Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

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I am taking Merritt's side on this issue. The whole challenge of Pokemon games is not limited to lategame (for people who pick grass starters early-mid stage is often harder). It is cool that Rayquaza roflstomps last few in-game locations but it won't help you with earlier ones. Availability does matter. That's why Pokemon like HGSS' Ho-Oh and Lugia are not considered top tier as well.

For that reason I'd honestly be more inclined to lower Groudon and Kyogre than raise Rayquaza if that's the main concern.
Groudon and Kyogre should not be lowered by any means. They absolutely destroy lategame.
 
I don't have a strong opinion about this, but I would like to add something. While Emerald certainly is unusual for having a level 70 wild Pokemon before the champion, it's also unusual for its string of almost back-to-back major battles from Mt. Chimney to Lilycove City. Missing out on those battles is missing out on a lot. Other than that, maybe one of us should do an Emerald run, save right after Rayquaza becomes obtainable, do the same run twice but once with Rayquaza and once without, and see how much shorter the Rayquaza run is. As far as I can tell, this is the only way to resolve the argument.
 

Merritt

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Other than that, maybe one of us should do an Emerald run, save right after Rayquaza becomes obtainable, do the same run twice but once with Rayquaza and once without, and see how much shorter the Rayquaza run is. As far as I can tell, this is the only way to resolve the argument.
I... don't think this would resolve anything? Nobody is doubting that Rayquaza is an efficient Pokemon to use, that is why it is, at minimum, A rank. The disagreement is purely in whether or not Rayquaza's extraordinarily late availability is enough to keep it out of S rank, and seeing whether or not it's faster to use Rayquaza vs not is an exercise in proving what we already know. If there was any doubt in somebody's mind, yes, it is faster to catch Rayquaza and stomp the rest of the game than it is to not go catch it.
 
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If I'm not wrong, the difference between A and S isn't whether or not Rayquaza is worth using, but how much it's worth using. Is there a better way to answer this?
 
The thing is, Rayquaza is objectively worth using because it is far and away the best thing you can use in late game with the detail (catching it is even evidently done in speed runs despite the detour). The debate stems more from if the portion of the game covered by Rayquaza is a significant enough portion of the game that auto-winning that earns it an S-Rank. Rayqauza sits very far to the positive end of the performance spectrum and very far on the negative end for relative availability. Rayquaza is high tier A-Rank for sure since it essentially makes the game "won" after Sootopolis.
 
I am taking Merritt's side on this issue. The whole challenge of Pokemon games is not limited to lategame (for people who pick grass starters early-mid stage is often harder). It is cool that Rayquaza roflstomps last few in-game locations but it won't help you with earlier ones. Availability does matter. That's why Pokemon like HGSS' Ho-Oh and Lugia are not considered top tier as well.
But the difference between every other Box Legend and Rayquaza is that the other box legends are typically caught within the levels of the first elite 4 member. With Pokemon like Lugia, Ho-oh, Groudon, Kyogre, Dialga, Palkia, and so on they will eventually get outleveled by the E4, and the Champion of the region typically has multiple ways of dealing with said box legend. 45-50 and 70 is a pretty big level difference after all, and when the other box legends start to get outleveled by the other E4 members/Champion, their lack of EVs do come apparent in these battles. Champion Wallace does indeed have a theoretical advantage against Rayquaza, having 3 pokemon with Ice Beam/Blizzard but the level difference is so huge and the fact that your Rayquaza, if you also theoretically that point forward exclusively should be at level 72-75, which pretty much makes it so that Thunder OHKOs all of them. The level difference is a major factor and is really the only reason why I even considered Rayquaza for S tier. Luck withstanding, and a few reusable TMs (and some non-reusable) Rayquaza can and will OHKO anything in its path while surviving any move the AI throws at it, barring critical hits. If Rayquaza was caught at level 45-50 like most of the other Box Legends, I'd wholeheartedly agree with its A tier placement, just like every other Box Legend (barring Reshiram/Zekrom/Kyurem because of their circumstances) but level 70 is just something that is naturally not encountered pre-credits and its just too big and unique of an advantage it has over any other non-glitched Pokemon in the entire series.

But this is all just my personal opinion on the matter, and I'm sure this was discussed way before I even made an account on this website. But hey, sometimes viewpoints change with time.
 
the other box legends are typically caught within the levels of the first elite 4 member. With Pokemon like Lugia, Ho-oh, Groudon, Kyogre, Dialga, Palkia, and so on they will eventually get outleveled by the E4
Ho-Oh and Lugia are above everything bar Karen's Houndoom and Bruno's Machamp when you catch them. You also have more locations to beat before you get to E4 in HGSS giving you a chance to reach even higher level. Heck, even higher than champion's Pokemon.
and the Champion of the region typically has multiple ways of dealing with said box legend
Steven can't deal with Groudon. He simply can't. Lance doesn't stand a chance against Lugia if you decide to teach it Ice Beam+Thunderbolt in Soul Silver.

Also, I want to quote Merritt here.
Nobody is doubting that Rayquaza is an efficient Pokemon to use, that is why it is, at minimum, A rank. The disagreement is purely in whether or not Rayquaza's extraordinarily late availability is enough to keep it out of S rank
 
Ho-Oh and Lugia are above everything bar Karen's Houndoom and Bruno's Machamp when you catch them. You also have more locations to beat before you get to E4 in HGSS giving you a chance to reach even higher level. Heck, even higher than champion's Pokemon.

Steven can't deal with Groudon. He simply can't. Lance doesn't stand a chance against Lugia if you decide to teach it Ice Beam+Thunderbolt in Soul Silver.

Also, I want to quote Merritt here.
Ho-oh and Lugia do come at a comparable level to the Elite Four, but that's just it: They're comparable. You have a good amount of game to go, but even after all that they're not going to massively outstrip the end game even with (H)G/(S)S's lower level curves. Rayquaza comes at level 70, and you could literally use it for literally nothing besides those Major battles and it'll still curbstomp virtually everything you throw it at. It doesn't take any investment to do this even because Dragon has not resistors in Emerald's remaining battles, so it can get away with never being given a TM. It doesn't even have to fear Glacia much because her Ice types won't get the chance to fire off an Ice move, or if they do the level gap means Ray will probably survive despite his weakness anyway. The most investment it requires is maybe one or two Full Restores and an Elixir.

And take it from experience; Groudon requires leveling to put in work against the Elite Four in Ruby. Natural EQ and Drought Fire Blast are definitely important for Steven's team, but consider that it's a mixed bag vs the others: Glacia is "kill or be killed" for a mon that can be outsped if underleveled, plus Thick Fat and Hail to remove his sun, while Drake's team is all Dragon and 4/5 are off the ground and thus ignore EQ. So Groudon is now asking for level catch up, maybe a TM, to contribute before Steven, and then for Steven he does fine againt most of the team, though Claydol and Cradily can be annoying for bulk and Giga Drain, respectively.

Groudon and the other mascots are A-Rank because they take work and have massive returns. Rayquaza takes no investment beyond actually being caught, it's just a matter of if the amount of game left is enough return for A vs S rank.

I want to close this with my take on why Rayquaza should be S-Rank. I look at the rankings as a representation of "how likely am I to consider this mon if I want to go for a run that has efficiency as a high if not number One priority". You can debate how much work Rayquaza has time to put in, but when it's grabbed even for some Speed Runs, there's no arguing that an efficient run has every reason to grab him once he's available. Most other mascots earn an A-Rank on the merit of being a very useful team member once available, though being just that: team members, who thus require training with the others and a little healing or thought process. Rayquaza takes a similar stretch of game and literally becomes the "I win" button. You could run a team of 5 Wurmples and Rayquaza through the Elite Four and still have a more than reasonable chance (albeit maybe with a little more item feeding) just because of how his immediate level and power dwarf everything the game has left for the hardest part. The availability vs performance consideration is usually a thing because depending on the rest of your team's levels and types, or willingness to put up with RNG, maybe you don't need the legendary to make your run more efficient (DPPt come to mind for how much work Chimchar and Starly put in from Route 1). I think Rayquaza represents S-Rank because like those two, there's little (or no in this case) question that catching and using him makes the run more efficient once he's been acquired. Even if you got Rayquaza with timing like Zekrom/Reshiram in BW, the fact that the game freely gives you a Pokemon that wins everything that comes after means it is by all means efficient to use it for what comes after, however little or much that is.
 

DHR-107

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I don't believe it should in in S Rank purely because of its late availability. Yes I understand that it is the quickest Pokemon from that point onwards, but hell, most of your other Pokemon are one shotting with SE moves by that point as well. The only real struggle pops up when you hit the Elite Four. While Ray will flatten everything else, the only time lost vs it is having to switch to other Pokemon to keep the type advantages in your favour, whereas Ray simply doesn't care.

Maybe I just haven't played Emerald all the way through in a long time, but I just don't see Ray as having as bigger of an advantage as you guys are putting forth. Your team should almost be on par in terms of levels anyway (excluding the large-ish jump to Wallace), so you're likely abusing type matchups/strong moves to OHKO most opponents. Why does having Ray be able to do what you can already do make things easier?
 
The thing about it is, Ray single-handedly handles the late game by itself, so it doesn't require smart type match ups, just its presence. This seems like a notable trait since it even eliminates the need for late game synergy or spreading around EXP, just bulldoze things with Rayquaza and maybe have one good support for something like Glacia if you're concerned. No need for a diverse team to be kept leveled well going to the end game (there's still a level climb from Juan to the Elite Four, and some decent diversity in coverage is wanted for normal teams).

Ray does what you can already (in theory) do even easier. It's much lower maintenance to keep on top of 1-2 Pokemon instead of 4-5. Debate the necessity, but Rayquaza's performance is objectively more efficient than anything you'd have in a typical playthrough of Emerald. Availability tends to be weighed against a mon, but that's because it tends to take some time to bring up to speed or simply performs on par with what you already have when they arrive (like Palkia or Azelf in DPPt). Rayquaza does not fit the latter description, you have effectively won the game the second you catch it, a detour that at most takes 5-10 minutes depending on your skill with the Mach Bike and throwing the Master Ball. It's a massive outlier in terms of how the two traits fall compared to tradition, and traditionally the mascots get ranked at A easy. I explained my point for S-Rank based on my perception of the tiering, but it holds because I do think Rayquaza is in the same position with a massive jump in performance compared to other Legendary precedents.
 
I have beaten Emerald today. My team was Blaziken, Gardevoir, Flygon, Tropius, Dusclops and Walrein. Their placement on the list is mostly fair, however Spheal being D tier is puzzling to me. While it comes late, it's not hard to find nor hard to evolve. It is both bulky and strong enough to be a good threat after evolving (the only downside is its below average speed). It can learn 5 HMs which can free some moves slots for your team members. Surf+Aurora Beam+Body Slam is a great starting coverage. It single-handedly destroyed Drake for me as well.

Availability tends to be weighed against a mon, but that's because it tends to take some time to bring up to speed or simply performs on par with what you already have when they arrive (like Palkia or Azelf in DPPt).
What about Ho-Oh and Lugia? Both are available at 45 level which is above E4 (and way above what you currently have). You can easily train them to outlevel Lance's Pokemon too.
What's the big difference? Using 8 PP instead of 5 in a battle?

Additionally, I would like to point out that the necessity of using Master Ball is a drawback (just like reliance on one-use TMs). Realistically speaking, not everyone wants to use Master Ball on Rayquaza when it can be used on other legendary (or for cloning in Battle Frontier but that's another story).
 
What about Ho-Oh and Lugia? Both are available at 45 level which is above E4 (and way above what you currently have). You can easily train them to outlevel Lance's Pokemon too.
What's the big difference? Using 8 PP instead of 5 in a battle?

Additionally, I would like to point out that the necessity of using Master Ball is a drawback (just like reliance on one-use TMs). Realistically speaking, not everyone wants to use Master Ball on Rayquaza when it can be used on other legendary (or for cloning in Battle Frontier but that's another story).
I can't speak on Ho-oh and Lugia from experience as I haven't done an efficiency based run of HG/SS, nor played in a while period. That said, Ho-oh and Lugia come at level 45, which does out level the surrounding fights and the Elite Four, but only slightly. There's a difference between a 5 level difference and a 15 level difference like Rayquaza has over Wallace (who is the strongest thing you'll fight in the main game), as Rayquaza comes out of the box with a significantly larger advantage with a similar stretch of game left in terms of raw battle count. The difference is not 8 PP vs 5 PP, it's getting hit 12 times as opposed to maybe 2-3. And you can train them to outlevel Lance's Pokemon, but Rayquaza doesn't have to be trained to outlevel anything, it comes with stronger STAB and moves out of the box in general, and its better offensive stat inclination means it can tear through anything it wants even more easily. This thing literally solos the remainder of the game the second you grab it, at most needing a couple Ethers an one or two healing items you find at random.

The Master Ball isn't exactly a major cost for this playthrough. Rayquaza is the only Legendary encounter during the main game, which is the time span these runs are concerned with, and this evaluation is based purely on clearing as fast as possible, not with getting to end game specifically to exploit a glitch or fight the Battle Frontier or such. There's nothing that competes for the Master Ball with Rayquaza, both in terms of availability or sheer efficiency granted for its usage. TMs are different because there is a likelyhood two members of your team could both want one, but where the runs this thread concerns itself with cover, things are finished at the Hall of Fame.
 

Merritt

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I have beaten Emerald today. My team was Blaziken, Gardevoir, Flygon, Tropius, Dusclops and Walrein. Their placement on the list is mostly fair, however Spheal being D tier is puzzling to me. While it comes late, it's not hard to find nor hard to evolve. It is both bulky and strong enough to be a good threat after evolving (the only downside is its below average speed). It can learn 5 HMs which can free some moves slots for your team members. Surf+Aurora Beam+Body Slam is a great starting coverage. It single-handedly destroyed Drake for me as well.
Sure! Spheal's got a few inherent issues, but most of them are exacerbated by how late it comes around. I've got a summary of it below, but would be happy to elaborate more if anything seems confusing (if you want a full blown analysis like I did for Aron a bit back I'd be ok with going through that).

Spheal is a consistent but slow Pokemon who has limited use against most remaining major battles, either due to coming at a low level very close to the battle in question (Tate&Liza and Emerald Maxie) or just flat out not being incredibly useful - many of Spheal's battles against major opponents end up turning into a drawn out slugfest which isn't particularly efficient, catches up to the rest of the team slowly due to unfavorable route and wild opponents since a large number are water types, and does not have a significant differentiating factor from most of Hoenn's large number of water types (Water+Ice+Normal coverage is incredibly common, and a massive number of said water types get most of the HMs that Walrein has as well). It further suffers from having a late evolution made worse by unfortunate grinding opportunities almost until Victory Road. It makes up for this by providing a few useful services, such as being a very bulky member of the team when raised to a Walrein, a stronger Ice STAB than most other water types who have a similar movepool, and does very well vs a potentially difficult member of the Elite Four in Drake.

Spheal finds itself in a ranking shared by or above pretty much every other Pokemon that comes that late in the game, with the only Pokemon that come at the same time or later ranked higher being Rayquaza (currently A) for reasons which hopefully don't need to be explained, and Staryu (currently B) who has significantly more offensive prowess than Spheal due to an earlier evolution and much higher speed along with a very interesting TM movepool (Staryu is one of the absolute best users of both the Ice Beam and Thunderbolt TMs you get for free and is honestly worth the money to buy a Thunderbolt TM if it was previously used due to how well Staryu uses it). Both of these Pokemon do extremely well vs the rest of the game from the time they come, with Staryu requiring some investment of TMs and time to level it up slightly and Rayquaza not, and do so significantly more efficiently than Spheal can.

Unrelated note, Treecko has been moved from B -> A

I'm leaving Rayquaza open still since clearly the discussion on it isn't dead.
 
Rayquaza is the only Legendary encounter during the main game, which is the time span these runs are concerned with, and this evaluation is based purely on clearing as fast as possible, not with getting to end game specifically to exploit a glitch or fight the Battle Frontier or such.
Regis can be caught before beating the game. They are worse than Rayquaza in probably every way but they are there. Additionally, I've been told that these tier list are about efficiency, not speed alone (I am NOT defending clone glitch nor claiming Rayquaza is not efficient but I talk in general terms here).

Also, I seriously can't believe Treecko is A tier now. It's pure garbage against many gym battles and trainers (FAR from efficient for like HALF of the game). I apparently do not understand how this tiering works so I will leave the discussion about it to you.
 
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What does "efficiency" constitute for a run like this besides Speed? Efficiency also entails fairly low effort, but the idea remains "clear the game quickly" at its root, just with less work rather than fully optimized time as would a Speed Run. No one's considering the Regis for anything besides an E-Rank "they exist" position because you need to find a rare Relicanth, evolve a Wailord, use Dig, and then go to the much more out of the way cave to unlock them, then their individual out-of-the-way caves to catch what are mediocre Pokemon.
 
Also, I seriously can't believe Treecko is A tier now. It's pure garbage against many gym battles and trainers (FAR from efficient for like HALF of the game).
How is Treecko pure garbage against Roxanne, Brawly (RS), Wattson (E), Tate and Liza, Wallace (RS), Juan (E), Sidney, Phoebe, or Glacia, especially since it has the best special attack and speed of all starters and the TM for bullet seed is on Route 204?
 

Karxrida

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How is Treecko pure garbage against Roxanne, Brawly (RS), Wattson (E), Tate and Liza, Wallace (RS), Juan (E), Sidney, Phoebe, or Glacia, especially since it has the best special attack and speed of all starters and the TM for bullet seed is on Route 204?
Fat Ice-types?!?
 
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Karxrida

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Sceptile often wins the 1v1 against her Walrein, and consistently wins against her Sealeos.
Sceptile needs a crit to kill Walrein, while Walrein OHKOs with Blizzard (RS) and has a chance to OHKO with Ice Beam (Emerald) depending on Sceptile's IVs, Nature, and EVs (too many factors to actually calc this). And Hail chip can easily put Sceptile into kill range.

Sceptile's ability to OHKO the Sealeo consistently is also heavily dependent on its stats and level. While one has Ice Ball (which Sceptile admittedly survives), the other has Blizzard and 2 levels of extra bulk.

Cals were done assuming Glacia's Pokémon have 15 IVs across the board, neutral natures, and no EVs. Sceptile was at level 53 and had a Special Attack IV of 15 with 148 EVs.
 
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How is Treecko pure garbage against Roxanne, Brawly (RS), Wattson (E), Tate and Liza, Wallace (RS), Juan (E), Sidney, Phoebe, or Glacia, especially since it has the best special attack and speed of all starters and the TM for bullet seed is on Route 204?
I agree with Roxanne, Tate and Liza. Brawly may not be as tough in RS but in Emerald he is hellish for Grovyle. Wattson has multiple ways of dealing with grass starter - Voltorb's Selfdestruct has a chance to outright 1hko you, Magneton resists your STAB and hits you with Thunder Wave+Sonicboom, Manectric will paralyze you and drag the battle. As for Wallace, Juan, Glacia, Sidney and Phoebe - Sceptile is not pure garbage against them but it still struggles with some Pokemon. Walrein and Milotic can tank your Leaf Blade and KO you with Ice moves. Dusclops have Ice Beam as well. Banette hits hard with Shadow Ball.
Bullet Seed is a garbage move with average power of 30 (Ember and Water Gun have reliable 40) and long animation. Torchic's line has almost the the same Special Attack as Treecko's line.

Cals were done assuming Glacia's Pokémon have 15 IVs across the board, neutral natures, and no EVs. Sceptile was at level 53 and had a Special Attack IV of 15 with 148 EVs.
Elite Four has 30-31 IVs across the board with no EVs. Sceptile having 53 level with 148 EVs into Special Attack is very generous as well.
 

Karxrida

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Elite Four has 30-31 IVs across the board with no EVs. Sceptile having 53 level with 148 EVs into Special Attack is very generous as well.
Couldn't remember if it was only the Champion with max IVs. This does not bode well for Sceptile's match up because it's more likely to get OHKO'd by Walrein's Ice Beam if it fails to secure the kill, plus it has a harder time OHKOing the Sealeo.

Was kind of generous with Sceptile's level because it's the starter + the endgame is friendly enough to it that you'll be pumping it up with EXP. Didn't really have a frame of reference for a realistic EV number for endgame, so I just pulled one out of my ass that wasn't max.
 
Was kind of generous with Sceptile's level because it's the starter + the endgame is friendly enough to it that you'll be pumping it up with EXP. Didn't really have a frame of reference for a realistic EV number for endgame, so I just pulled one out of my ass that wasn't max.
I would like to help you in that regard so I decided to import my teams from my recent playthroughs. Bear in mind - I don't grind in tall grass but I do beat every trainer available in the game.
 

Karxrida

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I would like to help you in that regard so I decided to import my teams from my recent playthroughs. Bear in mind - I don't grind in tall grass but I do beat every trainer available in the game.
Forgot about the Miracle Seed, not that it matters since your level and EV spread (with a Special Attack IV of 15 for general fairness) mean that Sceptile needs crits to OHKO the two Sealeo.
 

Merritt

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Sceptile needs a crit to kill Walrein, while Walrein OHKOs with Blizzard (RS) and has a chance to OHKO with Ice Beam (Emerald) depending on Sceptile's IVs, Nature, and EVs (too many factors to actually calc this). And Hail chip can easily put Sceptile into kill range.

Sceptile's ability to OHKO the Sealeo consistently is also heavily dependent on its stats and level. While one has Ice Ball (which Sceptile admittedly survives), the other has Blizzard and 2 levels of extra bulk.

Cals were done assuming Glacia's Pokémon have 15 IVs across the board, neutral natures, and no EVs. Sceptile was at level 53 and had a Special Attack IV of 15 with 148 EVs.
Linking these again (probably gonna put them in the OP if it comes up again), they've got the AI value (which corresponds to IVs) listed. For Elite Four purposes since that's what they all are [250] means 30 IVs across the board and [255] means 31 IVs.

http://upcarchive.playker.info/0/upokecenter/content/pokemon-emerald-trainer-list.html
http://upcarchive.playker.info/0/upokecenter/content/pokemon-ruby-and-sapphire-trainers.html

To make so you don't have to search, all of the Elite Four have 30 IVs on their Pokemon except their ace which has 31.

Also keep in mind when doing calcs that in Gen III you'll have that 10% boost to every stat except HP by the time the Elite Four rolls around.

On a related note: holy hell is that a neglected Sceptile in terms of EVs. When you're only barely 60 EVs ahead of the Emerald Walrein who comes almost 7 gyms later that's somewhat worrying.
 
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