Metagame NP: RU Stage 19: Trap Queen (Baton Pass Banned)

freezai

Live for the Applause
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Lanturn.


Lanturn @ Leftovers (The set I use,26 speed ivs lets u vswitch slower than aloma which is p cool, but is otherwise really customizable)
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 104 HP / 244 Def / 160 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Scald
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
Lanturn is a hidden gem and is extremely good. Its best set is rest talk (non rest struggles too much with longevity issues from my experience) and serves as a very good bulky pivot. It offers insane role compression by simultaneously being a fire check,water check electric check, fletch check, volt switch counter(except rotom mow sue me), steel check, scald spammer,status absorber, and slow turner. Its great mixed bulk coupled with volt switch make it tough to deal with. It doesnt suffer momentum sink syndrome like other bulky waters (Blastoise,Alomaloma); in fact momentum becomes an asset for it. Traditional water types just allow free switches to Virizion and Venusaur but the opponent cannot simply switch it in because all they do is get pivoted on. To further help Lanturn's cause, it is one of the few hard counters to Specs Magneton, a deadly threat in the game.

TLDR: Much momentum, much role compression much wow


252+ SpA Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 104 HP / 160+ SpD Lanturn: 31-37 (7.4 - 8.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever lol
252+ SpA Magneton Hidden Power Grass vs. 104 HP / 160+ SpD Lanturn: 128-152 (30.6 - 36.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery locked into hidden power is eww anyways
 
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Aberforth

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Ubers Leader
So after UU banned BP and RU kept it, I decided to make a team around Chickenpass in RU.

Combusken @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 216 HP / 40 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Focus Blast

Exploud @ Choice Specs
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 88 HP / 252 SpA / 168 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpD
- Boomburst
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Steel]
- Focus Blast

Xatu @ Kee Berry
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Stored Power
- Dazzling Gleam

Camerupt-Mega @ Cameruptite
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Substitute

Drapion @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Atk / 248 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
- Knock Off

Escavalier @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Megahorn
- Drill Run


There's probably a few ways to make the team more optimal (MAudino over Camerupt in particular) but it's still going to win on matchup a fair number of times. Baton Pass as a move, strategy and playstyle is broken and we should really just ban it already.
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun
I clicked "x" turn 5

He's my variation
I've had this team for awhile and planned on using it my entire seasonal run but activity sucks for I have to the wall and Miyami who had good results with it. It definitely a style that fucks up anything without major countermeasures so have fun.

Flame of Souls (Combusken) @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Baton Pass
- Protect
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp

Eye of Minds (Xatu) @ Kee Berry
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
- Signal Beam
- Roost

Strength of Gods (Hariyama) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 8 HP / 220 Atk / 28 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Heavy Slam
- Ice Punch

Heart of Dreams (Alomomola) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 120 HP / 136 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Scald
- Knock Off

Light of Skies (Registeel) @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 28 SpA / 228 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Thunderbolt
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic

Fear of Lives (Malamar) @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 108 SpD / 152 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
 

FlamingVictini

FV - msg on discord FlamingVictini#3784
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So after UU banned BP and RU kept it, I decided to make a team around Chickenpass in RU.

Combusken @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 216 HP / 40 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Focus Blast

Exploud @ Choice Specs
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 88 HP / 252 SpA / 168 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpD
- Boomburst
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Steel]
- Focus Blast

Xatu @ Kee Berry
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Stored Power
- Dazzling Gleam

Camerupt-Mega @ Cameruptite
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Substitute

Drapion @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Atk / 248 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
- Knock Off

Escavalier @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Megahorn
- Drill Run


There's probably a few ways to make the team more optimal (MAudino over Camerupt in particular) but it's still going to win on matchup a fair number of times. Baton Pass as a move, strategy and playstyle is broken and we should really just ban it already.
I really don't think you can make a convincing argument for those last statements without some substance in your post, other than just saying it as if its obviously true and also adding some team you threw together, not even with replays or anything. You posted twice calling for action (in a manner that makes me think you simply don't like baton pass, and i'll be honest, I hate losing to it too if in the situation that I also played optimally), but assuming everyone agrees with you that it is broken and should be banned is an extremely closed viewpoint. How about a thoughtful discussion about bp instead?

I have used BP in RU for quite some time now (both chicken pass and curse pass, which interestingly I found more consistent), and I know -Tsunami- has used sniper chicken pass to pretty good success. Based on my experience playing with and against BP in RU as well as from watching several games with it, I personally believe that its really not broken. Succesfully executing a pass (or multiple passes) in order to win/sweep is not brainless. It may seem this way, however, because the overall concept of baton pass is extremely straightforward, and can often lead to a single mon cleaning through the majority of the opponents team after being passed to. Succesfully creating the conditions in which a pass to a certain pokemon can result in a sweep, however, is not very straightforward, especially if the opponent is putting up the best defense they can against your gameplan. No one plays BP on a regular basis either, so many people fail to play in a way that adequately pressures the BP user into being unable to succesfully pass in a manner that can win the game. I too have lost games against BP, where looking back at the game, I realized doing something differently could have drastically changed the outcome.

Regarding the MU issue, most teams should already have the tools to defeat it provided they are used as needed in the mu to prevent a sweep - it doesn't really require special preperation to not lose to BP. That being said, BP has in my experience been more effective vs more bulky, passive teams, and I don't think its necessarily a bad thing to have something that plays well against such teams in this meta. I feel as if the MU issue is exaggerated because BP tends to perform overwhelmingly better when it does have a good match-up. That being said, this is just my stance on the issue based on my experience, and I'd be interested in hearing some fleshed out thoughts from others.
 
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Aberforth

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OK, if BP is not broken, the sensible thing to do is to remove the BP Clause altogether and just allow BP to exist without the restrictions it has on it.

The way I see it, the clause should not exist either way. If BP isn't broken, the Clause is restricting something that is fine, or if BP is broken, it should just be banned outright. None of this wishy-washy middle of the road stuff where we nerf it into manageability. We can apply something akin to the Baton Pass Clause for literally everything that has been banned to make it manageable by complex banning certain aspects or combinations of it, yet Baton Pass is the only thing we do this for. If someone says "why not just ban Speed Boost on Yanmega" or "Why not ban Choice Scarf on Tyrantrum" they can point to the Baton Pass clause as an example of us doing pretty much the exact same thing. I do not like this.

That's not to say I'm not biased against BP, I clearly hate it. I also hate Heatran, but I'm not calling for it to be banned because it's something that is completely fine, and we dont have "Heatran Clause" wherein Heatran cant use leftovers or something similarly asinine. Clausing should not be something we resort to, and I feel that if Baton Pass is broken without the clause, it should be banned altogether, whereas if Baton Pass is not-broken without the clause, then the clause is clearly pointless.

The existence of this clause goes against almost every tiering policy we've made. As direct comparisons (although all are either OU or UU) DrizzleSwim was banned rather than Drizzle on Kingdra/Kabu/Oma ext, Sand Veil was banned on everything, not just Gliscor, and for lower tiers, Drought and Drizzle were banned outright rather than complexly on Ninetails/Politoed. Baton Pass should be treated like every other broken non-pokemon aspect ever and just outright banned rather than complexly limited. The closest thing to this was DrizzleSwim, however even that doesn't make exceptions so that the worst SwiftSwim users were allowed to be used alongside Politoed, which is what the current BP Clause is like. DrizzleSwim would be akin to banning BP + Boosts, rather than what we currently have where you can pass any type of boost, just not necessarily in conjunction with one another, depending on which boosts you've gathered.
 
First off, Shoutouts to Zelfie for giving me the chicken pass team to run through seasonals with.

Baton Pass as a move garners a lot of hate for being "uncompetitive", "cancer", or "braindead" that can singlehandedly win games once it gets set up. However, it isn't broken and is far from braindead. Setting up the optimal situation to start the pass can actually be a challenge.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-468282114

^ Here is a game where I get set up, everything's going smoothly, then I start losing despite being able to get off multiple passes. While I did end up winning mostly due to Malamar having a favourable matchup against the remainder of my opponent's team, the fact remains that once set up Baton Pass does not win everything. It has reasonable countermeasures and is just as capable of suddenly losing as it is suddenly winning.

First off, the Passer does not have infinite health and wonder guard plus levitate on the electric typing, it is possible to hit the passer as it's trying to set up. Focus/SD/NP/Other non-Chicken pass are often going to be boosting in your face and people often switch out instead of attacking the passer. (And the only passer that doesn't need a move to boost is usually whittling its own HP with sub). For example, Combusken. If it's going to be using Sub + Protect, just keep killing its subs and it'll have to make more, reducing its longevity in the process. Additionally, by preventing it from getting a sub up, you are removing its ability to safely switch out into its usual target (Xatu for example.)

Secondly, the strategy has issues with, while relatively uncommon right now, moves that a lot of Pokémon learn. A single Taunt, Roar, Haze or Dragon Tail, (Or even Psych Up or Topsy Turvy for the hipsters) shuts down the entire strategy, and these are not uncommon moves. Rare on said Pokémon? Maybe. But they have use beyond Chicken Pass as almost all balance teams contain a boosting of some kind such as Drapion, Virizion, Torterra, Delphox, or Meloetta. If you really don't want to lose to BP or BP gets popular enough, it's not extroardinarily difficult to add one of these moves to your team if a mon on it learns it, or make necessary adjustments, and they aren't dead outside of just hitting BP. We're not pulling some mystical, otherwise useless mon from the depths of PU just to deal with it, we're just required to make edits if we really want to.

Also, a lot of people aren't looking at this the correct way. Well yes, we've had two tiers now ban Baton Pass (Or Speed + BP) and our thought process is "They're doing it so it must be broken, let's ban it". Take for example, NU's ban of Speed + BP in relation to PU.

NU Banned Speed + Baton Pass because the tier had Pokémon that were often held in check by their inability to be fast barring a scarf, such as Xatu and Malamar, along with a Pokémon capable of passing that to them with relative ease in Combusken. This paved way for its ban. If it's broken in NU, it must be broken in PU, right? No. PU, outside of having no decent Speed Passers (Subject to change with the introduction of Combusken), had no real use for the ban due to the strategy not being prevalent there, while ultimately NU made the complex ban to keep the non-broken parts of something (In this case, Combusken, Xatu, and Malamar most prominently) intact without changing the core parts of the various things affected too much.

UU, on the other hand, Banned Baton Pass almost entirely for flawed reasoning (More on that later) and because of Celebi. Celebi's ability to either pass boosts itself or just look at its check and say "Nah, I'll Pass" were a few of the reasons Celebi would have been put up for suspect. Essentially, once again, UU made a diffferent ban to keep the non-broken parts of something (Celebi becomes more manageable though still really busted without access to BP to get out of ugly situations) intact while not changing the core parts of Celebi too much. RU does not have Celebi, the main (and only non-flawed) catalyst for the BP ban in UU, so it made the decision to not ban BP.

Now what do you notice here? In both instances, a ban was made to restrict something broken while keeping the core elements of the thing intact.

The exact same thing we've been doing with Baton Pass itself.

The only reasons people are constantly crying for a BP ban are:

1) "We've restricted it before and it's still good"
2) "It's "uncompetitive"/"Braindead"/"Cancerous"/"Insertnegativeadjectivehere""

The first reasoning is ultimately flawed because it's simply lazy on the parts of the people who are saying it. While I won't deny Baton Pass' versatility or survivability, as those have been shown by results and varying teams, the fact that we've tried and failed lies on us and not baton pass, ultimately. Our ability to attempt to cull a move to our liking and subsequent, repeated failure doesn't show the move is broken, but rather that we haven't tried hard enough.

The second reason, which Aberforth has demonstrated for us in this thread, is that people have a dislike for Baton Pass. Why is this? Well, we on smogon have created what we call "the norm" - you've got your average Balance teams, a mix of offence and defence, and your Offence teams, which result in fast-paced exciting gameplay that everyone just loves. Then you've got other teams. The Stall Teams, BP, whatever you want to use here. These teams break from "the norm" in that they use different strategies, such as pure defence or a long, risky period of setting up for big reward. These teams are the ones people ostracize and cuss out - because they defy "the norm" that we've created in our heads: that you should set up hazards and attempt to win the game by primarily attacking. As such, strategies such as outlasting your opponent or using a high-risk, high-reward style are frowned upon and looked at as less legitimate.

Let's do an experiment. Let's say I was tier leader of a tier and people were complaining about Stall. We had had numerous restrictions and bans to attempt to reduce the impact of stall to no effect. Now, let's say I as tier leader said this:

"As a new rule, you will automatically lose the game if you do not use a move that deals direct damage once every 3 turns."

That's stupid, right? I only did it because people didn't like the playstyle, and in an effort to remove something people didn't like I put an absurd restriction on the game. While this is obviously extreme, the general point still lies within. I was attempting to remove something the game allowed for naturally. There's no in-game rule saying you have to attack, but it was decided by the community that all-out-offensive or mostly offensive teams were "more competitive" than other teams that from their view they felt offered "easy wins" or were "autopilot".

Attempting to remove something because people don't like the style is ludicrous. Baton Pass as a move is ultimately not broken in its current form. Maybe The Glorious Pass was broken, that I won't deny, but Baton Pass in its current form is a high-risk, high-reward playstyle that has its strengths and weaknesses, just like any other playstyle, and should not be treated as some unholy monster that wins matchups from T1 with no counters. As with any other team style, it has checks and counters, including prepared people and can be beaten with just one dedication of a moveslot. This isn't a case of AV Shell Armour Lapras being needed to only counter something, these single moves have their uses.

And honestly, if we just banned everything the general playerbase didn't like, why is RegiMola still in the tier? Why haven't we added a restriction that Registeel and Alomomola can't be in the same team just to please the playerbase that doesn't like defensive-based play? Baton Pass is no different, and we should not treat it differently because we dislike it or feel it's cheap.

If something were to come up that would make Baton Pass as a playstyle broken by definition, For example, something like Tyrantrum or Honchkrow, something so common and overbearing that has an undeniable negative effect on the tier that also garners enough use and attention to be considered truly broken, then I suggest examining all aspects of that thing instead of attempting to ban Baton Pass instantly.

tl;dr - BP in its current form isn't broken, but rather our own failings combined with the general nature of the style has caused a decent and vocal amount of players to call for it to be banned due to their dislike of it.

Final note: This post was not meant to call out or insult anyone, especially the UU Tiering council. I'm sure they had their discussions behind the scenes and I respect them for their decision, however what I saw in the thread from members of the UU tiering council indicates that at least some of them fell into the traps of wanting to ban something due to personal distaste. I'd just like us all to be aware of the pitfalls of human nature so we can better work around them.

Wow, this is the longest post I've ever made.
 
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atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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Due to UU's changes to the BP clause, as well as the conversations occurring(/that occurred) in PR and this thread about BP, the RU council will be holding a vote on whether we would like to change our BP clause to reflect NU's, UU's, no change, or ban combusken. It wasn't my intention for my decision at the time to insinuate that I was going to make a unilateral decision on BP, and since the announcement a couple council members have expressed interest in changing the BP clause, as such we will be doing a council vote on BP in RU. The vote will be held in 3 days (on the 14th) to allow you, the community, to express your thoughts on BP in this thread, obviously Aberforth, FV and Miyami~~ have all made posts about BP which would be a good starting point if you want to be involved in the conversation.

It will be an instant runoff vote where Council members will rank do nothing, adopt NU clause, ban bp, and ban combusken from most to least desirable, with the least voted on option eliminated at each turn until one option has reached a majority (5 out of 9 votes).
 
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Now that I am back on the council, I suppose I will post my thoughts. As one of the people who has most often abused this Combusken Pass strategy, I think I have a great deal of insight on its effectiveness in RU. Personally, I don't think we need to alter our BP clause at all. Speed Passing isn't really broken in the slightest; RU is ridiculously bulky and most teams can cope with it. The team I use is centered on Focus Energy Pass; it features Combusken in tandem with Octillery, Drapion, and Xatu. I also use Uxie and Mesprit for Yawn / Memento and Dual Screens, respectively. My team isn't anywhere close to broken; it loses to a lot of Pokemon, namely Fletchinder, Pokemon with Substitute, Pokemon with Roar, and the like. Other variations of BP I've seen suffer from the same problems, with some variants handling some of these threats better but faltering to others.

I think the main reason why people want to ban Baton Pass in RU is simple. If you make even one mistake, you can easily be destroyed in humiliating fashion by a strategy you consider to be cancerous. In a great deal of games I've won with Baton Pass, my opponent has made at least one misplay. Here is an example of a recent battle I played in RU Arena with Baton Pass: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ru-220470

I had absolutely no business winning this game. My team is absolutely destroyed by Fletchinder; if you literally switch to Fletchinder on Combusken, I am screwed. However, my opponent chose to stay in with a sleeping Diancie and was subsequently swept by an FU Pokemon.

Sure, some teams have no hope of stopping a Baton Pass chain, but in the same vein, some teams have absolutely no chance of breaking my five variants of RegiMola. BP isn't the only playstyle that can win at matchup, and it definitely does not win an unhealthy level of games at team preview. A great deal of teams come equipped to deal with Baton Pass, and pulling off a sweep often requires skillful play. I do not believe BP as a playstyle is inherently broken in any shape or form, and I do not think we need to alter our clause.
 
Before I make a post as to why the current BP clause we have is fine and doesn't need changing, I'd like to know why you waited about a month to bring this up. Could you do this, please?
 

atomicllamas

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Before I make a post as to why the current BP clause we have is fine and doesn't need changing, I'd like to know why you waited about a month to bring this up. Could you do this, please?
Yes, this is a fair question.

We (council) have been discussing this for the past couple weeks (as well as a couple other things in the meta game!) and had come to the conclusion that this was something worth at least taking a look at. The length of time it took for this to be resolved was also probably extended by the fact that this time period tends to be especially busy for people (holidays, finals for those in college, I just started a new job). In the future I will aim to be more proactive in my response to topics like this because I think my initial response in the UU thread made the council think I had come to a final decision on BP when I had only intended it to mean that at the time we were not adapting the bp ban because we hadn't discussed it (not that I wasn't open to discussing it), in that regards I dropped the ball, so my bad.
 
Everything I said in my earlier post still applies. Please read that.

Also, I'd like to stress again that the only difference between losing to a RegiMola team and a Baton Pass team is one in your own head - we as a community have decided that Baton Pass is "uncompetitive" and therefore make a point of that. I'm not here to argue that unrestricted Baton Pass is broken, as that is completely irrelevant to the question right now.

Baton Pass as a playstyle works like any other playstyle: You attempt to achieve your win condition. BP's win condition is the same as any other team's win condition. However, BP's attempt to reach that wincon is vastly different. Here's a list of some playstyles and how they aim to achieve their win condition:

- Hyper Offense: Attack over and over using fast and powerful Pokémon and only switch when you need to
- Balance: Switch between offensive and defensive threats to outlast your opponent or power through them
- Stall: Outlast your opponent and force constant switches to build residual damage
- Weather: Set up your weather condition, then run through your opponent with extremely fast and powerful Pokémon.
- Baton Pass: Attempt to set up enough boosts to pass to a threat, then sweep.

That's just a few strategies on a very basic level. What makes Baton Pass any different than these? As a strategy, it could be argued that Baton Pass is worse in a sense than the others I mentioned barring Weather. It's very unreliable. If your opponent knows what to do vs a Baton Pass team (IE don't give your opponent free turns to do whatever they want), you're likely Screwed. Additionally, once you've gotten set up you don't always win. While I don't have the replay saved, I had a game vs TheWall22 in which I got set up, passed to Xatu, Boosted, and then still lost because I ran out of roosts and Xatu couldn't muscle through everything. This is not a be-all-end-all win from the second you start the game playstyle, but a high-risk, high-reward slightly below average playstyle that we're mostly banning because people don't like it.
 

Aberforth

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The thing about Baton Pass is that there shouldn't be these weird runoff options, it should be relatively simple.

a) Have Baton Pass unrestricted (AKA remove the clause entirely)
b) Ban Baton Pass

This clausing of the move beyond belief is not something that should be done, the only similar thing has been Sleep Clause, which is immensely less complex than the current Baton Pass clause is.

The question should be "Is unrestricted Baton Pass broken?" If yes, ban BP, if no, un-clause BP. The argument that unrestricted baton pass isn't relevant to the discussion is one I do not agree with at all. Ideally, this will correct a mistake (in my opinion) in our current tiering system, as it should not have been claused in the first place, and thus we should be acting as if the clause does not exist and looking into the situation as it would be with unrestricted baton pass. The Baton Pass clause is the biggest exception we have to our tiering policy, and has been nerfed a half-dozen times to no avail, and further nerfing of it seems ridiculous. People get laughed at for suggesting banning Hurricane to keep Moltres/Mega Pidge or banning Quiver Dance to preserve Venomoth, however that is a close comparison with Baton Pass, and much more accurate as a comparison than what actually happens in those decisions (banning the broken thing and not arbitrarily nerfing it).

Some would argue that this is different because Baton Pass is a move, however I disagree with that assertion, because when something vaguely similar happened before (OHKO Moves) we just banned them. Now, OHKO moves are obviously more broken than Baton Pass, however similar to BP they would not have been broken on things like Rhydon/Spheal/Nidoran. But we recognised that the broken element was not the Pokemon in that instance, and was instead the move. I feel Baton Pass is also in this boat.

As for this current iteration of Baton Pass, it is debatable whether it is banworthy or not, I personally feel like the extent of preparation required to adequately deal with baton pass is a bit too much. There are a few ways to be solid on a teambuilder level against BP (Fletch, Rhyperior, Drapion kind of) but I feel they are both too few in number to be satisfactory and without those few, you are required to not make a single misplay, or a single turn can lose you the game. What's more, in this second time, this is heavily in the favour of the Baton Pass team, as in these situations, the risk-reward balance is tilted heavily in their favour, they will only need to win what can be a 50/50 situation once in order to win the game, and if they do not get that 50/50 correct, they are normally capable of continuing the game. Or to phrase it from the point of view of facing Baton Pass, if you get it right you prolong the game and give yourself a chance to win, if you get it wrong you lose the game. I feel this, combined with the little available counterplay on a teambuilder level, means Baton Pass should be banned, especially considering the fact that this is already a nerfed aspect of a broken move, and we can fix the mistake in our tiering.
 

MrAldo

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The thing about Baton Pass is that there shouldn't be these weird runoff options, it should be relatively simple.

a) Have Baton Pass unrestricted (AKA remove the clause entirely)
b) Ban Baton Pass
This would be valid if we were at the start of the gen and if we didnt allowed the baton pass worm to grow so big to the point we cant stand it. Like we had to ban specific moves combinations, revisit the baton pass clause countless times to provide immediate solutions to a problem we though it was specific instead of seeing the big equation. There should have been a more in-depth analysis of baton pass, but it is too late for that and we will try to solve the issue this complicated way because the system practically allows it.

Anyways, on to baton pass in the tier. I think baton pass isnt an actual problem at least for RU standards. I mean that we dont have a baton pass user that is exceedingly overwhelming on its own merits and can take advantage of so many builds. UU for example, had Celebi which it is an incredibly good Pokemon on its own and it being able to pass boosts was the icing of a extremely good cake thanks to its unique traits (100 base hp, typing, gg stall, etc). Then there was Combusken in NU that not only had to use the sub pass set since it could use physical and special sets, and being a much better Pokemon by NU standards. And then there is OU with Scolipede which is far from being a terrible Pokemon in there, having salvageable niches besides speed passing.

In here, we have the same thing as NU, but on a metagame far better equipped to deal with it. Combusken by RU standards is absolutely terrible, while it has a distinctive niche compared to other fire types that requires you to build a whole team around it restricting your team building in many ways since other fire types offer much more to the table in terms of role compression or being much more effective overall. Xatu being the most notably recipient, is on a metagame that is pretty rough to it with most Dark types being really good, pursuit being prevalent and Pokemon like Aerodactyl demolishing it. And not taking into account the rest of the Psychic-types that put inmense pressure on it.. The best baton pass build (based on its tournament success) I have seen I guess would be the one by -Tsunami-, which uses a ridiculous mon in Octillery for some reason (adding an unmatched fun value ngl), but like that build have plenty of problems on its own. Like not having a flying resist so something like Fletchinder, Braviary and Aerodactyl putting inmense work (Braviary is fun for memento shenanigans). So it could be easily be screwed over with Pokemon that are far from niche or specific.

Solution? Id say we could just reflect NU´s Baton Pass ban list tbh. IIRC they just banned the speed passing, and that would solve the "issue" or nullify the worse offender that is Combusken in terms of baton pass for this tier (like really, it is the only offender since I dont see people talking from everything else). IIRC FlamingVictini had a build that uses some curse pass, if he could share his thoughts guess that would help.

Personally, Id be fine with either decision except for reflecting the UU one because Baton Pass isnt annoying or unhealthy on its own. Because Baton Pass, the move by itself with no boosts isnt overwhelming (in fact it is an useful tool for pivoting), other types of boost passing not being as problematic and the baton passers themselves being really mediocre, and speed passing being the only one that seemingly break the game, we could reflect NU's ban list in terms of baton pass, be done with it and let combusken riot in lower tiers. Really specific method of dealing with it but the system allow it and I dont say a problem with taking advantage of that at this point in time.
 
The thing about Baton Pass is that there shouldn't be these weird runoff options, it should be relatively simple.

a) Have Baton Pass unrestricted (AKA remove the clause entirely)
b) Ban Baton Pass

This clausing of the move beyond belief is not something that should be done, the only similar thing has been Sleep Clause, which is immensely less complex than the current Baton Pass clause is.

The question should be "Is unrestricted Baton Pass broken?" If yes, ban BP, if no, un-clause BP. The argument that unrestricted baton pass isn't relevant to the discussion is one I do not agree with at all. Ideally, this will correct a mistake (in my opinion) in our current tiering system, as it should not have been claused in the first place, and thus we should be acting as if the clause does not exist and looking into the situation as it would be with unrestricted baton pass. The Baton Pass clause is the biggest exception we have to our tiering policy, and has been nerfed a half-dozen times to no avail, and further nerfing of it seems ridiculous. People get laughed at for suggesting banning Hurricane to keep Moltres/Mega Pidge or banning Quiver Dance to preserve Venomoth, however that is a close comparison with Baton Pass, and much more accurate as a comparison than what actually happens in those decisions (banning the broken thing and not arbitrarily nerfing it).

Some would argue that this is different because Baton Pass is a move, however I disagree with that assertion, because when something vaguely similar happened before (OHKO Moves) we just banned them. Now, OHKO moves are obviously more broken than Baton Pass, however similar to BP they would not have been broken on things like Rhydon/Spheal/Nidoran. But we recognised that the broken element was not the Pokemon in that instance, and was instead the move. I feel Baton Pass is also in this boat.

As for this current iteration of Baton Pass, it is debatable whether it is banworthy or not, I personally feel like the extent of preparation required to adequately deal with baton pass is a bit too much. There are a few ways to be solid on a teambuilder level against BP (Fletch, Rhyperior, Drapion kind of) but I feel they are both too few in number to be satisfactory and without those few, you are required to not make a single misplay, or a single turn can lose you the game. What's more, in this second time, this is heavily in the favour of the Baton Pass team, as in these situations, the risk-reward balance is tilted heavily in their favour, they will only need to win what can be a 50/50 situation once in order to win the game, and if they do not get that 50/50 correct, they are normally capable of continuing the game. Or to phrase it from the point of view of facing Baton Pass, if you get it right you prolong the game and give yourself a chance to win, if you get it wrong you lose the game. I feel this, combined with the little available counterplay on a teambuilder level, means Baton Pass should be banned, especially considering the fact that this is already a nerfed aspect of a broken move, and we can fix the mistake in our tiering.
I'm going to respond to all these things in bold:

"There shouldn't be these weird runoff options":
Why not? If the point of banning and restricting something is to create a healthy metagame, why shouldn't we restrict Baton Pass to the point where it's not overwhelming or underwhelming? That same idea is what we've used with Sleep Clause. We've limited one Pokémon to be put to sleep as a way to restrict the move. Nobody denies that doesn't work, but the same logic could be applied. I could say that we needed to unrestrict or ban sleep-inducing moves because the question is "Is unrestricted Sleep broken? If yes, ban Sleep. If no, un-clause Sleep."

The clausing of a move, ability, or mechanic can be considered silly, however I think that it is a viable way to restrain something broken that should only be done if necessary and there is no other option. See: Sleep Clause. As it stands, Baton Pass is a move we have the capacity to restrict to a form that is not what we define broken - doing that is always better than ban and never look back, even if it is messy.

We aren't here to discuss unrestricted Baton Pass. The question is "Which out of the four options that we have been presented is the best option for the tier?". So it's up to us as a playerbase to decide which of these options presented to us in this post is the best for the tier.

do nothing, adopt NU clause, ban bp, and ban combusken
Trying to ban BP for unrestricted Baton Pass is like you going to jail for a crime you did commit and then years later you go to jail for a crime you didn't commit because you'd done one in the past so obviously you did it now.

>I personally feel like the extent of preparation to deal with Baton Pass is too much
>Proceeds to list two splashable, versatile mons that can fit on any playstyle

Do you feel that adding a mon with few downsides and lots of upsides, that can run multiple sets for a multitude of playstyles, is too much preperation? Additionally, you are not required to not make a single mistake. While one mistake can cost you the match, often that mistake would be something like staying in with a sleeping Pokémon, attempting to spin hazards, attempting to wishpass, etc.

Would you do that stuff if your opponent is using Swords Dance with Virizion or Calm Mind with Sigilyph? No? Then why would you let this boosting sweeper boost?

If you would do that sort of thing vs a regular boosting sweeper, you deserve to lose to any Virizion you meet. Smart play is the answer to Baton Pass. Do we have to bring out freaking Vullaby or something to counter it? No? Is it stopped by Smart play and conventional means? Yes.

And lastly, the goal is to create a healthy metagame. Baton Pass is not unhealthy. The stigma surrounding it? That's the most unhealthy part about Baton Pass. It's no different than losing to Hyper Offence. The clause that Baton Pass has now is not a "mistake" - restriction over banning is something that should be done when we can. See: Sleep Clause, or seperate tiering for base forms and mega stones. While a straightforward clause is more appealing to human nature, it's not always the best option and what we have now is fine.

Good Day.
 

Aberforth

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Your first point can be reworded for literally any complex ban and it still makes complete sense. That is why it was a mistake. Why shouldn't we restrict Moltres/Tyrantrum/Honchkrow ext? Make them not overwhelming nor underwhelming.

If, in spite of sleep clause, we were still discussing sleep as being something potentially broken in every tier, that might need to be further restricted for it to not be unhealthy, I'd argue the same thing. But, funny thing about exceptions to the rule, when they are no longer exceptions, but are turning into the norm, that is worrisome.

The crime comparison is silly, it's more akin to if you committed a crime and were not prosecuted, then the error is found and you go to jail for the original crime. Or to use your comparison, you get sent to jail for life with no bail, but then escape before you're caught again.

As for the examples I gave, sorry for not wanting to be forced into running one of two pokemon on every single team I make to be solid against a single team. They are good pokemon, but edge rhyperior is not a guaranteed solution and fletchinder requires a fair amount of the team dedicated to it. If it was 10-15 or something, fair enough, but 2 is too few.

The misplay I was talking about was not talking about stuff like spinning or wish passing, but about things like attacking or clicking roar predicting which baton pass recipient would be involved. It is not a simple 1 to 1 comparison to Virizion, which is worse at exerting pressure in most situations and doesnt require nearly as specific counterplay, and also for the matter has far more readily available and good checks on a team builder level than BP does.

And no this is not like Megas or Sleep Clause. It's pretty close to Sleep Clause, but that is supposed to be the single exception to our tiering, not a model on which to proceed. And Megas...what? That comparison makes no sense to me. Are you trying to say that because we consider negas full pokemon, it's fine to nerf stuff to avoid banning the broken stuff?

The stigma surrounding Baton Pass only exists due to the mistake of not banning BP as a whole. People feel like BP should have been banned as a whole (mostly anecdotal evidence on this point) and thus when they find yet another version of the broken move beating them, it naturally pisses them off.

As for why we shouldn't do NU's BP clause, it is further nerfing of a broken element that we shouldn't indulge in for the terrible precedent that it sets (annoyed at NU for it too) in that we will continuously nerf the broken things rather than ban the actual problem, the move. All similar examples aside from sleep have been very simple in their banning of the problem. Swagger? Banned globally. Evasion? The same. Moody? Nah bidoof not any more. OHKO moves? Gone, sorry NidoranM. Baton Pass has been broken more times than anything else that we have not already banned, and we should correct that mistake when we have the opportunity.

Finally, the preservation of drypass (aka complex ban bp to not be able to pass any boosts) should definitely not be considered. It is vastly different to the in game mechanic, to the point where the move is so vastly different from its intended purpose that it makes a mockery of the idea of not just nerfing everything.
 
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Senpai D.M

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Now that I am back on the council, I suppose I will post my thoughts. As one of the people who has most often abused this Combusken Pass strategy, I think I have a great deal of insight on its effectiveness in RU. Personally, I don't think we need to alter our BP clause at all. Speed Passing isn't really broken in the slightest; RU is ridiculously bulky and most teams can cope with it. The team I use is centered on Focus Energy Pass; it features Combusken in tandem with Octillery, Drapion, and Xatu. I also use Uxie and Mesprit for Yawn / Memento and Dual Screens, respectively. My team isn't anywhere close to broken; it loses to a lot of Pokemon, namely Fletchinder, Pokemon with Substitute, Pokemon with Roar, and the like. Other variations of BP I've seen suffer from the same problems, with some variants handling some of these threats better but faltering to others.

I think the main reason why people want to ban Baton Pass in RU is simple. If you make even one mistake, you can easily be destroyed in humiliating fashion by a strategy you consider to be cancerous. In a great deal of games I've won with Baton Pass, my opponent has made at least one misplay. Here is an example of a recent battle I played in RU Arena with Baton Pass: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ru-220470

I had absolutely no business winning this game. My team is absolutely destroyed by Fletchinder; if you literally switch to Fletchinder on Combusken, I am screwed. However, my opponent chose to stay in with a sleeping Diancie and was subsequently swept by an FU Pokemon.

Sure, some teams have no hope of stopping a Baton Pass chain, but in the same vein, some teams have absolutely no chance of breaking my five variants of RegiMola. BP isn't the only playstyle that can win at matchup, and it definitely does not win an unhealthy level of games at team preview. A great deal of teams come equipped to deal with Baton Pass, and pulling off a sweep often requires skillful play. I do not believe BP as a playstyle is inherently broken in any shape or form, and I do not think we need to alter our clause.
I'm bad why would you share that replay lol.. but yea f baton pass
 

phantom

Banned deucer.
RU has never had the chance to vote on BP before. This is the first time it happened this gen, so "we", never decided how to tier it, but just went along with whatever OU did. For the record, and the main reason why I want to see it gone, to which I have't seen a good argument against, is because I think the way the current BP clause is set up is completely nonsensical, and I don't think that because it's a move it should be allowed to transcend the logic of the tiering system. BP, the way it's set up right now, isn't even just complex, it's a complex ban within a complex ban for really no good reason. Even NU is currently reevaluating their take on BP, which goes to show that just banning Speed Pass probably isn't a good idea. I don't see the point in preserving it and maintaining the status quo because quite frankly, the status quo makes no sense and sets bad precedent. Why bend over backwards for BP specifically? To preserve what, exactly? This? Come on.
 

FlamingVictini

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Curse pass was effective in my experience, nothing broken or unhealthy at all though. Speed pass isn't broken or unhealthy either. I think the point about a "stigma" against baton pass is pretty valid. If you need an example, just look at the last few sentences of Spirit's post.

IMO the strongest argument for a BP ban, and something that has shifted my opinion, is what Spirit said:
the way the current BP clause is set up is completely nonsensical, and I don't think that because it's a move it should be allowed to transcend the logic of the tiering system. BP, the way it's set up right now, isn't even just complex, it's a complex ban within a complex ban for really no good reason... I don't see the point in preserving it and maintaining the status quo because quite frankly, the status quo makes no sense and sets bad precedent.
I think there is unanimous agreement that stuff like full baton pass chains or geopass are broken/unhealthy and don't have any place in any metagame. The question isn't whether BP is still broken even with the current clause in effect (Its not, the current clause does effectively balance it). The question is whether we want to set the precedent for such a horribly complex clause just to preserve part of a move and only get rid of the "broken part." Quite frankly, I think the answer is no. It definitely pains me as a builder that I won't be able to have a cute little sd pass or dry pass mawile on my team, or that I won't be able to tinker around with balanced uses of BP like curse pass or focus energy pass, but for the greater good, the current clause is horribly complex and there really is no good reason (at least one that I can think of) to keep it that way.
 
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Kushalos

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There shouldnt even be a clause. If UU bans something this should also be reflected in the tiers below it with the exception of LC. If UU suddenly decides to ban Alomomola for some reason, RU can't say "we've suspected it already and it was fine so it stays". Like Spirit said, Baton Pass shouldnt be an exception because its a move.
 
looking at ru alone, banning baton pass overall is a silly idea since on some pokemon its basically a nice and dandy non-damaging uturn (medicham specifically though there might be one more). personally i really hate losing my medicham and so i like bp to escape that. by banning baton pass we are also banning subpass which i dont think is broken. its a free switch but its balanced by this tiers shitty sub passers and the limited subs. if i had power id ban simply bp + any stat boost and maybe focus energy. this is still a complex ban (though simplier than the original), but i feel like its the best compromise between an outright ban and explaining to 9 year olds why just one specific stat is banned. this gets rid of the need to ban multiple bp usages and the need to ban combusken.

also i agree with kush's above statement. even if each banned mon effects tiers differently, its simplier to ban things from every tier below its ban rather than having every tier have its own crazy rules it has to explain to newcomers.
 
I don't mind banning it for that reason. I was just under the impression it was somehow an exception the general public was fine with. I just don't believe we should ban it for being unhealthy in RU specifically, since it isn't anywhere close to broken IMO. But if we want to ban it because we feel the clause is overly complex and differs from Smogon's normal method of tiering, I would support that.
 

atomicllamas

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There shouldnt even be a clause. If UU bans something this should also be reflected in the tiers below it with the exception of LC. If UU suddenly decides to ban Alomomola for some reason, RU can't say "we've suspected it already and it was fine so it stays". Like Spirit said, Baton Pass shouldnt be an exception because its a move.
Smogon tiers pokemon, if UU banned Alomomola it would be BL, and because it can't be used in UU, it can't achieve the less than 3.41% usage (this is weird wording and I can clarify if people need me too). Smogon does not, and should not aim to tier moves or abilities (obviously there are times where it is necessary to ban them but what I mean to say I will clarify), if Baton Pass (or baton pass in whatever state) is banned from UU it doesn't necessarily mean it is broken in RU (as people itt seem to be indicating), and unlike a pokemon, it isn't tiered based on usage in the above tier so there is no reason it /has/ to be reflected in lower tiers (unlike with Pokemon). Just as a for instance, UU in the beginning of the generation had T-Spikes voted on as something that could be banned, it would be absolutely dumb for T-Spikes to be banned in RU when we have Venu / Flygon / Drapion as three of the better mons in the tier, even though it is theoretically possible for there to be a meta in which t spikes is broken (probably).

That being said if people feel like it is necessary to ban baton pass because they dislike complex bans as a whole, I think that is a much more reasonable stance. We should in general try to avoid complex bans, but there is nothing about BP clause that implies we HAVE to allow for more complex bans in the future, precedent is used to justify future tiering decisions, but it is not enough on its own. Additionally, correcting BP clause won't mean there isn't precedent for complex bans (sleep clause <- this one is actually the worst cause it deviates from cart mechanics, drizzle swim now weather + speed boost). If we were just addressing the bp clause from the beginning I'd be more open to just banning baton pass, but at this point if the majority of people feel that there is nothing wrong with how BP is in RU I feel like its trying to fix something that isn't broken.

Also I see this brought up a lot but I think how hard the bp clause is to explain is greatly exaggerated and PS does a pretty good job in its implementation in the team builder of explaining on a level that most anyone can understand.



I guess the TL;DR is breaking transitivity for at least moves is a fundamentally necessary thing if smogon is going ban them, we should aim to limit complex bans and I can sympathize with that line of reasoning, but I don't think that bp clause is putting Smogon over the edge and as its not really an issue in RU with the current limitations, I'm not sure we should be doing anything other than maintaining the status quo.
 
yo yo, figured i should say my piece real quick. kinda late, but holiday season means intensive hours and i NEEDED to speak bc i care about u guys. to open, i do not consider bp to a threat to the stability of ru, at least in its current capacity. shakes post is on point, no denying anything there, and if I might tack on anything it'd be that playstyles forming around certain meta trends (in this case the limited phazing outlets and the difficulties the set up consistent fletchinder teams) are completely natural in a healthy meta, as is the reactionary adaptation of builds from that point on. however, the reason i chose to vote as i did (ban bp / nothing / irrelevant) is by and large a matter of setting precedent. im in a pretty similar boat with spirit on the idea that pussyfooting around a hard bp ban is harmful to policy development (not so much a 'slippery slope' as it is simply another footnote to more of the same), and ultimately ru is an environment whose stability will be in no great way altered by its absense, making it a pretty ideal setting to set this idea up. i do acknowledge that yes, banning bp will result in cuts to otherwise feasible options (scarf cham, mawile-ish), but none do i feel as quintessential to a point of forgoing this opportunity as a community. this is an issue that's reared its head over 4 gens now, in varying capacities, and almost every time it's either been shelved or compromised upon. thus the 'do nothing' as option 2 for me, i feel it important enough to not give in to that idea of compromise for the sake of a slight provision here. hope that made sense, on my phone and my fingers are cold xx
 

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