[QC READY 2/3] Klefki

alexwolf

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Slash Play Rough before Dazzling Gleam on the second set and slash a nature that doesn't lower Atk after Calm. Also, what is the purpose of those EVs + Nature on the second set? You are splitting the EVs evenly between Def and SpD, which makes me think you want to have balanced defenses, but this doesn't happen because you are using a +Nature for one of its defenses.
 
I dunno, i think my reasoning was that its Special defense was the lower of the two so i would use a nature to make it higher.
I've edited it with a neutral nature for now, unless Calm/Careful is better.
 

alexwolf

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A Serious nature is not a viable one in competitive play. All that i meant was that i want you to focus on the defensive stat that matters most for Klefki on the dual screes set, or if you want to have both defensive stats equal change the EV spread to reflect this.
 
You have way too many nature slashes going on. I suggest reducing them as 4 on one set just isn't right. For the second set it doesn't matter if one defensive stat is higher than the other...simply use a +def or +sp.def or make slash between both..don't waste a valuable 10% for no reason. Make mention of the inferior spread in AC and don't clutter up the set itself. i doubt that an offensive spread is anywhere is good as the defensive which you should make the primary. make mention of the offensive in AC.
 
Okay, on the first set i just left in the physically defensive set as the main and mentioned that it could be used as a suicide lead in the comments (Should i just take out Dazzling gleam?) and made the defensive stats even on the second one
 
From my experience using this and unfortunately bumping into many others using it, yes, Dazzling Gleam can be mentioned alongside the offensive spread in AC.
 

Molk

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Hey, i was told to post here about the ev spread on the subtoxic set.

As of right now the current ev spread is inefficient, 252 HP, 252 Defense Calm reaches 320 hp, 281 defense, and 232 Special Defense. However, an ev spread of 252 Hp, 152 Defense, 104 Special Defense with a Bold Nature achieves 320 HP, 281 defense, and 236 Special Defense, which has identical stats but a slightly higher amount of Special Defense compared to the current spread.
 
I believe a Parafusion Set should be added. I just used it to ladder to 1700 for the first time (I'm not a great player yet). It tears apart most teams just from opponent's switching after becoming infuriated by Thunder Wave & Swagger shenanigans. If they stay in, they get hit hard by Foul Play or become set-up fodder for Spikes. It at least deserves a mention in the Other Options section.
 
i know you guys dont want swagger but swagger works incredible well with foul play, i hate facing/using klefi but its a great asset imo you double your oponent attack and hit it with him works great behind a sub
 

Jukain

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i know you guys dont want swagger but swagger works incredible well with foul play, i hate facing/using klefi but its a great asset imo you double your oponent attack and hit it with him works great behind a sub
The issue with Swagger + Foul Play is that it's just unreliable. Klefki lacks STAB on Foul Play, amplifying the issue that it just isn't that strong -- no matter how you spin it. If it hits through confusion? Klefki's gone. When it snaps out? You're facing a +2 Attack Pokemon, armed to smack apart your team. Swagger is just too risky a move.
 

alexwolf

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Yeah i really don't want us encouraging strategies that rely entirely on luck. If Klefki has STAB on Foul Play then it would be fine, as it would be able to do a lot of damage even without using Swagger, and after a Swagger and with STAB Foul Play you are 2HKOing even Pokemon that have very small Atk stats, such as Rotom-W or Politoed. But without STAB Foul Play, Swagger + Foul Play is nothing more than a gimmick that inexperienced players like to use to frustrate the opponent. Using Spikes or dual Screens is way better than Swagger in almost all cases.
 
Why not use the same EV spread for set 1 in set 2? if you are against a phisical attacker you can use reflect and the same with a special attacker with light screen and then put the second screen, i have been playing a lot with klefki and people afraid that i run thunderwave and they send out an EQ user like excadrill or mamoswine that are inmune to thunderwave, instead of talonflame or charizard.
 
I heavily disagree that Swagger is a set for inexperienced players. I have used it to great success on other simulators. The fact of the matter is that even a non-STAB Foul Play hits very hard on key threats, especially after the Swagger boost, and if you time your switches in well, Klefki can get a sub up and then Parafusion basically any non-immune threat.

Even with just swagger, klefki can swagger on the switch or from behind a sub, then sub up four/five times and then Swagger again if that somehow didn't grant you a free turn the first time. Pokemon with high attack stats like Aegislash, Talonflame, and Excadrill fall to this easily.

Klefki is better than other users, like Liepard, by virtue of its superior bulk and typing, giving it several opportunities to set up subs or to get both Swagger and Twave.

It may arguably be a less useful set in some situations, but in others it could sweep through a team, or neutralize dangerous threats by forcing switches through confusion and paralyzing the new arrivals. Luck based or not, this is easily one of Klefki's most impactful uses in OU, and not mentioning it would not honestly reflect Klefki's abilities at all.
 
I'm new to the Metagame, but I must say that I've been running Dual Screens, Thunder Wave and Foul Play on mine and it has worked exceptionally well
 

Blast

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I heavily disagree that Swagger is a set for inexperienced players. I have used it to great success on other simulators. The fact of the matter is that even a non-STAB Foul Play hits very hard on key threats, especially after the Swagger boost, and if you time your switches in well, Klefki can get a sub up and then Parafusion basically any non-immune threat.

Even with just swagger, klefki can swagger on the switch or from behind a sub, then sub up four/five times and then Swagger again if that somehow didn't grant you a free turn the first time. Pokemon with high attack stats like Aegislash, Talonflame, and Excadrill fall to this easily.

Klefki is better than other users, like Liepard, by virtue of its superior bulk and typing, giving it several opportunities to set up subs or to get both Swagger and Twave.

It may arguably be a less useful set in some situations, but in others it could sweep through a team, or neutralize dangerous threats by forcing switches through confusion and paralyzing the new arrivals. Luck based or not, this is easily one of Klefki's most impactful uses in OU, and not mentioning it would not honestly reflect Klefki's abilities at all.
Or you could just use Klefki's great defensive typing to force stuff out and actually do something productive with your time, such as set up Spikes / dual screens, rather than fruitlessly attempt to sweep a team with a totally unreliable strategy. The problem with Swagger Klefki is that it can't be consistently useful to its teammates or even itself--you say things like Aegi, Talon, and Exca "fall to this quickly," but they sure as fuck won't if you're on the wrong end of the coin flip.

Also, I don't think SwagKey is any more "impactful" than it is "annoying." Sure, people USE it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's good. Take something like defensive Armaldo in NU for example--it's one of Armaldo's most popular sets, yet isn't on the analysis because it's not a good set. "Common" doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as "effective."

edit: lol I just realized that post was from like a week ago :p
 
Yeah i really don't want us encouraging strategies that rely entirely on luck. If Klefki has STAB on Foul Play then it would be fine, as it would be able to do a lot of damage even without using Swagger, and after a Swagger and with STAB Foul Play you are 2HKOing even Pokemon that have very small Atk stats, such as Rotom-W or Politoed. But without STAB Foul Play, Swagger + Foul Play is nothing more than a gimmick that inexperienced players like to use to frustrate the opponent. Using Spikes or dual Screens is way better than Swagger in almost all cases.
I disagree, or else we wouldn't have made Paraflinch sets for both Togekiss and Jirachi. It is very much part of the game and the truth of the matter is Klefki pulls off Parafusion better than it does Spiking. Not that it's a bad Spiker, but a Parafusion set offers utility and the possibility of a very annoying sweep.
 
Togekiss and Jirachi are not entirely dependent on hax. Air Slash and Iron Head are perfectly legitimate STAB moves, and Thunder Wave is just a good form of support in general. It just so happens that the two work together wonderfully with Serene Grace to occasionally hax an opponent to death. Swagger, on the other hand, is completely hax dependent. It's entire purpose is literally just to attempt coin flips.

Not only that, but Swagger has a far greater risk. If you don't get hax with Togekiss or Jirachi, it's not that big of a deal. If you don't get hax with Swagger Klefki, you're left with a +2 Atk Pokemon that might counter-sweep. Swagger is unreliable and very risky and should be neither encouraged nor relied on. Moves like Spikes, Reflect, and Light Screen are far better options since they actually offer support that your team can benefit from much more reliably. Swagger deserves nothing more than an AC mention, which it already has.
 

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