Sketchmons ORAS - Diggersby and Shell Smash Banned!

Update time, grats to Josh

Mega Latias -> A
Mega Garchomp -> A
Manaphy -> A
Mega Venusaur -> A-
Ditto -> B+
Mega Alakzam back to A because it was unfair to drop it when it was being considered for a rise, we'll get back to it
Clefable -> A+
Diggersby -> S
Aurorus to C-

Removed TI and Snaquaza, the joke's old.

Next slate

Malamar rise
Bisharp rise
Gliscor drop
Gyarados drop
Sableye rise
Rhyperior drop (What does this do?)
Mega Sceptile drop (So fucking predictable and useless)

If somebody wants to be realllly niiccee they can find all the serebi links so we don't have to look at the attached file and edit them all in.


 
Rhyperior was probably the best Mega Pinsir counter out there, dunno what it does now, haven't used it since. It does eat up crazy physical hits, like I had it survive a +2 close combat from Terrakion at one point to then kill it with earthquake. I prefer Diancie nowadays as a bulky rock type, as it's neutral to fighting and poison while resistant to dark, so it's one of the best hoopa answers, something Rhyperior can't achieve. It's also an answer to dual STAB Thundurus I suppose. Indifferent on it dropping really.

Malamar only ever seems to do work when I misplay horribly (switching intimidate into it... twice), it's very vulnerable to status unless running resttalk or something, and even then it runs out of PP really quickly. It doesn't help that it's helpless in the face of bulky ghosts, which are really good in this meta thanks to normal spam. Don't think this needs to move up.
 
Rhyperior was probably the best Mega Pinsir counter out there, dunno what it does now, haven't used it since. It does eat up crazy physical hits, like I had it survive a +2 close combat from Terrakion at one point to then kill it with earthquake. I prefer Diancie nowadays as a bulky rock type, as it's neutral to fighting and poison while resistant to dark, so it's one of the best hoopa answers, something Rhyperior can't achieve. It's also an answer to dual STAB Thundurus I suppose. Indifferent on it dropping really.

Malamar only ever seems to do work when I misplay horribly (switching intimidate into it... twice), it's very vulnerable to status unless running resttalk or something, and even then it runs out of PP really quickly. It doesn't help that it's helpless in the face of bulky ghosts, which are really good in this meta thanks to normal spam. Don't think this needs to move up.
If Malamar runs Substitute (Substitute+Superpower+V-Create+Knock Off seems as valid a set as any), it can actually set up on the likes of Cofagrigus and Mega Sableye, seeing as how it runs Knock Off and V-Create, respectively.

That being said, I do agree that Malamar doesn't need to rise. It has a notable niche in the metagame -- something that can snowball against teams that lack a proper switch-in or are weakened, that isn't Serperior -- but it is by no means great. My personal metric is that if well-constructed teams do not have to go out of their way to check a Pokemon, then it's not ready for B-rank. Offensive teams can force it to fall to offensive pressure due to its lackluster starting stats, while defensive teams inevitably carry some combination of Clefable, Quagsire, and good burn spreaders to stop it. A solid metagame shift could render it unviable. C+ is fine.
 

Josh

=P
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Nominating Jellicent Unranked > B-

What does Jellicent do? First of all it has an excellent typing, and walls Keldeo (even freeze dry specs variant cant overpower it since Jellicent runs SpD).
It is immune to espeed from diggers and can burn it or just KO it with scald.
It can burn and then stall out M-Alt.
It can Taunt Latias-Mega.
It kinda just neuters Heatran, since Heatran can't actually hit it.

Etc. Jellicent just fairs extremely well against the trends of the metagame and is definitely worthy in B- imo.
 
If Malamar runs Substitute (Substitute+Superpower+V-Create+Knock Off seems as valid a set as any), it can actually set up on the likes of Cofagrigus and Mega Sableye, seeing as how it runs Knock Off and V-Create, respectively.
???

-V-Create or Knock Off Cofagrigus

-Mummy

-If used V-Create, stats immediately drop

Substitutes don't help. The only situations in which Malamar can take on Cofagrigus and not be crippled are

A: It's a Psycho Boost set

or B: It's running Psycho Cut for Psychic STAB and has already setup enough on other things it can 1-2HKO Cofagrigus with Psycho Cut

Nominating Jellicent Unranked > B-
It is immune to espeed from diggers and can burn it or just KO it with scald.
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 322-380 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 442-523 (109.4 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Specially Defensive Jellicent dies to Knock Off and Wild Charge, no boost, and even Physically Defensive must successfully switch in on an Extreme Speed or else it immediately dies to no effect, whether because Diggersby used Swords Dance or because Diggersby hit it with a move on the way in and finishes it off. It's also weak to both of Diggersby's preferred coverage moves -Knock Off and Wild Charge- so you can basically assume any given Diggersby is prepared for it, where Cofagrigus is a reasonably reliable counter to Diggersby carrying Wild Charge instead of Knock Off while Skarmory is an excellent counter to Diggersby carrying Knock Off instead of Wild Charge.

The other points are all iffy as well.

0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 104-126 (26.9 - 32.6%) -- 54.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Most of the time Heatran is a defensive 'mon Sketching recovery. Specially Defensive variants can literally drop a Burn on you and then stall you out if you're also a defensive 'mon.

252+ SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 150-176 (38.8 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even with max investment you can't get the 2HKO, allowing Heatran time to set Stealth Rock and/or Burn you. Barring Jellicent's Sketch move being Earth Power or something (Or you're carrying Curse?), Jellicent is actually not very useful against Heatran.

Taunting Mega Latias is of limited use when it outspeeds you. The mono-attacker Stored Power Quiver Dancer set can literally sit there, Quiver Dancing every time Taunt wears off (And you might as well assume it gets two of them -one as you switch in, one before you Taunt it) and then sweep with Stored Power. It's only useful if they switch in on you and you predict that and Taunt them on the way in.

The Keldeo and Mega Altaria points are decent anyway, though beware Quiver Dance Mega Altaria.

But you are way overselling Jellicent.

Thundurus ban
Thundurus is a solid Pokemon, but I've personally never found it to be nightmarish. I don't actually have a strong opinion either way, but if I had to give a statement it would be "no ban, and why aren't we looking at Diggersby first?"
 
???

-V-Create or Knock Off Cofagrigus

-Mummy

-If used V-Create, stats immediately drop

Substitutes don't help. The only situations in which Malamar can take on Cofagrigus and not be crippled are

A: It's a Psycho Boost set

or B: It's running Psycho Cut for Psychic STAB and has already setup enough on other things it can 1-2HKO Cofagrigus with Psycho Cut
Yeah, I wasn't thinking right there (I am working on very little sleep). Yes, Malamar does have an issue with Cofagrigus, even though it can take off over 50% with Knock Off, provided that Cofagrigus sketched reliable recovery. Perhaps what I should have highlighted was that Malamar's susceptibility to status is lessened by Substitute, which in the land of bulky Ghost-types and Heatrans, is also good to use on predicted switches to more reliably get that extra boost under your belt. But again, I'm not disputing Malamar remaining at C+, so it's not a huge issue. TBH I don't like it that much and can't see myself really using it anyways.
 
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xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
If somebody wants to be realllly niiccee they can find all the serebi links so we don't have to look at the attached file and edit them all in.


Replace the number with the mon's number for each one, so alt-mega would be 334-m, for example. Just right click on the image and hit copy image location and it'll copy the link. And thank god for this because the formatting of the megas was annoying the shit out of me lol.

I don't have much to say about the nominated mons right now. Haven't used them, barely seen them.
 
I thought of an idea for Belly Drum Talonflame, and the more I use it, the more I like it. It misses out on Earthquake coverage, and it's hard to find setup opportunities against offence, but once this thing gets started, it's really hard to stop it. It beats a lot of the things that are used to check common setup sweepers. It doesn't fear Topsy-Turvy from Sableye
+6 252 Atk Talonflame Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 322-379 (105.9 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Or Spore/Thunderbolt from Thundurus
+6 252 Atk Talonflame Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 348-410 (116.3 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And even Heatran, Rotom, and Mega Slowbro can't switch in safely
+6 252 Atk Talonflame Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 248-292 (64.4 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 Atk Talonflame Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 179-211 (59 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 Atk Talonflame Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 246-289 (62.4 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I find that it works pretty well with rapid spin Ferrothorn; they have decent synergy in general, and Talonflame appreciates having certain potential checks (like Heatran and Rotom, and Slowbro) worn down by hazards to secure an OHKO (although Ferrothorn loses against Heatran and Wisp+Recover Rotom, and Slowbro can cripple it with scald burns and then set up CM or cotton guard, so maybe it's not the best partner). I've also tried Garchomp and Heatran as Stealth Rock setters so that Ferrothorn can run Spikes instead. Here's the set I've been using:

Talonflame @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 136 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Flare Blitz
- Belly Drum
- Roost

The EVs are designed to outspeed Thundurus so it can't use Spore/Dark Void/Heart Swap/Topsy-Turvy and stop Talonflame's sweep. The rest are dumped into attack and HP, making sure to have an even HP number so that the Sitrus Berry will activate. Let me know what you think!

Edit: 100% agree with Thundy ban; nothing can switch in on both Spore and Oblivion Wing, and even though it can't run both, you get a situation like Greninja in OU: You pretty much have to guess what any given one has, and if you guess wrong, it usually leads to a KO. Also, some people say just use Safety Goggles, but just the fact that people are running an otherwise useless item to counter one pokemon shows that it's too overcentralizing and needs to go.
 
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Funbot28

Banned deucer.
I wholeheartedly agree on a Thundurus-I suspect test. Prankster Spore/Dark Void or Taunt NP Oblivion Wing are both incredibly powerful sets to face. Yes, there is priority, but Thundurus-I can limit the number of switchins thanks to priority sleep, allowing it to do whatever it wants (most of the time, sweep).
 

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 96 HP / 252 SpA / 160 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draining Kiss
- Flamethrower
- Substitute
- Tail Glow

This is a set I've been trying out and isn't too hard to get a sweep going with it, since a large majority of passive mons are set-up bait. The only things that completely wall it are fire types and with a sub up Scizor and Chansey are not reliable counters. Evs allow it to outrun max speed positive natured 150 after sitrus consumption, maximize its damage output, and have a little left to put into HP. Tail Glow boosts give Slurpuff an extra layer of longevity in conjunction with Draining Kiss and Flamethrower provides good enough coverage. It's best used as a late game cleaner and with the right things worn down or taken out on the other team it sweeps easy.
 
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Josh

=P
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Hi um well I'm quitting OMs, and while I'll still be active on showdown/smogon for the most part I don't want a major involvement.

AllJokesAside has been very active in this thread and hosts vr rankings, I'm leaving him in charge of sketchmons. If aesf has a problem with it he can overrule me but for now AJA is in charge.

Bye nurds :(
 
I'm gonna propose a Diggersby suspect, it's really ridiculous for every playstyle and has few solid checks. The majority of offensive mons are straight up 1hko'd by Espeed, and the neutral ones that aren't typically are after a round of rocks or two. With this, normal resists struggle to switch in due to ground STAB hitting almost all of them super-effectively, and the ones that do resist the STAB combo alternatively die to its wide coverage options- or simply getting worn down after switching into powerful espeeds/equakes too many times.

Defensive playstyles meanwhile are just destroyed by Swords Dance since all the unaware mons are 2hko'd easily on the switch, and there's very little that can live a +2 hit; unlike OU, with both priority and strong normal STAB in one slot it can easily fit in wild charge, eliminating the likes of Skarmory and MegaBro as defensive checks. I myself have resorted to phys def Tangrowth, which is one of the very few things that can live a +2 hit and revenge the strong rabbit. I think it's ultimately unhealthy and centralising, and at least deserves a suspect.

As an aside, in terms of new stuff I've been trying out, Sucker Punch Crawdaunt is pretty cool since its priority actually even stronger than Diggersby's. It also makes a nice core with the rabbit, as nothing resists their combo of very strong priority, so they revenge a wide variety of threats together.
 
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Hi um well I'm quitting OMs, and while I'll still be active on showdown/smogon for the most part I don't want a major involvement.

AllJokesAside has been very active in this thread and hosts vr rankings, I'm leaving him in charge of sketchmons. If aesf has a problem with it he can overrule me but for now AJA is in charge.

Bye nurds :(
Overruled. Eevee and I are appointing Chopin Alkaninoff to run Sketchmons as we feel he's the best person for the job.
 
I suspect Diggersby will just move to Shift Gear if it loses Extreme Speed. It'll at least be possible to deal with using your own priority at that point, but it's got decent bulk, and Shift Gear is such a huge boost to Speed that Diggersby can just run as a bulky attacker and still outspeed basically everything. It would still present a ridiculous threat to offensive teams relying on fast, fragile Pokemon to defeat Diggersby (Switch in while it Shift Gears, die), and still be able to use setup to clear the way through stall teams. It wouldn't even lose as much direct offensive potential as you'd think, since it would be replacing 80 BP Extreme Speed with 102 BP Return/Frustration.

I don't think banning Extreme Speed unbreaks Diggersby. I also don't think it unbreaks Mega Pinsir. It would make them less broken, but less broken is still broken.

Also note: currently only one ban and one potential ban are Extreme Speed related: Mega Pinsir for the ban, Diggersby for the potential ban.

I'd intended to say more, but I'd rather hear from Chopin first.
 
Okay. Since we lack comments about Thundurus, I'll keep this straight. Thundurus is not banned yet.

If we ban Extremespeed and unban Mega Pinsir, we're basically undoing the previous suspect decision. Previous suspect from community proves that Mega Pinsir is the broken thing, not Extremespeed. We have had many arguments about this and people preferred Move Clause to limit Extremespeed spam.

For now, I'll move to the main problem. Diggersby is currently suspected.

Please post your arguments below, whether it should or should not be banned. I'll make a decision based on the arguments. Of course it's not gonna be banned if there's lack of comments as well.
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
I suspect Diggersby will just move to Shift Gear if it loses Extreme Speed. It'll at least be possible to deal with using your own priority at that point, but it's got decent bulk, and Shift Gear is such a huge boost to Speed that Diggersby can just run as a bulky attacker and still outspeed basically everything. It would still present a ridiculous threat to offensive teams relying on fast, fragile Pokemon to defeat Diggersby (Switch in while it Shift Gears, die), and still be able to use setup to clear the way through stall teams. It wouldn't even lose as much direct offensive potential as you'd think, since it would be replacing 80 BP Extreme Speed with 102 BP Return/Frustration.

I don't think banning Extreme Speed unbreaks Diggersby. I also don't think it unbreaks Mega Pinsir. It would make them less broken, but less broken is still broken.

Also note: currently only one ban and one potential ban are Extreme Speed related: Mega Pinsir for the ban, Diggersby for the potential ban.

I'd intended to say more, but I'd rather hear from Chopin first.
Wouldn't this just make it the same as basically every other setup sweeper in the tier? After a SG/SS, something like Hoopa-U outspeeds everything relevant, but I haven't heard complaints that it's broken (yet). I don't see SG sets putting Diggersby in S, it'd still be viable but not ridiculous.

Banning Diggersby would increase the play of Ursaring, who is much slower (and therefore easier to beat with something that resists Espeed) but hits almost exactly as hard as Diggersby (assuming Ursaring has Guts). It can run a set of SD/Espeed/CC/Crunch, or replace one of those with Facade if you feel brave. And it can even run a Quick Feet set to beat certain checks (hitting around 340 speed iirc).
I'm not saying Ursaring is broken, or even that Espeed is. Just putting this out there.
 
Lol no, Diggersby wont be any more broken than the plethora of other powerful attackers in the tier. What made it broken was stab extreme speed. Stab extreme speed is the problem is. Mega Pinsir isn't fucking broken without Extreme speed jesus christ, it's being nominated for B+ in OU, what does it gain besides Extreme speed? Really? You're going with Belly drum feint, because that shit is walled to death by Clefable unless you're running Double-edge and are you really going to run Double-edge + Belly drum lol. Saying that Extreme speed isn't the problem is fucking stupid. There's a line up of stupid replacements for this easily, cheap strategy. Why not just restrict it? Just give me one valid argument as of why restricting the sketching of Extreme speed isn't the best solution, instead of banning like 5 fucking pokemon. Ugh
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
Lol no, Diggersby wont be any more broken than the plethora of other powerful attackers in the tier. What made it broken was stab extreme speed. Stab extreme speed is the problem is. Mega Pinsir isn't fucking broken without Extreme speed jesus christ, it's being nominated for B+ in OU, what does it gain besides Extreme speed? Really? You're going with Belly drum feint, because that shit is walled to death by Clefable unless you're running Double-edge and are you really going to run Double-edge + Belly drum lol. Saying that Extreme speed isn't the problem is fucking stupid. There's a line up of stupid replacements for this easily, cheap strategy. Why not just restrict it? Just give me one valid argument as of why restricting the sketching of Extreme speed isn't the best solution, instead of banning like 5 fucking pokemon. Ugh
The "better option" is making arguments based on anything other than anger. Calm your tits.

5 mons? 2. None are broken besides pinsir and MAYBE diggersby. In the meantime, do you really want such a heavily setup oriented tier? No, you've even said as much...Honestly this post isn't even an argument, its just you being angry and sarcastic.
 
It's me literally asking why we are suspecting multiple mons when we could just restrict extreme speed and solve any doubt if any others Extreme speed abusers will be broken. Don't give me the "we're undoing other bans" - that's the point of new leadership, or "it's only X mons who are broken", we just wasted three weeks suspecting them one by one, we could've dealt with Set up as well, but apparently not.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
It's me literally asking why we are suspecting multiple mons when we could just restrict extreme speed and solve any doubt if any others Extreme speed abusers will be broken. Don't give me the "we're undoing other bans" - that's the point of new leadership, or "it's only X mons who are broken", we just wasted three weeks suspecting them one by one, we could've dealt with Set up as well, but apparently not.
Honestly this post isn't even an argument, its just you being angry and sarcastic.
No, seriously. Pinsir took way too long because aesf wasn't active, espeed would've only furthered that and made it even harder to ban setup - then we would've had what...10+ days? About a 1/3rd of our ladder time would be spent without espeed and a woefully massive number of setup sweepers.

If you want to argue hindsight we can do that all day, but it's away from the point.

Do you think we can go down the OU banlist and just unban everything that was broken due to swords dance / whatever generic move? No, we can't. Stop acting like 2 mons being broken mostly due to one move means that the move is broken. It doesn't.
 
But that's not what I'm doing lol. That would be actually changing the game, complex banning. I'm proposing the ban of Sketching Extreme speed, which is what was done with Chatter

I'm also not arguing hindsight, I'm trying to prevent it from being brought up in the first place, jesus.
 
Uh can you guys stop this? This Extremespeed issue is done and the community decided what they want.

Don't give me the "we're undoing other bans" - that's the point of new leadership, or "it's only X mons who are broken", we just wasted three weeks suspecting them one by one, we could've dealt with Set up as well, but apparently not.
No, I'm not undoing other bans because it's what the community decided. I respect community input and if I undo previous bans, I basically just made the previous discussion useless. In other words, I basically disrespect the input from community. I don't think I will be a good leader if I did that.

But that's not what I'm doing lol. That would be actually changing the game, complex banning. I'm proposing the ban of Sketching Extreme speed, which is what was done with Chatter

I'm also not arguing hindsight, I'm trying to prevent it from being brought up in the first place, jesus.
Chatter is banned because it's normally unsketchable, not because it's broken (yeah it is broken, but that's not the reason it's banned).

Now guys, please start discussing Diggersby (if you want Diggersby banned).
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
I'm personally indifferent about Diggersby, as I manage to find ways around it somewhat easily, but with that being said...

I'm in favor of banning Diggersby from Sketchmons because of the extreme measures necessary for heavy offense and full stall to beat it (heavy offense needs checks, full stall needs counters). Bulky offense and Balance can rely on moderately strong checks, most of which are defensive, to beat Diggersby.

Heavy Offense can't afford to run any defensive mons to sacrifice momentum, and as a result need to go to extreme measures to check it. Furthermore, the extreme power of +2 LO Espeed means that you can't afford to switch on Diggersby either, as LO +2 Espeed can OHKO non-invested 90/90 resists such as Terrakion. Faster Ghosts are somewhat reliable checks, with Gengar being a very good one (Double-edge is a very common 4th move) for most offensive builds, but the checks mostly stop here. Its power is unrivaled in the current metagame and jeopardizes offense as a whole because it's so difficult to check before it boosts and it doesn't have a hard time boosting. Common resists are OHKO'd at +2 and it requires high bulk to avoid the OHKO - upwards of 80/120 bulk that is almost fully invested (mega latias) just to have a chance to avoid it. HO and BO variants often can't afford to run mons with so much bulk, meaning its almost impossible for BO to beat Diggersby - You either have to run Gengar or you need to switch to HO to ensure it can't get a free SD.

Stall is a more interesting argument; Diggersby strongly discourages the use of many insane setup sweepers that could easily destroy typical stall teams, however at the same time, right now Diggersby is so splashable on any team that it doesn't really matter. Stall has absolutely no reliable counters to Diggersby with only knock off as coverage, as at +2 it 2hkos Skarm with some prior damage and OHKOs literally everything stall has to offer besides Unaware Celfable, which it handily 2hkos with LO. To further things, Diggersby is freeing up teamslots on offense because it literally 6-0s most stall teams with little effort, meaning that offense is even easier to run because you get a dedicated stall breaker, revenge killer, cleaner, and sweeper all in one slot.

Get this shit the hell out of our tier.
 

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