Shin Megami Tensei / Persona (Beware Spoilers!!)

**For the convenience of others, including myself, please put Persona 5-related spoilers in hide tags**


With Persona 5 being released in the States and both a mainline Shin Megami Tensei game on the Switch and a remake of Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey on the way, I thought it would be a good idea to make a discussion thread on these game series. I got both Persona 5 and Shin Megami Tensei IV recently, and the two are really starting to grow on me, and I want to share my growing love of these series for those who have never heard of either or has only given one of them a try. Though the two games have about the same combat backbone, the general gameplay, story, and tone of each are immensely different from each other, as Shin Megami Tensei generally focuses on a heavy RPG, monster-collecting and dungeon-crawling backbone with an expansive and dark story with multiple endings (which usually generate enough discussion themselves), while Persona balances said mechanics with visual novel elements and character-driven narratives (Persona 3 and onward adhere to this idea, Persona 1 and 2 are more similar to SMT). Generally, both are different enough from typical RPGs that I would recommend them to those who are rather bored with the current JRPG trend or seek a greater challenge that most RPGs don't offer.

Either post or discuss your experience with either series, recommend potential entries to other users, declare waifus, warn others of SMT's huge and sporadic difficulty spikes, or kill each other arguing over which series is better (please don't).
 
Funny, I've just been playing Digital Devil Saga 1 on my PS3. Currently on NG+, about to fight the Leader of the Brutes.
I think it should be obvious what I'm planning before I go for DDS2. Then, I might get Nocturne and/or Persona 5 and/or SMT4:A (oh boy)

And, for what I'm planning to do in DDS1, here's your hint:

EDIT: One more thing: Apparently, an Atlus dev has actually been quoted for saying "We get off on your tears" Take that as you will, folks.
 
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ScraftyIsTheBest

On to new Horizons!
is a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
My first step into the Persona series was Persona 4 Golden, which I picked up upon learning of the Persona craze. I was very pleasantly surprised. It's a very lifelike experience and the game really felt a lot like an experience and I felt very immersed into it for its characters, despite its plot not being that best executed. But the characters were very interesting and many of them felt very human, three-dimensional, and nuanced with individual struggles with their sense of self and who they really are. But underneath that, they really felt like your typical kind of teenage kids that I'd find myself hanging around. I felt really immersed into it because of all the activities in it which made it a really fun Japanese high school simulator, especially with stuff like part-time jobs, fishing, after-school activities, and the like while building social links and such, and getting girlfriends too (though Naoto's felt way too forced, then again, I just don't see Naoto working in any romance whatsoever), combined with the RPG dungeon crawling and level up and such made it a very fun experience overall and a very memorable one too. It's definitely one of my favorite games ever and I'll always have a special fondness for it. I also managed to so far step into Persona 3 too and I really like P3 as well, since despite the gameplay not being as polished as 4's, its plot has a lot of deep meaning to it, and good themes too.

My favorite character in the series (and imo best girl) is definitely Rise (in case my avatar doesn't say that already), since Rise is nothing but awesome. Her character is very complex, impressively nuanced, and she undergoes some very strong development that even carries over into the spin-offs (despite the spin-offs being mostly terrible fanservice), and she's one of the best written characters in the game. Her character arc really embodies the themes of Persona 4 superbly and she's really an amazing character. Plus, she's cute, badass, strong, is exceptionally skilled at what she does, and above all sassy. She's everything! Her All-Out-Attack sprite in Golden is also awesome (which is in my avatar), I mean just look at her, she's so badass yet adorable at the same time. I just love her strong passion and spirit and it's really inspiring, as is her character as a whole. She's also got a great personality, she's very nice, kind, caring, and supportive which really makes her feel like an amazing friend to have. She's a really inspirational character to me and I just really love her character.

But yeah, just a few initial thoughts on what I've gone through in the Persona series so far, since I've just only recently stepped foot into the series and am still gradually exploring it bit by bit. Haven't played the SMT series yet since I'm quite busy but I'll take a look at those games too for the gameplay. I'm looking into soon getting Persona 5 and SMT IV in particular since those look to be quite good.
 
Just finished SMT4's Law ending (people who hate minotaur crits haven't met beelzebub), and now Devil Survivor: Overclocked and Persona 5 are next on the list. I also got all the extra mission DLC for 4 but I haven't touched any of them yet, and probably won't finish all of them in a reasonable time frame since one of them in particular recommends you complete every quest in the game before you even attempt it. Other than that, here's my general opinion and review of it for those who are interested or are considering picking it up (I'm not concise and this is written to those who haven't heard of the general gist of SMT, also I've never done this before and I have quite a bit to say, so I'm putting it in hide tags):


For a Shin Megami Tensei game, 4 was quite effective in introducing me to the series as a whole, despite the series' reputable oppressiveness towards newer players. The tutorials in the earlier portions of the game were extremely helpful and straightforward, covering topics as simple as battling to more complex tasks such as demon fusion, something that myself and others can appreciate when trying to get into a series like this. One of the main draws of SMT4 is definitely the story and diegetic elements. Your character is a newly-anointed Samurai of the Eastern Kingdom of Mikado, protectors of the people and the first line of defense against demon invaders from the underground caverns of Naraku. Though the tone, scope, and overall pacing of the story is rather awkward for the first couple of hours when you first start exploring Naraku and Mikado to find the elusive Black Samurai, the game dramatically shifts in setting and thematics after Naraku eventually opens up to a post-apocalyptic Tokyo hidden underground, infested with demons and a humanity struggling to survive. Even then, the world-building still has a slow start, but SMT4 manages to make the setting its own once Tokyo starts to open up. One of the story aspects that SMT4 absolutely nails is the general ambience of Tokyo. The music absolutely contributes to this, forming many tracks into something reminiscent of 90s game music with a modern coat, enhancing the rather alien and advanced, yet disheveled Tokyo and its atmosphere. I'll probably add some examples in this later, but take my word for it, the OST is akin to an SNES remaster. Giving a Middle Age setting a technological edge from sources in either Mikado or Tokyo (you get a gun, and your gauntlet runs a Demon Summoning Program to get demons to fight for you while you are but a mere samurai) also gives the dynamics between characters and themes more variety.

The characters are mainly there to service the general themes and the narrative, but manage to be relevant outside of this. You are accompanied by three other new Samurai: Jonathan, Walter, and Isabeau. Due to the introduction of the game, it is understood rather quickly that these three characters are integral to the outcome and path of the story, setting up a major trope that is common in mainline SMT games: alignment. Think Renegade vs. Paragon in Mass Effect, since some dialogue choices push you to either side (or neutrality if you balance them out), but the key differences here are that your choices and siding with any of these characters greatly affect what takes place in the story, and each side isn't really good or evil. Instead of directly giving you a side that is better than the other, Jonathan, Walter, and Isabeau all represent certain values, philosophies, and their own ideal worldviews, making an already integral part of the game more depth and variety for different players and their own outlooks on how Tokyo, Mikado, and all of humanity should be like. However, this comes at the cost of making the main characters seem rather static for a majority of the game, but each gets their own particular insight and growth once the game reaches its climax. This lack of character development serves to fully communicate what each character represents, but whether this enhances the story or not can differ from person to person. The first half of the game sets up different situations and conditions that those in Tokyo deal with, and you fighting demons along the way, and the story hits its first major stride. Eventually, you will come across some major story decisions, which change what you do up until a point where your choices overall lock you into one of four endings: Law, Chaos, Neutral, and "Bad", of which almost all of alter the setting and character interactions in some way, and permanently continues the story on one of these paths. Because of this, along with ending-exclusive content and a New Game+ feature, SMT4 extends beyond its ~50-60 hour playtime and lets you experience all the endings and routes to see what the whole game has to offer.

Turn-based combat and demon-collecting lies at the core of SMT4's gameplay, and both are extremely solid. The combat system is rather run-of-the-mill for the average RPG, but what sets SMT apart from the competition is the Press Turn system. If you or a party member either use an attack an enemy is weak to or get a critical hit, the team gets that turn extended. It essentially turns a single turn consumption into half a turn, and for each time you do the above, the next turn gets extended until all turns are affected You can also extend a turn by skipping an action of a party member. Also, if you nullify or dodge an enemy's attack in any way, they lose a certain amount of turns to act. The press turn encourages the player to identify and exploit enemy weak points to maximize their damage. However, the same conditions that apply to the player also apply to the enemy, meaning that they can extend their own turns. This, coupled with SMT4's higher difficulty than most RPGs can turn anything from a random encounter to a boss fight into something that may be able to go either way, making the stakes of any battle important enough to focus on.

Collecting demons is absolutely essential to succeeding in SMT4, and this is where the gameplay really makes itself stand out, more so than the Press Turn system. In order to get demons, you have to either sway them to your side via battle negotiations or fuse two or more demons to create stronger ones. It's not that simple, however, as demon negotiation can be rather volatile and costly, with demons either being unhappy or aggressive towards your responses or offers, or they can make off with the items or anything else you bartered with at random (there are some exceptions, responses are similar between demon races and some responses or item demands can sway individual demons to your side instantly), which can create some tension that can threaten your life (or your wallet) depending on the situation. Demon fusion is also important, as some demons can only be obtained through fusion. Fused demons can also receive skills or passive abilities from the demons that fused to create them, which is fully controlled by the player and can be customized akin to selective breeding. Demons are important not only because they are adaptable and ever-changing, but they also are the only way that the player can learn new skills. If a demon learns all of the skills it can from levelling up, the demon can teach its non-passive, non-exclusive moves to the player via Demon Whisper. If the player already has one of these skills, it is powered up automatically. Continually updating your party is key to winning battles, since most demons that aren't replaced or fused to become stronger quickly drop off in power (with few exceptions, if you really want to keep a party member, you have to intentionally fuse a better one), and their continued growth in skill options directly affects the player due to Demon Whisper. Though this is a difficult thing to accept since RPGs usually have constant partners and players may get attached to certain demons, the variety of teams is constantly changing and keeps the combat fresh, and going back and fusing better versions of more powerful yet low-leveled demons can be extremely satisfying and sometimes key to winning later encounters.

However, the game is not without its faults, and many of them are directed at the gameplay. The Press Turn and demon system is absolutely fine-tuned to be fair and enjoyable, but two new features are a part of SMT4's gameplay, but bog down the experience: Smirking and the partner system. A Smirk gives a unit a chance for a damage buff and high evasion for a turn if they either hit a weak point, get a critical hit, or nullify or evade an incoming attack. Smirks are incredibly powerful and can greatly enhance any party member's damage and survivability, but there are two major flaws in the system. The first is that gaining Smirk is random in nature, but that balances out the potential power advantage that the player has from naturally hitting weak points. But, this leads into the second problem: enemies benefit from Smirk disproportionately to the player in a way that is oppressive in nature. The randomness of Smirk and the power and bulk of enemies compared to the player spells almost certain death the moment they either hit a party member's weak point, get a critical hit, or dodge an attack, usually resulting in a game over from mere chance rather than the enemy outsmarting you and your demons. Smirk as a whole is a nice concept, but its inherent randomness and lack of benefit-cost balance for both sides tends to make some battles either completely one-sided or frustrating.

The partner system allows a random or predetermined main character, depending on the story progress, will accompany you on non-sidequest missions as a fifth member of the team. This can range from an independent party member that attacks at the end of a player's turn set or an escort mission (everyone loves those right) with no offensive capabilities. Partners and the system in general are completely superfluous and flat-out terrible; they add nothing to the experience and only serve to frustrate the player. Offensive partners attack with a random skill from their moveset, which brings up the obvious problem of randomly selecting an attack the enemy is immune to or another opportunity for them to dodge. This makes some enemies, or even boss fights in particular, a complete crapshoot or even unplayable if you have the wrong partner, as getting a Smirk on the enemy is bad enough. A perfect example of this is the infamous Minotaur, one of the first bosses in the game. The player may get Walter randomly, who has a skill Minotaur is immune to: Fire. This immunity combined with its immense physical strength can make this fight almost impossible depending on if Walter doesn't suffer a lobotomy and use Agi on it for the third time. Enemies can also attack party members, and get Smirks off of critical hits, while partners hitting a weak spot does not benefit you in any way. Purely passive partners (or items) aren't useful at all either, with them only being a burden or even preventing the main character from acting in certain missions. The only time partners are useful is if they have support spells on them, with Isabeau and a late-game partner carrying heal or reflect spells, but other than that, partners do nothing to better the experience. They feel tacked on and only serve to frustrate and hinder the player a large majority of the time.

A problem with Tokyo as a city is that the world map and navigation is among the worst I have ever seen in a video game. Despite the Minotaur being fought previously, you're essentially in a labyrinth the entire game, with a huge (but realistic) map of Tokyo with no discerning landmarks of any kind. Everything sort of blends in on the main map, and is navigated differently from Mikado, where you select where to go from a drop-down menu, while Tokyo is purely open world in nature. I literally had to use Google to find the location of nearly every quest location and major city in the game, sometimes more than once. The fact that Tokyo is such a large map and there are no major landmarks or large differences to memorize the location of districts or locations makes navigating the dilapidated city a complete chore, even with fast-travel points set across major cities. Even if there were landmarks, the general setting of Tokyo is rather homogeneous, which prevents major differentiation between key areas, as most are either underground districts filled with distraught citizens and shops or outside in a drab ghost town are usually indistinguishable without proper context of what the area actually is. Mikado doesn't prepare you for this conundrum either, due to its navigation being exclusive and completely different from the rest of the game.

Some personal nitpicks I have include the game's difficulty progression (on Normal, with side quests being completed as I went), and the slight misleading of the demon system. Once you start out, Naraku and early Tokyo is rather difficult, but the game became significantly easier for me over time with better demons and skills. Some bosses mid-to-late game were almost a complete joke, including the final boss of the Law route, with only a sidequest boss giving me significant trouble later in the game (fuck beelzebub). However, this is rather subjective and I haven't compared Normal and Hard with each other yet. The demon system nitpick isn't really a criticism but rather a general warning to those who wish to play older titles. From Devil Survivor: Overclocked and back, you do not have a choice on what skills demons inherit, making demon fusion more of a trial-and error process than anything else. Despite this, choosing inherited skills has become a staple in both SMT and Persona, so if you only wish to play from Devil Survivor: Overclocked and forward, don't worry about this difference.

massive tl;dr smt4 is an excellent gateway into the franchise, with a very intelligent and interesting setting and story along with challenging gameplay, but newer elements are unrefined and can sometimes frustrate the player with events out of their control, more so than the usual RPG. If you're looking for an accessible and good place to try out SMT, look no further. Also it's $20, and the quest DLC comes to around the same price if you want more gameplay content. There's also costumes but those don't really add to anything.
 

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