M&M Mix and Mega Resources

OM

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I completely agree with a drop on Golisopod. The metagame has fully adjusted to it, and I really don't see it as that threatening of a pokemon anymore, especially with Zygarde just using it as setup fodder.

Following a similar vein I'd also like nominate Weavile to drop to A-/B+ Weavile is still a solid pokemon in the metagame, and is a great overall cleaner. However the rise of pokemon such as Skarmory, Marshadow and Magearna has led to a drop in Viability for the pokemon, with most teams having a general answer for it, requiring more support from the team. It simply isn't as good as it once was, and It should drop to follow that.
(Totally forgot to do this in my earlier post)
 
(Which can't 2HKO Pdon... right Chazm?)
pls
Koko also doesn't get Zap Cannon - it uses Thunder as its main STAB move, which makes it justified to have a B ranking imo

however, I have to agree with basically everything that has been updated here. Whilst I first debated moving Marshadow to S rank, I realize that its flaws that stop it from becoming S rank are based on its predictability and lack of ability to run other sets with defensive capabilities. However, having Toxic on Marshadow does allow it to blow past Arceus-Fairy, and Stealth Rocks allow it to also blow past Skarmory and Mandibuzz, which make it debatable. There are a few updates that I'd like to make, however:

Arceus-Ghost from A- to B-

With the rise of Marshadow and the decline of mons that Arceus-Ghost checks, such as Terrakion, Arceus-Ghost finds itself in a spot where its defensive set no longer has the niche it used to that was a boon for many teams weak to Terrakion. Its physical set also has major problems with Marshadow - it cannot boost up safely without risking a countersweep, and so, Marshadow must be eliminated from the opposing side to even attempt to sweep. As well as this, Mandibuzz, a pivot that has recently gained popularity, also counters Arceus-Ghost with Foul Play.

Ho-oh from Unranked to B

Despite having major problems with physical attackers in the meta and common pivots such as Zapdos and potentially Mandibuzz, Ho-oh clearly proves itself to be a worthy physical attacker and special tank in the metagame. This, combined with its Dream World ability, Regenerator, allows Ho-oh the ability to become a viable Choice Band attacker. Its signature move, Sacred Fire, also limits the ability of physical attackers to be able to switch in, due to its 50% burn chance. It also manages to act as a Xerneas check. However, there are a few gaping problems, mainly its 4x Rock weakness, resulting in teams that use Ho-oh to opt for double defog options to support it. Because of this, I do not think it should be any higher than B rank.

Calcs:
208+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 153-180 (39.9 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Sablenite)
208+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 307-363 (42.9 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO (Sablenite, opting to run more Atk can help break Blissey, but at the cost of a roll on Xerneas' Thunder)
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 85-101 (20.4 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ SpA Magearna Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 124-148 (29.8 - 35.6%) -- 29.2% chance to 3HKO
208+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 238-282 (65.3 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Venusaurite)
208+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 338-398 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (Sablenite)
208+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 207-244 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
208+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 165-195 (39.1 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 181-214 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk burned Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 90-107 (21.6 - 25.7%) -- 1.8% chance to 4HKO

Arceus from Unranked to B-/C

I'm surprised the Espeed spammer himself isn't on this list. Despite having incredible problems with Marshadow in the current metagame, Arceus shines through as a late game priority cleaner. However, the meta has been extremely unkind to it, with the introduction of both Mandibuzz and Marshadow plaguing it to no end. Once those two threats are gone however, Arceus can easily sweep unprepared teams with a Life Orb Extreme Speed, able to outspeed the likes of other -atespammers, such as Genesect and Zygarde.

Note: It is heavily advised that you run Stone Edge over Ice Beam on Offensive Extreme Killer Arceus - it is the most optimal move for it in the current meta in its fourth slot.

Calcs:
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 223-264 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 156-185 (55.1 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Base form/Glalitite)
252+ Atk Aerilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 148-175 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 455-536 (127 - 149.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Pinsirite)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 273-321 (76.2 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Pinsirite)
+2 0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 252-297 (66.1 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Stone Edge vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 281-333 (66.7 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 346-408 (95.3 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (Sablenite)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 268-316 (83.4 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Metagrossite) - even at +2, it fails to OHKO, just highlighting how problematic Marshadow is for Arceus

Kartana from A+ to A/A-

I had always thought Kartana didn't deserve its A+ rank due to Zapdos running amok in the meta, but now, with Marshadow acting as a check to it, Kartana has become a Pokemon that has much more difficulty setting up and sweeping teams, unlike it used to. However, it still deserves its spot on many teams due to its already sky-high Attack stat, making it break through walls even without an Attack boost, 2HKOing most variants of Groudon-Primal.

Other, minor nominations:
Salamence from Unranked to B-/C
Keldeo
from B+ to B
Hoopa-Unbound
from A- to B+
Shedinja
from B to C

I also have to agree with dropping Golisopod down to B+, possibly even B - it simply doesn't do its job of checking Pdon well enough; I find it incredibly overrated for that reason.

tl;dr Marshadow has changed a considerable amount in the metagame, I believe moreso than any Pokemon currently at A+ and therefore could be considered for S rank. However, A+ is fine by me.
 
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tl;dr Marshadow has changed a considerable amount in the metagame, I believe moreso than any Pokemon currently at A+ and therefore could be considered for S rank. However, A+ is fine by me.
Well sure that's noticeable because Pdon has always been here, if you were to remove it from the meta it would have a way bigger impact than the introduction of Marshadow.

Aside from that, I agree with your nomminations as well with the exception of salamence that I can't seem to understand, would you care to explain why it deserves B rank?
 
Good point. Groudon-Primal basically changed the entire meta of Ubers when it was first added, so I see your logic there in not ranking it S. I was fine with that. Hence I find it in a grey area - it's changed things quite a bit more than the rest of the mons in A+, but it hasn't changed enough to move to S.

On the reply of Salamence's nomination - I was thinking of ranking it B-, however, on closer inspection, that does seem to be the correct ranking for that, since it falls short of a few key KOs without Pinsirite, which doesn't have the bulk to deal with some mons. I'll change its nomination, potentially even down to C, but I still believe that it deserves a ranking.

Salamence, with its Mega Stone, oddly enough happens to be a great wallbreaker with Aerilate Double-Edge. Unfortunately, Skarmory walls it, which is something that it must deal with. As well as that, it must deal with Glalitite Espeed, which often times ruins a sweep, so it won't often get to click DD in a match. However, with Intimidate + the mega stone defense, Salamence becomes incredibly bulky on the physical side, allowing it to check some meta-defining threats, as well as be one of the few Pokemon to have the prestige to 2HKO Pdon.

Calcs:
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 105-124 (30.7 - 36.2%) -- 54.7% chance to 3HKO (Metagrossite) (A warning - some Marshadow run Ice Punch, which OHKOs Salamence-Mega, even at -1)
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 276-325 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Sablenite)
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 186-219 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Adaptability Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 276-328 (80.7 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Lucarionite)
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 262-309 (81.1 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 178-210 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - As you can see, Salamencite falls short.
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 196-232 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO (Pinsirite) pulls through, however.
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
Good point. Groudon-Primal basically changed the entire meta of Ubers when it was first added, so I see your logic there in not ranking it S. I was fine with that. Hence I find it in a grey area - it's changed things quite a bit more than the rest of the mons in A+, but it hasn't changed enough to move to S.

On the reply of Salamence's nomination - I was thinking of ranking it B-, however, on closer inspection, that does seem to be the correct ranking for that, since it falls short of a few key KOs without Pinsirite, which doesn't have the bulk to deal with some mons. I'll change its nomination, potentially even down to C, but I still believe that it deserves a ranking.

Salamence, with its Mega Stone, oddly enough happens to be a great wallbreaker with Aerilate Double-Edge. Unfortunately, Skarmory walls it, which is something that it must deal with. As well as that, it must deal with Glalitite Espeed, which often times ruins a sweep, so it won't often get to click DD in a match. However, with Intimidate + the mega stone defense, Salamence becomes incredibly bulky on the physical side, allowing it to check some meta-defining threats, as well as be one of the few Pokemon to have the prestige to 2HKO Pdon.

Calcs:
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 105-124 (30.7 - 36.2%) -- 54.7% chance to 3HKO (Metagrossite) (A warning - some Marshadow run Ice Punch, which OHKOs Salamence-Mega, even at -1)
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 276-325 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Sablenite)
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 186-219 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Adaptability Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 276-328 (80.7 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Lucarionite)
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 262-309 (81.1 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 178-210 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - As you can see, Salamencite falls short.
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 196-232 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO (Pinsirite) pulls through, however.
I think if we considered creating an S- category Marshadow would fit well there. Not good enough for full S but too good for A+ yeah?
 
On the reply of Salamence's nomination - I was thinking of ranking it B-, however, on closer inspection, that does seem to be the correct ranking for that, since it falls short of a few key KOs without Pinsirite, which doesn't have the bulk to deal with some mons. I'll change its nomination, potentially even down to C, but I still believe that it deserves a ranking.

Salamence, with its Mega Stone, oddly enough happens to be a great wallbreaker with Aerilate Double-Edge. Unfortunately, Skarmory walls it, which is something that it must deal with. As well as that, it must deal with Glalitite Espeed, which often times ruins a sweep, so it won't often get to click DD in a match. However, with Intimidate + the mega stone defense, Salamence becomes incredibly bulky on the physical side, allowing it to check some meta-defining threats, as well as be one of the few Pokemon to have the prestige to 2HKO Pdon.

Calcs:
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 105-124 (30.7 - 36.2%) -- 54.7% chance to 3HKO (Metagrossite) (A warning - some Marshadow run Ice Punch, which OHKOs Salamence-Mega, even at -1)
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 276-325 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Sablenite)
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 186-219 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Adaptability Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 276-328 (80.7 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Lucarionite)
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 262-309 (81.1 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 178-210 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - As you can see, Salamencite falls short.
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 196-232 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO (Pinsirite) pulls through, however.
I just don't see how salamence would be used over Lando-T with salamencite. Also carries intimidate for offensive switch ins, has better typing and better coverage with SEdge that can 2hko Skarmory at +2 for example. If its objective is to break walls then Swords Dance is way better than Dragon Dance because a +2 Return is better than a +1 DEdge, and if a wall is far beyond fat, or you just can't afford to setup, it can explode for massive damage and bring down any wall. You can find more on why Lando is better than Mence in my post.

Pinsirite Metagross is similarly strong, albeit a bit different but imo still better than Mega Mence
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
I don't see the point of S+, both a pdon and Marsh are both metagame defining enough to warrant a shared S rank equally.

Also agree with most noms made, although Koko is still being underrated.
 
I just don't see how salamence would be used over Lando-T with salamencite. Also carries intimidate for offensive switch ins, has better typing and better coverage with SEdge that can 2hko Skarmory at +2 for example. If its objective is to break walls then Swords Dance is way better than Dragon Dance because a +2 Return is better than a +1 DEdge, and if a wall is far beyond fat, or you just can't afford to setup, it can explode for massive damage and bring down any wall. You can find more on why Lando is better than Mence in my post.

Pinsirite Metagross is similarly strong, albeit a bit different but imo still better than Mega Mence
I can agree with this. Alright, debate settled, I guess it doesn't really have that much of a niche since Lando-T can do the same thing but better
 

Chloe

is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
NUPL Champion
Because this is extremely outdated and it's absolutely paramount to have this resource updated, I've made the following changes based on nominations.
Code:
Arceus (Unr to B-)
Arceus-Fairy (Unr to A)
Arceus-Ghost (A- to B-)
Arceus-Steel (Unr to B-)
Excadrill (Unr to B)
Genesect (A- to A)
Ho-Oh (Unr to B)
Hoopa-Unbound (A- to B+)
Kartana (A+ to A)
Keldeo (B+ to B)
Kyogre (B- to C)
Landorus-Therian (C to B)
Latios (C to Unr)
Mandibuzz (Unr to B+)
Mantine (Unr to B-)
Marshadow (Unr to A+)
Rayquaza (Unr to B)
Salamence (Unr to C)
Shedinja (B to C)
Skarmory (B+ to A-)
Terrakion (A- to A)
Togekiss (C to B+)
Yveltal (B+ to A)
I have left out a few nominations:
Weavile (A+ to A-/B+): This is quite a substantial drop for an A+ Pokémon, I'd like to see more discussion on this before proceeding with it.
Golisopod (A+ to B+): While I disagree with this, with more discussion I can see it happening. It's not right for an A+ to move so abruptly, especially for a suggested drop this large. More discussion needs to occur.
Nihilego (C to Unr): While this may initially seem like bias, as I am the one who pioneered Sablenite Nihilego, I feel like due to the stone listed on the VR, it may have caused some confusion. It is not solely a Toxic Spikes setter but it walls Zapdos and Xerneas, while acting as a soft check to common threats Yveltal and Arceus-Fairy. It's not just another hazard setter. If you all still agree it should fall however, I will proceed with it.
Tapu Koko (B+ to A-/B/B-): It was nommed for both a rise and a fall, I'd definitely like to see more discussion on this.

Additionally, we will aim to update all the other resources in this thread; however, major adjustments to the content of resources (not including the VR) will probably be delayed until after the conclusion of OMPL. I encourage you all to continue discussing nominations.
 
Pdon is no where near good enough to be S+. Personally, I wouldn't even say it's S at all
I'm pretty sure Viability Rankings are relative, not absolute, which means that a pokemon's viability is rated on how well it does relative to the others, which makes Pdon the best of the meta, whether it is S, S+, S- or A, as long as it is at the top, it deserves to be there. However, (and I think this is what you mean) the gap between Pdon and the rest of the A+ threats would be too big compared to reality. If there really is a need to put Marshadow between the A+ threats and Pdon, which imo there isn't, you'd place it S-
 
I'm back with the new installment of "wtf Mark's actually contributing" to update the Stone Viability Rankings!

So, here's a list of all the stones added after the last update:
Abomasite
Audinite
Bannettite
Cameruptite
Gardevoirite
Heracronite
Houndoominite
Lopunnite
Manectite
Sceptilite
Steelixite
Swampertite
Tyranitarite

Quikbanned:
Blazikenite and Medichamite


For clarity (and time-saving) purposes I will simply suggest a ranking to the stones, let me know if there is anything too outrageous and I will take the time to explain it.
Let's get started with the New Stones:

Abomasite: C
Users: Ninetales-Alola, Mew

Audinite: C/B
Users: Mantine, Audino, Heatran, Xurkitree

Bannettite: B
Users: Breloom, Marshadow, Mimikyu

Cameruptite: A
Users: Magearna, Volcarona, Reuniclus, Xurkitree, Hoopa-U

Gardevoirite: C
Users: Tapu Koko, Sylveon

Heracronite: C
Users: Cloyster, Heracross, Any other Skill Link abuser

Houndoominite: C
Users: Ninetales, Torkoal

Lopunnite: B
Users: Terrakion, Landorus-T, Arcanine, Kartana

Manectite: B
Users: Zapdos, Tapu Fini, Mandibuzz, Mew

Sceptilite: C
Users: Manaphy, Heliolisk

Steelixite: C
Users: Tyranitar, Gigalith, Hippodown

Swampertite: C
Users: Politoed, Pelliper

Tyranitarite: D
Users: (I really couldn't come up with anything)



Now onto the changes of the Already Released Stones:

Mewtwonite X: B to C
In my opinion, this stone shouln't even have been B rank in the first place. It gives 80 Atk, but no speed to make any kind of use to it, a completely useless ability and still makes your second type Fighting which makes high tier Speed pokemon (that could actually make some use of the attack stat) unviable. Even if it was worthy of B rank before, the addition of Lopunnite now completely removes MMX from the meta.


That should be everything covered regarding stones, only one more to go on Role Compendium.
Also, is this gonna be a thing? It got me hype af!

Imagine Zapdos running this... :O
 
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drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
I'm back with the new installment of "wtf Mark's actually contributing" to update the Stone Viability Rankings!

So, here's a list of all the stones added after the last update:
Abomasite
Audinite
Bannettite
Cameruptite
Gardevoirite
Heracronite
Houndoominite
Lopunnite
Manectite
Sceptilite
Steelixite
Swampertite
Tyranitarite

Quikbanned:
Blazikenite and Medichamite


For clarity (and time-saving) purposes I will simply suggest a ranking to the stones, let me know if there is anything too outrageous and I will take the time to explain it.
Let's get started with the New Stones:

Abomasite: C
Users: Ninetales-Alola

Audinite: C/B
Users: Mantine, Audino, Heatran, Xurkitree

Bannettite: B
Users: Breloom, Marshadow, Mimikyu
Cameruptite: A
Users: Magearna, Volcarona, Reuniclus, Xurkitree, Hoopa-U

Gardevoirite: C
Users: Tapu Koko, Sylveon

Heracronite: C
Users: Cloyster, Heracross, Any other Skill Link abuser

Houndoominite: C
Users: Ninetales, Torkoal
Lopunnite: B
Users: Terrakion, Landorus-T, Arcanine, Kartana
Manectite: B
Users: Zapdos, Tapu Fini, Mandibuzz, Mew

Sceptilite: C
Users: Manaphy, Heliolisk

Steelixite: C
Users: Tyranitar, Gigalith, Hippodown

Swampertite: C
Users: Politoed, Pelliper

Tyranitarite: D
Users: (I really couldn't come up with anything)



Now onto the changes of the Already Released Stones:

Mewtwonite X: B to C
In my opinion, this stone shouln't even have been B rank in the first place. It gives 80 Atk, but no speed to make any kind of use to it, a completely useless ability and still makes your second type Fighting which makes high tier Speed pokemon (that could actually make some use of the attack stat) unviable. Even if it was worthy of B rank before, the addition of Lopunnite now completely removes MMX from the meta.


That should be everything covered regarding stones, only one more to go on Role Compendium.
Also, is this gonna be a thing? It got me hype af!

Imagine Zapdos running this... :O
Zapdos doesn't get dragon ascent. Only Smeargle can do that.
 
I'm back with the new installment of "wtf Mark's actually contributing" to update the Stone Viability Rankings!

So, here's a list of all the stones added after the last update:
Abomasite
Audinite
Bannettite
Cameruptite
Gardevoirite
Heracronite
Houndoominite
Lopunnite
Manectite
Sceptilite
Steelixite
Swampertite
Tyranitarite

Quikbanned:
Blazikenite and Medichamite


For clarity (and time-saving) purposes I will simply suggest a ranking to the stones, let me know if there is anything too outrageous and I will take the time to explain it.
Let's get started with the New Stones:

Abomasite: C
Users: Ninetales-Alola

Audinite: C/B
Users: Mantine, Audino, Heatran, Xurkitree

Bannettite: B
Users: Breloom, Marshadow, Mimikyu
Cameruptite: A
Users: Magearna, Volcarona, Reuniclus, Xurkitree, Hoopa-U

Gardevoirite: C
Users: Tapu Koko, Sylveon

Heracronite: C
Users: Cloyster, Heracross, Any other Skill Link abuser

Houndoominite: C
Users: Ninetales, Torkoal
Lopunnite: B
Users: Terrakion, Landorus-T, Arcanine, Kartana
Manectite: B
Users: Zapdos, Tapu Fini, Mandibuzz, Mew

Sceptilite: C
Users: Manaphy, Heliolisk

Steelixite: C
Users: Tyranitar, Gigalith, Hippodown

Swampertite: C
Users: Politoed, Pelliper

Tyranitarite: D
Users: (I really couldn't come up with anything)



Now onto the changes of the Already Released Stones:

Mewtwonite X: B to C
In my opinion, this stone shouln't even have been B rank in the first place. It gives 80 Atk, but no speed to make any kind of use to it, a completely useless ability and still makes your second type Fighting which makes high tier Speed pokemon (that could actually make some use of the attack stat) unviable. Even if it was worthy of B rank before, the addition of Lopunnite now completely removes MMX from the meta.


That should be everything covered regarding stones, only one more to go on Role Compendium.
Also, is this gonna be a thing? It got me hype af!

Imagine Zapdos running this... :O
Wouldn't Mew be a better Abomasite(Aurora Veil) user?
 

Dunfan

formerly Dunsparce Fanboy
Tyranitarite: D
Users: (I really couldn't come up with anything)
While the Tyranitarite will probably never be A rank, i believe it's a very good stone for Rock-typed mons. (but not A-rank material, obviously)
The sandstorm raises the SpD of Rock-typed mons by x1.5, which is pretty good, and would be definitely better if the sandstorm couldn't be removed so easily by any Red Orb or Blue Orb mon.
Alas, it is. And the only truly defensive rock-type mon is Arceus-Rock, which can't use the Tyranitarite. (anyway it wouldn't help much in it's role of -atespeed check)
Another problem : the lack of Recovery moves for Rock types. Aerodactyl and Archeops gets Roost, Corsola, Magcargo and Cradily gets Recover but... only Cradily can use Recover decently. Anyway having a recovery move doesn't matter much for them since it's impossible to "just click Recover" due to the sandstorm dissapearing after 5 turns.

Now that i have talked about the flaws of this stone, i can talk about what's good with it...
Well, good bulk for Rock types. Nothing more. And that's actually impressive.

252 SpA Pidgeotite Tapu Koko Thunder vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Tyranitarite Nihilego under Electric Terrain and sandstorm: 114-135 (27 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

You may wonder what's the point of this calc...
Well, simply showing how good it is for a Rock-typed specially defensive mon.

I can't bring replays right now but i will do it later.
But for the time being, i suggest (not nominate, juste suggest) Tyranitarite to be C rank.

That being said, i think Tyranitarite should be added to Nihilego in the viability rankings for giving better special bulk than Sablenite. (it is immune to Toxic so Magic Bounce's only utility would be to bounce back Stealth Rocks and stuff... alas, the most common Stealth Rock setters are either using Gyaradosite, either OHKOing Nihilego)
 
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Because this is extremely outdated and it's absolutely paramount to have this resource updated, I've made the following changes based on nominations.
Code:
Arceus (Unr to B-)
Arceus-Fairy (Unr to A)
Arceus-Ghost (A- to B-)
Arceus-Steel (Unr to B-)
Excadrill (Unr to B)
Genesect (A- to A+)
Ho-Oh (Unr to B)
Hoopa-Unbound (A- to B+)
Kartana (A+ to A)
Keldeo (B+ to B)
Kyogre (B- to C)
Landorus-Therian (C to B)
Latios (C to Unr)
Mandibuzz (Unr to B+)
Mantine (Unr to B-)
Marshadow (Unr to A+)
Rayquaza (Unr to B)
Salamence (Unr to C)
Shedinja (B to C)
Skarmory (B+ to A-)
Terrakion (A- to A)
Togekiss (C to B+)
Yveltal (B+ to A)
I have left out a few nominations:
Weavile (A+ to A-/B+): This is quite a substantial drop for an A+ Pokémon, I'd like to see more discussion on this before proceeding with it.
Golisopod (A+ to B+): While I disagree with this, with more discussion I can see it happening. It's not right for an A+ to move so abruptly, especially for a suggested drop this large. More discussion needs to occur.
Nihilego (C to Unr): While this may initially seem like bias, as I am the one who pioneered Sablenite Nihilego, I feel like due to the stone listed on the VR, it may have caused some confusion. It is not solely a Toxic Spikes setter but it walls Zapdos and Xerneas, while acting as a soft check to common threats Yveltal and Arceus-Fairy. It's not just another hazard setter. If you all still agree it should fall however, I will proceed with it.
Tapu Koko (B+ to A-/B/B-): It was nommed for both a rise and a fall, I'd definitely like to see more discussion on this.

Additionally, we will aim to update all the other resources in this thread; however, major adjustments to the content of resources (not including the VR) will probably be delayed until after the conclusion of OMPL. I encourage you all to continue discussing nominations.
There are a couple of changes that I disagree with, so Ill respond to them here:
Genesect:
A- to A+
I truly believe Genesect has the same level of threat as Zygarde, since they are both great abusers of Pinsirite/Glalite but it has an edge because of better setup (Shift Gear > Dragon Dance), U-turn (Which can be used for scouting, pivot'ing, or just switch in something better when the matchup isn't great), Special Coverage (Techno Blast), Download (Zygarde's basic ability is useless), Flinch hax (Iron Head, not as relevant but sometimes that can be your only wincon), and a nuke (Explosion, numbers are similar to Lando-T above) which forces teams to run a check for it to be able to consistently beat it. Plus, it can revenge kill Marshadow which is an added bonus.
Shift gear Genesect is just awful. It can't setup on anything, has no coverage that deals real damage (and thus cannot sweep), and doesn't let genesect beat any of its a swers. Iron Head is similarly bad, as an offstab, 80 bp move just sorta tickles, especially with steel's shit coverage. While it does have special attacks, this doesnt stop it from gettting walled by zapdos, Magearna, and blissey, three of the most common walls, nor does it help with being stupid sr weak. The only real things it has going for it is the sheer power of download+techno blast (unreliable) and uturn, and the latter prevents it from mega evolving and is thus not a real hame changer. A+ implies its a top tier metagame threat, and its really not.
Tapu Koko:
B+ to B-/B
Tapu Koko with 160 Sp. Atk and 150 Spe (Pidgeotite) under Electric Terrain is terrifying, especially with Zap Cannon (120 BP + 50% chance of paralysis) being its goto STAB move, while having Dazzling Gleam for dark dungeons and big dragons and decent coverage with Grass Knot (Which can't 2HKO Pdon... right Chazm?). However, it is easily walled by 2 very prominent pokemon in the meta in Groudon-Primal and Blissey, who really only have to stall (if not KO) Koko for 5 turns before Electric Terrain fades and it loses 1/3 of its power. Xurkitree however can setup with Tail Glow, has the same coverage as special Tapu Koko and isn't punished by switching out, while their speed tiers are quite different, the difference in power gives Xurk an edge on a meta dominated by Balance and BO. Other Koko variants (Lucarionite, Pinsirite and Gardevoirite) have niches but are clearly inferior to Pidgeotite (This does not mean they are unviable)


252 SpA Tapu Koko (Pidgeotite) Zap Cannon under Electric Terrain vs. 252 HP / 156 SpD Blissey (Sablenite): 183-216 (25.6 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko (Pidgeotite) Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 167-197 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Dont compare Tapu Koko to xurkitree; Xurkitree is a mediocre wallbreaker, while Tapu Koko actually runs all over offense. Almost nothing bar scarfers outspeed it, it resists aerilate and ohkoes all users, pdon cant switch in with rocks up, and it can't be revenged by Weavile, Golisopod, Arceus or Marshadow. Yes, terrain is impermanant, but its still absurdly difficult to face without it when it can pivot out of any unfavorable matchup while dealing a big chunk to whatever switches in. Really, the only multiple use answer is Blissey, which still hates switch and nature's madness, and the most offensive team that can use that is bulky balance.

Mandibuzz:
Unranked to B+
Very similar do Skarmory, can switch into Marshadow and deal a lot of damage with Foul Play. Has reliable Recovery, Hazard Removal in Defog and can serve as a Pivot with U-Turn. Was already really nice as a pivot before, and with Marshadow on the meta its viability rises drastically
Why People think this walls marshadow is beyond me; the best set, bulk up, can 1v1 it after Stealth Rock, so there's no way Mandibuzz can switch in. Its not like you can stop it from getting sr damage, as its almost always the defogger, and a bunch of things it checks like pdon deal a huge chunk to it; overall, it can check maybe one mon a match and is very easily pressured. It's definitally deserving of a rank, but B+ is too high.
So I think this may cause some controversy but I would like to nominate Golisopod to fall... quite a bit.

The main two roles Golisopod serves are as a switch-in to Primal Groudon and as a wallbreaker. I don't think it does either of these roles very well. As a Pdon switch-in it gets predicted by any good opponent and either pdon sets rocks or hits it with Stone Edge. Yes Pdon then has to switch out or be killed by Aqua Jet, but it can then switch right back in and all Goli can do is toxic it on the switch. Against the only other common Red Orb mon, Raikou, Golisopod gets murdered if it tries to switch in (Togekiss isn't common or that good imo, Volcarona isn't common).

As a wallbreaker Golisopod... isn't hard to switch into honestly. It allows strong offensive mons to switch in, such as Pinsirite Zygarde, Rayquaza, Pdon, any other red orb mon, and Kartana. The most these mons have to fear is a Toxic, which hardly makes for a good "nuke". There are also plenty of defensive mons which can wall it, especially if it lacks Swords Dance (which it should, Swords Dance just doesn't fit on its best sets imo). It's also atrociously slow leaving it to rely on Aqua Jet way more than it wants to.

Having said all that Golisopod isn't awful. Forcing out Pdon is always good on teams that can take proper advantage of this (eg not letting it in for free easily again). It also serves as a nice Weavile counter and a decent revenge killer, although water isn't great as a type for revenge killing i m o.

And finally in all its roles Golisopod finds itself worn down easily. By rocks, by switching into what its supposed to check, and... yeh that's mostly it. It doesn't have the survivability to be reliable in longer or even medium length matches. And no, Leech Life is not good enough healing for it.

I'd like to nominate Golisopod for B+. I could personally see it lower, but not much lower. Please comment like subscribe tell me if I'm insane.
Golisopod 100% runs swords dance; this is probably a large part of why you think its so bad, as the other sets just arent anywhere near as good. Generally, dual water stab+toxic is the way to go, but Uninvested ice beam is also a great set (-spe matters nothing) which destroys zygarde on the switch. The point of golisopod is threefold; to run over any teams without red orb mons, to force predictions by and freely force out red orb mons, and to come in on said red orb mons (mainly pdon) and take a huge chunk out of something. It can also revenge kill or toxic pdon for another answer, as well as check the common weavile. A+ is perhaps overselling its current impact, as people are now far more prepared for it (edge pdon especially), but its still a great pick for almost any offense team with some form of hazard management, and its absolutely something you always need to prepare for when building and playing. A seems decent, or maybe A- if you guys feel the changes have hurt a bit more, but not B+ and as not lower.


Kartana from A+ to A/A-

I had always thought Kartana didn't deserve its A+ rank due to Zapdos running amok in the meta, but now, with Marshadow acting as a check to it, Kartana has become a Pokemon that has much more difficulty setting up and sweeping teams, unlike it used to. However, it still deserves its spot on many teams due to its already sky-high Attack stat, making it break through walls even without an Attack boost, 2HKOing most variants of Groudon-Primal.
Neither Zapdos nor Marshadow are real Kartana checks; they might suffice if your team already soft checks it and doesnt give it many opportunities, but they are nowehere near reliable. Marshadow has a chance to be ohkoed after stealth rock; quarenteed if nonmega, and likely if metagrossite, while zapdos needs heat wave to not get run over by SD and is still easily pressured besides. Marshadow is also outsped unless it runs the inferior metagrossite, so most of the time kartana is acting as a marshadow answer, and thats to say nothing of the Lopunnite sets that can take close combat.

Pdon is no where near good enough to be S+. Personally, I wouldn't even say it's S at all
I honestly have to agree with this; Im not sure if we really have a standout best mon like we did in the skymin meta, but if we did it would probably be marshadow; pdon is good, but S+ is way overblowing it and even S has some problems.
 
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drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
There are a couple of changes that I disagree with, so Ill respond to them here:
Golisopod 100% runs swords dance; this is probably a large part of why you think its so bad, as the other sets just arent anywhere near as good. Generally, dual water stab+toxic is the way to go, but Uninvested ice beam is also a great set (-spe matters nothing) which destroys zygarde on the switch. The point of golisopod is threefold; to run over any teams without red orb mons, to force predictions by and freely force out red orb mons, and to come in on said red orb mons (mainly pdon) and take a huge chunk out of something. It can also revenge kill or toxic pdon for another answer, as well as check the common weavile. A+ is perhaps overselling its current impact, as people are now far more prepared for it (edge pdon especially), but its still a great pick for almost any offense team with some form of hazard management, and its absolutely something you always need to prepare for when building and playing. A seems decent, or maybe A- if you guys feel the changes have hurt a bit more, but not B+ and as not lower.
I'm going to preface this by saying I'm avoiding talking about stall because I haven't played with it recently. There are Goli walls on stall ig, Tina for instance, but I don't really know what I'm talking about.

I'm not sure what to say that I haven't already said so I'll repeat myself a bit: I find Golisopod easy to switch into, easy to pressure, easy to chip. Kartana, any Red Orb mon, Pinsirite Zygarde; none of these fear more than Toxic. While Toxicing these mons (bar Kart ofc) isn't nothing, it's kind of bad when you consider that all of these are strong offensive mons that you dont want to give free turns to. I would change any form of hazard control to a very reliable form of hazard control. If Goli is constantly taking chip damage it cant abuse the good bulk it has.

I guess I can agree that teams do have to prepare for it, but to have a place in A+ I think Goli should be more difficult to stop than it is, and require less support than it does.

A- would be fine for me. I think A is still too high. B+ was probably me being biased from running Ray + Pdon for so long.

.............
How common / good is Ice Beam? I've never run across it in a good long while of switching Ray fearlessly into it, but it seems like it would be a pretty effective way of neutralizing some checks on the switch-in. Might change my opinion a little in an upwards direction, although not likely more than its already been changed tbh.
sorry if this is scattered my brain is dying cuz its late
Neither Zapdos nor Marshadow are real Kartana checks; they might suffice if your team already soft checks it and doesnt give it many opportunities, but they are nowehere near reliable. Marshadow has a chance to be ohkoed after stealth rock; quarenteed if nonmega, and likely if metagrossite, while zapdos needs heat wave to not get run over by SD and is still easily pressured besides. Marshadow is also outsped unless it runs the inferior metagrossite, so most of the time kartana is acting as a marshadow answer, and thats to say nothing of the Lopunnite sets that can take close combat.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by Zapdos being easily pressured, but a lot of them run Heat Wave, and pDef Zapdos takes less than 25% from Kartana's Leaf Blade. It seems like a pretty solid check to me. Zapdos just has to be above ~50% after rocks when switching in and it will do fine as far as I can see.
 
I'd like to nominate, of all things, Breloom and Shiinotic for B Rank.

Simply put: Banettite is a godsend for them. Not only does it give them both Prankster Spore as well as Leech Seed and Substitute, but also allows them to become incredibly threatening with their high attack boost and crazy utility respectively. Breloom obtains a staggering 180 Base Attack, making even its Drain Punch potentially fatal while dealing with Dark types and healing it back. It can also go for SubPunch firing off terrifying Focus Punches that can even one-shot Sablenite Blissey or easily 2HKO PDon. While situational and requiring a lot of skill to get off, Breloom is still rewarding with its own merits.

Shiinotic may not receive a high stat boost compared to Breloom, but it's equally as scary to face simply because of Strength Sap. Because of the mechanics of MnM, many Pokemon receive an attack boost upon Mega Evolving whether they want it or not, which is even more fuel for Shiinotic to leech off and regain more health from. Coupled with Prankster, it can easily avoid potential KOs by weakening the opponent and resetting its HP in one click with its shockingly-effective bulk. Not only does the Fairy typing add useful resistances to Bug, Dark, and Fighting along with the option of STAB Moonblast for offense, but its 60/90/120 bulk allows it to survive many attacks that you would normally think would OHKO it at full health with the right defense investment, such as Pinsirite Zygarde's Extreme Speed, PKyogre's Ice Beam, Lucarionite Marshadow's Spectral Theif, Metagrossite Kartana's Return, and +2 Metagrossite Mimikyu's Play Rough while it either hits with Moonblast, heals, or sets up a Substitute or status on the opponent.

Bottom line, even though they have clear flaws preventing them from being high-tier, both Breloom and Shiinotic along with Banettite are very capable Grass types that can both rip apart unprepared teams with their respective strength and utility, and I feel are worth considering when teambuilding.
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
I'd like to nominate, of all things, Breloom and Shiinotic for B Rank.

Simply put: Banettite is a godsend for them. Not only does it give them both Prankster Spore as well as Leech Seed and Substitute, but also allows them to become incredibly threatening with their high attack boost and crazy utility respectively. Breloom obtains a staggering 180 Base Attack, making even its Drain Punch potentially fatal while dealing with Dark types and healing it back. It can also go for SubPunch firing off terrifying Focus Punches that can even one-shot Sablenite Blissey or easily 2HKO PDon. While situational and requiring a lot of skill to get off, Breloom is still rewarding with its own merits.

Shiinotic may not receive a high stat boost compared to Breloom, but it's equally as scary to face simply because of Strength Sap. Because of the mechanics of MnM, many Pokemon receive an attack boost upon Mega Evolving whether they want it or not, which is even more fuel for Shiinotic to leech off and regain more health from. Coupled with Prankster, it can easily avoid potential KOs by weakening the opponent and resetting its HP in one click with its shockingly-effective bulk. Not only does the Fairy typing add useful resistances to Bug, Dark, and Fighting along with the option of STAB Moonblast for offense, but its 60/90/120 bulk allows it to survive many attacks that you would normally think would OHKO it at full health with the right defense investment, such as Pinsirite Zygarde's Extreme Speed, PKyogre's Ice Beam, Lucarionite Marshadow's Spectral Theif, Metagrossite Kartana's Return, and +2 Metagrossite Mimikyu's Play Rough while it either hits with Moonblast, heals, or sets up a Substitute or status on the opponent.

Bottom line, even though they have clear flaws preventing them from being high-tier, both Breloom and Shiinotic along with Banettite are very capable Grass types that can both rip apart unprepared teams with their respective strength and utility, and I feel are worth considering when teambuilding.
Why is Metagrossite Kartana using Return on a Shiinotic when it has a Super-effective STAB for it? Also if there is any Sablenite (or absolite) mon on the opposing team Shiinotic can't heal at all outside of like, Giga Drain, leaving it with incredibly low survival. I don't see why you'd want to use it over other mons with Spore in a tier where Magic Bounce is everywhere, and I don't see how its worthy of B. It will take some arguing before you convince me its worthy of a rank at all.

Breloom I can agree with though, haven't used it or seen it much but its offensive presence seems really nice on paper when combined with spore.
 
I'm going to preface this by saying I'm avoiding talking about stall because I haven't played with it recently. There are Goli walls on stall ig, Tina for instance, but I don't really know what I'm talking about.

I'm not sure what to say that I haven't already said so I'll repeat myself a bit: I find Golisopod easy to switch into, easy to pressure, easy to chip. Kartana, any Red Orb mon, Pinsirite Zygarde; none of these fear more than Toxic. While Toxicing these mons (bar Kart ofc) isn't nothing, it's kind of bad when you consider that all of these are strong offensive mons that you dont want to give free turns to. I would change any form of hazard control to a very reliable form of hazard control. If Goli is constantly taking chip damage it cant abuse the good bulk it has.

I guess I can agree that teams do have to prepare for it, but to have a place in A+ I think Goli should be more difficult to stop than it is, and require less support than it does.

A- would be fine for me. I think A is still too high. B+ was probably me being biased from running Ray + Pdon for so long.

.............
How common / good is Ice Beam? I've never run across it in a good long while of switching Ray fearlessly into it, but it seems like it would be a pretty effective way of neutralizing some checks on the switch-in. Might change my opinion a little in an upwards direction, although not likely more than its already been changed tbh.
sorry if this is scattered my brain is dying cuz its late


I'm not entirely sure what you mean by Zapdos being easily pressured, but a lot of them run Heat Wave, and pDef Zapdos takes less than 25% from Kartana's Leaf Blade. It seems like a pretty solid check to me. Zapdos just has to be above ~50% after rocks when switching in and it will do fine as far as I can see.
Kartana is in no way a switch even if they don't run leech life, altho it can act as a decent revenge killer and soft check alongside a red orb mon - +2 252+ Atk Golisopod Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana in Heavy Rain: 212-250 (81.8 - 96.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, and if they survive to use that they can aqua jet next turn. in return kartana has this: 252 Atk Tough Claws Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golisopod: 192-226 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Kartana can 1v1 even leech life with swords dance, but thats a rather different situation that being a reliable switchin.

Ice beam is a solid option, but generally only if you don't have other answers as it tickles pdon and doesnt even reliably OHKO pinsirite after rocks; you do live an aerilate espeed and can thus sometimes stay in, but rocks cant be up and they have to not have frustration.

Zapdos has to stay above 70% after rocks, as otherwise this happens: +2 252 Atk Tough Claws Kartana Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 226-267 (59 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. This means it (or another defogger) must be able to switch in on the rocker, which is often pretty much impossible - see primal groudon - or maintain 100% health and never get doubled on. This means it cant check genesect, because uturn to a counter forces it out, it cant get statused (even burn lets it die after rocks), it has to recover even at 90% - and this is if it runs heat wave and becomes 100% pdon bait. For volt switch toxic (and even more so uturn toxic), it must stay above thta health, and then succesfulky predict betweeen recovery and pivoting to a check - if any are even alive. Volt switch does deal a nice amount, but kart can take it and still sta out of weakile range so it's not super easy there either.
I'd like to nominate, of all things, Breloom and Shiinotic for B Rank.

Simply put: Banettite is a godsend for them. Not only does it give them both Prankster Spore as well as Leech Seed and Substitute, but also allows them to become incredibly threatening with their high attack boost and crazy utility respectively. Breloom obtains a staggering 180 Base Attack, making even its Drain Punch potentially fatal while dealing with Dark types and healing it back. It can also go for SubPunch firing off terrifying Focus Punches that can even one-shot Sablenite Blissey or easily 2HKO PDon. While situational and requiring a lot of skill to get off, Breloom is still rewarding with its own merits.

Shiinotic may not receive a high stat boost compared to Breloom, but it's equally as scary to face simply because of Strength Sap. Because of the mechanics of MnM, many Pokemon receive an attack boost upon Mega Evolving whether they want it or not, which is even more fuel for Shiinotic to leech off and regain more health from. Coupled with Prankster, it can easily avoid potential KOs by weakening the opponent and resetting its HP in one click with its shockingly-effective bulk. Not only does the Fairy typing add useful resistances to Bug, Dark, and Fighting along with the option of STAB Moonblast for offense, but its 60/90/120 bulk allows it to survive many attacks that you would normally think would OHKO it at full health with the right defense investment, such as Pinsirite Zygarde's Extreme Speed, PKyogre's Ice Beam, Lucarionite Marshadow's Spectral Theif, Metagrossite Kartana's Return, and +2 Metagrossite Mimikyu's Play Rough while it either hits with Moonblast, heals, or sets up a Substitute or status on the opponent.

Bottom line, even though they have clear flaws preventing them from being high-tier, both Breloom and Shiinotic along with Banettite are very capable Grass types that can both rip apart unprepared teams with their respective strength and utility, and I feel are worth considering when teambuilding.
One problem with breloom is its overlap with kartana; many kartana checks, such as Yveltal, Zapdos, and Giratina, all wall both, and can do so reasonably comfortably. Spore is a great tool, but it also doesnt do much against most defensive teams and offense will always have some answer or another. Its definitally improved with the dissapearance of skymin and the corresponding decrease is sleep/grass answers, but while I wouldn't actually be very opposed flat B just seems a bit high. Do you have any replays to show?

As far as shinootic, though, Im really not seing the appeal. Yes, you can wall with strength sap and spore, but any chip sticks with it because its helpless against bounce, and its complete setup bait for kartana since strength sap is outpaced by swords dance. Even against marshadow its really iffy, as marshadow can use shadow sneak if spectral falls short. I just can't imagine many teams that wouldn't be improved by its lack; again, do you have any replays or team importables to show its use?
 
I'd like to nominate Magearna to move from A- to A rank.

The new shift in the meta has made Magearna even more viable thanks to the introduction of Marshadow - acting as a check to both it and a counter to the Dark/Flying brethren used to check Marshadow, Mandibuzz and Yveltal. Whilst Groudon-Primal is still a massive threat for Magearna, it is not hard to deal some incredible chip damage to it with Fleur Cannon - infact, Fleur Cannon can be used as a great scouting tool with Blue Orb users - specifically to check if the Groudon-Primal set is a specially defensive variant or not. It is also good against the influx of Fairies into the meta if it is carrying Flash Cannon - whilst a suboptimal move, this can be used to put Arceus-Fairy in check, one of the greater defensive threats this generation. It also happens to be one of the only anti-leads to Deoxys-Speed in the game, and one of the only reliable checks to Xerneas.

However, one trait stands out above all for Magearna, and that is the incredible boon Sablenite Magearna offer for their team, being one of the only Pokemon with a pivot move being able to underspeed Sablenite Blissey, allowing checks such as Marshadow to enter the field without the fear of getting hit with Toxic. However, once the meta adapts to this change, Magearna will no longer be able to sap the incredible amount of momentum it did from Blissey. However - not all is lost. It can abuse Pain Split to cut down Blissey's health considerably, and if Blissey is slower than Magearna, Magearna will find it much easier to switch in at lower health percentiles and take the enemies health from them to put it back into action. It also suffers from mild four-moveslot syndrome - it often finds it difficult to fit Flash Cannon onto a set without losing to Z-Geomancy Xerneas, and therefore it is the least preferred move out of the five that it could take.

There are also other sets emerging, such as a trick room abusing set using Cameruptite, which can take potentially take off 50% of Groudon-Primal's health (252+ SpA Sheer Force Magearna Ice Beam vs. 168 HP / 36 SpD Groudon-Primal: 180-212 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO), somewhat invalidating it as a switchin. However, these sets are niche compared to the main pivoting set, as Trick Room archetypes often fail to have the amount of options that other offense types have. However, there is a lot of diversity in the different EVs that set could use, as there are a few key threats that can be checked if Magearna invests into Defense and Special Defense alongside HP. One of these happens to be Zygarde, which with 44 Defense EVs, and a Bold nature, a Magearna can effectively tank 2 Thousand Arrows from a non-mega Zygarde.

252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Magearna: 152-182 (41.7 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO - If one were to ensure that a 2HKO was not possible without a crit, the next value would be 68+ Def, which cuts down other investment considerably in comparison.
However, I would plead to recommend using a Modest nature with 252 SpA investment to deal as much damage to walls as possible - Magearna really needs to wear down its checks throughout the match, and removing the Modest nature removes a few key KOs that it may need. A set with 252 HP/44+ Def/212 SpD is also a possible option if you really need the defense on Magearna.

With that said, here are some calculations to prove Magearna's worth as a bulky, but powerful pivot.

Offensive calculations, assuming Sablenite:
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 100-118 (24.8 - 29.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 152 HP / 44 SpD Groudon-Primal: 135-159 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 152 SpD Groudon-Primal: 120-142 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - The blank area between these calculations really helps to tell what you should be switching into; even then, offensive variants still take a chunk from Magearna and are eventually worn down completely by it due to lack of reliable recovery.
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 297-349 (105.6 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-Speed: 259-306 (107.4 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Pidgeotite)
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-Speed: 330-390 (108.5 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Gyaradosite) - even max SpD Deo-S cannot live a Fleur Cannon from this thing.
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 476-564 (148.2 - 175.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Metagrossite)
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Fairy: 222-262 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Fairy: 272-324 (61.2 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defensive calculations, assuming Sablenite:
232+ SpA Yveltal Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 146-174 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Vs. other variants, more SpD may be preferred due to Heat Wave 2HKOing the standard spread. Venusaurite also helps to mitigate this, which may become more viable as more and more Blissey start to run minimum speed.)
252 Atk Adaptability Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 198-234 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 169-201 (46.4 - 55.2%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Magearna: 150-177 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (This does make the defensive variant a possible counter!)
252 Atk Adaptability Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Magearna: 178-210 (48.9 - 57.6%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna in Psychic Terrain: 87-103 (23.9 - 28.2%) -- 95.6% chance to 4HKO (Absolite)

Other calculations such as resisted hits have been omitted, however, the defensive typing of Magearna should lead to some hints on just how good it is on walling offensive mons in the meta.
 
What is Terrakion doing in A right now? Not only is the introduction of Marshadow leading to a significant increase in Fairy-Arceus but Marshadow is really giving Terrakion a run for its money. Marshadow almost completely eclipses Terrakion in the current metagame seeing as it's faster, has more utility and it's more versatile. Never mind the fact that Marshadow is an excellent Terrakion check, being immune to Close Combat and Lucarionite Stone Edge being a roll. If it dares to set up then Marshadow can just steal its boosts and kill it back, even if it's behind a sub. I played a bit today and I had a really hard time justifying using Terrakion over Marshadow. Therefore I nominate it to drop from

A --> B
 

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