VGC Revising VGC

[MDK]

So been a while since I last posted here.

I wanna hear some opinions of my team, feel it could really do with a touch up.

Dialga @ Shuca Berry

Ability: Telepathy
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature


- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
- Protect

Pretty much a legendary I wanted to use when the new rules were announced, found it was a decent answer to Xerneas, Rayquaza and even decently handles Primal Groudon
Even if P-Don runs 252 HP and 252 SpD (I know it won't but for arguments sake
Earth Power always 2HKOs as long as they don't run those EVs AND a +SpD nature

Shuca Berry ensures Precipice or EQ don't one shot so it's pretty bulky

Flash Cannon for secondary STAB and fairies
Draco Meteor as a nuke, it OHKOs Salamence, Rayquaza which is what I feared the most in VGC




Groudon @ Red Orb

Ability: Drought/ Desolate Land
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Atk / 20 Def / 136 SpD
Brave


- Fire Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Precipice Blades
- Protect


Obligatory Groudon, the EVs focus on a bit of bulk but at the same same some attack

Fire Punch because Fire STAB in Desolate Land
Thunder Punch however is to hit Water types and Primal Kyogre if I predict the switch
Precipice Blades because it's Primal Groudon, though I did consider EQ for the accuracy but the power drop is noticable



Salamence @ Salamencite

Ability: Intimidate/Aerilate
EVs: 20 Atk / 236 SpA / 252 Speed
Naïve


- Double Edge
- Hyper Voice
- Draco Meteor
- Protect



One of the most dangerous Megas by far, I always am scared by Salamence because it can be either physical, special or both, and until I know which one it is it’s too late so I thought I’d use it too.
This thing is THE answer to Mega Rayquaza, it’s faster and hits hard enough to OHKO so I chose it as my mega for this reason
Double Edge and Hyper Voice to hit really hard and Draco Meteor to hit the hardest
Intimidate also helps a lot






Conkeldurr @ Sitrus Berry

Ability: Guts
EVs: 20HP / 248 Atk / 12 Def / 228 SpD
Adamant


- Ice Punch
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Wide Guard



Conkeldurr used to be a staple on my team back when it has it’s trust Assault Vest but with the arrival of Xerneas, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza and even Mewtwo, his keen sense of fashion has gone out of style

But that’s not to say he is totally useless, I decided since his bulk is not so bulky by todays standard of bulkitude, he can at least help against moves like Rock Slide, Hyper Voice, Dazzling Gleam, Earthquake, Origin Pulse and Precipice Blades rather well, that is the reason for Wide Guard

Ice Punch is for Landorus T, Salamence and Rayquaza
Drain Punch for a strong way to deal damage to things like Kyogre
Knock Off because it’s okay I guess



Landorus T @ Choice Scarf

Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP /252 Speed
Adamant


- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- U-Turn
- Superpower



A common staple in VGC, this is a pretty standard Landorus T set, U-Turn for pivoting

Earthquake for the strongest damage Landorus can really achieve in its typing and deals with Primal Groudon
Rock Slide for flinches and Superpower for Mega Kangaskhan
Intimidate works really well with Salamence as well, double intimidate shuts physical Pokemon down a lot.



Thundurus @ Expert Belt
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Speed
Timid


- Thunder Wave
- Taunt
- Hidden Power-Ice
- Thunderbolt


Also a common staple in VGC, Taunt shuts down Geomancy, Thunderwave can cripple Mega Ray or anything really that needs to be slowed, Thunderbolt handles Primal Kyogre pretty well and HP Ice for Landorus, Ray, Salamence etc

 

[GradeAGarchomp]

hi MDK, sorry that I couldn't rate yesterday, but I think I will be able to today.

Conkeldurr is better off not being used, and can instead be changed for something like a Cresselia.

Cresselia @ Mental Herb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 8 Spe
- Trick Room
- Ice Beam
- Helping Hand
- Skill Swap

Cresselia helps you with providing more speed control for your team via Trick Room. Mental Herb is a buffer against Taunt, generally meaning that Cresselia will get Trick Room up. The spread comes straight from the analysis and makes Xerneas's boosted Dazzling Gleam a 3HKO. 8 Speed IVs allow you to successfully use Skill Swap as the opponent gets the weather first, letting you Skill Swap right after to get the weather into your favor.

The rest of the changes are minor, so here they go.

Groudon: You can use a more optimal Groudon spread and moveset which consists of this:

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 92 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpA / 156 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Precipice Blades
- Rock Slide
- Overheat
- Protect

This a more optimal Groudon spread now that Trick Room is involved on your team. Thunder Punch isn't quite needed as Precipice Blades does enough damage to Kyogre anyway, which makes it ripe for picking up the kill. This EV spread lives Precipice Blades from opposing Groudon while also living Earth Power from special variants. Overheat is mainly for picking up the KO on Ferrothorn without taking any recoil damage, but it can heavily damage almost anything with its boosted power in the sun.

Salamence:

Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Aerilate
Level: 50
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hyper Voice
- Double-Edge
- Protect

20 Attack is outdated on Mega Salamence now since most Amoonguss run more Special Defense to suit the current meta, and not Max HP / Max Defense Relaxed. Max Special Attack just gives Hyper Voice more power, which is nice.

I'd probably just run Choice Band on Landorus, since the extra power boost is always nice. Always up to you though. :)

Also, while it may seem weird, I suggest a slight change in the Thundurus set.

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
Level: 50
EVs: 36 HP / 220 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wild Charge
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt
- Protect

Now this may seem a bit strange, but a physical Thundurus might find a home here on your team. Since your team has a bit of trouble killing Kyogre, Wild Charge is nice for OHKOing most all types of Kyogre. (Thunderbolt has some trouble breaking through that 160 Special Defense it has). The EV spread gives Thundurus a Life Orb Number while maximizing Speed with the rest in Attack. Protect is chosen over HP Ice since you already have some countermeasures against Dragon-types in Dialga.

That's all I have, and I hope I have helped. :)​

 

[Draconid997]

Hey MDK :D
I think i rated one of your teams a while back, and i think this one is looking pretty good :)
We haven't seen many dialga/groudon teams this year, so it's nice to see some people trying out the archetype
I have to say i agree with all GradeAGarchomp's suggestions including the conk -> cresselia switch, but there are a couple other small things i will suggest:

Dialga @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Telepathy
EVs: 244 HP / 116 Def / 68 SpA / 76 SpD / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Flash Cannon / Flamethrower
- Trick Room
- Protect

This spread is a bit more optimal for your team specifically since you have double intimidate, because it allows you to survive 3 precipice blades from a -1 primal groudon in conjunction with sitrus berry, whilst simultaneously surviving an earth power from groudon, (i.e you don't need shuca berry) plus kyogre is checked more easily with sitrus berry.
Dragon pulse, looking at usage is a LOT more popular than draco meteor, and for good reason. It allows you to operate in TR without the worry of dropping SpA immediately, plus it still OHKOs mega salamence.
Flamethrower is a good trade for flash cannon if you want to improve your ferrothorn matchup

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 156 Atk / 92 Def / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Superpower
- Explosion

Choice band landorus-t is a lot more common than scarf this year, as most threats it ideally counters are pretty bulky, so this allows it to pull off pretty big damage against large threats to your team. Another perk to CB is that landorus will still outspeed all max speed primals by one point, so it's still relatively fast. The EVs just allow you to survive 3 brave birds from talonflame, with the rest in attack and speed, althought you could just go with the standard 4/252/252 if you want.
The main thing that may jump out from this change is the use of explosion over rock slide, which is mainly for leading with dialga, as it allows you to bring in mega salamence etc as well as doing massive damage to your opponent. Rock slide on this set was really just for ho-oh, but since you have stuff like salamence, rock slide groudon and thundurus for it it's the safest switch, given you need superpower for ferrothorn.

This EV spread lives Precipice Blades from opposing Groudon

A quick note, the spread survives a single target precipice blades from jolly max atk groudon

And that's it! i think GAG covered everything else that i was going to, so i hope i helped and good luck with the team!

 

[iPRODiGY VGC]

You guys beat me to it :( I don't have a whole lot else to input here. The only thing I can think of is perhaps changing Expert Belt to Focus Sash so he's not OHKO'd by Kyogre's ice beam.

 

[MDK]

Thanks for all your suggestions guys

I have been checking both here and Serebii and what I can take is my team is too hyper-offensive, I have been debating about dropping Conk for Whimsicott and I really like GradeAGarchomp's physical Thundurus set, even with no attack investment but with a Life Orb it does about 98% of damage to a standard P-Kyogre set so I definitely am going to swap out for a physical one

 

[Draconid997]

Thanks for all your suggestions guys

I have been checking both here and Serebii and what I can take is my team is too hyper-offensive, I have been debating about dropping Conk for Whimsicott and I really like GradeAGarchomp's physical Thundurus set, even with no attack investment but with a Life Orb it does about 98% of damage to a standard P-Kyogre set so I definitely am going to swap out for a physical one

I've had a look at the feedback you've recieved over on serebii, and there are a couple of points that i disagree on. Sorry if i seem at all harsh in this post, you are of course entitled to your own opinion
In short, what i would like you to try out is cresselia over whimsicott/conkeldurr, and run trick room on dialga, with the spreads that we have suggested, as i will explain.
Here are my thoughts on the feedback from serebii:

I see outside of the frail Thundurus that you have no speed control. Have you considered a tailwind user? Talonflame/Whimsicott etc. I mean, if your opponent manages to get tailwind it will make the job of this team much more difficult. Your team seems a bit contradictory to me. You have some speedy mons who would benefit from tailwind meshed together with almost trick room type mons.

Using cresselia over conkeldurr and TR dialga would fix this perfectly. Not only because this would benefit your restricted duo infinitely, but would mean your team would perfectly fit into the semi-TR framework (which is not at all contradictory):

1x Slow Support (Cresselia)
1x Slow Attacker (Groudon-Primal)
2x Medium Speed Attackers (Dialga/Landorus-T)
1x Fast Attacker (Salamence-Mega)
1x Fast Support (Thundurus)

If you use a whimsicott in place of cresselia, as you can see, this would throw the well balanced framework out of alignment, meaning you won't have a slow mode which 75% of all dialga (which usually run TR) would benefit from, as well as your slow groudon. Having cresselia will ensure that your team has modes against all types of threats, including RayOgre teams, which i will come on to later

I would also argue that cresselia fills a greater support role than whimsicott.
Let's look at what they can do

Cresselia gets skill swap, whilst whimsicott gets worry seed:

• Skill swap will allow you to set up desolate land against opposing kyogre, which is absolutely crucial, since without having your own desolate land up, kyogre is able to OHKO your groudon without a worry. A point for cresselia

Whimsicott has access to Prankster Tailwind, Safeguard and Encore, whereas Cresselia has access to TR and can typically run an attack (ice beam) to handle threats to groudon

• For one, Trick Room outclasses Tailwind, given that you already have thundurus for speed control
• Encore is only really for protects, fake outs and alike, which if your opponent is smart enough will avoid playing, whilst ice beam can handle big threats to groudon such as salamence, landorus-t and rayquaza
• Safeguard is the only real perk that whimsicott gets when compared with cresselia on a team like this, given that it can stop smeargle's DV

Cresselia's bulk allows it to gain access to useful items such as mental herb, whereas whimsicott is typically forced to hold the focus sash, restricting its options

• This speaks for itself

Looking at usage

• PGL states that cresselia is the 10th most popular pokemon on battle spot, which going by the fact that most cresselia are paired with groudon suggests that it is a better partner for groudon, and the viability rankings will support this point

Hope this explains my point, and here is a sample set:

Cresselia @ Mental Herb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 8 Spe
- Trick Room
- Ice Beam
- Helping Hand / Gravity
- Skill Swap

Same as before, this set allows you to survive 3 moonblasts from xerneas, and will allow you to outspeed groudon by only one point when under trick room, which means that you will be able to use skill swap as safely as possible, since you will always be able to skill swap onto groudon and crucially guarantee to get desolate land up against opposition such as primal kyogre+skill swap
Skill swapping levitate onto groudon also gives you similar support to wide guard, blocking precipice blades from opposing groudon as well as blocking water spouts from kyogre, and so on and so forth

The problem with your strategy against Xerneas and P-Groudon is that you are so slow

Trick room on two pokemon absolutely fixes this, as well as your thunder wave user when outside TR for vs xerneas

What I would do with this team is actually replace Thundurus with a 2nd TR setter, preferably one with Levitate.

As i have mostly explained in the previous section, i think that the most viable choice to switch out for cresselia is conkeldurr/whimsicott, given conkeldurr/whimsicott's viability and thundurus' usage

I really think you should just run Trick Room on Dialga. Unfortunately the Telepathy Dialga is locked into a Modest nature, but you can still try to get as low a speed IV as possible.

Honestly i completely disagree with this statement.
A modest nature will allow you to function in both outside and inside trick room. Given that 75% of dialga run trick room and 73.3% of dialga run a modest nature, the usage stats kind of prove this point. Please refrain from using a dialga with minimum speed IVs, since you won't be able to use this outside TR as best as you can, as you won't be able to outspeed what is necessary. This again will mean that the semi-TR framework is disrupted, as you need dialga to hit threats whilst both inside and outside of trick room.
Dialga with trick room will mean that you can check RayOgre teams much more efficiently, as without running TR, RayOgre is able to outspeed dialga and potentially win the matchup, whereas against slower teams, it is better to have dialga as what is called an anti-TR user, where dialga is able to reverse the conditions to gain momentum against the opponent.

Again, i would recommend this sample set:

Dialga @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Telepathy
EVs: 244 HP / 116 Def / 68 SpA / 76 SpD / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Flash Cannon / Flamethrower
- Trick Room
- Protect

(I have already explained this spread in my last post)

I would give Dialga Trick Room and either Lum Berry or Mental Herb, and the 2nd TR setter the other item.

Cresselia is the best candidate for mental herb/lum berry. Not just because of the significant benchmarks that sitrus berry achieves (-1 groudon's precipice blades is a 3HKO), but also because cresselia is pretty much taunt bait, whilst dialga is an offensive trick room setter and can operate against taunt users pretty well without the need for mental herb. Looking at usage, 36.8% of dialga run sitrus berry (a combined 20.9% of dialga run lum/mental herb), whilst 51.8% of cresselia run either lum berry or mental herb

Your team is all offense.

I disagree with this
You would have a well balanced team with these changes, with cresselia for primal groudon support, with a great balance between bulk, offense, support and speed all round
Thundurus provides taunt/thunder wave support
Salamence/Landorus-T provide intimidate support
Dialga would give you TR and anti-TR support

You have no redirection.

This is really unnecessary. Cresselia/groudon is a good enough lead to set up TR against most opposition, and dialga/landorus-t will provide you with explosion/intimidate support to allow you to set up TR against tougher opponents

I hope i was able to give you a more concise rate through this post, and good luck with the team!

Here is the pastebin with the updated team for ease of access/critique :D
http://pastebin.com/33G7Rbw6

 

[MDK]

I decided to go with Draconid997 's suggestions with a few of my own little tweaks

I took the Groudon and Cresselia but took GradeAGarchomp 's Thundurus set (because it's awesome, it's an amazing lure for Primal Kyogre, when they think it's a standard T-Bolt set which Kyogre's rarely fear


As for my tweaks (or lack there of) I decided to keep Landorus as Adamant with a scarf with his set as is, Jolly with a band might lose that speed which is pretty crucial to outspeed and KO Kyurem-W which from the many battles I had on Showdown run scarf.
Because Superpower seems to ALWAYS OHKO Kyurem-W and alot of what seems to be uninvested Mega Khans

So far it's working amazingly

 

[MDK]

Gracias guys, without your help, I couldn't achieve this https://twitter.com/TheReMARCable/status/731897768277610496

 

[Draconid997]

Gracias guys, without your help, I couldn't achieve this https://twitter.com/TheReMARCable/status/731897768277610496

Np man! Grats on your placing too, which nationals was that?

 

[MDK]

Np man! Grats on your placing too, which nationals was that?

South Africa

I came 4th, the 1st and 2nd placers were some guys travelled from from Germany (Suspect they might have been cheating, waaaaay too good)

I was SOOOO close to 3rd place but i missed the Rockslide that would've knocked out his Paralyzed Hydreigon sitting on 7 HP

 

[Draconid997]

South Africa

I came 4th, the 1st and 2nd placers were some guys travelled from from Germany (Suspect they might have been cheating, waaaaay too good)

I was SOOOO close to 3rd place but i missed the Rockslide that would've knocked out his Paralyzed Hydreigon sitting on 7 HP

That's so cool man, you got any battle videos? would love to see the team in action :]

 

[MDK]

That's so cool man, you got any battle videos? would love to see the team in action :]

I do indeed, i'll write the codes up tomorrow, just about to head off to bed since it's moderately late

But just wanted to lay the news about the success of this team while it's fresh

So the win ratio for this team according to Showdown and the actual Nationals is about 65:35 win ratio

 

[aki0s]

Hoi,

Sorry for the miss, but well played! Had no idea you built your team here. Looking forward to facing you again next time. :)

 

[MDK]

Hoi,

Sorry for the miss, but well played! Had no idea you built your team here. Looking forward to facing you again next time. :)

Youse spying on meh?!

Kidding, yeah, I wanted some expertise about what I was doing right and wrong, took alot of suggestions from here but kept some stuff


But I am thinking about reevaulting Landy's set, Scarf is outmatched for Xerneas, maybe I should go with Assault Vest and run Knock Off

 

[aki0s]

Hahahah.

AV Lando is pretty underated rn tbh. It sounds gucci.
Q: Going to worlds y/n?

 

[MDK]

Hahahah.

AV Lando is pretty underated rn tbh. It sounds gucci.
Q: Going to worlds y/n?

'less I can scramble more or less 25k

Don't think it's gonna happen

 

[aki0s]

Same problemo here. Gon' try my best to make a plan tho.

Anywoo, see you around.