M&M Mix and Mega

We need to suspect Zap Cannon.
With 100% Accuracy, 120 BP and 100% chance of paralysis, it's too powerful and uncompetitive. You just have to wait for paralysis to do its job and you can win by being untouched because of paralysis
And PDon is a check, but if it's the only check to Zap Cannon of the meta, it's not very healthly

252+ SpA Deoxys-Speed Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon: 226-267 (55.9 - 66%)
so 68-78 % after rocks
Man, you just have to weaken PDon a bit and it's over (and it's not very hard, you just have to Toxic him with any Blue Orb user on the switch, Golisopod for example)

252 Atk Aerilate Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 175-207 (72.6 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Genesect can't revenge kill even if Deoxys isn't invested and, of course, Genesect is OHKOed by Zap Cannon

Deoxys-S wins its 1v1 against Blissey with paralysis + Focus Blast
252+ SpA Deoxys-Speed Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 170-200 (26.1 - 30.7%) -- 19.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Blissey can use Soft-Boiled, then Seismic Toss for a 3HKO, but if he's paralysed, no :)

+3 252+ SpA Xurkitree Zap Cannon vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 433-511 (66.5 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
lol


Zap Cannon isn't only a hard-hitting move, it's also [CENSORED] with its 100% Paralysis. Prepare to Die (i'll say nothing about dynamic punch + zap cannon deoxys)
banning the stone helps
 
I forgot to mention that Thunder only have 10 BP less than Zap Cannon, so Electric-types will not die (yeah, i copy/pasted my edit)
A suspect test will let players decide if Zap Cannon should be banned, it can be only beneficial for Mix&Mega
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
So... Marshadow.



Marshadow @ Metagrossite / Lucarionite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Close Combat / Drain Punch
- Ice Punch / Bulk Up

P much like Kartana or Terrakion I guess. Any other ideas about how to use this guy?
 
Marshadow @ Pidgeotite - Fighting/Ghost | No Guard | 90/125/85/155/100/145 (700 BST) | Low Kick/Grass Knot: 60 BP (33.2 kg)


Marshadow @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball

Maybe its worth a look? It will be able to set up on passive Pokemon like Blissey or nail anything expecting to take damage from one of its physical attacks.
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
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Marshadow @ Banettite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
- Bulk Up
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Copycat

Not my set, but it may work. The idea is to eliminate all Ate-Speeders / Weavile and then attack once, Copycat then attack, and just go to town. 'm not sure about the evs or nature, I minimized speed so you'd go last so you could spam your move rather than someone else's.
 
Now Marshadow has just been reliesed and even tho it wont survive many hits it makes up for that with being fast and strong

Marshadow @ Metagrossite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
- Spectral Thief
- Any Random Coverage

Some calcs

252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Sablenite Blissey: 564-666 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Refrigerate Weavile Frustration vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 232-274 (72.2 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Groudon: 184-217 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

MattL

I have discovered a truly remarkable CT which this box is t-
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Grass / Fighting: 59 / 241 / 141 / 59 / 31 / 139

Kartana @ Lopunnite
Ability: Beast Boost (-> Scrappy)
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Psycho Cut

no

And by "no" I don't mean "help us all," I actually mean, no, this probably won't be as good as it looks, unfortunately. Kartana might be the initial Gen 7 mon you'd think to slap Lopunnite on for obvious reasons, but unfortunately it's still shut down by Zapdos, and outsped and OHKOd by mons like Absolite Manaphy and Glalitite Weavile. It also doesn't 2HKO Pdon despite 241 base Attack (which I know isn't easy, but still).

The other two Gen 7 mons that could viably use Lopunnite are Tapu Bulu and Buzzwole. SD dual stab Stone Edge Tapu Bulu is a menacing wallbreaker and provides Grassy Terrain support before you evolve it, and Buzzwole is in a similar boat. However, I don't think either of these are going to end up being meta staples. They're still pretty slow and their best Fighting stab lowers their Attack. Although they are pretty bulky on the physical side, the unfortunate side effect of Lopunnite is an additional weakness to Flying-speed (and Fairy, when Altarianite drops). Lopunnite Marshadow is good, but Lucarionite Marshadow is better so that's irrelevant.

Looking bleak in terms of new Gardevoirite users. The main problem is that it doesn't add Fairy type (so no, Gardevoirite Swellow or Flygon are both bad since neither of them are Fairy type), so I really don't think there are any viable Gen 7 users of it. Primarina is the only possible thing but it's not much stronger than Sylveon and still pretty slow and physically frail, so I wouldn't even consider that a viable option.

And Galladite is mostly inferior to other options. So basically, Lopunnite Kartana and Tapu Bulu are likely viable options, but not amazing.
 
Last edited:
Metagross @ Pinsirite
Ability: Clear Body
Happiness: 0
EVs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Explosion
- Frustration
- Earthquake
- Rock Polish

EVs are not optimized, but it is faster than positive base 200 at +2. Metagross never had time to shine because it was overshadowed by Pinsirite Cobalion last gen. Rock polish plus good defensive typing kills most offensive teams and explosion breaks defensive cores.

Calculations:
252+ Atk Aerilate Metagross Explosion vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Ground: 411-484 (92.5 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Metagross Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 273-322 (113.2 - 133.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Pidgeotite)
252+ Atk Aerilate Metagross Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 187-221 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO (Sablenite)

Replays:
death on wings http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-598928077
LdlLdlLdl http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-598932428
rbllohia http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-598887818
 
Last edited:
Metagross @ Pinsirite
Ability: Clear Body
Happiness: 0
EVs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Explosion
- Frustration
- Earthquake
- Rock Polish

EVs are not optimized, but it is faster than positive base 200 at +2. Metagross never had time to shine because it was overshadowed by Pinsirite Cobalion last gen. Rock polish plus good defensive typing kills most offensive teams and explosion breaks defensive cores.

Calculations:
252+ Atk Aerilate Metagross Explosion vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Ground: 411-484 (92.5 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Metagross Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 273-322 (113.2 - 133.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Pidgeotite)
252+ Atk Aerilate Metagross Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 187-221 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO (Sablenite)

Replays:
death on wings http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-598928077
LdlLdlLdl http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-598932428
rbllohia http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-598887818
Landorus-T arguably works better for this set, as it gets all of the moves in this set, except it has a pre-mega intimidate, better speed(meaning less investment required) and gets STAB on Earthquake. Alternatively, you can forgo Explosion and run Swords Dance for a decent cleaner, or run U-Turn over Rock Polish for a hard hitting pivot that goes out with a bang(pun intended, I'm not sorry).
 
Landorus-T arguably works better for this set, as it gets all of the moves in this set, except it has a pre-mega intimidate, better speed(meaning less investment required) and gets STAB on Earthquake. Alternatively, you can forgo Explosion and run Swords Dance for a decent cleaner, or run U-Turn over Rock Polish for a hard hitting pivot that goes out with a bang(pun intended, I'm not sorry).
Rock Polish Landorous-T is not that good because it gets revenge killed by every -ate sweeper. It mostly serves as a wall breaker that can sponge a few hits forgoing Rock Polish for Swords Dance.

Metagross' crux is being able to outpace every offensive threat after Rock Polish, being resilient to threats like Weavile which Landorous-T fails to do, and breaking defensive cores with explosion which Cobalion fails to do.
 
Metagross @ Pinsirite
Ability: Clear Body
Happiness: 0
EVs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Explosion
- Frustration
- Earthquake
- Rock Polish

EVs are not optimized, but it is faster than positive base 200 at +2. Metagross never had time to shine because it was overshadowed by Pinsirite Cobalion last gen. Rock polish plus good defensive typing kills most offensive teams and explosion breaks defensive cores.

Calculations:
252+ Atk Aerilate Metagross Explosion vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Ground: 411-484 (92.5 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Metagross Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 273-322 (113.2 - 133.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Pidgeotite)
252+ Atk Aerilate Metagross Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 187-221 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO (Sablenite)

Replays:
death on wings http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-598928077
LdlLdlLdl http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-598932428
rbllohia http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-598887818
yeah, I actually started fooling around with Pinsirite Metagross after that. Although the team in that replay was garbage used by me, that doesn't lower the viability of Metagross.
 
Grass / Fighting: 59 / 241 / 141 / 59 / 31 / 139

Kartana @ Lopunnite
Ability: Beast Boost (-> Scrappy)
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Psycho Cut

no

And by "no" I don't mean "help us all," I actually mean, no, this probably won't be as good as it looks, unfortunately. Kartana might be the initial Gen 7 mon you'd think to slap Lopunnite on for obvious reasons, but unfortunately it's still shut down by Zapdos, and outsped and OHKOd by mons like Absolite Manaphy and Glalitite Weavile. It also doesn't 2HKO Pdon despite 241 base Attack (which I know isn't easy, but still).

The other two Gen 7 mons that could viably use Lopunnite are Tapu Bulu and Buzzwole. SD dual stab Stone Edge Tapu Bulu is a menacing wallbreaker and provides Grassy Terrain support before you evolve it, and Buzzwole is in a similar boat. However, I don't think either of these are going to end up being meta staples. They're still pretty slow and their best Fighting stab lowers their Attack. Although they are pretty bulky on the physical side, the unfortunate side effect of Lopunnite is an additional weakness to Flying-speed (and Fairy, when Altarianite drops). Lopunnite Marshadow is good, but Lucarionite Marshadow is better so that's irrelevant.

Looking bleak in terms of new Gardevoirite users. The main problem is that it doesn't add Fairy type (so no, Gardevoirite Swellow or Flygon are both bad since neither of them are Fairy type), so I really don't think there are any viable Gen 7 users of it. Primarina is the only possible thing but it's not much stronger than Sylveon and still pretty slow and physically frail, so I wouldn't even consider that a viable option.

And Galladite is mostly inferior to other options. So basically, Lopunnite Kartana and Tapu Bulu are likely viable options, but not amazing.
If you want fighting kartana a better option would be mewtwo X's mega stone which gives more power which is helpful without swords dance and you can run return, sword, and slash for perfect coverage leaf blade if you get the chance
 
I know I am not bringing much to the table but I thought I would mention it


Marshadow @ Lucarionite
Ability: Technician (->Adaptability)
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Bulk Up/Swagger/Work up/Coverage move

swagger if you are thinking of breaking walls that don't attack physically, blissey is one cause its ether special or uses Toss but it would be best to predict it coverage move would depend on what your team needs as marshadows typing allows for totally perfection coverage regardless of the stone, ability, or pokemon the only typing that resists its duel stab is Normal,Ghost which does not exist at the current moment and no pokemon gains the ghost or normal typing when it mega evolves
Bulk up is better to use over work up unless you wanna be weird and run scizorite and hp ice or something
 
If you want fighting kartana a better option would be mewtwo X's mega stone which gives more power which is helpful without swords dance and you can run return, sword, and slash for perfect coverage leaf blade if you get the chance
Lopunnite is far superior to Mewtwonite X, because it is actually fast; metagrossite is still better, but its less so than for MMXite.
I know I am not bringing much to the table but I thought I would mention it


Marshadow @ Lucarionite
Ability: Technician (->Adaptability)
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Bulk Up/Swagger/Work up/Coverage move

swagger if you are thinking of breaking walls that don't attack physically, blissey is one cause its ether special or uses Toss but it would be best to predict it coverage move would depend on what your team needs as marshadows typing allows for totally perfection coverage regardless of the stone, ability, or pokemon the only typing that resists its duel stab is Normal,Ghost which does not exist at the current moment and no pokemon gains the ghost or normal typing when it mega evolves
Bulk up is better to use over work up unless you wanna be weird and run scizorite and hp ice or something
Work up and coverage are mostly useless; the only coverage you would ever want is ice punch, while work up is pretty much an inferior bulk up, and scizorite is bad, not this set, and would require you to drop stabs or priority in order to have work up hp ice. Also please dont use adamant, you and everyone else really.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
OK so now that Marshadow has been banned can we do something about Zap Cannon? It is borderline overpowered on deo-s with its blazing speed and ability to take some priority hits, and it is 1000000% uncompetitive. That to me needs to be dealt with ASAP, I have been abusing it on ladder as have 2 friends of mine and we all hit 1500+ within 50 games
 

Chloe

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NUPL Champion
OK so now that Marshadow has been banned can we do something about Zap Cannon? It is borderline overpowered on deo-s with its blazing speed and ability to take some priority hits, and it is 1000000% uncompetitive. That to me needs to be dealt with ASAP, I have been abusing it on ladder as have 2 friends of mine and we all hit 1500+ within 50 games
Marshadow hasn't been banned, this was an error on the server. It should be fixed soon. Zap Cannon is nowhere near the level of viable you're describing and is not "one million percent" uncompetitive. It allows Deo-S/Xurkitree to have stronger coverage/stab when the latter almost always prefers utilising Hypnosis first. It does not need dealing with as it is not broken, nor does it require a suspect test as there would be more pounding issues before this. It took you 50 games to hit 1500?!?
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Marshadow hasn't been banned, this was an error on the server. It should be fixed soon. Zap Cannon is nowhere near the level of viable you're describing and is not "one million percent" uncompetitive. It allows Deo-S/Xurkitree to have stronger coverage/stab when the latter almost always prefers utilising Hypnosis first. It does not need dealing with as it is not broken, nor does it require a suspect test as there would be more pounding issues before this. It took you 50 games to hit 1500?!?
First i didnt know it was a mistake, and thats ok as marshadow is good but has counters
second it is uncompetitive. do you know what that word means? you can't play around it unless you have a ground type that none of the coverage moves hits ( i mean primal groudon is insane but thats another issue). im not saying they are broken but they are uncompetitive and/or unhealthy, whatever that word means
and no it did not take me 50 games, i went like 22-3 but it was their first time ever playing the tier, and one of them literally used a team with zap cannon dynamic punch mew and zap cannon dpunch deo d. basically a meme team and it still won because it is so bullshit. unless you run golurk you cant counter zap cannon dpunch combo. uncompetitive, not necessarily broken.
 
First i didnt know it was a mistake, and thats ok as marshadow is good but has counters
second it is uncompetitive. do you know what that word means? you can't play around it unless you have a ground type that none of the coverage moves hits ( i mean primal groudon is insane but thats another issue). im not saying they are broken but they are uncompetitive and/or unhealthy, whatever that word means
and no it did not take me 50 games, i went like 22-3 but it was their first time ever playing the tier, and one of them literally used a team with zap cannon dynamic punch mew and zap cannon dpunch deo d. basically a meme team and it still won because it is so bullshit. unless you run golurk you cant counter zap cannon dpunch combo. uncompetitive, not necessarily broken.
You're severely overestimating both the uncounterability and the general utility of both moves. In addition to being readily answered by staple pokemon such as Zapdos, the combination isnt particularly effective; Dynamic Punch is exceedingly weak and unreliable on both users, both of which have far better options. Zap Cannon has at least the claim of being a decent move, but Mew is bad, Xurkitree is slow and reliant on Hypnosis, and Deoxys-S is both weak and frail. In general, it is, for the most part, less uncompetative than flinch moves such as Iron Head and Air Slash, and is held back by the identical problem of a lack of good users. If it had better distribution, such as Tapu Koko or Thundurus, things might be different, but as is it is nowhere near the issue you suggest, particularly at high level play.
 

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