Data Pokemon Sun/Moon Battle Mechanics Research

ok so quirky question, but this is something that **kind of** pertains to dou so I want to ask it

In gens 5 and 6, once a pokemon reached insanely high speeds, they bypassed trick room and went first no matter what. In bw the exact speed stat where the bug started to occur was 1809, and it seems the exact number was never discovered in oras, all though it seems to start somewhere between 1776 and 3552 according to bughouse's math. I just want to know if this is still a thing in SuMo, more for proper mechanics sake then due to it affecting competitive play.

gen 6 post for more info: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/battle-mechanics-research.3489239/page-52#post-5212167

also tagging Marty since he was the one who helped find the mech last gen n_n
I was doing some testing with this a while back, but school kept me from expanding on it. I think the speed I reached when stuff started to act weird was around 1800 (I was using a ditto with a speed stat of 654, in swift swim rain, quick powder, stat boosts in multiples of 2, whatever can bring the applied number close to 1800). I can try to get proper testing in this weekend if I find time. Also worth noting that the game doesn't like natural stats (excluding HP) to be 654, where it just overflowed to 0 and started counting up again (this is probably somewhere else on the internet already, but I don't really want to find that).
 

Marty

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ok so quirky question, but this is something that **kind of** pertains to dou so I want to ask it

In gens 5 and 6, once a pokemon reached insanely high speeds, they bypassed trick room and went first no matter what. In bw the exact speed stat where the bug started to occur was 1809, and it seems the exact number was never discovered in oras, all though it seems to start somewhere between 1776 and 3552 according to bughouse's math. I just want to know if this is still a thing in SuMo, more for proper mechanics sake then due to it affecting competitive play.
Yeah it's still the same as it was in Gen 5. Used two Ninjask named 452 and 453 (their Speed stats); at +6 in Trick Room, 453 moves first and 452 moves last in Doubles.

Here's a 4-year-old log of asking xfr how exactly the game calculates Speed in Trick Room, don't remember if I ever posted it in a research thread (this is re: Gen 5, but it hasn't changed since). Basically, it's possible to be so fast outside of Trick Room that you move last anyway. This is also how PS has been calculating Speed since then.
13/05/31 said:
[16:05] xfr: ok
[16:05] xfr: speed room has a very simple effect
[16:06] xfr: in the comparison value for turn action sorting, the speed is replaced with 0x710-speed
[16:06] xfr: so if your speed is over 1808 it overflows
[16:06] Cathy: cool
[16:07] Cathy: thanks a lot for that information
[16:07] xfr: the turn is determined by applying insertion sort on these turn action values
[16:08] Cathy: just for avoiding any doubt -- what does it overflow to?
[16:08] Cathy: what is 0x710-(0x710+1)
[16:08] xfr: the 0x10000 value depends on action type, 0x1000 is priority, then subpriority (like lagging tail or that berry), then the actual speed
[16:09] xfr: it will overflow to 1 apparently
[16:10] Cathy: that system is actually pretty clever
[16:10] Cathy: it's more optimised than our series of comparisons
[16:14] xfr: to be precise the exact calculation is 0x2710-speed but possibly due to an error
[16:14] xfr: the precision is truncated to 12 bits for the speed action sorting
[16:15] xfr: however, the real speed value is in fact 0x2710-speed because it would overflow the sub-priority value otherwise
[16:16] xfr: even without trick room speed precision is only up to 4095
[16:16] Cathy: interesting
[16:16] Cathy: is there any way to overflow that other than via trick room
[16:16] Cathy: ?
[16:17] xfr: I don't think so
[16:18] xfr: heh actually...
[16:18] Marty: oh, that explains why the 2012 Speed Deoxys still 'outsped' two Pokemon with no more than 6 Speed in Trick Room
[16:18] xfr: I think with tailwind and scarf Ninjask might hit 4140 at +6
[16:19] Marty: that's very interesting
[16:20] Marty: thanks xfr
[16:20] Marty: I'll go tack on Tailwind to this Swift Swim Agility Deoxys
[16:21] xfr: once again the precision problem only applies to the action order decision
[16:22] xfr: the end of turn effects also are speed sorted, but they do not have priority or subpriority and thus use the full precision
[16:22] xfr: so you if you have an overflow the speed will still be correct for the end of turn effects
[16:25] xfr: ok correction the precision is actually 13 bits
[16:25] xfr: so without trick room the overflow is at 8191
[16:25] xfr: still possible to hit with swift speed I think
[16:26] xfr: Game Freak mistake was to use 0x2710-speed when they should have used 0x1FFF-speed
[16:26] Cathy: so is the effective speed in trick room (0x2710 - speed) & 8191
[16:26] xfr: yes exactly
[16:27] xfr: &8191 is at 021BC7E6 for the action sort
[16:27] xfr: and 0x2710-speed is at 21BCA0C
[16:27] xfr: it simply does LDR R0, =0x2710, SUBS R4, R0, R4
[16:30] Cathy: mm
[16:30] Cathy: interesting mechanics
[16:31] Marty: hmm, I can hit 12096 Speed, let's see how this goes
[16:33] xfr: 12096 will be treated as 3904, try with 8192
[16:33] xfr: and you'll move last against anything
[16:34] Marty: well, I'll also have a second Deoxys at just under 8192
[16:35] xfr: what are you using for making all your tests?
[16:35] Marty: PokeGen and an R4
[16:35] xfr: tedious, tedious
[16:40] xfr: pokecheck has a built in battle video editor for creating test videos instantly loaded into desmume but it's unfortunately incomplete and very difficult to use
[16:48] Marty: http://hastebin.com/raw/texuseqimu [ long expired; see https://pastebin.com/5DeZgAYs instead]
[16:48] Marty: it makes so much more sense now
[16:49] Marty: thanks for the info xfr
tl;dr Speed overflows outside of Trick Room at 8192, and any Speed above 10000 is treated as 10000 before checking whether Trick Room is active or not.
 
I was doing some testing with this a while back, but school kept me from expanding on it. I think the speed I reached when stuff started to act weird was around 1800 (I was using a ditto with a speed stat of 654, in swift swim rain, quick powder, stat boosts in multiples of 2, whatever can bring the applied number close to 1800). I can try to get proper testing in this weekend if I find time. Also worth noting that the game doesn't like natural stats (excluding HP) to be 654, where it just overflowed to 0 and started counting up again (this is probably somewhere else on the internet already, but I don't really want to find that).
So just to be clear, it goes 653 -> 654 -> 0 -> 1?
 
How different are Z-status moves to normal status moves? I know that they can't be Taunted for instance. But what about:
  • Does Conversion 2 work against Z-Nature Power?
  • What happens if you try to Disable a Z-status move?
  • What happens if you try to Encore a Z-status move?
  • Does Grudge work against Z-Nature Power?
  • What happens if you try to Instruct a Z-status move?
  • What happens if you try to Mimic or Sketch a Z-status move?
  • What happens if you try to Spite a Z-status move?
  • If you are under the effect of Torment, which move(s) can you use after a Z-status move?
 
Sorry if this has already been answered and I just missed it, but since nobody's updating the OP any more, what happens if a Pokemon uses Instruct on a Pokemon that just successfully used Transform or Sketch, and as such no longer knows the move it last used? For the sake of being thorough, what happens if it had used one of those moves, but had failed to transform/sketch a new move?

Edit: Again, apologies if this has already been tested and I just didn't see it or forgot, but does giving Imposter to an active Pokemon via Skill Swap or Entrainment still not make them transform?
 
Can Pikachu in a cap use the Pikachu-exclusive Z-Move Catastropika? Asking because in the game data, the capped Pikachus are technically different Pokemon than regular Pikachu (just like the whole Greninja situation), so there's a chance they can't.
 
When Grassy Terrain is in effect, Bulldoze no longer drops speed, in addition to having its power halved.
Just something random I ran across while playing.
 
  • In Gen 6, the games changed a move's type in this order: listed move type -> moves that call other moves use the new move instead -> Normalize changes the move to Normal -> moves now change type (Hidden Power/Judgment/Natural Gift/Techno Blast/Weather Ball) -> if the move is unchanged and still Normal (i.e. not Natural Gift with Chilan Berry), Aerilate/Pixilate/Refrigerate change it to Flying/Fairy/Ice -> if the move is Normal, Ion Deluge changes to Electric -> Electrify changes the move to Electric -> Protean activates -> Gems activate if the Gem matches the move type. Question: now that Normalize has the power boost the other type-changing Abilities do, did it move to where the others are? For example, is a Normalize Hidden Power still its regular type, or is it now Normal? It looks like Normalize is still in the same step it used to be, Hidden Power and Weather Ball were unaffected by it. (UltiMario)
So here is my question: does normalize still boost a move if that move actually ends up as another type? in this replay normalize is paired with a spooky plate judgment thus results in a ghost type judgment but somehow still receives the 1.2 boost.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-571346604
Furthermore, in this same replay I notice that normalize+nature power under electric terrain is still normal type, is it the case on the cartridge?
 
Probably hard to test and not exactly relevant outside of some OM's, but is it Shedinja that's hardcoded to always have 1 HP, or base 1 HP itself that's hardcoded for that?
 
It is hardcoded to have only 1 hp.
Yes but is it Shedinja itself, or base 1 HP? What I mean by that, is if you gave shedinja base 10 HP, would it still have 1 HP. Or if you gave another mon base 1 HP, would its HP become 1? And yes, I know that following the stat formula, base 1 HP does not give 1 HP. I was wondering this question since the showdown damage calculator will give one HP when you set base HP to 1.
 
Yes but is it Shedinja itself, or base 1 HP? What I mean by that, is if you gave shedinja base 10 HP, would it still have 1 HP. Or if you gave another mon base 1 HP, would its HP become 1? And yes, I know that following the stat formula, base 1 HP does not give 1 HP. I was wondering this question since the showdown damage calculator will give one HP when you set base HP to 1.
Shedinja gets its hp from somewhere outside of the base stat files. It is always 1
 
If Mew holds Mewnium Z, and Transforms into a Pokémon with Psychic, can it still use Genesis Supernova?

Several Abilities are locked, although the list of Ability-changing effects listed seems to be different for each one, and some Abilities aren't listed, although perhaps they should. Can we clarify that:
  • Comatose
  • Disguise
  • Schooling
  • Battle Bond?
  • Power Construct?
  • RKS System?
  • Shields Down?
cannot be removed or copied via:
  • Entrainment
  • Gastro Acid
  • Mummy
  • Power of Alchemy
  • Receiver
  • Role Play
  • Simple Beam
  • Skill Swap
  • Trace
  • Worry Seed
(Or maybe they can?)
If it constitutes a forme change (with the exception of Cherrim for some bizarre reason) the entire list can't touch it by default. Gamefreak seems to be protecting all of the other forme changes from being interrupted. That'd be all of those abilities except Comatose.

I haven't personally tested Alc/Receiver with Comatose (it's certainly blocked though), but I can confirm the rest of the list is correct.
Can I ask for clarification as to if any of the listed abilities can be changed/copied by any of the listed means if they're hacked onto a Pokemon that normally wouldn't have that ability? What if said Pokemon tries to Mega Evolve, revert to a primal state, or use Transform?
 

UltiMario

Out of Obscurity
is a Pokemon Researcher
I recall that Comatose works as normal regardless of what has it. Edit: Hacking forme abilities onto Pokemon that shouldn't have them works as normal as well. They still block ability changing moves.

I'm pretty sure forme changing (Transform, mega evo) are treated completely differently. You're a "new Pokemon" as far as the game is concerned. Comatose Medicham would still be Huge Power Mega Medicham, because Mega Evolution basically deletes your Medicham and replaces it with a Mega Medicham with the same IV/EV/Nature/everything else for the rest of the battle.
 
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Comatose is coded to only work on a Komala since it's exclusive to it, like Disguise, Battle Bond or Power Construct for instance
That does not make any sense. Comatose isn't a forme-changing ability, so it shouldn't be hardcoded to Komala.

But then again, this is a game made by Game Freak...
 
I recall that Comatose works as normal regardless of what has it. I'll test if hacked forme abilities block those moves in the next 24h and edit this post.

I'm pretty sure forme changing (Transform, mega evo) are treated completely differently. You're a "new Pokemon" as far as the game is concerned. Comatose Medicham would still be Huge Power Mega Medicham, because Mega Evolution basically deletes your Medicham and replaces it with a Mega Medicham with the same IV/EV/Nature/everything else for the rest of the battle.
Comatose is coded to only work on a Komala since it's exclusive to it, like Disguise, Battle Bond or Power Construct for instance
As Ultimario said, Comatose does work on Pokémon other than Komala, even if it needs to be hacked to get there. Of course, he also said he'd edit that post with the results of testing some of the other abilities...
 

UltiMario

Out of Obscurity
is a Pokemon Researcher
On sim, Trace can't copy comatose. If comatose is supposed to be treated as normal, this is probably improper behavior.
The sim is correct. You can't Trace Comatose.

As Ultimario said, Comatose does work on Pokémon other than Komala, even if it needs to be hacked to get there. Of course, he also said he'd edit that post with the results of testing some of the other abilities...
Been a little busy. Hacking abilities like Disguise and Stance change onto Pokemon that shouldn't have them still blocks the moves that change abilities, as on the above list. So those abilities are hard coded to block those moves in general.
 
this isnt gonna have any effect in battle, but just wondering if you take a normal greninja/zygarde and hack battle bond/power construct onto them without changing anything else, will they work?
 

UltiMario

Out of Obscurity
is a Pokemon Researcher
this isnt gonna have any effect in battle, but just wondering if you take a normal greninja/zygarde and hack battle bond/power construct onto them without changing anything else, will they work?
By "normal" I'm assuming you mean the Greninja and Zygarde with IDs that match Torrent/Protean and Aura Break, but with Battle Bond and Power Construct hacked on instead?

It's possible I'm testing it wrong, but I'm fairly confident that it just doesn't matter. Any Greninja and Zygarde should be able to forme change with hacks.
 

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