Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

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I don't really like that article. This is a general thread and not a specific thread about bans and such, but I feel very much that the article misconstrues the pro-ban argument. I've seen people argue far better for the ban, and don't want an official-looking reason as convoluted as this one to represent them.

Specifically, you list things such as the "needed to keep ghost viable" as no-ban arguments in the first suspect, and "needed to make ice/poison/electric viable" in the pro-ban arguments. As written, this kind of makes the references to the "changed tiering policy" look like a lie, since in effect, you are still using an appeal to the old tiering philosophy (eg: getting low usage types higher numbers)

Also the analysis of dark and ghost's teamate options seem tangential to the actual ban itself. The praise for umbreon seems to ignore the rubbery nature of toxic ampharos, lava plume heatran, etc. If they, like frost breath specs walrein, are so gimmicky that their only presence on the team was to specifically counter megasableye, wouldn't it be more prudent and obvious for the dark user to recognize them as the sole threat to their wincon and switch out (without losing momentum because tyranitar comes on many of them for free, and their gimmick largely ONLY extends to sableye) as the superior play to including a gimmicky team member of their own, such as umbreon.

I wouldn't argue that sableye is s good because the few things that can status it are easy to fix with the available team support but instead because the opponet's intention to status him is incredibly obvious even from team preview, and can be exploited throughout the game by taking hold of the offensive pressure when they struggle to get these (often sub-optimal) mons into play.

Also general hyperbole about sableye's defensive prowess without calcs to show that their are a few more pokemon than lum nite and azu that can hurt it through burn.(not to mention wisp isn't 100 accurate when used against the MANY pokemon with 3HKO potential) thoughts on why a simple sub dance antimeta on the likes of terrakion and zygarde to actively benefit from sableye's popularity didn't develop, and so on.

I do personally feel that it's worth looking at the usage stats of pokemon that carry taunt over 10% of the time, namely, mega gyarados, infernape, mew, mandibuzz, crobat, gengar, Thundy-I and gliscor. I would argue that the lack of taunt on other types and the unceirtain usage of it on top tier flying/water/psychic teams would indicate that megasable like "endgame sweepers " might continue to exist in the form of say, acid armor manaphy, curselax, and some reflect type latias variants.
 
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I don't really like that article. This is a general thread and not a specific thread about bans and such, but I feel very much that the article misconstrues the pro-ban argument. I've seen people argue far better for the ban, and don't want an official-looking reason as convoluted as this one to represent them.

Specifically, you list things such as the "needed to keep ghost viable" as no-ban arguments in the first suspect, and "needed to make ice/poison/electric viable" in the pro-ban arguments. As written, this kind of makes the references to the "changed tiering policy" look like a lie, since in effect, you are still using an appeal to the old tiering philosophy (eg: getting low usage types higher numbers)

Also the analysis of dark and ghost's teamate options seem tangential to the actual ban itself. The praise for umbreon seems to ignore the rubbery nature of toxic ampharos, lava plume heatran, etc. If they, like frost breath specs walrein, are so gimmicky that their only presence on the team was to specifically counter megasableye, wouldn't it be more prudent and obvious for the dark user to recognize them as the sole threat to their wincon and switch out (without losing momentum because tyranitar comes on many of them for free, and their gimmick largely ONLY extends to sableye) as the superior play to including a gimmicky team member of their own, such as umbreon.

I wouldn't argue that sableye is s good because the few things that can status it are easy to fix with the available team support but instead because the opponet's intention to status him is incredibly obvious even from team preview, and can be exploited throughout the game by taking hold of the offensive pressure when they struggle to get these (often sub-optimal) mons into play.

Also general hyperbole about sableye's defensive prowess without calcs to show that their are a few more pokemon than lum nite and azu that can hurt it through burn.(not to mention wisp isn't 100 accurate when used against the MANY pokemon with 3HKO potential) thoughts on why a simple sub dance antimeta on the likes of terrakion and zygarde to actively benefit from sableye's popularity didn't develop, and so on.

I do personally feel that it's worth looking at the usage stats of pokemon that carry taunt over 10% of the time, namely, mega gyarados, infernape, mew, mandibuzz, crobat, gengar, Thundy-I and gliscor. I would argue that the lack of taunt on other types and the unceirtain usage of it on top tier flying/water/psychic teams would indicate that megasable like "endgame sweepers " might continue to exist in the form of say, acid armor manaphy, curselax, and some reflect type latias variants.
Hi, thanks for your feedback! I'll address all of your points one by one in order to give each of them an adequate response.

First, yes, I think we can all agree that needing to keep Ghost viable is against the tiering philosophy, which is why it was an invalid argument that should have had no place in the voting, leading to the second suspect. On the other hand, the article doesn't actually say that the ban argument revolves around making Ice / Poison / Electric viable. This is reflected in the Sablenite suspect thread, in which no one who supported the ban actually gave such a sentiment. In the arguments, it is clearly stated that the issue with Mega Sableye is its centralization, in which a supermajority of types build around its presence. Within that, we note the overly specific checks that are used in such types as Ice / Poison / Electric, but we do not put any preference towards improving those types in particular. Taking a look at the explanation for these examples, it is clear that the ban argument uses these examples to show the difference between checking Mega Sableye and checking the likes of Mega Gyarados, to show that there is a distinctly uncompetitive element to Mega Sableye. So I would agree with you that specifically looking to make certain types viable is against the tiering philosophy, and the ban argument certainly does not try to do so.

I would say that Umbreon isn't particularly gimmicky, as Umbreon does have a necessary spot on any form of defensive / stall Dark team, thanks to its Wish passing and Heal Bell support options. But regardless of that, your point is exactly what we're trying to get at. Mega Sableye has teammates, so even if an opponent uses a Pokemon with an overly specific answer to Mega Sableye, the Dark user can simply switch out. The article does make direct reference to this. The team options for Mega Sableye only exacerbate the issue, and I think we can both agree to that.

I don't see your point when you say Mega Sableye's strength is that it is obvious when the opponent wants to status it. The fact that Mega Sableye is so hard to status is partly because it's so obvious that the opponent wants it to be statused. That's why these overly specific checks are problematic and a sign of the fundamentally uncompetitive nature of Mega Sableye.

On the matter of Mega Sableye's defenses being able to be broken, certainly that would be true, but the no ban side in the Sablenite suspect thread never brought that up, so it would be rather wrong for the article to pretend that they did. By the way, why did you bring up Will-O-Wisp's accuracy, when 85% is quite reliable and statistically good? If you watch some high level play or tournament matches (including the finals of the OMGS!), Substitute + Swords Dance Terrakion is in fact a set that one of the best Fighting teams uses. Some Ground users do also use Zygarde, either with Substitute or Lum Berry, so it is slightly unclear why you wanted the article to talk about why these two sets did not develop, when it is evident and clear that, in high level play, they did. As to why the article didn't directly bring them up, the ban argument didn't use those specific examples in the Sablenite thread and either way the argument had a large number of examples already. This is compounded with the fact that Fighting has great answers in Heracross and Keldeo while Ground has Landorus and Mega Camerupt.

Your final concern is rather curious as well. As you know, Magic Bounce can reflect more than just Taunt. It also reflects status moves, such as Will-O-Wisp and Toxic; phazing moves, such as Whirlwind and Roar; and other utility moves, most notably including Trick and Encore. This is why Mega Sableye's ability to sweep thanks to Magic Bounce is so pronounced and far beyond most other sweepers, many of which rely on using either Substitute or Taunt to be safe. Reviewing the usage stats again for all of these types of moves, they are actually quite common on pretty much all types. That's why they are problematic for most sweepers but not for Mega Sableye. This is why Mega Sableye stands above many other sweepers. On a very brief side note, both Acid Armor Manaphy and Curse Snorlax have much bigger problems than just opposing status, phazing, and utility moves.

By the way, you claimed that this article uses convoluted arguments to represent and misconstrue the ban argument and that you've seen people argue for it much better than the article did. It would be a great help if you could give us an idea of what you mean and which arguments you thought were well-made and should have been represented. The article was written with the Sablenite suspect thread in mind, after all.

Thanks again for your feedback, I hope I was able to answer all of your concerns!
 
Fix the typo: "For example, Water almost always runs an Azumarill, Psyshic runs Mega Gardevoir..."
This isn't the thread for spelling/grammar discussions, if your gonna make a post on this, do it based on the topic posted, or something relevant going on in the metagame rn.
 
Is there any better way for a dragon type team to stop cloyster? The only
thing I have found that could possibly work is tricking a choice scarf on to it with latios after it's shell smashed. Kyurem-b dies to rock blast, and all others die to icicle spear.
 

iLlama

Nothing personal, I protect my people
Is there any better way for a dragon type team to stop cloyster? The only
thing I have found that could possibly work is tricking a choice scarf on to it with latios after it's shell smashed. Kyurem-b dies to rock blast, and all others die to icicle spear.
Scarf Lati@s outspeeds 1 Smash Cloyster. Pair that with either Stealth Rocks or ESpeed Dragonite and your problem is solved.
 
Well, it's been more than a month since Mega Sableye has been banned, so I would like to know: how are Ghost players handling the metagame so far without their two premier Ghost-types? Which new strategies and teams are they using now? Which Pokémon have increased in usage and which ones have lost a niche?

I know that the viability of the Ghost-type wasn't considered during the voting stage, but I'm curious to know how things have changed for them.
 
I'd like to start a discussion on Mega Medicham. After the Mega Sableye ban, it seems to have become the premier Psychic and Fighting Mega, mostly because of it's incredibly overwhelming power. There doesn't seem to be a single Pokemon in Monotype, that I have seen, that can claim to outright counter it.

Even the likes of Slowbro are 2HKO'd by the rare but not impossible Thunder Punch after Stealth Rocks. High Jump Kick simply DECIMATES whatever isn't a ghost type or inmune to it. As far as I have seen, this lead to a massive decrease in most Low Tiers in the high ladder, simply because Mega Medicham on Psychic is a incredibly tough matchup. (I'm talking the likes of Grass, Ice and Rock although Normal and other types weak to it's STABs are affected too.)

Combined with support from Scarf Victini and a now more common Stealth Rocks Jirachi, it seems like Mega Medicham on Psychic is an overwhelming force that most types struggle to check, including the likes of Steel after Doublade is gone.

As for Fighting, because Ghost is so rare on the ladder nowadays, it seems that it has decided to utilize Mega Medicham as a way to break the common Flying core more easily, despite the common argument of some Fighting mains, who say Gallade's speed and potential setup being better than this raw power.

Thoughts? Opinions? Am I completely off my rocker yet from losing to this thing conbined with Jirachi so much?
 
I'd like to start a discussion on Mega Medicham. After the Mega Sableye ban, it seems to have become the premier Psychic and Fighting Mega, mostly because of it's incredibly overwhelming power. There doesn't seem to be a single Pokemon in Monotype, that I have seen, that can claim to outright counter it.

Even the likes of Slowbro are 2HKO'd by the rare but not impossible Thunder Punch after Stealth Rocks. High Jump Kick simply DECIMATES whatever isn't a ghost type or inmune to it. As far as I have seen, this lead to a massive decrease in most Low Tiers in the high ladder, simply because Mega Medicham on Psychic is a incredibly tough matchup. (I'm talking the likes of Grass, Ice and Rock although Normal and other types weak to it's STABs are affected too.)

Combined with support from Scarf Victini and a now more common Stealth Rocks Jirachi, it seems like Mega Medicham on Psychic is an overwhelming force that most types struggle to check, including the likes of Steel after Doublade is gone.

As for Fighting, because Ghost is so rare on the ladder nowadays, it seems that it has decided to utilize Mega Medicham as a way to break the common Flying core more easily, despite the common argument of some Fighting mains, who say Gallade's speed and potential setup being better than this raw power.

Thoughts? Opinions? Am I completely off my rocker yet from losing to this thing conbined with Jirachi so much?
Mega Medicham is very good at the moment but I dont believe it should be banned, I believe Hoopa-U is what brings the core success.
 

iLlama

Nothing personal, I protect my people
I'd like to start a discussion on Mega Medicham. After the Mega Sableye ban, it seems to have become the premier Psychic and Fighting Mega, mostly because of it's incredibly overwhelming power. There doesn't seem to be a single Pokemon in Monotype, that I have seen, that can claim to outright counter it.

Even the likes of Slowbro are 2HKO'd by the rare but not impossible Thunder Punch after Stealth Rocks. High Jump Kick simply DECIMATES whatever isn't a ghost type or inmune to it. As far as I have seen, this lead to a massive decrease in most Low Tiers in the high ladder, simply because Mega Medicham on Psychic is a incredibly tough matchup. (I'm talking the likes of Grass, Ice and Rock although Normal and other types weak to it's STABs are affected too.)

Combined with support from Scarf Victini and a now more common Stealth Rocks Jirachi, it seems like Mega Medicham on Psychic is an overwhelming force that most types struggle to check, including the likes of Steel after Doublade is gone.

As for Fighting, because Ghost is so rare on the ladder nowadays, it seems that it has decided to utilize Mega Medicham as a way to break the common Flying core more easily, despite the common argument of some Fighting mains, who say Gallade's speed and potential setup being better than this raw power.

Thoughts? Opinions? Am I completely off my rocker yet from losing to this thing conbined with Jirachi so much?
Sableye and Doublade both counter Mega Medicham.
 
Sorry for not mentioning Sableye, it's true that it counters Medicham, but it's only seen on Dark teams or (lol) Ghost teams.
I did say "after doublade is gone", but yes, it does counter Medicham.
 
Hoopa-u s definitely a really tough switch due to its unpredictability of sets. Choice scarf causes it to outspeed most of the non-scarf metagame while still doing decent damage with special attacks while choice specs manages tons of crazy OHKO's. I see the choice scarf set more often just because hoopa-u is so frail, so its matchup against offensie teams is a lot better there, while its moes can still break most defensive walls due to that insanely high special attack. I'm running a mono-dragon team now and I always have to sac something to hoopa-u to scout what set it runs and it usually just bowls me over after that. Though that might just be me playing battle, my glicko1 rating is only like 1560 ish.
 
Time to state a hard fact here: by all accounts, the council has FAILED.
Failed to do what?
Failed to maintain a healthy metagame.
Failed to make the game interesting for all possible types.
Failed to ban obvious threats to the stability of the metagame.

Hoopa-Unbound deserves a ban. This isint even debatable. If they were to invent monotype as a teir now, and start with OU core rules, the first course of action would be to NOT include hoopa unbound. There is absolutley NO reason that we would bring back down hoopa unbound from ubers. it woud be madness! Sure we allow deoxys speed and defence in monotype, but thats because there utility is tied to OU's diverse range of pokemon. Hoopa unbound is in NO WAY limited like this. Hoopa unbound is actually arguably more of a threat in monotype considering the smaller range of team diversity in each situation, making scarf better as an item. And its not like hoopa unbound is an uncommon pokemon. Its an obligation on any psychic team worthy of play. There is absolutley NO argument whatsoever that can deny the above fact.

And dont try to bullshit your way into saying it would make psychic unviable. No, psychic was fine before. dark was also fine. actually, do to the mega sabeleye ban, ghost(and to an extent, dark) are STRUGGLING to keep up with psychic. Meloetta is great to eat up your common shadow ball and the psy-fight megas or gardevoir handle dark!

Ill say what ive said before and at this point cannot be denied. The ban system is bias.
In no reasonable system would Hoopa Unbound have been allowed to pass. And now, with the mega sabeleye ban, ghosts last vible mega pokemon and knock off deterrent are gone. so what are you expecting, hmm. that by removing one of the key pokemon of teams that check psychic type, your going to balance out hoopa unbound, a psychic type? WHAT, THE ****!

Im tired of repeating the same stuff in all of my gawd dam posts. Monotype council, please:

STOP.BEING.DUMB.
 
Time to state a hard fact here: by all accounts, the council has FAILED.
Failed to do what?
Failed to maintain a healthy metagame.
Failed to make the game interesting for all possible types.
Failed to ban obvious threats to the stability of the metagame.

Hoopa-Unbound deserves a ban. This isint even debatable. If they were to invent monotype as a teir now, and start with OU core rules, the first course of action would be to NOT include hoopa unbound. There is absolutley NO reason that we would bring back down hoopa unbound from ubers. it woud be madness! Sure we allow deoxys speed and defence in monotype, but thats because there utility is tied to OU's diverse range of pokemon. Hoopa unbound is in NO WAY limited like this. Hoopa unbound is actually arguably more of a threat in monotype considering the smaller range of team diversity in each situation, making scarf better as an item. And its not like hoopa unbound is an uncommon pokemon. Its an obligation on any psychic team worthy of play. There is absolutley NO argument whatsoever that can deny the above fact.

And dont try to bullshit your way into saying it would make psychic unviable. No, psychic was fine before. dark was also fine. actually, do to the mega sabeleye ban, ghost(and to an extent, dark) are STRUGGLING to keep up with psychic. Meloetta is great to eat up your common shadow ball and the psy-fight megas or gardevoir handle dark!

Ill say what ive said before and at this point cannot be denied. The ban system is bias.
In no reasonable system would Hoopa Unbound have been allowed to pass. And now, with the mega sabeleye ban, ghosts last vible mega pokemon and knock off deterrent are gone. so what are you expecting, hmm. that by removing one of the key pokemon of teams that check psychic type, your going to balance out hoopa unbound, a psychic type? WHAT, THE ****!

Im tired of repeating the same stuff in all of my gawd dam posts. Monotype council, please:

STOP.BEING.DUMB.
I'll keep this short because I know I am prone to writing way too much. The council put Hoopa-U up for suspect and the community voted to not ban it 50/50. That is hardly a council problem. It also doesn't do your voice any justice to be so rude while being so ignorant.
 
Time to state a hard fact here: by all accounts, the council has FAILED.
Failed to do what?
Failed to maintain a healthy metagame.
Failed to make the game interesting for all possible types.
Failed to ban obvious threats to the stability of the metagame.

Hoopa-Unbound deserves a ban. This isint even debatable. If they were to invent monotype as a teir now, and start with OU core rules, the first course of action would be to NOT include hoopa unbound. There is absolutley NO reason that we would bring back down hoopa unbound from ubers. it woud be madness! Sure we allow deoxys speed and defence in monotype, but thats because there utility is tied to OU's diverse range of pokemon. Hoopa unbound is in NO WAY limited like this. Hoopa unbound is actually arguably more of a threat in monotype considering the smaller range of team diversity in each situation, making scarf better as an item. And its not like hoopa unbound is an uncommon pokemon. Its an obligation on any psychic team worthy of play. There is absolutley NO argument whatsoever that can deny the above fact.

And dont try to bullshit your way into saying it would make psychic unviable. No, psychic was fine before. dark was also fine. actually, do to the mega sabeleye ban, ghost(and to an extent, dark) are STRUGGLING to keep up with psychic. Meloetta is great to eat up your common shadow ball and the psy-fight megas or gardevoir handle dark!

Ill say what ive said before and at this point cannot be denied. The ban system is bias.
In no reasonable system would Hoopa Unbound have been allowed to pass. And now, with the mega sabeleye ban, ghosts last vible mega pokemon and knock off deterrent are gone. so what are you expecting, hmm. that by removing one of the key pokemon of teams that check psychic type, your going to balance out hoopa unbound, a psychic type? WHAT, THE ****!

Im tired of repeating the same stuff in all of my gawd dam posts. Monotype council, please:

STOP.BEING.DUMB.
Yeah bro your bugging.. Lmao..
The Council isnt at fault, but I feel like they could do some things or try some things out and see If it will work in the meta.
 
I'll keep this short because I know I am prone to writing way too much. The council put Hoopa-U up for suspect and the community voted to not ban it 50/50. That is hardly a council problem. It also doesn't do your voice any justice to be so rude while being so ignorant.
Okay, sorry i was mad there for a moment. But to be fair, my argument for hoopa unbound being included if they were to remake monotype should be vaild: they should have emergency banned it (or something) when OU deemed it too powerfull and then reconsidered. All im saying is that currently, the metagame isint in a good shape and diversity and "fun" are at an all time low.
 
Okay, sorry i was mad there for a moment. But to be fair, my argument for hoopa unbound being included if they were to remake monotype should be vaild: they should have emergency banned it (or something) when OU deemed it too powerfull and then reconsidered. All im saying is that currently, the metagame isint in a good shape and diversity and "fun" are at an all time low.
I agree that Hoopa U is unhealthy, and I think their reasoning for Aegi ban is bullshit, but I will have to state the obvious. This is not oumonotype, and it stopped being oumonotype the second talon was banned. This is not an official tier and betrays all the reasoning behind the idea that "uu>ru" and such, your logic to follow the ban of an official tier is completely overturned the second you see a uber like deoxys get less usage than a pokemon like meloetta in ru. I agree that hoopa u deserves a ban and that maybe the council could've done a better job in a place or 2 but alas! All we can do now is wait for another suspect.
 
Hello, I (and most of you, I know it) want to bring Type-Only Bans back. I find it terrible how Types and the people playing them have to suffer, because of the dominance of something on another type. Take Mega Sableye for example. The dominance it has in Dark is really good. Especially with support from Mandibuzz and Tyranitar, whereas Mega Sableye on Ghost has almost nothing to back up on. Yet Mega Sableye on Ghost gets punished for being good at another type. This makes the not so good Ghost even worse and it seems like Dark doesn't really care much. I find it frustrating how the tier gets less balanced between types like this. I know it is impossible to completely balance out all types, but at least try to make the gap closer between types to make it more diverse and fun for everyone.

Then there's this issue of where it is "too" complex. I don't get how it is too complex when the current Baton Pass Clause exists. I know this is completely irrelevant and it was done as hard stop for something deemed broken or uncompetitive but the clause still exists. Don't you think newer players will think "dafuq" more when their Scolipede or Ninjask sets aren't allowed than Mega Charizard X on flying for example. People will not continuously ask why some stuff are and why some stuff aren't banned. There's this biological phenomenon called trial and error, it is what makes them learn from mistakes and will result in them not asking the entire time why something is banned and something else isn't. I also think it isn't complicated for coding either because the OM Enchanted Items exists, and I am 99% sure coding that OM is harder than banning a Pokémon or a Mega Stone from a certain Type.

I am sure only a handful of people don't like Type-Only Bans and I am sure many people out there are with me. The current metagame sucks and you know it. Sure there might be some points I have missed in this post but I hope i got a clear message across on why there should be Type-Only Bans. I hope to get lots of likes to support this message and hopefully get it implemented back into Monotype. We once had it, why can't we have it back? There are some things, Mega Sableye(Ghost), Aegislash(Ghost), Mega Charizard X(Fire), Smooth Rock(All types but Ground) and many more wanting to be back because they on said type(s) don't deserve the ban. Please help us get our good ol' Monotype back. It was more fun and I hope we can all agree on that. Don't forget fun is the #1 reason we're all here, right?
 
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Hello, I (and most of you, I know it) want to bring Type-Only Bans back. I find it terrible how Types and the people playing them have to suffer, because of the dominance of something on another type. Take Mega Sableye for example. The dominance it has in Dark is really good. Especially with support from Mandibuzz and Tyranitar, whereas Mega Sableye on Ghost has almost nothing to back up on. Yet Mega Sableye on Ghost gets punished for being good at another type. This makes the not so good Ghost even worse and it seems like Dark doesn't really care much. I find it frustrating how the tier gets less balanced between types like this. I know it is impossible to completely balance out all types, but at least try to make the gap closer between types to make it more diverse and fun for everyone. Then there's this issue of where it is "too" complex. I don't get how it is too complex when the current Baton Pass Clause exists. I know this is completely irrelevant and it was done as hard stop for something deemed broken or uncompetitive but the clause still exists. Don't you think newer players will think "dafuq" more when their Scolipede or Ninjask sets aren't allowed than Mega Charizard X on flying for example. People will not continuously ask why some stuff are and why some stuff aren't banned. There's this biological phenomenon called trial and error, it is what makes them learn from mistakes and will result in them not asking the entire time why something is banned and something else isn't. I also think it isn't complicated for coding either because the OM Enchanted Items exists, and I am 99% sure coding that OM is harder than banning a Pokémon or a Mega Stone from a certain Type. I am sure only a handful of people don't like Type-Only Bans and I am sure many people out there are with me. The current metagame sucks and you know it. Sure there might be some points I have missed in this post but I hope i got a clear message across on why there should be Type-Only Bans. I hope to get lots of likes to support this message and hopefully get it implemented back into Monotype. We once had it, why can't we have it back? There are some things, Mega Sableye(Ghost), Aegislash(Ghost), Mega Charizard X(Fire), Smooth Rock(All types but Ground) and many more wanting to be back because they on said type(s) don't deserve the ban. Please help us get our good ol' Monotype back. It was more fun and I hope we can all agree on that. Don't forget fun is the #1 reason we're all here, right?
I agree with this but to also add on, we should try some new things in the Meta because... The way this Meta is going is straight down and I believe if we dont test things, were going to be stuck.
 
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