Gen 3 Mixed Sub Pass Offense

[oliveroddish]

This is a spikeless mixed offense/hyper offense team I made that I feel is pretty strong. It has some immediately threatening special attackers and setup physical attackers. However, building "hyper offense" feels strange in gen 3, and I hesitate to try and emulate it (hence the appearance of some defensive mons on the team) since there's no consistent stupidly broken leads that just put you at an obvious advantage turn 1 like there are in modern tiers (alolan ninetales + veil, prankster dualscreens, glimmora staking multiple types of hazards, etc.). Basically, I'm not sure if it's worth/possible to lean harder into offense, since this team can lose some momentum into things like skarm, pert, and milo after switching in pert, for example.

Let me know what you think!

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The paste: Mixed Sub Pass Offense

Note: There's a bit of a theme with certain coverage moves on this team being up in the air, since one choice leaves me weak to one mon but stronger into another. I haven't found the right balance yet, so suggestions to that end are welcome.


The Team

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice] / [Grass]
- Substitute
- Baton Pass

Zap is the sub passer I'm most familiar with. It can scout early booms, and block status moves from over-predictions to get a free sub out the gate so that 1 of my setup sweepers can put on pressure as early as possible. It also scares out the occasional lead spikers like cloyster and skarm. Currently, it is HP Ice to trade with or punish stubborn mence leads that think I don't have it, and to help with flygon who walls my 2 physical sweepers. However, the team struggles a bit breaking pert w/o spikes, so I'm considering going grass.

Charizard @ Leftovers
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 24 Atk / 240 SpA / 244 Spe
Rash Nature
- Substitute
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Fire Blast
- Focus Punch

Zard contributes power on the special side while being able to directly punish blissey and bulky ttar that love to switch into it. Sub punch enables that punish, and grass is mandatory given the previously mentioned pert weakness. This set seems straight forward, but again any optimization suggestions welcome.

Tyranitar @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Bug] / Double Edge
- Dragon Dance

Win con #1, fast dd tar. Standard set and an obvious inclusion for this type of offense. Not as obvious is what the 3rd attacking move should be. Bug is the standard to hit claydol and celebi, but leaves me weaker into pert and flygon than double edge would.

Metagross @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Explosion / Rock Slide
- Agility

Win con #2, agigross. Running boom to let this force trades early game or just agi sweep late game. The rock slide sacrifice is felt, but not too heavily thanks to max speed ice zap and max speed dd tar. This also acts an emergency rock resist if swampert gets boomed on or worn down.

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 92 Atk / 128 Def / 40 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Roar / Focus Punch

Swampert acts as some defensive glue, making sure the team isn't run over by rocks if I trade with meta. It has some attack to always 2hko standard bulky meta and some speed to out-creep blissey. I like roar as an emergency answer to opposing setup sweepers, though I may just be bad and focus punch my be better to really punish bliss. This slot is really where it feels hard to make a hyper offense style that isn't just zapdug spoff, without a solid rock resist this team loses to aero spikes instantly. Hell, you could argue it still does without a fully def pert with no protect and no spin.

Regice @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Atk / 152 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Explosion
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Thunder Wave

Lastly we have the premier offensive special wall, Regice. This niche is pretty real, and it feels like it fits well despite being a defensive mon. Being able to blank starmie, zapdos, unboosted suicune, etc and threaten boom to keep momentum or positional advantage is great. I recently saw a regice run HP fire over twave, which I think works better for this team than the somewhat unnecessary twave, since chip on incoming meta is huge for tar to sweep at +1. Though that's kind of the only use case for it I can think of.

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So that's the squad. I'm working on practicing team building and this is the result of that. Thanks for reading, all suggestions are welcome.

- JoJ​

 

[mielke]

The squad looks really solid, i would only make some adjustments to increase the offensive pressure of the team.

0. Use max max zard with -def +speed nature, that's necessary imo.
1. Thunder wave>Substitute on zapdos; I feel like having twave here benefits you more in the midgame, the sub is fine but you dont get much use of it with the other teammate sets. Thunder wave is good to shutdown some common zap switches and offmie on the late game, and give zard a better time.
2. Mixed meta>Agility meta; the team is quite weak to spikes, and for me the current meta set doesnt really pressure skarm that well, if skarm enters on your meta you can only really pressure with a double switch to zard, and cant really be throwing mashes. Agility is good but with a ddtar on the team i dont think theres a need for another late game sweeper.
3. Make regice max spatck; that atck investment for bliss isnt really worthed on a team with other physical pressure, you rather hit harder with your moves.
4. Make the swampert more spatck invested; the same idea of mixmeta, you dont want skarm coming in for free on this mon, and having double rock resist is already enough to justify a less def oriented set.

I wouldnt say those changes are necessary, but it would feel like a more optimized team imo.

 

[williamcrae]

You've got the beginnings of a strong offense team here but it probably needs more refining. I'd recommend choosing either ddtar or agiligross as a win condition to build around and modifying the other to wallbreak for it with hp grass.

 

[oliveroddish]

You've got the beginnings of a strong offense team here but it probably needs more refining. I'd recommend choosing either ddtar or agiligross as a win condition to build around and modifying the other to wallbreak for it with hp grass.

hmm hp grass is pretty novel, I'll give it a thorough think, thanks

 

[oliveroddish]

The squad looks really solid, i would only make some adjustments to increase the offensive pressure of the team.

0. Use max max zard with -def +speed nature, that's necessary imo.
1. Thunder wave>Substitute on zapdos; I feel like having twave here benefits you more in the midgame, the sub is fine but you dont get much use of it with the other teammate sets. Thunder wave is good to shutdown some common zap switches and offmie on the late game, and give zard a better time.
2. Mixed meta>Agility meta; the team is quite weak to spikes, and for me the current meta set doesnt really pressure skarm that well, if skarm enters on your meta you can only really pressure with a double switch to zard, and cant really be throwing mashes. Agility is good but with a ddtar on the team i dont think theres a need for another late game sweeper.
3. Make regice max spatck; that atck investment for bliss isnt really worthed on a team with other physical pressure, you rather hit harder with your moves.
4. Make the swampert more spatck invested; the same idea of mixmeta, you dont want skarm coming in for free on this mon, and having double rock resist is already enough to justify a less def oriented set.

I wouldnt say those changes are necessary, but it would feel like a more optimized team imo.

 

[oliveroddish]

Yo thanks for giving it a look. I'll definitely try some if not all of the recs to help with skarm, cuz up until then I had just doubling zard, which can only take me so far.

For the mixed meta, I really have never used that set. Is it basically max spa/hp psy + hp fire + mash + boom?

 

[williamcrae]

hmm hp grass is pretty novel, I'll give it a thorough think, thanks

You can use hidden power grass from a physical sweeper such as dragon dance tyranitar or agility metagross to weaken swampert, which is a physical wall that can prevent either physical attacker from sweeping.

 

[oliveroddish]

You can use hidden power grass from a physical sweeper such as dragon dance tyranitar or agility metagross to weaken swampert, which is a physical wall that can prevent either physical attacker from sweeping.

are you sure that's worth it? It's hard to imagine such physically powerful mons stooping so low as to use a non-stab special move...

 

[mielke]

Yo thanks for giving it a look. I'll definitely try some if not all of the recs to help with skarm, cuz up until then I had just doubling zard, which can only take me so far.

For the mixed meta, I really have never used that set. Is it basically max spa/hp psy + hp fire + mash + boom?

i would use something like this

Metagross @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Quiet Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 30 SpA
- Thunder Punch
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Earthquake
- Explosion

 

[HatoTheWhite]

Why do they call you JoJ?

 

[oliveroddish]

Why do they call you JoJ?

I'll answer you with a question: have you ever tried saying "George" with a british accent?

 

[oliveroddish]

i would use something like this

Metagross @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Quiet Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 30 SpA
- Thunder Punch
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Earthquake
- Explosion

oh wow, I wasn't expecting the hp fire + thunderpunch combo. punch hits skarm harder, so I'm guessing fire is for opposing meta, since eq will be missed?

 

[mielke]

oh wow, I wasn't expecting the hp fire + thunderpunch combo. punch hits skarm harder, so I'm guessing fire is for opposing meta, since eq will be missed?

Mb it was a typo

 

[oliveroddish]

Mb it was a typo

I see, well try to be more careful abt that. Coverage moves are nothing to joke about if you're trying to win

 

[HatoTheWhite]

I'll answer you with a question: have you ever tried saying "George" with a british accent?

I have now, that was a grand old time. Thanks, chap.

 

[oliveroddish]

I have now, that was a grand old time. Thanks, chap.

Ofc, have yourself an fanfreakingtastic day old bean

 

[giraffefromholland]

Yo thanks for giving it a look. I'll definitely try some if not all of the recs to help with skarm, cuz up until then I had just doubling zard, which can only take me so far.

For the mixed meta, I really have never used that set. Is it basically max spa/hp psy + hp fire + mash + boom?

i would use something like this

Metagross @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Quiet Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 30 SpA
- Thunder Punch
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Earthquake
- Explosion

I think this change works extremely well on this team, but also Mash Fire Psychic. Speed pass to a Mash-using Metagross feels stronger, but just changing it so Meta wins vs Skarm is good value. I agree with everyone here. This team is close to optimized

 

[oliveroddish]

I think this change works extremely well on this team, but also Mash Fire Psychic. Speed pass to a Mash-using Metagross feels stronger, but just changing it so Meta wins vs Skarm is good value. I agree with everyone here. This team is close to optimized

I think a combination of the 2 would be perfect. grass is really welcome to stick it to pert, but max spa psy hits it hard too. I'm thinking t-punch + grass/psy + mash, which only misses out on hitting opposing meta. And I don't think the team is meta weak at all with a pert + zard + zap

 

[vapicuno]

Hello, nice team.

Apart from the already recommended TWave Zapdos and sp.atk on Swampert, consider also using Curse > Roar for more immediate pressure vs Blissey and defensive Starmie.

Unlike the others I agree with Agility Metagross (and would even go so far as to suggest Rock Slide > Explosion), but if you do that then the Tyranitar should be a breaker set. I would actually go for something like Earthquake/Focus Punch/Ice Beam/HP Grass but that's not very beginner friendly. Maybe use a bulky Double-Edge DDTar instead.

You will always be a bit weak against Milotic with this build. Some people would use Crocune > Pert there but it doesn't exactly help if you face CMbliss too without significant modifications.

 

[oliveroddish]

Hello, nice team.

Apart from the already recommended TWave Zapdos and sp.atk on Swampert, consider also using Curse > Roar for more immediate pressure vs Blissey and defensive Starmie.

Unlike the others I agree with Agility Metagross (and would even go so far as to suggest Rock Slide > Explosion), but if you do that then the Tyranitar should be a breaker set. I would actually go for something like Earthquake/Focus Punch/Ice Beam/HP Grass but that's not very beginner friendly. Maybe use a bulky Double-Edge DDTar instead.

You will always be a bit weak against Milotic with this build. Some people would use Crocune > Pert there but it doesn't exactly help if you face CMbliss too without significant modifications.

thanks for giving it a look! Curse swampert sounds cool. To clarify, are you recommending that if I'm using agiligross at all I should try that breaker ttar set along side it, or if I'm using specifically slide agiligross you'd recommend the breaker set?

 

[vapicuno]

I'm using specifically slide agiligross you'd recommend the breaker set

welcome! more of this

 

[oliveroddish]

welcome! more of this

cool, that tar set is interesting, I'll give it a try. If it's not making sense I can always see how dd edge tar does