M&M Mix and Mega

Manectite seems great with physical walls. I remember Manectite Zapdos from 6G

Zapdos @ Manectite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch / U-Turn
- Heat Wave / Toxic
- Roost
- Defog / Toxic if you already have a defogger
 
Buzzwole @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leech Life
- Thunder Punch
- Power-Up Punch
- Poison Jab

Buzzwole has a high attack as it is. Mixing it with Mega Aerodactyl changes its base stats to 169 Attack, 159 Defense, 63 Sp. Attack, 73 Sp. Defense, 99 Speed. With this set of stats, Buzzwole will now be able to outspeed alot more pokemon and will be more bulky. Buzzwole has a wide movepool with many contact moves to abuse the Tough Claws ability.
 
Buzzwole @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leech Life
- Thunder Punch
- Power-Up Punch
- Poison Jab

Buzzwole has a high attack as it is. Mixing it with Mega Aerodactyl changes its base stats to 169 Attack, 159 Defense, 63 Sp. Attack, 73 Sp. Defense, 99 Speed. With this set of stats, Buzzwole will now be able to outspeed alot more pokemon and will be more bulky. Buzzwole has a wide movepool with many contact moves to abuse the Tough Claws ability.
Buzzwole can run an okay all out attacking set, but if I were you I would run Metagrossite in order to make up for the relatively slow 99 speed with a more comfortable 119 speed which allows it to outspeed threats such as Red Orb Raikou, Lucarionite Hoopa-Unbound or Lucarionite Tapu Lele. It doesn't really need the extra 20 attack points since it has, as you already mentioned, a decent enough attack stat as is and would much rather appreciate the speed instead. I would also suggest some changes in your moveset, swapping Power-Up Punch for Superpower which gives you a stronger STAB than Leech Life and to break through steels immediately rather than after three or more PuPs. I also would recommend Stone Edge over Thunder Punch since its only niche would be hitting Skarmory which isn't even 2hkod and takes more from a Superpower without any stat drops. Stone Edge hits Ho-oh and Zapdos which otherwise hardwall Buzzwole and don't take enough from Thunder Punch.

A different set that I have been experimenting with on Buzzwole has more of a defensive focus.

Buzzwole @ Venusaurite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 204 HP / 200 Atk / 104 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Superpower
- Leech Life
- Roost

This set allows you to take on Weavile, Kartana, Zygarde Complete and Blissey with relative ease and without much worry. Venusaurite gives Buzzwole a stat spread of 107/157/179/75/73/79 which gives it the physical bulk to take on the aforementioned threats and things like +2 Lucarionite Terrakion's Stone Edge or +2 Metagrossite Garchomp's Outrage in an emergency if it is at full. Venusaurite was chosen over Sablenite in order to be able to take on both Weavile and Kartana in the same game much more comfortably while also gaining a resist and becoming neutral to fire type moves. The above spread allows you to create at least 5 101 hp substitutes that can't be broken by Seismic Toss while also speed creeping uninvested Pdon or Standard Ho-oh in order to possibly rack up posion damage or Brave Bird recoil in an absolute emergency. Substitute puts bulkier teams or mons that rely on status into a poor position that you can take advantage of and maybe open up the hole in your opponent's team that you need to win. Superpower is the high bp STAB that OHKOs the mons it is supposed to beat bar Garchomp, Zygarde-complete and Blissey but the latter two are walled completely. Leech Life is the secondary STAB that gives you some offensive presence while not having to deal with the stat drops and having some minor recovery at the same time. Roost gives you longevity, more chip turns and more substitutes which comes in super handy if you are playing against slower, bulkier teams which is what this Buzzwole is designed to combat. Overall Buzzwole is no stallkiller nor is it a top tier mon, but it does have a niche which it fulfills excellently. I recommend that you try it out if you are looking for something to check the mons I mentioned earlier.
 
I'll have to disagree with Mewtonite Y Decidueye.
"Insomnia : Viable ability", the only thing you really get with Insomnia is immunity to Spore, which is already covered by the Grass typing...

EDIT : yeah i guess you also donk Pidgeottite Sing
 
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I'll have to disagree with Mewtonite Y Decidueye.
"Insomnia : Viable ability", the only thing you really get with Insomnia is immunity to Spore, which is already covered by the Grass typing...

EDIT : yeah i guess you also donk Pidgeottite Sing
Also Pidgeottite Hypnosis
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
Also Pidgeottite Hypnosis
Yeah but Decidueye is weak to Gengar's Ghost STAB, which is probably gonna show itself as the main Pidgeotite sleep user now that Skymin is gone. In general, Mewtwonite Y is mediocre (drops defence, not much speed, VERY situational ability, generally outclassed by Absolite for special attackers [also Magic Bounce achieves the same purpose by bouncing back sleep moves]), and Decidueye is bad as well (not very fast, strong, or bulky, mediocre typing leaves it weak to common stuff like Ghostceus, Aerilate users, PDon, etc.).

No offense intended as it's nice that people like to create resources like this, but a lot of the Pokemon on this list really aren't that's good (Meganium, Kingler, Stoutland, Rotom-Frost just to name a few) and some of the stones aren't really useful either (e.g. Absolite Gallade, just use Metagrossite or Lucarionite, Mewtwonite X isn't Kartana's best stone as it prefers Metagrossite, Red Orb Nihilego still has a 4x Ground weakness and it prefers other stones anyway, Volcarona prefers Red Orb for the sheer power all the time [same special attack but charizardite y's sun can't override opposing primal weather and goes away when tyranitarite/abomasite mons or kyogre switch in], etc.). The council and some other users are currently working on completing the Set Viability Rankings resource, which will rank every good set of every relevant Pokemon in order of viability, so stay tuned for that!
 
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2017-05/gen7mixandmega-1760.txt (Basic stats for main ladder)
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2017-05/moveset/gen7mixandmega-1760.txt (Moveset data for main ladder)
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2017-05/metagame/gen7mixandmega-1760.txt (Team information for main ladder)

We are officially BACK with the usage stats!
Why do I feel like I'm partially the reason Hydreigon is 75 and Absolite is number one for the stones it uses?... Idk why I just felt like saying that.
 
Does anybody think that Zap Cannon should be banned?
Debatable. I think it's super strong because Pidgeotite users (Deoxys-S, Zapdos, with the occasional Raikou and Xurkitree, don't even get me started on Xurkitree) can make it quite spammable, and it's an instant cripple to any Pokemon that has to rely on its speed to beat another Pokemon in the tier, you can wall it with Blissey and Soft-Boiled heal it off until they run out of PP or switch, or switch into a Ground type like Zygarde, Groudon and the likes.

But there are weaknesses that Zap Cannon spammers have, and they're pretty prominent in the Meta.

I used to think it was worthy of a ban, but I later found out there's immense ways to just eat it up, so I don't think it's much of an issue as everyone used to make it out to be.
 
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Yeah, Deoxys-S/Xurkitree using Zap Cannon are what makes me think that it should be banned. Against Deo-S, you have to switch-ins except Groudon, Zygarde (hoping it doesn't run Ice Beam), Blissey (which can be broken through with Nasty Ploy and Focus Blast), Zapdos, or some really bulky mons like Giratina and Cresselia (but if they're too passive then they can be set up on with Nasty Plot). You have to be really cautious when switching in an offensive check because they could get severely crippled. For Xurkitree, you have to switch in a Ground or Electric type mon, OR you could switch in a faster offensive mon (with a great prediction). Blissey doesn't really stop it cause of Tail Glow, and Groudon could get put to sleep with Hypnosis.

Zap Cannon just seems so unnecessary to me. Every mon that gets it also gets Thunder. Thunder is 10 points weaker and is 70% less likely to paralyze. Zap Cannon was given 50% accuracy to be balanced, but Pidgeotite fucks that up.

Even though the Zap Cannon + Dynamic Punch combo isn't prominent in gen 7 mnm, because of the hitting yourself in confusion nerf of 50% → 33%, I still think it could be a slight problem. I actually haven't seen it myself, but I did see thesecondbest's comment on it, so I want to give it a try. I'm gonna try out Pidgeotite Deoxys-Defense with Zap Cannon/Dynamic Punch/Psycho Shift/Recover. I have 2 accounts in the top 10 ladder of mnm, so hopefully I can make a splash with this set.
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
Yeah, Deoxys-S/Xurkitree using Zap Cannon are what makes me think that it should be banned. Against Deo-S, you have to switch-ins except Groudon, Zygarde (hoping it doesn't run Ice Beam), Blissey (which can be broken through with Nasty Ploy and Focus Blast), Zapdos, or some really bulky mons like Giratina and Cresselia (but if they're too passive then they can be set up on with Nasty Plot). You have to be really cautious when switching in an offensive check because they could get severely crippled. For Xurkitree, you have to switch in a Ground or Electric type mon, OR you could switch in a faster offensive mon (with a great prediction). Blissey doesn't really stop it cause of Tail Glow, and Groudon could get put to sleep with Hypnosis.

Zap Cannon just seems so unnecessary to me. Every mon that gets it also gets Thunder. Thunder is 10 points weaker and is 70% less likely to paralyze. Zap Cannon was given 50% accuracy to be balanced, but Pidgeotite fucks that up.

Even though the Zap Cannon + Dynamic Punch combo isn't prominent in gen 7 mnm, because of the hitting yourself in confusion nerf of 50% → 33%, I still think it could be a slight problem. I actually haven't seen it myself, but I did see thesecondbest's comment on it, so I want to give it a try. I'm gonna try out Pidgeotite Deoxys-Defense with Zap Cannon/Dynamic Punch/Psycho Shift/Recover. I have 2 accounts in the top 10 ladder of mnm, so hopefully I can make a splash with this set.
You forget about [insertmonhere] running Sceptilite, which is completely immune to Zap Cannon. Jirachi is a good choice, as it isn't weak to common Ice or Fairy coverage from Zap Cannon mons, even with the added dragon coverage.

To be frank I don't see what the problem with Zap Cannon is from your argument but rather with the excellent coverage certain Pidgeotite mons have. Also I don't believe you should be looking at 'walling a move' when you try to get a move banned, but rather look at common users of the move to see if they are broken. I personally have not heard any complaints about Xurkitree or Deoxys-Speed (before this) or Mew and Pidgeotite Genesect is generally considered the inferior set. In my personal experience I have found them rather easy to deal with.

Xurkitree: Except for the perfect accuracy sleep, which you (read, I, because I suck) generally have to fodder off to sleep clause, Xurkitree cannot kill SpD Pdon, while Pdon slaughters it back.

+3 252+ SpA Xurkitree Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 333-392 (82.6 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (note that Modest is probably not the best nature)
0 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 542-642 (176.5 - 209.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (keep in mind No Guard makes P Blades never miss)

I'm tempted to say that nothing that's walled by Pdon is going to be easily banworthy.

Deoxys-Speed:

So I asked in the om room what speed to run and they said max speed for Pidg Xurk on webs and Geoxern so that's what I'm calcing it with.
0 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 226-267 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Deoxys-Speed Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 119-140 (29.5 - 34.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Another win for Pdon... even with Nasty Plot, that doesn't turn into a OHKO.

Your set doesn't seem to include a Psychic STAB? I'm actually kinda confused as to what the set you're talking about is. I went with Nasty Plot / Zap Cannon / Ice Beam / Focus Blast. Without Focus Blast Blissey walls, and Pdon deals with it no matter what, unless it has Psychic AND Psychic Terrain is down on the field.

Genesect:

Better off doing -Ate shenanigans, I can calc if you like.

Mew:
Mew does basically the same thing as Deo-S but with a better movepool and 5 higher SpA but much lower speed. I can calc it too with whatever moves you like, but Pdon walls.

Thunder being a weaker replacement is completely irrelevant as a competitive argument.

Basically what I think your point boils down to is not Zap Cannon being broken on its own but Pidgeotite allowing multiple somewhat broken moves to work, most importantly sleep. I'm neither the best nor the stalliest of Mix and Mega players, but I don't believe that if there is a problem here that it is Zap Cannon. I suggest that you look at either Pidgeotite sleep, Pidgeotite itself, or the abusers of the move, because most mons that get of Zap Cannon are perfectly balanced, if annoying.

Also:
[10:47:31] #Chloe:Pidgeotite will not be banned
[10:47:37] #Chloe:Zap Cannon will not be banned
 
I gotta side with Chloe. on Pidgeotite here.

I'm not an active Mix and Mega player at the moment so take my input with a grain of salt, but I'm going to go at this purely from the perspective of an ex-Mix and Mega leader. There is an argument to made for Pidgeotite being a broken stone. No guard is a nifty ability that can make strategies like accurate sleep and Zap/Inferno etc viable and to a degree, they're both uncompetitive. However, there is a reason that in generation 6 we opted for banning the moves and abusers, Shaymin-Sky and Darkrai, instead of Pidgeotite. The reason for this decision was that mega stones are simply too valuable in the metagame to ban over a handful of abusers. With only a couple dozen mega stones banning one will harm the metagame more than banning Zap Cannon/Darkrai/Shaymin-Sky. Even combined the impact of removing Zap Cannon/Darkrai/Shaymin-Sky is not nearly as impactful as removing Pidgeotite would be. Thundurus, Gengar, Keldeo, Tornadus, Victini would lose their foothold in the metagame and that's only the abusers. Other Pokemon are viable simply because they're effective counterplay too Pidgeotite. Pidgeotite is an important stone, it shouldn't be banned.

In my mind Mega stones are so valuable that to truly be broken they have to break dozens of Pokemon. Mawilite, Medichamite, Kangaskhanite, Beedrilite and Gengarite fit that description. They're so broken that to make them even slightly manageable we would have to ban 50+ Pokemon. And you know what? No other stones even come close of these five. I purposefully left of Blazikenite because I don't want to derail the discussion. In short, I don't think Blazikenite was handled well and I've discussed it with Chloe and the OM room extensively. The point is that Pidgeotite does not break 50+ Pokemon. Does anyone here truly believe Pidgeotite is on the same level as those five?

Cherish the few mega stones we have, even if it is at the cost of a couple of Zap Cannon.

- Grains of Salt
 
You forget about [insertmonhere] running Sceptilite, which is completely immune to Zap Cannon. Jirachi is a good choice, as it isn't weak to common Ice or Fairy coverage from Zap Cannon mons, even with the added dragon coverage.

To be frank I don't see what the problem with Zap Cannon is from your argument but rather with the excellent coverage certain Pidgeotite mons have. Also I don't believe you should be looking at 'walling a move' when you try to get a move banned, but rather look at common users of the move to see if they are broken. I personally have not heard any complaints about Xurkitree or Deoxys-Speed (before this) or Mew and Pidgeotite Genesect is generally considered the inferior set. In my personal experience I have found them rather easy to deal with.

Xurkitree: Except for the perfect accuracy sleep, which you (read, I, because I suck) generally have to fodder off to sleep clause, Xurkitree cannot kill SpD Pdon, while Pdon slaughters it back.

+3 252+ SpA Xurkitree Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 333-392 (82.6 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (note that Modest is probably not the best nature)
0 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 542-642 (176.5 - 209.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (keep in mind No Guard makes P Blades never miss)

I'm tempted to say that nothing that's walled by Pdon is going to be easily banworthy.

Deoxys-Speed:

So I asked in the om room what speed to run and they said max speed for Pidg Xurk on webs and Geoxern so that's what I'm calcing it with.
0 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 226-267 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Deoxys-Speed Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 119-140 (29.5 - 34.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Another win for Pdon... even with Nasty Plot, that doesn't turn into a OHKO.

Your set doesn't seem to include a Psychic STAB? I'm actually kinda confused as to what the set you're talking about is. I went with Nasty Plot / Zap Cannon / Ice Beam / Focus Blast. Without Focus Blast Blissey walls, and Pdon deals with it no matter what, unless it has Psychic AND Psychic Terrain is down on the field.

Genesect:

Better off doing -Ate shenanigans, I can calc if you like.

Mew:
Mew does basically the same thing as Deo-S but with a better movepool and 5 higher SpA but much lower speed. I can calc it too with whatever moves you like, but Pdon walls.

Thunder being a weaker replacement is completely irrelevant as a competitive argument.

Basically what I think your point boils down to is not Zap Cannon being broken on its own but Pidgeotite allowing multiple somewhat broken moves to work, most importantly sleep. I'm neither the best nor the stalliest of Mix and Mega players, but I don't believe that if there is a problem here that it is Zap Cannon. I suggest that you look at either Pidgeotite sleep, Pidgeotite itself, or the abusers of the move, because most mons that get of Zap Cannon are perfectly balanced, if annoying.

Also:
[10:47:31] #Chloe:Pidgeotite will not be banned
[10:47:37] #Chloe:Zap Cannon will not be banned
I don't think that Groudon should be the only reason that something isn't banworthy. +3 Xurk can still break past max hp/spdef groudon with Grass Knot over Energy Ball. Here's the calc:
+3 252+ SpA Xurkitree Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 443-522 (109.6 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And here it is in a recent match against my stall team: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-594352866
If for one reason or another, the Xurkitree user wants to run Energy Ball over Grass Knot, then to beat Groudon, they can run HP Ground on Xurkitree.

In this case, I'd personally say that Xurkitree isn't the problem. Zap Cannon makes it so that Groundon and other ground or electric are the only safe switch-ins. They can't be paralyzed. And because of the 100% chance to be paralyzed, it isn't safe to throw in an offensive mon to beat to it. You can't throw in Mimikyu, Xerneas, Arceus-Ghost, Lunala, or Tapu Lele. At full HP, those mons would live a 252+ spa Zap Cannon from Pidgeotite Xurkitree. And even if the Xurkitree isn't 252+ spa, then those mons still wouldn't be able to switch in safely because after paralysis, they're outsped and die to another Zap Cannon.

Pidgeotite Xurkitree is comparable to Blastoisinite Hoopa-U last gen. In gen 6 MnM, Blastoisinite Hoopa-U had no common defensive checks/counters. The relevant checks to it were Mandibuzz, Togekiss, Yveltal, and Gyaradosite Crobat. Those were not very common, especially Yveltal and Crobat. But there were a handful of common offensive mons that you could switch in to it like Weavile, Terrakion, Keldeo, Xerneas, and a bunch of Altarianite mons. Dark Pulse from Blastoisinite Hoopa-U didn't cripple mons that switched into it, it just did a lot of damage to them. Pidgeotite Xurkitree's Zap Cannon outdamages that AND it cripples anything that isn't ground, electric, or immune to electric. What can switch in on a Pidgeotite Xurkitree that is prepared for a Tail Glow or a Zap Cannon? Raikou, Zapdos (can't be Sablenite), Arceus-(Ground/Electic), Landorus, Zygarde (non-Pinsirite or one that hasn't mega'd yet), Sceptilite Manaphy/Jirachi (that have already mega'd), and Shedinja. I cant think of anymore. Switch a Xurkitree in on a Skarmory, Mandibuzz, Vaporeon, a weakened wall (Sablenite Blissey below 27%), or a mon that it naturally outspeeds, and then you have a major advantage.

Pidgeotite Deoxys-S with Zap Cannon isn't really broken I'd say. It does have a small amount of safe switchins, but it's bearable. It's best set is this: Psycho Boost + Focus Blast + Zap Cannon + Nasty Plot.
 
Well, this ought to shake up the meta QUITE nicely. Banettite is good for Stall and Offense, and Cameruptite gives some life to Bulky Offense.
 
I know this won't happen but it's still something I like thinking about.

Marowak-Alola @ Mawilite (in lieu of Thick Club)
New stats: 60 / 100 / 150 / 50 / 120 / 45

Marowak-Alola @ Medichamite (in lieu of Thick Club)
New stats: 60 / 120 / 120 / 70 / 90 / 65

IV's: 31 All ; EV's: 252 Atk, 252 somewhere, 4 somewhere ; Adamant/Jolly

== Fire Punch / Flare Blitz
== Shadow Bone
== (third attack?)
== Swords Dance / Stealth Rock / Will-O-Wisp
 
We need to suspect Zap Cannon.
With 100% Accuracy, 120 BP and 100% chance of paralysis, it's too powerful and uncompetitive. You just have to wait for paralysis to do its job and you can win by being untouched because of paralysis
And PDon is a check, but if it's the only check to Zap Cannon of the meta, it's not very healthly

252+ SpA Deoxys-Speed Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon: 226-267 (55.9 - 66%)
so 68-78 % after rocks
Man, you just have to weaken PDon a bit and it's over (and it's not very hard, you just have to Toxic him with any Blue Orb user on the switch, Golisopod for example)

252 Atk Aerilate Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 175-207 (72.6 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Genesect can't revenge kill even if Deoxys isn't invested and, of course, Genesect is OHKOed by Zap Cannon

Deoxys-S wins its 1v1 against Blissey with paralysis + Focus Blast
252+ SpA Deoxys-Speed Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 170-200 (26.1 - 30.7%) -- 19.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Blissey can use Soft-Boiled, then Seismic Toss for a 3HKO, but if he's paralysed, no :)

+3 252+ SpA Xurkitree Zap Cannon vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 433-511 (66.5 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
lol


Zap Cannon isn't only a hard-hitting move, it's also [CENSORED] with its 100% Paralysis. Prepare to Die (i'll say nothing about dynamic punch + zap cannon deoxys)

EDIT: I forgot to mention that Thunder only have 10 BP less than Zap Cannon, so Electric-types will not die
 
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