Morelull, Shiinotic Discussion

So does Strength Sap heal based on the Pokemon's actual Attack stat, or its boosted stat? Like if you use it on a +1 Zard-X, do you get healed by 359 points, or by 538? Strength Sap seems like a really amazing move: even if you hit Special Pokemon with it, you're still recovering a good chunk of health.

I think Shiinotic is deceptively good and will find a niche in OU, even with Tapu Bulu competing. Strength Sap just invalidates a ton of physical threats. The abilities suck though: Effect Spore can sometimes fuck over your attempts to Spore. I really don't see why people are comparing this to Amoonguss. They have different types letting them check different threats, a different movepool, and fill different niches. Strength Sap is huge, and Spotlight has some great doubles potential. It has Moonblast which can also weaken special Pokemon that try and break through.

Also: potential doubles strat: use Strength Sap on allied Bisharp, raising its attack while healing you. Use Spotlight and Spore as needed to support. Or just use Strength Sap on opponents.
 
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This pokemon looks viable. Very cool typing but Poison types make it quiver in fear. Has spore, thunderwave, moonblast, etc. Strength Sap looks like it will really help I wonder how it works exactly. I think Amongus has more advantages over it though.
 
Well, even if it is versing a non physical attacking Pokemon, it can still get a sort of decent amount of health with Strength Sap. For example, against a Rotom-W with a Bold Nature and 0 attack IVs, it gets 37% of its health back. Not amazing or anything, but it's not really all that bad. And even better against Keldeo, under the same circumstances it gets 46% HP back. I know these aren't the best examples since Giga Drain would work better but it's just a look into the fact it's actually pretty decent on even non physical attackers.
 
I feel like this mon is more suited towards Singles than Doubles. Unless Spotlight works on itself aside from the Spotlight + Baneful Bunker combo i've heard about, Spore is almost nullified in VGC thanks to the presence of Tapu Koko/Fini, one of it's greatest strengths unfortunately. It's great to throw out against physical attackers though to force them out or else they slowly get their health and strength slowly sapped away.
 

Pikachu315111

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A slow, Special & defensive focused Pokemon. It's goal is not only to stall, but have an activ role wearing the opponent down.

Looking at utilities first it has quite the toys with Spore, Strength Sap, Moonlight (yet one of its Abilities is Rain Dish), Ingrain, Spotlight, Confuse Ray, and Thunder Wave (and Substitute can also be useful here). You can plan a lot with those alone, but it still has offensive potential. STAB options are straight forward, and for other moves it gets Dream Eater and Sludge Bomb (and Charge Beam). Finally I spot Leech Seed and Amnesia (and Poison Powder and Stun Spore) in its Egg Moves.

I can see this thing being a nuisance. Afflicting a variety of status ailments (mainly sleep), Sporing and Dream Eating, Strength Sapping physical attackers, directing where attacks are going, and constantly healing up. And that's before putting it in a Trick Room team.
 

Karxrida

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Who uses Dream Eater seriously? The only meta I could see that being a thing is 1v1.

Strength Sap is cool but seems to be too situational due to how it's dependent on the target and Shiinotic wants to run other moves. It already needs Spore + Moonlight and at least one STAB move (it's got Base 90 Special Attack and Moonblast, use it), plus it has stuff like T-Wave that's a bit more consistently useful. It might get use depending on what boosted sweeper Shiinotic is able to survive a hit from and cripple, but I dunno.
 
Who uses Dream Eater seriously? The only meta I could see that being a thing is 1v1.

Strength Sap is cool but seems to be too situational due to how it's dependent on the target and Shiinotic wants to run other moves. It already needs Spore + Moonlight and at least one STAB move (it's got Base 90 Special Attack and Moonblast, use it), plus it has stuff like T-Wave that's a bit more consistently useful. It might get use depending on what boosted sweeper Shiinotic is able to survive a hit from and cripple, but I dunno.
Hm, I would still wager strength sap is Shiinotics best move. Moonlight / Strength sap / moonblast / spore / definitely seems its best set.
 
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Call me crazy but I don't even think it needs Moonlight, it can use Strength Sap as its default healing move. Even when using Strength Sap against usual defensive switch-ins like Amoonguss, you still recover about 50% of your health every time. If they switch in Ferrothorn you are healing by 66% and neutering it for your own switch-in. You heal less than half against a lot of defensive Pokemon, but it's worth it for the incredible utility it gets against non-defensive Pokemon. The main flaw here is Chansey though, as you get healed by a hefty 13 points whenever you Strength Sap it.

This begs the question: how much PP does Strength Sap have? (why isn't this posted in the OP)
If it has 5 base PP, which seems reasonable, Moonlight could pad that out nicely.
 
Agreed. I think shiinotic might actually gain viability from not investing into its HP at all, or only a little, and rather spread its evs between defence and sp.def, as it means HP recovered from strength sap is greater. Now all special attacking mons or non physical-attacking mons in the tier are going to run no attack ivs.
no, this thing's barely usable defenses basically force it to invest as heavily as it can, which most of the time will mean maxing HP and physical defense. You're still getting a lot of HP recovery, as base 60 is quite poor.

it is a shame this thing doesn't get calm mind, as it would work really nicely with strength sap being pseudo will-o-wisp and healing in one move.
 
I can see HP Poison being popular on special attackers if this thing becomes a popular wall for whatever tier it will sit in.
 
Dat face tho

Why does a Fairy type Pokemon look like one of the most horrifying things Gamefreak has ever created? Imagine this thing shows up in front of your face at night...

This thing will Spore you, Eat your Dreams while it Strength Saps your entire soul.
 
Strength Sap looks really good. Not as reliable as Recover, or even Synthesis for that matter, but the Intimidate effect is really nice, even though it really hurts its ability to stall things to death. It looks like it's a low risk/ high reward recovery move to me. Assuming Shiinotic is running 252 HP EVs, if an Alakazam switches in with a -Atk nature (Base 50 Atk), Shiinotic is still going to recover 38% of its HP. Not too shabby, and way better than the 25% weather based healing provides in detrimental weather, although i suspect special attackers switching into Shiinotic will most likely be a more common scenario. Watch out for Spore though.

Strength Sap looks busted vs physical attackers. Shiinotic gains 100%!!! of it's HP back if it uses it on a defensive Lando-T (Base 145 Atk, hits 326). Anything with 115 Atk fully invested with a neutral nature to 145 Atk uninvested heals Shiinotic back to 100%. The lowest an HP stat can be and still heal Shiinotic at least 50% is base 72 with a -Atk nature. The current Pokemon in OU and BL that have an attack stat lower than 70 are... Chansey (5), Gengar (65), Rotom-W (65), Alakazam (50), Togekiss (50), and Volcarona (60), not of which are immune to Spore.

This is all assuming I am correct in my understanding of how Strength Sap works. Shiinotic with 252 HP EVs has a HP stat of 324. Keldeo with a Timid nature has an attack stat of 162. Therefore, Shiinotic should recover 162 points of HP, exactly 50%.
 
Don't forget that Strength Sap includes boosts in the calculation, if Shiinotic were to use it on a mon with 200 Atk at +1, he'd get 300 HP back, but at -1 only 134 HP. This unfortunately means you'll have diminishing returns because Strength Sap lowers the opponents Atk stat. So for prolonged stalling you might need Moonlight.
 
My one concern with Shiinotic in VGC is that Tapu Koko will likely be everywhere, with some Tapu Fini now and then, and both of them create terrain that negates sleep. Considering that Bulu would put a second slow Grass/Fairy on your team, it seems like Lele is the only Tapu that Shiinotic can share a team with. Which isn't actually bad, as Lele looks incredibly powerful, but it does limit your team-building options.

I'm basing this concern off the idea that Shiinotic needs Spore to actually be valuable. As bluegrass pointed out above Strength Sap is amazing vs physical attackers and not that far off from being a 50% heal vs some special attackers, and STAB Giga Drain and Moonblast off of 90 base special give it some offensive presence, but I just don't think that's enough without Spore, and Spore might be much less reliable in this metagame.
 
Don't forget that Strength Sap includes boosts in the calculation, if Shiinotic were to use it on a mon with 200 Atk at +1, he'd get 300 HP back, but at -1 only 134 HP. This unfortunately means you'll have diminishing returns because Strength Sap lowers the opponents Atk stat. So for prolonged stalling you might need Moonlight.
Of course in doubles, you could pair it with a contrary pokemon for INCREASED returns to health.
 

UltiMario

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This thing is really just Parasect with a slightly better stat spread and typing in exchange for worse abilities.

Ultimately, Fairy typing is probably better than Dry Skin, but only barely. I'd be surprised if this thing was even NU. Really unfortunate that we got another Spore user that's really awful.
 
Dat face tho

Why does a Fairy type Pokemon look like one of the most horrifying things Gamefreak has ever created? Imagine this thing shows up in front of your face at night...

This thing will Spore you, Eat your Dreams while it Strength Saps your entire soul.
Well, it is clearly of the creepy kind of fairy.

Or an alien. The first thing I thought upon seeing its model is "It's a grey!".
 
I'm a simple man. I see Leech Seed, I like.

(Strength Sap is crazy, by the way.)

Strength Sap/Leech Seed/Moonblast/Spore FTW.
 
is swagger allowed in doubles? i could actually see a niche set with something fast that hits with swagger and then shiintoc hitting with strength sap. i doubt it would be that great, but it's still a niche duo that i could see being used.
 

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