post about it in the future after I do test it, but for now, I'm strongly disagreeing.
I can understand where you're coming from, especially since it seems good on paper, but that still doesn't change my opinion on the matter.

C- -> C: Disagree

While Yes, it serves as a decent blanket check to most of the tier, it is simply outclassed by not only Ferrothorn and Jirachi as a hazard setter / blanket check, but also by Cresselia and Uxie as TR setters. While I adore Bronzong to death, I feel inclined towards leaving it as is. I haven't used Bronzong in OU since the "Pre-Metagross Ban Era", which it served excellently as a Metagross check, it still loses to a multitude of other things.
As with Hydreigon, I will update my thoughts after using them for a period, but for now, I disagree with the nom.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Gonna chime in here real briefly. A lot has already been stated about the discussion points, so I'll keep it short.

Zard X (B -> B-): Agree | Vertex has risen some solid points in defense of Zard X, but with the metagame trends harming it to such a great degree, I feel Zard X should still drop down to B-. Mega Tyranitar currently has many more advantages as a Dragon Dancer in spite of its lower Speed, including its obscene bulk for an attacker and ability to overrun enemy weather with Sand Stream. Rain teams are a thorn in Zard X's side, weakening its Fire STAB, and it risks being outsped by Swift Swimmers such as Mega Swampert and Kingdra. That is why Zard X should drop to B-.

If other Pokémon don't fit in B- alongside Zard X, then evaluate those as well and consider dropping them to lower ranks. I don't think it matters much among which Pokémon one species stands in the rankings, but the list should at all times accurately depict a Pokémon's viability.

Speaking of Dragon Dancers, is Dragonite still relevant? Is it still worthy of being in C+ or should it drop lower in the rankings? I really wonder when the last time was that Dragonite was actually relevant, hence why I'm asking. I know it's got more besides DD, such as CB sets, but I only thought I'd ask.

 

[Indigo Plateau]

I sadly don't have the time atm to write out a long post, but I still wanted to chime in on the Zard-X talk.

Vertex pretty much summarized my thoughts and, from what I've read, no one's actually given some.. well, strong points against his arguments, so I'll just address a couple that I've seen.

Unless Mega Slowbro is running toxic (which lately I've been seeing 3 attacks + slack off), Zard-X can literally run max/max and roost off the damage so I'm not sure how that's relevant at all (someone only mentioned 3 attacks).

It's also been mentioned that Lando-T has seen more of its offensive sets used due to the lack of switch-ins, and this is wonderful news for Zard-X - not to mention the fact that lefties, from what I've seen, has been rising in popularity.

Hazards aren't anything new - they've always been annoying, and it's not that hard to slap on a Mew and get rid of them unless you get an unlucky mu.

And finally, Vertex also mentioned that Zard-X gets EQ, which it can use to beat both Heatran and TTar, so I'm not sure how these mons make it "greatly suffer" or "completely wall it"? Not to mention the fact that you can always run a Dugtrio if you feel so inclined to get rid of these. Moreover, the decrease in Volc usage actually helps, since things like Garchomp have seen more use of their SD set instead of scarf.

Rain is obviously a problem, but people act like Zard-X isn't doing shit to it when in reality, it still has potential to get sent in and be annoying vs extremely common defensive rain mons such as Ferrothorn, Zapdos, and Pelipper - not to mention that if rain doesn't actually stay up, you better hope you're keeping Pert healthy, lol.

I know I reiterated a lot of things Vertex posted, but people seem to post the same 2/3 things about Zard-X without even acknowlodging points in his post (Magearna, Tapu Bulu, Mew, Clef, Celesteela, Tangrowth, etc..). I'm not convinced the arguments presented are enough for Zard-X to drop to B-, where it's better than most things, and for that reason, keep it at B.

 

[Zero Wing]

Zard X: (B to B-): Disagree


Not really going into much detail onto this cause vertex covered the main points but I'll just explain anyway. Most of the stuff that (potentially) stop zard from sweeping is nothing short from new, in fact, Lando, Tran, TTar have all been meta staples even BEFORE ZardX was even released. Sure, Lando being more broken now and Tran and TTar usage spiking gives Zard issues, but is that really a reason why it should drop? None of these have any reliable recovery outside of Leftovers, so they can't stall out Zard until it dies to recoil. You can argue that they don't need to have recovery to check it, but Zard 2HKOs Defensive Lando after the boost + Intimidate, forcing it to EQ the next turn. Speaking of EQ, Heatran and TTar also lose to EQ Zard (TTar after Rocks).


You can also say that 100+ scarfers are everywhere but the only relevant ones afaik are Keldeo and Garchomp, the former being unable to revenge kill you from full.


252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 205-243 (69 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Scald does 60%.


So if Zard is at 82% or higher, it can actually set up another DD on Keldeo.


Point is that increased usage of 101+ scarfers, Lando, Heatran, and TTar don't justify a Zard drop, since they have been staples in OU since the beginning. Even then Lando runs more offensive sets nowadays or defensive sets with lefties + protect giving Zard more leeway. Sure, Zard's got some flaws, but none of them are really enough to justify a drop, just look at Volc, who happens to also be rocks weak and revenged by 101+ scarfers, only difference is that it actually has answers (provided you actually scout the set first). Zard has no counters, it only has checks. It might not be as good as Volcarona, but it still can threaten a good amount of the S - A ranks: Magearna, Celesteela, Zygarde (yeah i know unboosted dclaw doesn't kill but are you really going to let your bulky dragon at 20% after?) Tangrowth, Mega Scizor, Zapdos, Bulu etc.

Keep Zard in B



Volc: (A+ to A): Disagree


Again, similar to Zard, but less predictable. Unless you have a Chansey or a Mantine, you have to guess what it's coverage moves are. Z-Psychic beats Pex, Keld, Gyara, HP Ice beats Zyg and Chomp, HP Ground beats Tran, etc. Sure, it can't run every coverage move to beat its checks, but it can choose its checks based on coverage, while still being able to nuke things at +1. Z - Bug Buzz beats TTar and hits Zygarde without sacrificing HP ground for Heatran so there's that. It's also one of the main reasons why no one uses scarf lando-t in favor of keldeo or chomp. Unless Mantine starts being on every team, Volcarona should not drop and remain A+.

Couple of noms of my own:

Kabutops: C+ to C-:

Outside of breaking through Ferro and Tang at +2, there isn't any reason I'd use this over Mega Pert.


Kyurem: C to C+.

Specs Kyurem has no switch ins. Chansey is 3HKOed by Focus Blast after rocks, which is a testament of how insane Kyurem's power is. It can threaten the common balance cores since most ice resists in the game are destroyed by appropriate coverage move, and tang, lando and zyg give kyurem free switch ins. I don't see this below Mega Chomp, who only has good matchups vs stall, and on the same rank as Magneton, who is ass.

 

[Tramuntana]

Speaking of Dragon Dancers, is Dragonite still relevant? Is it still worthy of being in C+ or should it drop lower in the rankings? I really wonder when the last time was that Dragonite was actually relevant, hence why I'm asking. I know it's got more besides DD, such as CB sets, but I only thought I'd ask.

Sadly, as a known Dragonite abuser, I have to say that the lowly C+ is the best rank for him at the moment. He IS relevant and HAS massive potential on the meta, maybe even enough to reclaim a position on the higher wranks once everything is settled down, as the main niche of Dragonite is to be able to act a s a "Surprise Madafaka" agains teverything thanks to being able to go from a Choiced Wallbreaker to a bulky stallbreaker, to an offensive Dragon Dance Sweeper to an offensive/defensive pivot or even a straigth up wall thanks to his stats, abilitty, typing and movepool.

The biggest issue Dragonite has right now is the speed creep. Now many things outspeed the bulkier sets evven after +1. And with the impossibility to remove Stealth Rock for good thanks to Ladorus T being able to resummon them again and again, this is a bigger problem than it used to be in ORAS. The presence of Tapu Lele, Koko and Zygarde is also a big problem, all three can force it out before he is ready to go, and force him to waste his Z-move if he is carrying one. Being forced into Fly for STAB due to the decline of Dragon moves is also an important setback.

But he has something that can help him shine again: lure sets.Who wouldn't want Tapu LEle paralyzed, or Zygarrde badly poisoned? As Zygarde himself has demonstrated, it IS viable to run status indocing attacks as a coverage to deal with specific answers. And Dragonite can pull this off better than any other pokemon thanks to Multiscale pressuring the opponent to attack. Ice coverage has also gone lower lately outside of Maegarna, Tapu Koko and Kyurem, who you shouldn't be switching ever anyway except as death fodder, and Landorus and Tangrowth that cannot come even close to doing enough damage. That benefits the Roost sets a LOT.

Lets be more specific, starting from common to rare to outright unused/undiscovered/subpar:

Classical non Z-move offensive Dragon Dance, and Choice Band. Both have the same problem as Zard's: worsened coverage of Dragon attacks. It goes without saying, those sets should NOT be used anymore, and in fact should never have been used since ORAS. If you use those Dragonite sets, you are bound to get destroyed by any fairy type on the tier, which is obviously a very bad thing, and you are completely wasting the magnificent bulk and versatility of Dragonite, wich are the main reasons to even pick him over other dragons, and especially to pick him over Zygarde who boasts better speed, better STAB and a completely broken higly spammable signature attack at only the cost of a sligtly weaker ExtremeSpeed and Outrage. If you honestly believe those are Dragonite's best sets, you flat out suck at playing Dragonite. THE END.

Z-crystal lure Dragon Dance: NOW we are talking. Gigavolt Havoc, or Supersonic Skystrike are amazing new toys for Dragonite. Want Skarmory or Slowbro out of the way? Put rocks, set a Dragon Dance, wait until they inevitably switch in, and boom. Just be careful to NOT use the Z-move right on the first time they come in unless you are already at +3 or they are the last mon remaining capable of surviving an attack from Dragonite, as only the most clueless of the players won't try to bait the Z-move if they can.

Now let's discuss the bulky Roost sets. The ones designed to stack multiple boosts. Again, coverage problems. However, those sets can work against offensive teams with Dragon Claw/Fly+Fire Punch, with Toxic or Toxic Spikes support to take out pokemon like Clefable, as well as Dugtrio support to eliminate enemy Heatran and Toxapex, wich by the way are also great partners for Nite as they form a sturdy defensive core.

Now let's go for a more defensive aproach: Pivot sets. Dragonite has every tool anyone could ask for a pivot: Recovery, strong attacks, priority, just enough speed to get past even the fastest walls and the majority of bulky tanks, and a boundless support movepool including Dragon Tail, status ailments, and many more.

Another option is the old school rain sets. Good pokemon with access to Hurricane and tools to abuse them are Volcarona and Dragonite. Those two and Pelliper, but you should better save him up to re-start the rain. Volcarona can work well in rain, but Dragonite can act as a pivot, and could even potentially use Rain Dance himself for his teammates, as he has the bulk required for a support set, and just enough speed to get past defensive pokemon and leads like Smeargle. A full blown rain sweeper that can work out of rain is something only Dragonite (with Agility) and Volcarona can do. And Dragonite has the advantage of a better defensive typing and not being as screwed by hazards as Volcarona is.

My favourite set ATM, however, is the stallbreaker (and also heavy offense breaker) set the Z-Fly SubDDnite. Z-Fly gives you a way to bypass Zygarde's ThouSpam Arrows, to prevent having waste half of your PP to stall Protect, as well as having the bonus of bypassing hax abilities like Flame Body. Fly's charge turn also comes in handy to stall PP and Toxic damage to get past those damn Unaware pokemon. I say right away, that set NEEDS Toxic+Dugtrio support as Clefable, Toxapex and Magearna will laugh at you otherwise. But if you want a set with potential, that set may be the most potentially deadly one Dragonite has right now.

I am sure that if Z-Roost cured status ailments, this set would probably be THE ultimate stallbreaker. Still, being able to shrug off annoying random stat drops from Psychic, Crunch or Shadow Ball, and the Substitute-piercing-Screech double defense drops, and being able to Roost even after a Taunt can come in VERY handy against many opponents.

And now, more weird stuff: stall oriented sets:

It is hard to remember apparently, but Dragonite has even better support movepool than many dedicated stall pokemon. And Aegislash has proven, no matter how good you are offensively, that does not mean you cannot be able to go full stall with Toxic.

Sadly, his inquestionably best support move, Heal Bell, is incompatible with Multiscale, but along his large list of Multiscale-compatible moves, we have invaluable stuff like Dragon Tail and Roar, reliable recovery, and even the revelation move for this generation: Haze. Yup, the cute dragon has the elusive Haze along his egg moves, and THAT is something Dragonite could put to very good use against Volcarona, Landorus, Keldeo and many other pokemon he can wall out with his deceptively good defensive typing.

By the way, on the topic of Haze. HOW can this amazing move be outside of even Other Options baffles me. In both ORAS and BW, Dragonite has proven to be an amazing tank and wall with ParaShuffler sets. Haze not even being mentioned on them is questionable to say the least. It could have been amazing before the Baton Pass ban, as Dragonite could perfectly have fit Haze as a filler move on the pivot sets for people obsessed with Baton Pass.

TLDR: Dragonite is what he is always been: A powerfull anti-meta super-versatile pokemon. The problem he has is that the metagame is so screwed up at this moment there is no need to have an anti-meta pokemon on the team to surprise and screw up the opponent matchup even more. He will rise a lot once the meta settles down a little bit, just like in ORAS. And he is still a very good and underrated all-purpose pokemon.

 

[Marrrrrrrrrr]

Please stop bashing Dragonite. Nothing has changed for it to get worse except Mega Tyranitar, which it has Earthquake for. Stealth Rock Lando isn't anything new, it's been omnipresent since the beginning of Gen 7. Dragonite isn't a Pokemon that needs Speed too much, the Choice Band and Gigavolt Havoc sets use their bulk to wallbreak and the Dragon Dance set can increase its own Speed. Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele aren't anything new, and Tapu Lele has been getting worse. Even then, DD sets allow it to outspeed both of them and kill them with Earthquake unless Tapu Lele is running Scarf, which isn't very common at the moment. Zygarde is in no way capable of taking a 1+ Outrage. I don't think Dragonite warrants a drop right now, as CB and Gigavolt Havoc are still good sets that allow it to bypass a lot of its checks, and not too much has changed for it to get worse..

 

[Tramuntana]

Please stop bashing Dragonite. Nothing has changed for it to get worse except Mega Tyranitar, which it has Earthquake for. Stealth Rock Lando isn't anything new, it's been omnipresent since the beginning of Gen 7. Dragonite isn't a Pokemon that needs Speed too much, the Choice Band and Gigavolt Havoc sets use their bulk to wallbreak and the Dragon Dance set can increase its own Speed. Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele aren't anything new, and Tapu Lele has been getting worse. Even then, DD sets allow it to outspeed both of them and kill them with Earthquake unless Tapu Lele is running Scarf, which isn't very common at the moment. Zygarde is in no way capable of taking a 1+ Outrage. I don't think Dragonite warrants a drop right now, as CB and Gigavolt Havoc are still good sets that allow it to bypass a lot of its checks, and not too much has changed for it to get worse..

Lol I wasn't, quite the contrary.
By the way, thanks for reminding me the Z-move lure sets, I love using them, second only to the stallbreaker set, yet I completely forgot to detail them on the analysis.

Couple of noms of my own:

Kabutops: C+ to Unranked:

Outside of breaking through Ferro and Tang at +2, there isn't any reason I'd use this over Mega Pert.

Agreed, that thing must go down to either D or Unranked.

The only real reson to use it is on a Rain team with Mega Manectric or Mega Scizor forbiding the use of Mega Pert, in wich case you are better off running a VoltTurn core with Rain as a bonus effect for the electric mons, instead of a full rain-based team instead.

By the way, Mega Swampert can beat those two mentioned walls via repeated Earthquakes or Ice Punches on the switch and an appropiate partner to prevent them from recovering with Leech Seed, or to take advantage of the turn they run away to set up and murder something (cough Volcarona cough).

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Ah, I feel like it's been ages since my last post. Let's see if I don't screw this one up.

BUT just as a general question, does anybody remember a lesser used Volcarona set in Gen 5? Yes, I'm referring to its Rain set. Recently, I ran a variant and it has done nothing but good for the team. Of course the spread is 252 Sp. Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd with the moves being Quiver Dance, Fire Blast, Bug Buzz, and Hurricane. Now I know what you're thinking: Why Fire Blast? The answer is easy: There will be times when Rain will not be up, especially if an opponent's Charizard Y gets a bit cheeky, so you can fully take advantage of it with extraordinarily powerful Fire Blasts. Bug Buzz is a good secondary STAB with good power, able to hit through Sub, and all the stuff you know. Hurricane is the main attraction here, however; with Rain up, this baby is never missing, meaning you can almost mindlessly spam it for days. The held item for me is Charti Berry, but it can easily be swapped out for Life Orb or whatever else you'd want to use. Of course, the set itself has its hard stop; the omnipresent Heatran will always be an issue 1v1, sure, but since this is a rain team, Pelliper and Mega Swampert have it very much covered, with some other team options that can usually safely cover Mega Tyranitar (I typically run Scizor, but that's just me), Tapu Fini, and Primarina.

Now this is all tied in with the main idea of the post: Should Volcarona drop? Yeah, the rise of rain for NORMAL Volcarona is definitely a hamper, especially since any Volcarona outside of Rain Teams is normal variant, but with a reliable set to use in Rain Teams, a theme that is easily a rising threat as of late, does that give Volcarona yet another adaptation to the meta? You bet, but enough to avoid a drop? Eh...for the sake of argument, let's save that part for last. Having been using Volcarona's multiple sets since Gen 5, I've always found it to be an absolute monster on the field, even if its Stealth Rock weakness is always going to hold it back. Heatran and Tyranitar are just as popular now as they were before, plus the addition of new threats like Tapu Fini and Primarina (if Giga Drain is not used), Nihilego, and the rise of Dugtrio, make life for the flame moth much more difficult. But, nonetheless, we should take bias aside and have a look a the points that would help us decide its ultimate rank.

Pros:

- Volcarona sports a unique Bug-Fire typing that gives it a good STAB combination and key resistances to Grass, Ice, Fight, Bug (punish those U-Turns), and Fairy.
- Base 135 Special Attack is a great start, with a Base 105 Special Defense and a Base 100 Speed showing it can tank a Special hit pretty well and starts at a usable speed. Also its HP is at 85, which isn't too shabby for a setup sweeper.
- Access to Quiver Dance with the aforementioned stats means Volcarona can set up on multiple Special Attackers for days.
- Multiple coverage moves.
- Hidden Power Ice to cover Salamence and Landorus-Therian.
- Hidden Power Ground to specifically remove Heatran.
- Psychic is a decent tool to rid the world of Toxapex.
- Giga Drain can punish multiple Water-Type switch-ins, save for a few specifics like Toxapex and Volcanion.
- Despite being a Bug-Fire, it functions surprisingly well in Rain Teams, able to run Hurricane and perhaps get a bit of hax off with Confusion.
- Multiple items to use like Firium-Z, Charti Berry, and even Life Orb.
- Even though its Physical Defense is laughably low, Volcarona can get the last laugh thanks to Flame Body (it's not a big point, but it can make a difference...maybe).

Cons:

- Stealth Rock has been Volcarona's biggest issue and it will continue to remain so.
- Physical stats suck; between an unusuable Base 60 Attack and a paper-thin Base 65 Defense, it can't run anything Physical (but why would it?) and is easily taken out by Physical Attacks. Now one can argue that Flame Body can make up for this, but Stone Edge doesn't make contact, therefore making this point mostly moot.
- Recent metagame trends has made the regular variants of Volcarona less effective, what with Rain on the rise, Heatran becoming more and more common, Primarina seeing a touch more use, and the sheer existence of Mega Tyranitar. Of course, these are nothing compared to Chansey, which will ALWAYS laugh at any attempt to break it.
- The amount of team support required seems to be a bit higher than anything else in A+.

That last con ultimately makes the decision for me. Pokemon in A+ are supposed to require less Team Support than most other Pokemon. For example: Zygarde, the ultimate A+ Pokemon, the pinnacle of what it means to be in the ranking. It requires very little support, just enough to remove one or two specific threats, and is relatively difficult to defeat, but it makes up for it with multiple sets with the most spammable move in the game right now and the best Priority Move in the game: Thousand Arrows and ExtremeSpeed. Volcarona requires Team Support to:

- Remove Stealth Rock.
- Specifically remove any combination of Heatran, Mega Tyranitar, Dugtrio, Tapu Fini, Gyarados, Zygarde, Greninja, and any potential 101+ Choice Scarfed Pokemon like Keldeo and Garchomp. That's a long list of Pokemon for a team to just conveniently cover, even if one can remove a couple threats thanks to specific moves, but the team still has to pick up the slack for the others.
- Remove Rain as fast as possible unless one is running the practically unused Rain set.

Those are very huge tasks for a team to pull off a successful Volcarona sweep. Entry Hazard removal is more difficult than ever before, Rain is only becoming more popular now, and the list of Pokemon, as stated earlier, is just too long for a Pokemon in A+ to say "I can pressure each and every one of them". With this in mind, while I absolutely love Volcarona and will continue to use it, I fully support the dropping of Volcarona's rank from A+ to A. It is still undoubtedly a monster, but ultimately, its own downfalls are too abundant and too blatant to ignore.

 

[xyclone147]

Those are very huge tasks for a team to pull off a successful Volcarona sweep. Entry Hazard removal is more difficult than ever before, Rain is only becoming more popular now, and the list of Pokemon, as stated earlier, is just too long for a Pokemon in A+ to say "I can pressure each and every one of them". With this in mind, while I absolutely love Volcarona and will continue to use it, I fully support the dropping of Volcarona's rank from A+ to A. It is still undoubtedly a monster, but ultimately, its own downfalls are too abundant and too blatant to ignore.

I loved Volcarona when I found it in Pokemon White all those years ago, but it's definitely got its ups and downs. In all honesty I didn't even consider Volcarona when I built my team originally, due to the fact I had two Pokemon with Flying, Gren, and a Dugtrio with Stone Edge. One of my favorite team's problems is still setup sweepers-and I still have no issue removing Volcarona with ease. Every time I've faced it, I can answer it. Sometimes before it sets up on the switch, and sometimes as a Dugtrio w/ Sash revenge.

The continuous presence of speedy revenge killers with access to Flying, Rock, and Water-type moves means Volcarona can be knocked out quickly. And you don't even always need to sack a Pokemon to kill it! A badly predicted switch on the Volcarona user's part can easily stop it, especially with its lower defense. Out of all the Pokemon in A+, it's the one that requires the most support and care to ensure it can be used to sweep. It's just not on the same level.

I love Volcarona, but Volcarona should drop.

 

[robopoke]

Ah, I feel like it's been ages since my last post. Let's see if I don't screw this one up.

BUT just as a general question, does anybody remember a lesser used Volcarona set in Gen 5? Yes, I'm referring to its Rain set. Recently, I ran a variant and it has done nothing but good for the team. Of course the spread is 252 Sp. Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd with the moves being Quiver Dance, Fire Blast, Bug Buzz, and Hurricane. Now I know what you're thinking: Why Fire Blast? The answer is easy: There will be times when Rain will not be up, especially if an opponent's Charizard Y gets a bit cheeky, so you can fully take advantage of it with extraordinarily powerful Fire Blasts. Bug Buzz is a good secondary STAB with good power, able to hit through Sub, and all the stuff you know. Hurricane is the main attraction here, however; with Rain up, this baby is never missing, meaning you can almost mindlessly spam it for days. The held item for me is Charti Berry, but it can easily be swapped out for Life Orb or whatever else you'd want to use. Of course, the set itself has its hard stop; the omnipresent Heatran will always be an issue 1v1, sure, but since this is a rain team, Pelliper and Mega Swampert have it very much covered, with some other team options that can usually safely cover Mega Tyranitar (I typically run Scizor, but that's just me), Tapu Fini, and Primarina.

Now this is all tied in with the main idea of the post: Should Volcarona drop? Yeah, the rise of rain for NORMAL Volcarona is definitely a hamper, especially since any Volcarona outside of Rain Teams is normal variant, but with a reliable set to use in Rain Teams, a theme that is easily a rising threat as of late, does that give Volcarona yet another adaptation to the meta? You bet, but enough to avoid a drop? Eh...for the sake of argument, let's save that part for last. Having been using Volcarona's multiple sets since Gen 5, I've always found it to be an absolute monster on the field, even if its Stealth Rock weakness is always going to hold it back. Heatran and Tyranitar are just as popular now as they were before, plus the addition of new threats like Tapu Fini and Primarina (if Giga Drain is not used), Nihilego, and the rise of Dugtrio, make life for the flame moth much more difficult. But, nonetheless, we should take bias aside and have a look a the points that would help us decide its ultimate rank.

Pros:

- Volcarona sports a unique Bug-Fire typing that gives it a good STAB combination and key resistances to Grass, Ice, Fight, Bug (punish those U-Turns), and Fairy.
- Base 135 Special Attack is a great start, with a Base 105 Special Defense and a Base 100 Speed showing it can tank a Special hit pretty well and starts at a usable speed. Also its HP is at 85, which isn't too shabby for a setup sweeper.
- Access to Quiver Dance with the aforementioned stats means Volcarona can set up on multiple Special Attackers for days.
- Multiple coverage moves.
- Hidden Power Ice to cover Salamence and Landorus-Therian.
- Hidden Power Ground to specifically remove Heatran.
- Psychic is a decent tool to rid the world of Toxapex.
- Giga Drain can punish multiple Water-Type switch-ins, save for a few specifics like Toxapex and Volcanion.
- Despite being a Bug-Fire, it functions surprisingly well in Rain Teams, able to run Hurricane and perhaps get a bit of hax off with Confusion.
- Multiple items to use like Firium-Z, Charti Berry, and even Life Orb.
- Even though its Physical Defense is laughably low, Volcarona can get the last laugh thanks to Flame Body (it's not a big point, but it can make a difference...maybe).

Cons:

- Stealth Rock has been Volcarona's biggest issue and it will continue to remain so.
- Physical stats suck; between an unusuable Base 60 Attack and a paper-thin Base 65 Defense, it can't run anything Physical (but why would it?) and is easily taken out by Physical Attacks. Now one can argue that Flame Body can make up for this, but Stone Edge doesn't make contact, therefore making this point mostly moot.
- Recent metagame trends has made the regular variants of Volcarona less effective, what with Rain on the rise, Heatran becoming more and more common, Primarina seeing a touch more use, and the sheer existence of Mega Tyranitar. Of course, these are nothing compared to Chansey, which will ALWAYS laugh at any attempt to break it.
- The amount of team support required seems to be a bit higher than anything else in A+.

That last con ultimately makes the decision for me. Pokemon in A+ are supposed to require less Team Support than most other Pokemon. For example: Zygarde, the ultimate A+ Pokemon, the pinnacle of what it means to be in the ranking. It requires very little support, just enough to remove one or two specific threats, and is relatively difficult to defeat, but it makes up for it with multiple sets with the most spammable move in the game right now and the best Priority Move in the game: Thousand Arrows and ExtremeSpeed. Volcarona requires Team Support to:

- Remove Stealth Rock.
- Specifically remove any combination of Heatran, Mega Tyranitar, Dugtrio, Tapu Fini, Gyarados, Zygarde, Greninja, and any potential 101+ Choice Scarfed Pokemon like Keldeo and Garchomp. That's a long list of Pokemon for a team to just conveniently cover, even if one can remove a couple threats thanks to specific moves, but the team still has to pick up the slack for the others.
- Remove Rain as fast as possible unless one is running the practically unused Rain set.

Those are very huge tasks for a team to pull off a successful Volcarona sweep. Entry Hazard removal is more difficult than ever before, Rain is only becoming more popular now, and the list of Pokemon, as stated earlier, is just too long for a Pokemon in A+ to say "I can pressure each and every one of them". With this in mind, while I absolutely love Volcarona and will continue to use it, I fully support the dropping of Volcarona's rank from A+ to A. It is still undoubtedly a monster, but ultimately, its own downfalls are too abundant and too blatant to ignore.

You mentioned that A+ mons are supposed to require less teamsupport than most other pokemon. The huge difference between Volcarona and other A+ mons is that Volcarona wins the game if you get rid of its counters (and it is very hard to check Volcarona after a QD on a wellsupported team) while the other A+ offensive threats will net you 1 kill, before a check pressures you to switch.

I still support Volc dropping though coz of other multiple reasons mentioned.

 

[WhiteQueen]

How is Tapu Lele only A? That thing is so overpowered and difficult to play against, more so than any other Pokémon ranked higher.

 

[ian smart]

How is Tapu Lele only A? That thing is so overpowered and difficult to play against, more so than any other Pokémon ranked higher.

The rise of Magearna and spd celesteela make it a lot less threatening than what it was before. It is still a threat, but with how fast most teams are and how common the two mons mentioned above are, it hurts tapu lele's ranking.

 

[Niadev]

How is Tapu Lele only A? That thing is so overpowered and difficult to play against, more so than any other Pokémon ranked higher.

The plethora of steels in the tier makes it far less dangerous in practice than it looks on paper. Heatran, AV Magearna (who is incredibly common from my experience) and Sp.Def Celesteela all switch in relatively easily (Focus Blast and Thunderbolt are very rare, most run Psychic/Psyshock/Moonblast/HP Fire to actually break some defensive teams), especially in AV Magearna's case - the more specially defensive variant of AV will wall even specs with incredible ease, essentially turning it into a non issue, and even max sp.a max HP will wall it very effectively. Speaking of Magearna, Lele is outright setup bait for offensive Magearnas, which are incredibly threatening to many teams, though switching in is a bit harder - it's a similar story with AutoSteela. Lele often finds itself trapped by Duggy vs stall too without Shed Shell - which very noticeably reduces it's effectiveness vs basically any other team composition - so Dugtrio alone makes Lele's job as a wall/stallbreaker harder.

Non Specs Moonblast/non Shadow Ball (the latter of which is incredibly rare since the departure of Mega Metagross) variants are switched in on by standard Mew, Scarf is mediocre due to the aforementioned plethora of steels (which scarf flops even harder against) and the fact that scarfers are generally preferred to be above base 100 speed in order to check Volcarona due to how incredibly threatening Volc is, meaning to use scarf lele you either have to double up on scarfers or have multiple very solid volc checks, which constrains teambuilding somewhat. It's offensive matchup is pretty eh without scarf (which I already mentioned is mediocre), and CB TTar (who's rising due to Volcarona and the rise of psychic types) easily traps any choiced variant locked into Psychic with Pursuit. It's far from a bad Pokemon, but there are more than enough cons for it to remain in A, and I don't see it returning to A+ anytime soon, at least not until such a time bulky steels die down, or Lele weak balances see a surge in usage.

 

[Tramuntana]

Ah, I feel like it's been ages since my last post. Let's see if I don't screw this one up.

BUT just as a general question, does anybody remember a lesser used Volcarona set in Gen 5? Yes, I'm referring to its Rain set.

I was waiting to see someone mention it!
You are totally right. Ever since the release of Mega Pert I have been testing one. It works wonders, and Giga Drain variants can even counter-sweep a Rain team mirror match with ease. Just like Moltres in RU, Volcarona is an ironically amazing rain sweeper!

 

[Sueshidragon]

Discussion points, here goes.

Volcarona from A+ -> A: Disagree
While yes, rain teams being a thing now and the general existence of Zygarde really hamper this thing, I still think it deserves it's spot in A+. The huge prominence of Steels gives Volcarona a great niche in being able to set up on virtually all of them, and with only needing a single turn to become an immediate threat, I struggle placing it anywhere outside of A+. There are few things that can sufficiently stop Volcarona, the most common of which being my aforementioned Zygarde, and with Giga Drain for coverage, it can take advantage of rain teams if the team needs it. While rain does hamper Volcarona's Fire moves, the threat of a boosted Giga Drain or (insert attack here) is usually enough to keep those threats at bay. All in all, I don't think it should be dropped out of A+.

Mega Zard X from B -> B-: Disagree
I know there's a lot working against Zard X right now. But, at the same time, there's a lot working for it, too. Just like with Volcarona, Zard X is able to take advantage of common Steels and set up on them. While it may not be as versatile as Volcarona or its Drought-sporting brother, it can still take advantage of great bulk and Tough Claws to harass anything that isn't Fire resistant. It's still a great Pokemon, albeit a little hard to justify using at times.

 

[TURBODERP]

Just want to clarify that while my post was about how Mega Zard X suffers in the meta, I don't think it actually should drop. Most of those trends I've talked about have been going on for a while, and Zard X is still a threat that can plow through teams (once you take care of the opposing RK mon). B is a fine rank for it.

 

[Vengeance417]

After reading a whole bunch of comments for Zard X to stay in B rather than drop, I'm changing my stance on it and would like it to stay in B rank as well. Leftovers and offensive variants of Lando-T are starting to surface once again which makes Zard X's time much easier. It's one of the few offensive Pokemon in the game (post mega evolution, that is) that can switch in on Zard Y with relative ease (although it has to watch for Focus Blast/non-existent Dragon Pulse). Many of the premier defensive mons in the game, such as Mew, Zapdos, Tangrowth, Magearna (Fleur Cannon does a ton tho), Ferrothorn, non-T-wave/Unaware Clefable and Mega Scizor as well as some offensive mons like Tapu Bulu, Tapu Koko, Mega Manectric and non-Glare Serperior are set up bait.

Now these last two points have been known since Zard X's inception and is no news whatsoever, but they're still pluses for it that help it stand out to the other Dragon Dancers in the current metagame. Out of all the viable Dragon Dancers in the tier, it's tied for Salamence in being the fastest while also being the strongest in terms of natural strength thanks to Tough Claws Flare Blitz (not counting Z-moves like Supersonic Skystrike as they're single-use, while Zard X can Flare Blitz all the time), which really helps it effectively clean teams mid-late game. Lastly, it's still the only Dragon Dancer (besides Lum Berry users) in the metagame that cannot be burned, which is still a major plus for it in a meta that's seeing a lot of Will-o-Wisp Mew running around lately.

 

[iUranium]

First time nominating (and commenting in this thread in general), but I would like to nominate

Cofagrigus to go to B-

Cofagrigus is a great pokemon when it comes to just splashing on a team (considering the large presence of hard-hitting physical attackers at the current moment), offering an extremely high 145 defense, access to a Will-O-Wisp + Hex combo and having the niche ability Mummy, which helps negate abilities that boosts attacks such as M-Pinsir, Buzzwole, M-Mawile, and M-Medicham; plus giving extra chip with Helmet. But besides the moves I've mentioned earlier, he has access to Knock Off to further reduce damage given to him, Toxic Spikes if the opposing Pokemon is immune to Will-O-Wisp/predicting a switch, and Haze to stop from being used as setup bait. Here are some calcs to show off his defensive capabilities.

252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 127-150 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 121-144 (37.8 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 109-129 (34 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 112-133 (35 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Buzzwole Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 72-85 (22.5 - 26.5%) -- 20.6% chance to 4HKO

While yes there are other Pokemon out there that can out-bulk him, his Will-O-Wisp> STAB Hex and Mummy niches are too good to just be labeled under C rank imo.

Also, undecided on Volcarona, though I am leaning towards dropping now that Rain is around.

 

[UltraBallz]

First time nominating (and commenting in this thread in general), but I would like to nominate

Cofagrigus to go to B-

Cofagrigus is a great pokemon when it comes to just splashing on a team (considering the large presence of hard-hitting physical attackers at the current moment), offering an extremely high 145 defense, access to a Will-O-Wisp + Hex combo and having the niche ability Mummy, which helps negate abilities that boosts attacks such as M-Pinsir, M-Mawile, Tapu Bulu (grassy terrain boosts grass types moves) and M-Medicham; plus giving extra chip with Helmet. But besides the moves I've mentioned earlier, he has access to Knock Off to further reduce damage given to him, Toxic Spikes if the opposing Pokemon is immune to Will-O-Wisp/predicting a switch, and Haze to stop from being used as setup bait. Here are some calcs to show off his defensive capabilities.

252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 127-150 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 121-144 (37.9 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 109-129 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 112-133 (35 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

While yes there are other Pokemon out there that can out-bulk him, his Will-O-Wisp>Hex and Mummy niches are too good to just be labeled under C rank imo.

Also, undecided on Volcarona, though I am leaning towards dropping now that Rain is around.

Just want to correct you on Bulu. Grassy terrain activates when Bulu is sent out so it obtaining Mummy doesn't change the fact that the terrain is still up. Grass type attacks will still be powered up.

 

[Wings of Night]

I think Magearna and Celesteela are really being overselled as checks to Tapu Lele. First of all AV Magearna is a one time check to specs lele at best, OTR and SG just get 2HKOd. Celesteela takes around 40 from specs psyshock and gets easily overwhelmed with something like tangrowth in the back which blocks leech seed and can knock off cele's item or force it out.
Scarf is still one of the best revenge killers in the game despite not being able to revenge kill Volcarona (which is getting worse right now anyways) but does a great job at preventing stuff like ash gren and bd azu from sweeping late game.
Don't have any other arguments rn but yeah I think WQ is right, its often not easy to find switch ins for tapu lele and it should rise

 

[bludz]

Yeah Lele should not go back to A+ right now, imo. It's not just Celesteela and Magearna. Weavile and Ttar hurt it because they make it much harder to lock into a Psychic move (the stronger STAB) since you can potentially be pursuit trapped after if choice locked. Dugtrio is also seeing a surge again thanks to Magearna, Heatran, and Tyranitar being favored by the meta. Mew is also EV'd to take on Specs variants which is a huge issue for Lele because of how good Mew is. Maybe it can't do a ton back but being walled is just no good in general for a breaker. The other thing is that Lele is easy to check offensively if it isn't holding a Scarf. There is also the fact that it synergizes poorly with certain pokemon because Psychic Terrain is actually a hindrance to them, making it less splashable. I think Lele is a pokemon that looks more constraining on paper than it is in practice, right now. While it has the potential to even blow by resists and remains one of the most potent breakers in the tier, the metagame is simply not in favor of it.