Return to Kanto - RBY in 7th Gen

Chou Toshio

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RBY, the very first gen-- it presents a completely unique OU environment where there were less than 20 viable Pokemon. Pretty extreme when later statistically built OU gens would have an average of over 50 mons, and a gen like 7th has more like 80 that are good, and maybe over 100 with viable niches. A lot has changed-- but a lot has changed for those original 150 Kanto mons as well.

This is a thread to discuss how a "Kanto-Only" metagame would look, given 7th Gen mechanics, all items available, and all evolutions and forms of our original 151 friends would look like. What would the meta look like, and how would it differ from RBY's original meta?

Here are the assumptions shaping this theoretical limited metagame:

-The first 151 Pokemon are allowed
-All mons that evolve from, or evolve into the original 151 Pokemon are allowed (including Mega Evolutions)
-Alternate forms (such as Alolan) of the original 151 are also allowed.
-Items, Z-moves, all mechanics, are updated to Gen 7.
-Mewtwo is the only banned Pokemon (similar to RBY, except Mew is allowed because let's face it Mew would not be broken here)
-Clauses are identical to those of the Smogon RBY OU meta (So there are none of the modern rules on Baton Passing, etc.)

Compared to RBY, a lot of things get tossed on their heads. Venusaur outclasses Exeggcutor, and Tauros is basically an inferior Dodrio (not to mention Mega Kang!). But looking at how Mega Alakazam or Mega Slowbro would perform, and maybe things haven't changed so much for everyone. Unless your name is Charizard.

From a modern meta standpoint, it poses really interesting limits on the meta-- with Scizor and Steelix being the only defensive steel-types, Mega Gyarados being the only really good Dark-type (others include Umbreon, Persian-A, Raticate-A, /end), Machamp being the only really good Fighting-type-- makes you wonder if the two considerable Fairy-types, Clefable and Sylveon, are nearly as powerful as they otherwise would be with more dragon, dark, and fighting mons around. Psychics seem way more broken than in a modern meta, but way less than they were in RBY. With such limited selection of defensive mons, it makes you wonder if things like Z-Conversion Porygon-Z and Shell Smash Cloyster can be reined in nearly as much.

Which mons do you think would be dominant? Which would be common? Which kings of RBY would fail? By a quick look-over of the original 151 list, where RBY had less than 20 OU Mons, a 7th Gen Kanto might have 50 or more, and maybe as many as 70 mons with a considerable niche.

How do you think the meta would look?
 
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Adeleine

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I'd predict such a meta to be very centralized around Speed and quick offense, as there are no shortage of speed demons (Mega Alakazam, Mega Gengar, Mega Beedrill, Dugtrio, DD Mega Charizard X come to mind), making a strong start right off the bat very important to prevent fatal momentum loss. The typings and abilities of these threats will make checking them a huge hassle; Mega Slowbro is pressured by Shadow Balls, Uturns, and Crunches, Rhydon/Golem are weak to Waterfall/all special moves, Chansey is Uturned on or even trapped, while even the mighty Fairy Clefable is eliminated by Mega Gengar and Poison Jabbed by the bee.

We're done with Wrap trapping, but new trapping may be worse... Dugtrio and Mega Gengar will put massive burdens on defensive teams. Chanseys risk of being trapped (no Shed Shell + Eviolite!) or overwhelmed by the new threats may make it a liability often, and it can't try to freezekill bulky wincons like before. Overall, bulky Balance and Stall look very hard to play in this fast-paced meta.
 

Chou Toshio

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Yeah, Alakazam in particular has very few if any answers... Mega Scizor is just about the only Pokemon that doesn't look to get just outright destroyed by Psychic + Shadow Ball + Fighting, or Gengar's Ghost/Fighting/Poison coverage too. If they both know that Scizor is their only real answer, they can both run HP Fire too (No Mega Scizor + Occa berry...). Only relief is that teams can only have 1 mega.

Perhaps the better way to deal with them is to outspeed. Politoed is in this meta, as are Kingdra and Kabutops (and Omastar). Rain actually looks really dangerous and difficult to deal without Ferrothorn around-- if Venusaur has to come in with a weakened synthesis and deal with a possible +2 Continental Crush or the like.

Stall in general seems to have lots of problems-- with no defensive Ghost choices (Marowak-A I guess), only 2 meh defensive mons with Spikes (Cloyster and Omastar), and just the overall quality of Steel-types.
 

Adeleine

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Oh forgot about sciz, didn't notice the "All mons that evolve from, or evolve into the original" rule. This does mean that Shed Shell Bliss is allowed, which could at least give defensive teams something of a fighting chance against Mgar.

In the vein of Speed Boosting weather, Drought Ninetales with Chlorophyll Venu/Victreebel and others could be very intriguing, but how badly toed pressures tales would be problematic. The grasses would help to some degree though.
 
Well, this is pure theorymonning but MegaGar would destroy this whole idea IMO... it's simply too powerful-fast with such a restrictive ability (NOTHING CAN ESCAPE from Shadow Tag in this meta, besides other MegaGars) for this to be healthy... Also Dugtrio might feel a little bit unhealthy due to losing a few of those mons that usually troubles the mole, like Skarmory and Lando T.

Also, I think Mewtwo is not as broken as initially thought, because while fast and strong, isn't as fast as other threats (Mega Aero, Mega Bee, Mega Zam, Weather and Scarf Mons), isn't as bulky as it was in Gen I due to Special split mechanics and it can't setup as it did in Gen I with Barrier + Amnesia... so, if M-Gar stays, I'm pretty much sure there will be ways to handle normal Mewtwo...

P.D.: Tiksi, if you wanna use a Rock-Ground, go with Rhyperior!
 

Adeleine

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that rule again...rippp.

I think it would have a major centralization effect due to its offense and the power of trapping (but do remember we have Shed Shell), but this centralization would probably work against it, making super-fast (via Swift Swim/Chloro/Scarves) and offensive teams the norm as opposed to the bulky and stall Gar demolishes so well. The loss of many traditional Dug answers is an important point, but its not like things could switch into these answers.

Mewtwo wouldnt be as broken, but remember that it can hold items, and remember it very well... as someone who has played a fair bit of ag/uber this idea repulses me internally, but ScarfTwo would probably be a major set should Mewtwo be legalized. Basically nothing in existence is outspeeding Timid Scarf Mewtwo (e.g. it reaches 591, Weather Jolly Kabutops/Venu hits 568, even SSwim Golduck hits 590 at max), and almost nothing is taking even a timid Psystrike off 154 SpA well, especially due to the lack of psychics/steels.
 

Chou Toshio

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Man, I don't know how I overlooked this, but including Alolan formes means that Alolan Muk is in the mix. This at least gives you an alternative, notable Pursuit user with weaknesses different to Scizor. Of course Mega Gengar and Zam are ridiculous, but Alolan Muk's Dark type, lack of fighting weakness, and good Physical Attack / Special Defense mean that it can help make them a bit more manageable.
 

Bughouse

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I think everyone so far has slept on Mega Aerodactyl. It's the fastest mon out there and can't be as easily removed via pursuit trap. Gengar can't beat it either. And there really aren't many rock resists, much less those that can also eat an Aqua Tail, due to gamefreak's early rock/ground obsession.
 

Chou Toshio

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I think everyone so far has slept on Mega Aerodactyl. It's the fastest mon out there and can't be as easily removed via pursuit trap. Gengar can't beat it either. And there really aren't many rock resists, much less those that can also eat an Aqua Tail, due to gamefreak's early rock/ground obsession.
Aerodactyle does seem like a major pain. On top of Aqua Tail for Rhyperior, it gets Wing Attack for Mega Venusaur and Tangrowth, and can run Fire Fang if Mega Scizor is an issue for the team.

Mega Steelix is decent, but it takes 28-34 even with max defenses (the sp. defensive set can take up to 37% from Aqua Tail). Btw, Porygon2 can wall Mega Aero pretty hard, but it's attacks also don't do much, so gottahope Aero doesn't get up some Hone Claws.
 
I think stall could be quite a force in this metagame. Something like Toxic Slowbro / SR Chansey / AV Muk / SD M-Scizor / Unaware Clef / Defog Zapdos seems very tough to break on paper and most stallbreakers are new gen mons (niche things like SD Zard-X or SR rock types are still problematic though).
 
I think the metagame could be interesting, though I do feel that Mega evolutions will be extremely overcentralizing. Mons like Mega Alakazam and Mega Gengar have power and speed that exceeds Mewtwo in addition to having noticeably more utility (Gengar can trap, cripple stuff with WOW and hypnosis, Alakazam can counter a ton of mons with Trace, create setup opportunities with Encore). Other megas would also be pretty busted, with stuff like Scizor being able to counter 90% of the metagame, Charizard Y being able to 2HKO the entire metagame, etc. etc.

Moving on from Mega's I do feel Z-Moves would be a nice addition to the game. Z-Conversion Electric Porygon-Z seems like it would be an excellent cleaner mid/late-game, especially since it no longer has to worry about as many fast scarfers / strong attackers. It can even run Nasty plot to destroy special walls like blissey. Other mons like Dragonite and Gyarados would also be pretty dangerous thanks to Z-Fly, especially since most flying resist like Steelix and Golem are weak to their coverage moves. There are probably a ton of other pokemon that benefit from Z-moves as well. Due to the lower number of matchups Pokemon have to expirience, I feel that Z-Crystals would be noticeably more useful to win specific 1v1 situations.
 

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