ORAS UU Viability Rankings V4

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Yeah like I said cm/synth is rly good but that's all letting florg keep its spot tbh. As well as being able to compress aromatherapy there I suppose.
 
The thing is you cannot afford to make same investment for Sylveon as you make on Florges, thats why Florges is a better special pivot/wall compared to Sylveon
Actually uh, yes you can. Synthesis/Calm Mind is really the only thing Florges has over Sylveon, otherwise it is miserably outclassed by it. Just take a look on how they compare if they're both running, say, a fully defensive bold set.

252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Florges: 218-257 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Sylveon: 244-291 (62.4 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The difference is so little that it doesn't even matter.

Now, offensively...

0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 151-178 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 183-216 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

... Sylveon hits significantly harder. Between what I've just posted and what others have posted before me, it's really hard to justify the usage of a Florges that isn't running calm mind + synthesis over Sylveon. And I honestly do think it's kind of weird how they're both under the same rank while Sylveon is much more accessible due to how many different things it can do; Sylveon rising or Florges dropping are things I can definitely see happening eventually.
 
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Plus as Sylveon has more HP Lefties recovers more each turn than Florges so in the end Sylv would take as much special dmg as Florges.

Sorry 1 line post, I haven't play UU in months but I like to check VR stuff
 
New nominations
Donphan
from C+ to C, C- or even D Rank:
So, who the fuck still use this? I'm serious, this 'mon is completely garbage, if you need to run a Defensive Spinner, run Tentacruel or Forretress, if you really fucking need to run a Offensive Spinner, use Blastoise or Tentacruel. "It's Band set isn't all that bad, since it can check Water- and Grass-Types with coverage moves called Seed Bomb and Gunk Shot, respectively", no, if you really need to run a Offensive Ground-Type use Mamoswine or Krookodile, please, also, Mamoswine can run Freeze Dry and Krookodile can Knock Off them. Seriously, why is this still C+? C+ has a lot of viable 'mons like Linda, Seismitoad, Honchkrow and Haxorus, Donphan isn't viable anymore now that Zapdos is gone and it is weak to the three new drops. Drop this please.

Escavalier
from B+ to A-:
So, Escavalier is a very cool Pokémon, and I'm using it more and more, even after Zam's ban. Why? It's SD Set hardly switches in Hyper Voice from Sylveon and in any attack that isn't Hidden Power [Fire] from Celebi, aside of that, it lose one Counter (Zapdos), and how Offensive Grass-Types and Bulky Psychics rose in usage, I think that Escavalier is more and more viable actually. It hardly walls Reuniclus, Slowking, Cresselia, non-HP Fire, Celebi, non-HP Fire Sceptile-Mega, Whimsicott and non-HP Fire Roserade/Shaymin. Escavalier has a new moveslot too, since Pursuit was used to trap basically only Alakazam. I am running Drill Run, since it ables Escavalier to hit Fire- and Steel-Types harder in the switch, just like Infernape, Entei, Chandelure and Cobalion. I think that I don't need to mention that it is an amazing Draco Meteor switch and a good Powder Immunity too. Escavalier provides a ton of role compression to every single team, aside of fitting very well on fat Playstyles.

Tagging dodmen to say that the B Rank isn't in alphabetical order. PorygonZ needs to be before Porygon2, and Arcanine should be after Ampharos-Mega.
 
So I'm must be either really stupid or really tired at the moment because I'm choosing to defend Donphan of all things

Mr. Highways said:
Donphan
from C+ to C, C- or even D Rank:
So, who the fuck still use this? I'm serious, this 'mon is completely garbage, if you need to run a Defensive Spinner, run Tentacruel or Forretress, if you really fucking need to run a Offensive Spinner, use Blastoise or Tentacruel. "It's Band set isn't all that bad, since it can check Water- and Grass-Types with coverage moves called Seed Bomb and Gunk Shot, respectively", no, if you really need to run a Offensive Ground-Type use Mamoswine or Krookodile, please, also, Mamoswine can run Freeze Dry and Krookodile can Knock Off them. Seriously, why is this still C+? C+ has a lot of viable 'mons like Linda, Seismitoad, Honchkrow and Haxorus, Donphan isn't viable anymore now that Zapdos is gone and it is weak to the three new drops. Drop this please.
Now I'm all up for Donphan dropping to C rank after taking some real consideration of what C+ consists of as of right now, comparing him to the likes of Fletchinder or Haxorus. But I feel like your undermining what it has to offer to the current UU metagame and exaggerating it's weaknesses a little bit too much for my taste. For one thing it's one of the only two pokemon in the tier that can compress the likes of stealth rocks and rapid spin together (the other being forretress) so it at least has something going for it. Our other options consist of Claydol or Kabutops and I'm not too keen on using them in UU at all. Secondly while it might not be the greatest offensive spinner or ground type to use, Seed Bomb as said in the aforementioned post above, can be used to lure Swampert in specifically. Something that might not seem all that great until you realize that most people expect the standard Dongphan set of Knock Off/Earthquake/Rapid Spin/Stealth Rocks or Ice Shard.

252+ Atk Donphan Seed Bomb vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 280-332 (69.8 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not the best of calcs at hand in this argument but at least it shows it can pressure the likes of one of the more common users of Stealth Rock and still spin the rocks away as well.

All I'm saying is that yeah he's pretty bad and the Zapdos rise has hurt him a bit, but not that bad enough to warrant a C- or D ranking. No, he isn't weak to all three drops as previously outspoken in the other post if we take into account Sylveon and Conkeldurr, as both of the two still have some situations in where Donphan can still come out on top (Ice Punch without Life Orb or just not running Ice Punch at all, Outspeeding Modest Sylveon).
 
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I just want to note that I think Escavalier should rise but not necessarily on the basis of its effectiveness as a Sylveon check. Speaking of which I think the SD Escavalier set is 3HKO'd by Hyper Voice from specs Sylveon with rocks down, and I won't talk about the Assault Vest set now that Alakazam is gone. I think it should rise because it just compresses so much stuff; SD Escavalier can check so many relevant things right now, and steel typing is just amazing in general in this metagame at the moment. You compress checks to Sylveon/Florges/Curse Snorlax in addition to pressuring Cresselia which has become immensely popular on teams in this metagame. A good majority of balance teams rely on things like Doublade/Salamence to check this thing's SD set, and in some desperate cases just rely on Scald burns from things like Swampert. More offensive teams though usually don't have too many problems checking the SD set, simply by not giving it room to get going. But yeah escav to A- or something;
 

esche

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some thoughts

from B to B-: Disagree

Come on, we all know Mega Ampharos has some issues, but B- simply is not a representative rank for it. I have to disagree with this nomination, because I've been using M-Amph on the team I laddered with during the suspect test, and I was suprised how well it fared, especially versus slower/bulkier builds. The slow but powerful Volt Switch it provides, coming off an 165 SpA stat, is unique in UU and very much appreciated by a multitude of possible team members, especially physical set up sweepers, which will force out the likes of Blissey, P2, and Umbreon, and leave them damaged, which makes it easier for Ampharos to break through them on its own later on. I also love how people comfortably send in their bulky Pert on it, when D-Pulse does a clean 50 percent on the switch, paving the way for a team member to sweep. Yes, you will have to predict the switch-in but that is exactly what makes M-Amph good. In a sense, M-Ampharos rewards good prediction, because your opponent would want to avoid his Special Wall getting Volt Switch'ed on giving you momentum, which leads to mind games that you can easily exploit by clicking Dragon Pulse (or even Focus Blast if you feel adventurous) on the switch. I am aware that this prediction game can also bite you in the back and create situations that leave you at a disadvantage, but the point I am trying to get across is that Mega Ampharos can excert so much more offensive pressure than it gets credit for. It has the potential to instantly put the match in your favor with one solid prediction, while being able to create momentum in a way that supports its team like no other, and that is exactly what distinguishes it from being in B-.

Also, I don't get why the addition of Sylveon is suppossed to have severely hurt Ampharos' viability. Before Sylveon dropped and became the more favorable Fairy type Wish Passer/Cleric of choice, because of its better physical bulk, higher damage ouput and bigger wishes, it was Florges, who is faster and more specially bulky than Sylveon. Offensive Mega Ampharos had to run max speed investment in order to outrun standard Wish Pass/Cleric Florges back then (assuming it didn't have 16 speed IVs lol), which nobody did because it just was not worth it and you want some bulk, even on offensive M-Amph. Sylveon however, is slower than Florges, which makes it possible for M-Ampharos to not only outspeed it with standard speed investment (run some more for creep imo) and hit it with a Volt Switch after it switches in (which leaves it at like 20~30% assuming you went for T-Bolt on the switch), but also eases prediction, since now you can actually afford to make a wrong prediction (D-Pulse) on the switch and still get away with it. This investement also leaves M-Amph with a respectable amount of bulk, which is nice. Ultimately, the replacement of Florges with Sylveon as the premier Fairy type Wish Passer/Cleric actually helped M-Ampharos more than it hurt it.

Don't get me wrong, M-Amph has its flaws, no doubt about it. It is by no means self-sufficient (even the defensive set appreciates cleric support), has trouble versus full-blown offense and is somewhat prediction reliant. The fact that you have to Mega Evolve it as soon as possible is also kind of annoying (shoutouts Static tho lol), but I don't see too much trouble with it, considering it's not a bad lead in many BO/Balance/Stall match-ups either.

I've been using M-Amph more since the premier bulky Electric type, Zapdos, left the tier and it could definitely use some more love.

TLDR; Mega Ampharos to stay in B.

from B+ to A-: Agree

Let's just face it, Tentacruel is the best spinner in UU at the moment. The utility it provides for teams is amazing, ranging from Haze over T-Spikes to Knock Off, and it is rather easy to fit on teams as a lot of mons benefit from its presence and abilities. Couple that with a solid defensive typing that allows it to check Sylveon, Conk and a bunch of others, and voilà: You got yourself an A- rank mon. The offensive lure set definitely plays its part regarding the nomination for a rise, even though I think the set gets hyped a bit too much (pls don't kill me).

Not much left to say, Manipulative's post summed it up really well for me, just wanted to agree on this.


from B+ to A-: Agree

I whole-heartedly agree on this nomination. SunnyORAS put it really well, the SD set is amazingly good right now, it pressures the shit out of bulkier builds and the free move slot helps its coverage a lot (Pursuit is still good though, even on SD). Personally, I've been using Knock Off > Drill Run, because I like the utility it provides, but either is fine, really. Also, on SD Escavalier, you can actually afford to run a more specially defensive oriented spread with a Careful Nature, which allows it to better check Sylveon and Kyurem at the cost of some immediate power. Considering how Celebi has taken the tier by storm, and how Cresselia keeps getting better and better, I support the rise of Escavalier, who provides a solid answer to both of the aforementioned threats, checks Specs Sylveon better than any other offensively oriented Pokémon in UU could ever dream of, and who has the best design out of the entirety of Gen V (no offense).

(the depiction of a desperate attempt to scald burn a +2 esca with pert or cune is also hilariously accurate, encountered this situation more than once or twice on the ladder lmao)
 

Hogg

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Escavalier is great but I think B+ is a perfect fit for it. It's a good 'mon, and B+ is a good ranking, but I don't think it is at the level of regular Pert, Nidoqueen or Heracross in terms of viability. Definitely disagree with that nom.
 

Thisbemyalt

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I also fail to see how escav got any better with zam leaving, the only change is that escav now checks one less massive threat. Sure you can say it matches up well vs celebi but that alone is not deserving of A-, as for its ability to check sylveon its probably one of the worst sylveon switchins in UU as it gets 3hkod even if its a sp def variant and can basically only switch in once because its slower.

On a side note I was wondering if anyone else is thinking that florges should drop further than A. With sylveon in the tier florges really only has 2 effective sets, wish+synth is a fine set but nowhere near A rank imo and as for CM I have found it to be significantly worse in this meta than it was when we initially ranked it at A+. Is the cm set bad? no its not bad at all but the tier has really become overprepared for fairies in general since sylveon dropped to the point where every team is now running a poison, strong fire, or steel type, this in combination with competing with sylveon and the rising in popularity blissey, makes me believe florges should drop. Frankly I just don't see florges being as good in this meta as mons like sylveon, beedrill, and sceptile.
 
Tornadus from B+ to A- just for this set.


Tornadus @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Spatk / 252 Spe
Hasty/Naieve Nature
- Hurricane
- Superpower
- Taunt/Heat wave
- Tailwind/Rain dance

Simply put this is the most dangerous standalone breaker in the tier to face regardless of playstyle. Hurricane is effectively a 70% accurate ohko move on a vast majority of the tier while most resists and neutral special walls just die to 2 hurricanes (50%, taunt adds safety, confusion raises CoS to 60%), or hurricane + coverage (70%/63% for superpower/heat wave) while tailwind is just so much of an "I win" move in HO mirrors that it's not even funny.

With a speed tier of 111 the only non scarf mons revenging over priority% (roughly 40-55% for lucario and entie, mamoswine has a low chance to ohko if adamant vs - def torn or banded mamo) are crobat, azelf, and the mega's and only maero really has the potential to trap and kill tornadus on a hard 50/50 while only espeed can shut down a suicide tailwind/rain dance.

In short the main counter to tornadus is... a 30% miss chance and this can be mostly removed via smart play, hurricane twice on the switch buffs COS to 91% on ohko's, rain dance is 100% and torn is free to come in on most rain stops, defog is a move, heat wave and superpower are both reasonably safe, taunt is 100% accurate and locks in most passive matchups.

It's a sort of by the numbers reliability that many users will find distasteful but tornadus will on average, do its job in slightly more than 2 out of 3 games with no CoS buffering at all and when tornadus does it's job it is very difficult to lose.

Edit: I would honestly nominate this for A+/S if the community as a whole was more open to high risk/high reward tactics as it has both the BU and defiant sets to add versatility. That said on average (taking into account the games where torn is blind as shit) it has still outperformed the mon's in those ranks for me. A- and raising awareness seems like a good first step though.
 
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I'll agree that Tornadus is an underappreciated Pokemon and that Tailwind is a huge "I win" button against basically everything but stall with the proper abusers late-game, but saying its only counter is the 30% miss chance (which is huge anyway) is pretty fallacious, especially given Torn's frailty and really bad 4MSS. It wants Hurricane, Heat Wave, Superpower, sometimes Grass Knot, Taunt, and Tailwind. Without Heat Wave, it just loses to Mega Aggron barring repeated hax, and Specs Sylveon switches in on any attack but LO Hurricane and OHKOs in return with Hyper Voice. Mega Cursepert, while uncommon, cleanly beats Torn if it comes in while Torn doesn't have Grass Knot. You live two Life Orb Hurricanes and OHKO with +1 Ice Punch, and if you've set up rain for Hurricane or your own rain sweeper, Swampert OHKOs with Waterfall. Again, don't want to imply Torn is anything but dangerously underrated, but there's more answers than you're implying.
 
B to B-

I think you already know my reason for making this nomination.

Celebi.

Celebi is literally Shaymin but with a better movepool. Celebi can be a bitch with Thunder Wave, Shaymin can't. Celebi can pass stat boosts, Shaymin can't. (Shaymin doesn't even have any good setup moves) I think you get the idea. There are a few things that Shaymin can do that Celebi can't, but most of those things are still better done by other Pokemon. (Example: Tailwind is done better by Tornadus (which btw I agree on that going to A-) Celebi now being in the tier has seriously gave Shaymin a lot of competition, which is why I think B- is better suited for the Flower Hedgehog Thing.
 
Specs seed flare is the only advantage Shaymin has over Celebi. That and a non-dark weak mon. Otherwise, agreed in full. Drop the hedgehog.
 
Didn't want to post again today but mfw people underestimate shaymin

252+ SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 415-489 (58.1 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 248 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 161-190 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 134-158 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress: 202-238 (57 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 240 HP / 216+ SpD Mandibuzz: 206-243 (48.9 - 57.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 240 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 255-300 (60.5 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 147-173 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- 52.3% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 195-231 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 155-183 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangrowth: 210-248 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 169-200 (44.4 - 52.6%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Mega Aggron: 123-146 (35.7 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 174-205 (51.4 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 253-298 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 268-316 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Note that all modest calcs sans mandi and mence are workable on timid with any 2 layers of entry hazards up (there is a lukemin empire variant for this reason) and that this is not taking into account coverage "predictions", cleanly blowing through blissy neutrally 36% of the time (or forcing it into no more counter wow range) while carrying healing wish is not even a little bit B-.

I've recently become fond of an oddball leach seed/psychic/flare/tailwind or HW variant @ meadow plate modest on tspikes offense, its good I swear, there is a lot of untapped technology in shaymin.

Other notes:

Shaymin is more comparable to Entie and specs Sylv than it is to it's grass type contemporaries, a choice user with high utility and a 100% spamable stab that can run higher utility alternate sets.

UU has fierce 7 way grass type war but none of them directly compete for the same niche, lets respect that and not begin a frenzy of "omg celebi is in UU lower rank of x grass type" shaymin was just lowered to B rank to reflect the increased competition from celebi (I personaly disagree with this but that's for another time) lets not drop it down with the likes of aromatisse and cloyster.

Edit: @ Bays, I can agree with... most of that statement. When I say "Tornadus-I has no counters" I do not mean you cannot control it via redundant soft and hard checks. I mean that in the traditional sense it has no real counters, aka a mon that can swap in as many times as needed to one or all sets of a pokemon over the course of a game under neutral or disadvantageous conditions. I will however disagree with your statement that killing Tornadus-I as it sacks itself to set TW/RD is even a little bit a check or counter, that is torn straight up winning the game, or bringing a bad game back to a neutral situation. Either way it's optimal speed control turns. I also feel that GK on Torn just encourages bad play so the 4mss could be considerably less of an issue than you may believe.
 
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KM

slayification
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sorry dodmen but imo sylveon needs to go to A+/S rank. it's literally defining the tier right now but even if we go into more traditional arguments...

Sylveon is the same rank as Florges. Florges is outclassed by Sylveon when not using the CM + Synthesis set, but the CM + Synthesis set is infinitely less impactful than Sylveon's offensive sets.

I've played around with sylveon a LOT the last week or so, and it has a lot of untapped potential in terms of team building and options. Because sylveon is a highly centralizing mon that teams have to bring checks for, you can readily expect to see the same checks 99% of the time. Almost every high-ladder balance / offense team I've seen is running some combination of Entei / Nidoqueen / M-Agg / Empoleon / Metagross / Arcanine / Rotom-Heat as a desperate attempt to stop offensive Sylveon from literally just clicking HV and killing shit. However, due to the high predictability of these checks, there's a lot of options to easily take advantage of these pokemon and ensure pressure. This is only compounded by Sylveon's access to baton pass, which allows it to do shit like BP into dugtrio and eliminate most of those checks/counters or even just BP into a highly threatening mon (i've been using NP Azelf / Gyara recently to great success) that threatens those checks.

Another great option for Sylveon is to run Scarf Sylveon in conjunction with NP-Pass Celebi. When you're outspeeding everything below 113+ Spe, there's very little that can take it, and even littler that can take it and kill you and return. On top of being a huge nuke with momentum in b pass, Sylveon also has huge bulk and can take many of the hits from the things that can "deal" with it.

This bulk makes it a very different type of nuke than a darmanitan / entei / mienshao / victini. Because Fairy-type hits everything, its "counters" are things that have to switch in, have a move to kill it, and actually click that move. That is very far removed from other nukes, whose counters are immune to their main STABs and therefore, once they successfully switch in, are free to click literally any move they want. The pressure difference is immense - let's take Entei as an example. Entei is 2HKOd by Sylveon's Hyper Voice after Rocks, so it can switch in and threaten to OHKO with sacred fire. However, sacred fire is not a 0-risk nuke like Hyper Voice. If the Sylveon user is running something like Chandelure or Doom or Arcanine, the entei is then forced to make a prediction. If it makes the wrong choice, it either risks losing the momentum and giving a flash fire boost or losing the entei and doing ~50% damage with Stone Edge or ESpeed.

To be clear, the purpose of these hypotheticals isn't to create some ridiculous team-dependent scenario where Sylveon beats everything. I'm just trying to show that, unlike other nukes, Sylveon's counters are not hard counters even if they predict correctly, and they must also continue to predict correctly once they switch in in order for their countering to be successful. This distinction is huge and should not be taken lightly, and combined with the fact that Sylveon has tremendous momentum in the form of Baton Pass and that its counters are generally mid-speed pokemon that are easily taken advantage of by other offensive threats, Sylveon is a huge, metagame-defining threat that should be placed to represent its impact.

also Mamoswine to S Rank

unless you completely fuck up mamoswine is just ridiculously good. it's a SR setter with insane offensive presence and its offensive and defensive typing allows it to stay relevant throughout the match by blocking volt switches and also preventing S-tier threats like Salamence from setting up due to Ice Shard. it also threatens S-tier threat Tornadus ;)

on the real tho this thing is restrictive in team building and wrecks shit independently of any other mon and yeah
 

Sacri'

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I'm gonna have to disagree with both of these nominations.

Saying Sylveon is a centralizing pokemon for balance/offense is really inaccurate. The mons you listed are indeed common in these kind of teams but most teams have to run fairy checks, even without sylveon being in the tier. And there are many other reasons to use these mons, if Sylveon was actually centralizing we would use pokemons that were considered as gimmicks before its drop but thats not the case. And you also seem to forget Sylveons main flaw: the speed. Its speed being that low means it can be checked offensively. Basically, Sylveons speed is a huge let-down because it's forced to take hits in order to dish them which wouldn't be a problem if not for the lack of physical bulk. Also, you have to run scarf in order to simply outpace and keep pace with relatively common threats which forces you to either run nasty pass or hit substantially weaker. The former leaves you vulnerable to phazing, which makes breaking things like Suicune and Pert harder to break, the latter just neuters why you'd run sylveon in the first place. Getting hits with Sylveon isnt as easy as you make it out to be and that is why Sylveon should stay A rank.

Mamoswine is a different case because its a bit faster and has a good priority move. Still, offensive checks to Mamoswine are really common, there are like 5 popular fighting types that doesnt lose to Ice Shard and outspeed. Also, there are many things like Hydreigon or Celebi that are weak to Ice shard but are able to take the hit decently and OHKO back. Bulky waters are still extremely common and most of them beat Mamoswine 1v1, not talking about the fact that UU has recently gained a really solid Mamoswine check being Gyarados, that is also really easy to slap on teams. Theres also the fact that Mamoswine has pretty bad defensive utility, Volt switch immunity doesnt even help that much considering common electric types have usually something to beat Mamo. Offensivly, Mamoswine is indeed one of the very best but I dont think you can compare it to something like Hydreigon that also have excellent defensive utilities. For these reasons, I don't see Mamoswine going anywhere higher than A+ rank.

shoutout to Mazz for helping with the writing
 
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Kitten Milk I also want to clarify that Florges and Sylveon share the same rank not because they do the same things equally as well, but for separate reasons. Florges is a much better wincon than Sylveon thanks to Synthesis, which makes the CM set a legitimate threat, whereas Sylveon is a more immediately threatening wallbreaker. Both are okay clerics, which is the only thing the two really share in common. Both have merit as clerics - Florges is a tad bulkier (SpDef), faster, and isn't reliant on Wish to heal itself while Sylveon gets Baton Pass to directly pass Wishes.

A real lazy comparison to make more sense of why Sylveon and Florges - two similar Pokemon on paper - are identically ranked would be the pair of Nidoqueen and Nidoking in early XY: both shared a rank at one point because each had specific merits that granted them the same rank. Nidoqueen was better defensively and Nidoking could bypass SpDef walls with Superpower while being faster. Both had similar damage outputs, but had differing roles. In the case of Sylveon vs Florges, the opposite is true: both have different (situational) damage outputs but can achieve similar roles.

Mega Ampharos from B to B-
I agree that Mega-Ampharos should drop as well (not sure how relevant this discussion is anymore) on the simple notion that it consumes your Mega slot while providing no additional benefit that something like Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Sceptile, Mega Swampert, or any other viable Mega in UU would provide. It's only real niche is having Volt Switch and some bulk which restricts the type of team it tends to fit well on to VoltTurn. Nothing about Mega Ampharos assists balance / offence / bulky / stall teams more than a Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Aggron, etc would. It's an inferior mega to what currently exists. The prevalence of Hydreigon, Salamence, Sylveon, and Mamoswine should be enough to even further limit any usage Mega Ampharos attains: the metagame doesn't support its usage right now, even with the loss of Zapdos. Celebi is pretty good deterrent too, since Earth Power will eventually wear Mega Ampharos down thanks to any lack of viable recovery.

Claiming that Sylveon being the "premier Fairy-type" makes Mega Ampharos' job as a sweeper easier than it was when Florges was king shit is simply talking out of your ass. It's a ridiculous claim that you don't back up outside of "Sylveon takes more from Thunderbolt". A proper offensive Sylveon is outspeeding Mega Ampharos regardless. A defensive Sylveon isn't even guaranteed to be 2HKOed after SR. Sylveon's most common partner, CB Krookodile, if anything makes prediction harder. Both of your STABs have a respective immunity and now you're locked into a mental chess game with your opponent. In short, there's no room for Mega Ampharos as a viable mega right now - too many better options exist thanks to the state of the metagame. B- is a perfect fit for one of the shoddier megas available in UU right now. Why it's ranked above Heliolisk, both Porygons, Dragalge, or Tyrantrum is beyond me. At the very least drop it to the bottom of B (which, the entire rank itself could use some cleaning up).
 

Kink

it's a thug life ¨̮
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also Mamoswine to S Rank

unless you completely fuck up mamoswine is just ridiculously good. it's a SR setter with insane offensive presence and its offensive and defensive typing allows it to stay relevant throughout the match by blocking volt switches and also preventing S-tier threats like Salamence from setting up due to Ice Shard. it also threatens S-tier threat Tornadus ;)

on the real tho this thing is restrictive in team building and wrecks shit independently of any other mon and yeah
Mamoswine is not nearly on the same level as the other S ranks due to its limitation of only being used on offense teams. Look at the other S Rank mons as an example: Hydreigon and Mence have multiple effective sets that can get any mon you need out of the way while checking some things in the process. Mamoswine is a one-trick pony, two if you feel like using it for Sash Rocks which is kinda mediocre these days, albeit usable. A+ is a perfect rank for the mammoth.
 

Thisbemyalt

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is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Kitten Milk I also want to clarify that Florges and Sylveon share the same rank not because they do the same things equally as well, but for separate reasons. Florges is a much better wincon than Sylveon thanks to Synthesis, which makes the CM set a legitimate threat, whereas Sylveon is a more immediately threatening wallbreaker. Both are okay clerics, which is the only thing the two really share in common. Both have merit as clerics - Florges is a tad bulkier (SpDef), faster, and isn't reliant on Wish to heal itself while Sylveon gets Baton Pass to directly pass Wishes.

A real lazy comparison to make more sense of why Sylveon and Florges - two similar Pokemon on paper - are identically ranked would be the pair of Nidoqueen and Nidoking in early XY: both shared a rank at one point because each had specific merits that granted them the same rank. Nidoqueen was better defensively and Nidoking could bypass SpDef walls with Superpower while being faster. Both had similar damage outputs, but had differing roles. In the case of Sylveon vs Florges, the opposite is true: both have different (situational) damage outputs but can achieve similar roles.
The main issue I take with this statement is that when comparing these two it really comes down to CM florges vs specs sylveon, considering they both run fine cleric sets. With your nidos example the utility they brought to teams was deemed to be equal, however cm florges is nowhere near as strong as specs sylveon. I mean sure florges is a wincon but it isn't great in this meta especially when you realize every team is currently running 1-2 fairy checks because of how threatening sylveon is. Honestly regardless of what you think sylveon should be ranked I don't think anyone could make the case that sylveon and florges are at all equals in this meta, either drop florges or raise sylveon imo.
 
The classic definition of S rank used in other threads has made the qualification that even if a Pokemon only has one viable set if the set is simply that powerful it can still be in S. Not sure what dodman did with that set of definitions, and I don't agree with Mamoswine rising to S, but being a one-trick pony doesn't mean a Pokemon doesn't define or break a tier. Ask Deoxys-Defense.
 

esche

Frust kommt auf, denn der Bus kommt nicht
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Mazz, I would really appreciate if you quoted me correctly instead of simply misstating my point. I never even mentioned offensive Sylveon, I was refering to the Wish Pass/Cleric set, which I thought I made very clear...
Lord Esche said:
the more favorable Fairy type Wish Passer/Cleric
Lord Esche said:
Sylveon as the premier Fairy type Wish Passer/Cleric
Sure, any decent offensive Sylveon will outspeed M-Ampharos regardless. However, this was not my point. My point with M-Ampharos regarding Sylveon was that the replacement of Florges as Wish Passer/Cleric helps it performing the role of a slow but powerful pivot more reliably. It is NOT a sweeper and I never claimed it would be.
Mazz said:
A defensive Sylveon isn't even guaranteed to be 2HKOed after SR.
How is this not an improvement for Mega Ampharos? When Florges was around as the (only) Fairy type Wish Passer/Cleric, M-Ampharos couldn't even have dreamed of a 2HKO, since Florges outspeeds and is more specially bulky. With Sylveon around however, you will be able to deal a good chunk of damage with Thunderbolt on the switch-in and Volt Switch right out of there on the following turn, since you outspeed the defensive variant. Don't see Leftovers on Sylveon? Don't stay in to Volt Switch. It's that easy.

Like I said before, Mega Ampharos is not self-sufficient, it needs proper team support to function. M-Ampharos is a team player, it should be used on Bulky Offense and Balance builds, that can truly appreciate its ability to pressure opposing bulky cores, and its decent defensive capability that can relieve some pressure from team members versus offensive cores. Yes, M-Ampharos doesn't dislike a partner to form a VoltTurn core with, but it is not solely restricted to this kind of build.
Mazz said:
Sylveon's most common partner, CB Krookodile, if anything makes prediction harder.
Let me get this straight: You want Mega-Ampharos to drop because a single core that is common on offense right now makes it "harder" to predict with it? I can't get behind this. You are simply neglecting the fact that Mega Ampharos' presence doesn't only force its user to predict, but also the opponent. Go ahead, send in your CB Krookodile on Mega Ampharos and watch it take 80% from Dragon Pulse or get straight up OHKO'd by Focus Blast. I don't think an offensive Sylveon likes taking repeated damage from Thunderbolt and being Volt Switch'ed on, either. Hold up, you managed to predict correctly around Mega Ampharos? Congratulations! You didn't? Oh well, then you probably just lost one of your wallbreakers or a good amount of momentum. This "mental chess game" can bite you in the back just as much as your opponent; the Sylveon + Krookodile user does not have the advantage in this scenario. Like I stated above, Mega Ampharos doesn't exactly shine versus offense, because you are more pressured to predict correctly with it, but versus bulkier builds it has a lot more room to work with and you can even afford to make a wrong prediction at times.

Now hear me out, I don't want to promote Mega-Ampharos to A rank or anything, I know about its flaws and how the metagame is not particulary friendly to it right now. But that is exactly why it is sitting in B and not higher up. I don't see how M-Ampharos is a "shoddy" choice for your mega slot and has to drop when it fills a unique niche, that is somewhat underrated in the current metagame and hasn't changed much from previous states of the metagame in terms of viability.

Keep M-Ampharos in B.

Also, I'm pretty sure only the S to B+ rank mons are ranked within their rank by viability...​
 

dingbat

snek
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I definitely agree with jjosh's Tornadus nomination; I personally ran your mentioned set on one of my teams with heat wave + tailwind, and it has done a fantastic job of punching holes through a majority of teams. Regarding Lord of Bays' post, I have to respectfully disagree with the 4mss assessment. I have personally run Grass Knot on Tornadus before, and although it is definitely nice for securing ohkos on Pert and damaging Cune, Blastoise more reliably, but speaking objectively and practically, it is definitely not necessary for Tornadus to successfully wallbreak the shit it needs to. I definitely understand the feeling of missing hurricanes because it could sometimes be the x-factor between me winning and me losing a battle, but whenever Hurricane lands, it lands on em pretty damn hard. For a wallbreaker with an impressive base 111 speed and some last ditch methods to benefit the rest of the team, Tornadus is definitely A- worthy.

I agree that Celebi can do a ton of things that Shaymin can't do, but I think the Choice Specs set still makes Shaymin B rank worthy. I feel that lots of players nowadays have left Shaymin off the radar, but I feel this has only really made Shaymin more of a "dark horse" threat. I've been watching quite a few higher ladder games (ladder, yeah yeah) featuring Specs Shaymin, and it's clear that Shaymin can still cause similar, if not the same, amounts of destruction with the threat of a specs Seed Flare, as it has been before Celebi rejoined UU.

Finally, I think Sylveon could go to A+ rank. It's kinda safe to say at this point that Sylveon has become a metagame defining force, as its specs set has become something that every team needs to be regularly prepared for.
 
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The main issue I take with this statement is that when comparing these two it really comes down to CM florges vs specs sylveon, considering they both run fine cleric sets. With your nidos example the utility they brought to teams was deemed to be equal, however cm florges is nowhere near as strong as specs sylveon. I mean sure florges is a wincon but it isn't great in this meta especially when you realize every team is currently running 1-2 fairy checks because of how threatening sylveon is. Honestly regardless of what you think sylveon should be ranked I don't think anyone could make the case that sylveon and florges are at all equals in this meta, either drop florges or raise sylveon imo.
Arguing that CM Florges isn't effective as a wincon is essentially saying the same thing regarding Suicune, considering most teams have 1-2 Water-type checks too. Or that CM Reuniclus isn't a great wincon either because Dark-types are relatively common. The goal with these wincons is to clean house once those checks are gone. Florges just has the added benefit of being a cleric at the same time. Expecting any of them to be effective when said 1-2 checks are still active is ridiculous. To say that CM Florges bad in this meta is silly. Quit letting Omfuga teach you how to play mons smh. It's not really about Florges' strength if I'm honest, since an uninvested Florges requires 3 boosts to be stronger than Specs Sylveon (granted 3 boosts aren't easy to acquire but it is very possible in a late-game scenario). The two play completely differently, but equally well. The case I brought up in regards to Nidoking vs Nidoqueen wasn't that the utility they brought was equal, but that they performed as well as the other one. They were, in a sense, equals in terms of viability.

Having a narrow viewpoint, in this case focusing on two very similar Pokemon and how they compare against one and other, as opposed to comparing Florges and Slyveon against the metagame (thus establishing and ranking their viability in said metagame) is silly. Yes, Sylveon has the more dynamic offensive set, yes they're both fine clerics, yes Florges is the better wincon. They have obvious differences and when viewed separately Sylveon will appear the better option nine times out of ten. Against the entire metagame however, both are equally viable and their usage is simply based around what you need them to do. - it's rather silly of me to say one is better than the other. They play differently, occupy different roles. Saying we must raise / drop one simply because the other exists is absurd.

Consider it this way: Cresselia and Heracross both occupy A-rank. One is a potent wallbreaker and the other is a more defensive Pokemon that can function as a wincon. Yes one may have an offensive edge over the other despite the hostilities both face in today's metagame, but they're both equally viable. When I compare these two the way we compare Florges and Slyveon - which only happens because they share modestly similar stats and have identical typing.

Mazz, I would really appreciate if you quoted me correctly instead of simply misstating my point. I never even mentioned offensive Sylveon, I was refering to the Wish Pass/Cleric set, which I thought I made very clear...

Sure, any decent offensive Sylveon will outspeed M-Ampharos regardless. However, this was not my point. My point with M-Ampharos regarding Sylveon was that the replacement of Florges as Wish Passer/Cleric helps it performing the role of a slow but powerful pivot more reliably. It is NOT a sweeper and I never claimed it would be.

How is this not an improvement for Mega Ampharos? When Florges was around as the (only) Fairy type Wish Passer/Cleric, M-Ampharos couldn't even have dreamed of a 2HKO, since Florges outspeeds and is more specially bulky. With Sylveon around however, you will be able to deal a good chunk of damage with Thunderbolt on the switch-in and Volt Switch right out of there on the following turn, since you outspeed the defensive variant. Don't see Leftovers on Sylveon? Don't stay in to Volt Switch. It's that easy.

Like I said before, Mega Ampharos is not self-sufficient, it needs proper team support to function. M-Ampharos is a team player, it should be used on Bulky Offense and Balance builds, that can truly appreciate its ability to pressure opposing bulky cores, and its decent defensive capability that can relieve some pressure from team members versus offensive cores. Yes, M-Ampharos doesn't dislike a partner to form a VoltTurn core with, but it is not solely restricted to this kind of build.


Let me get this straight: You want Mega-Ampharos to drop because a single core that is common on offense right now makes it "harder" to predict with it? I can't get behind this. You are simply neglecting the fact that Mega Ampharos' presence doesn't only force its user to predict, but also the opponent. Go ahead, send in your CB Krookodile on Mega Ampharos and watch it take 80% from Dragon Pulse or get straight up OHKO'd by Focus Blast. I don't think an offensive Sylveon likes taking repeated damage from Thunderbolt and being Volt Switch'ed on, either. Hold up, you managed to predict correctly around Mega Ampharos? Congratulations! You didn't? Oh well, then you probably just lost one of your wallbreakers or a good amount of momentum. This "mental chess game" can bite you in the back just as much as your opponent; the Sylveon + Krookodile user does not have the advantage in this scenario. Like I stated above, Mega Ampharos doesn't exactly shine versus offense, because you are more pressured to predict correctly with it, but versus bulkier builds it has a lot more room to work with and you can even afford to make a wrong prediction at times.

Now hear me out, I don't want to promote Mega-Ampharos to A rank or anything, I know about its flaws and how the metagame is not particulary friendly to it right now. But that is exactly why it is sitting in B and not higher up. I don't see how M-Ampharos is a "shoddy" choice for your mega slot and has to drop when it fills a unique niche, that is somewhat underrated in the current metagame and hasn't changed much from previous states of the metagame in terms of viability.

Keep M-Ampharos in B.
I quoted you this time even though I don't particularly like clicking the quote button. I don't think I've misstated your point, rather you didn't expect opposition to it since it was seemingly swept under the rug. All I'm doing is taking a "big picture" approach than simply seeing how Mega Ampharos fares against a single Pokemon.

First off, I'm rather certain that the cleric set is nothing shy of middling on Sylveon, and that typically offensive sets should be favoured. Florges's access to Synthesis makes it better suited for a defensive role, as the first-turn recovery aids its staying power. However, in the event that one finds themselves with a cleric Sylveon matched against Mega Ampharos, they will still win. Slyveon's cleric set runs Protect. Even if you get a max roll off on Sylveon with Thunderbolt (and therefore end up taking a Hyper Voice to the neck), it can still stall you out for a turn, take additional Leftovers recovery, and then it's outside of your KO range (barring status, previous damage, or a critical hit). In this case, your best play is to Volt-Switch out. Ampharos cannot reliably stay in on Slyveon. How that translates into beating Sylveon beats me. If anything, it cements that Sylveon is no more a boon to Mega Ampharos' usage than Florges was. In fact with Sylveon being stronger, its more of a burden than anything.

If you don't see Leftovers on Sylveon, you're getting outsped. Unless your opponent suffered an aneurysm while building their team and opted for a max HP / max SpA spread. In that case, you're either forced out or sacrificing Mega Ampharos. I still don't see how Mamphy comes out on top here.

Your original post on Mega Ampharos, while not specifically stating it, hints that even with Sylveon's presence the metagame hasn't hindered Mega Ampharos enough to deny dropping it. The common core of Sylveon and Krookodile was merely an example of a case where the exact opposite is true (while also making your statement of simply Volt Switching out of Sylveon less viable). If you want to deconstruct my argument to simply "Player A can outpredict Player B", then you missed the point completely. Nothing about today's metagame has changed for the betterment of Mega Ampharos - things have only gotten worse for it with the addition of Sylveon (and Celebi if I'm nickel-and-diming here). Fun fact, but Hydreigon still exists. Mamoswine, Salamence, Celebi, there's too many prevalent Pokemon standing in Mega Ampharos' way to be good. You have a moot point.

Like I stated above, Mega Ampharos doesn't exactly shine versus offense, because you are more pressured to predict correctly with it, but versus bulkier builds it has a lot more room to work with and you can even afford to make a wrong prediction at times.
This part made me chuckle simply because the current state of the metagame has favoured offence as opposed to balance. Banning Alakazam was supposed to help this, and it's definitely a step in the right direction, but offence is still a very prominent playstyle in Underused. If you mean to tell me that the Pokemon you believe shouldn't drop is also dead weight versus offensive teams, then what are you trying to defend? If it's garbage against the most common playstyle, then what's the point?

I don't see how M-Ampharos is a "shoddy" choice for your mega slot and has to drop when it fills a unique niche, that is somewhat underrated in the current metagame and hasn't changed much from previous states of the metagame in terms of viability.
Mega Camerupt also had a specific niche, and it was recently unranked from the VR, and with good reason. If you consider Mega Ampharos in a vacuum, then sure it's a neat Pokemon. Has some flaws, but it's a pivot with some bulk. Once compared against the metagame however, that appeal wears off and you're left wanting. Mega Ampharos has the same flaw that Mega Camerupt did, and it does in fact waste your mega slot. Every mega evolution ranked above it (deservedly so) outperforms what Mega Ampharos brings to the table, with the added benefit of not struggling versus offence.

Heliolisk, Porygon-Z, Tyrantrum, and Dragalge all function quite well on varying forms of offence. Porygon2 is still one of the best defensive Pokemon in the metagame (just too many key things set up on it). For the most part, these five Pokemon handle the current state of the metagame well enough to justify staying in B-rank. Mega Ampharos does not.

EDIT: also Lord of Bays Deoxys-D was unparalleled in terms of what it's capable of. In every metagame it's touched (maybe outside of ORAS Ubers). Yes, it's a one-trick pony but again, unparalleled at that specific trick. S-Rank would be justified in its case since no other Pokemon fills that role as prominently. Such is not the case with Mamoswine. It's great offensively, but so are a lot of things in UU.
 

KM

slayification
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sorry quoting is difficult but

I don't really follow the logic of insisting that CM Florges as wincon is exactly as deadly / impactful as offensive Sylveon, just in different ways. That seems to me like a baseless claim, especially given that CM Florges is notably not the premier wincon in the tier (as Suicune and Reuniclus are both ranked higher with good reason) and Sylveon is absolutely the premier special nuke in the tier (Hydra is a great mon, but as a special nuke it definitely falls flat compared to sylveon due to having actual counters). Given that we both agree their cleric sets are relatively equally poor and not really the reason for their ranking, it seems quite logical to then rank Sylveon over Florges.

I also think it's a little facetious to say that we'd be running the same checks with the same frequency if it were just CM Florges. People are regularly running shit like AV Entei and AV Metagross and Full SpD Empoleon that they just simply weren't doing pre-Sylveon. More importantly, when you're team building (or at least when I am), I'm not like "oh I need to cover CM Florges....hey look I happened to cover Sylveon as well!", it's the exact opposite. That's because there are plenty of mons that check CM Florges that absolutely can not switch into Sylveon (non-fullSPD Forry, Cobalion, IT Lucario....) and many of their shared counters can only switch into Sylveon once but can switch into Florges many times.
 
sorry quoting is difficult but

I don't really follow the logic of insisting that CM Florges as wincon is exactly as deadly / impactful as offensive Sylveon, just in different ways. That seems to me like a baseless claim, especially given that CM Florges is notably not the premier wincon in the tier (as Suicune and Reuniclus are both ranked higher with good reason) and Sylveon is absolutely the premier special nuke in the tier (Hydra is a great mon, but as a special nuke it definitely falls flat compared to sylveon due to having actual counters). Given that we both agree their cleric sets are relatively equally poor and not really the reason for their ranking, it seems quite logical to then rank Sylveon over Florges.

I also think it's a little facetious to say that we'd be running the same checks with the same frequency if it were just CM Florges. People are regularly running shit like AV Entei and AV Metagross and Full SpD Empoleon that they just simply weren't doing pre-Sylveon. More importantly, when you're team building (or at least when I am), I'm not like "oh I need to cover CM Florges....hey look I happened to cover Sylveon as well!", it's the exact opposite. That's because there are plenty of mons that check CM Florges that absolutely can not switch into Sylveon (non-fullSPD Forry, Cobalion, IT Lucario....) and many of their shared counters can only switch into Sylveon once but can switch into Florges many times.
Ok time for raw blasphemy, Sylv is just another specs user one that notably lacks utility outside of baton pass, is restricted to a whopping base 60 speed tier with underwhelming neutral bulk, and has hilariously weak coverage, the overhype here is real, sylv has had a metagame impact but it's very limited.

Random vests are what people who do not understand how2mons slap onto teams. There has been a noticeable but not overwhelming upswing in sylv's actual counters on stall/semi/defensive balance in the form of spdefmlix/megron/arcanine/Bliss/Rade/Fatqueen/etc but these mon's were good beforehand and saw a reasonable amount of use. Sylv is never breaking bliss on it's own unless it's like... banded double edge and the pursuit wow core functions similarly with most of the tier's other top tier specs/LO AOA users.

On offense you only need to swap into sylv 0-1 times and can flat out ignore the little shitter with strong neutral hits and mediocre bulk alongside weak resists, offense can pull this off because.... 5-6 mon's on the team team are faster than a base 60 and can either OHKO or 2hit KO the little shit while living any hit. Seriously outside of TW/TR sylv is just a speedbump for HO it's that easy to supress. It does make hydrie slightly worse offensively on this archetype and limits DD gyara but you run those on HO for the defensive utility they provide not for their overwhelming offensive presence.

A rank is already overselling it.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 216-255 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 225-265 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 208-246 (29.1 - 34.4%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (superpower)
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 189-223 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- 15.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 300-355 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 175-208 (24.5 - 29.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (Superpower)
252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 153-183 (21.4 - 25.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (Stab CC)
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 153-183 (21.4 - 25.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (muh hazards)
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 153-181 (21.4 - 25.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (superpower)

Sylv is pretty pwrful but not incomparably so while on the other hand... all of these are either not choice locked, have a much better neutral bulk/resist game, have more utility, or have a stronger matchup against dedicated stall cores, and none of them are in the pitiful hell of base 60 speed.

Sylvs unique niche as a truely offensive fairy is legit, is strong, and is worthy of A-/A rank. But most of it's perceived potency comes from... ladder adjusting to new threats at the pace of a paraplegic tortoise.
 
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