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Honestly guys with this team I am not even slightly worried about Amoonguss or "Bulky Waters" given that I have multiple answers for all of them. Specifically the only one that could be an issue is Snarl Suicune to bother Sub Cube and Heattom. I still have Virizion though, who is an excellent Suicune answer. With Taunt to stop Tailwind and Justified to discourage/punish snarl, there isn't much Suicune can do. DD gyarados could be an issue but this is a problem only made worse by swapping Virizion for Amoonguss, that being said there aren't too many situations where I can see Gyarados DDing on this team.
Iron Plate Aegislash sounds like it could be a good pick, it does slightly worsen my matchup in Trick Room but I could give it a go.
If suicune has snarl virizion is a counter, if it doesnt have snarl kyurem is a counter, either way rotom heat can outspeed, tbolt, and take a hit after. How in the world is this not enough. Granted I'm not happy if I see my opponent has a Suicune but its hardly an unwinnable matchup.
AND EVEN IF ITS SNARL I ALSO HAVE WIDE GUARD WEAKNES POLICY AEGISLASH WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT FROM ME
It didn't cause me to lose a game or anything so it isn't a huge deal, but I found that I was relying on Rotom H to switch in to a lot of hits so I've changed to a more defensive spread
The set always OHKOs Talonflame with Thunderbolt, hits 213 to outspeed things like SUICUNE that hit 212 in order to outspeed Scarf Lando T in tailwind (and it creeps washtoms), with the rest all in spdef. Oh and 4 in Defense to always live a Hyperspace Hole from Life Orb Hoopa U. One notable benchmark this set has over the other is that it always takes 2 Zard Y Overheats in the sun. I've added this to the importable, lemme know what you think of the change!
It didn't cause me to lose a game or anything so it isn't a huge deal, but I found that I was relying on Rotom H to switch in to a lot of hits so I've changed to a more defensive spread
The set always OHKOs Talonflame with Thunderbolt, hits 213 to outspeed things like SUICUNE that hit 212 in order to outspeed Scarf Lando T in tailwind (and it creeps washtoms), with the rest all in spdef. Oh and 4 in Defense to always live a Hyperspace Hole from Life Orb Hoopa U. One notable benchmark this set has over the other is that it always takes 2 Zard Y Overheats in the sun. I've added this to the importable, lemme know what you think of the change!
tbh I would prefer the set currently going through C&C at the moment:
252 HP / 156 Def / 24 SpA / 76 SpD
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 156 Def Rotom-H: 256-303 (84.2 - 99.6%)
252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 156 Def Rotom-H: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%)
208 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 156 Def Rotom-H: 228-270 (75 - 88.8%)
You can move the SpA into Speed to hit your same speed benchmark if you'd like.
If you're using a defensive Rotom-H, it just doesn't make a ton of sense to me to have 84 SpA EVs that (I assume) don't net any special KOs.
Also on the Special bulk side
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 76+ SpD Rotom-H in Sun: 89-105 (29.2 - 34.5%)
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. 252 HP / 76+ SpD Rotom-H in Sun: 162-192 (53.2 - 63.1%)
-2 252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. 252 HP / 76+ SpD Rotom-H in Sun: 81-96 (26.6 - 31.5%)
You never die to Heat Wave + Overheat, nor Overheat + -2 Overheat. Your spread has more SpD than is necessary for that benchmark.
Kyle kept insisting I do this, and I hope people read this to get a good understanding of the teambuilding process
shaian , Stratos , and I sat down to teambuild around the concept of Mega Diancie, Life Orb Bisharp, and Stealth Rock support. I may be the compulsive stealth rock user but this was Shaian's idea I swear :)
The idea was to get certain attacks into KO range thanks to rock damage. A few relevant ones are below.
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 298-351 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Rotom-W: 278-329 (91.4 - 108.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
48 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 228 HP / 28 SpD Kyurem-B: 338-398 (75.4 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Bisharp @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Protect
Nothing much to see here. Standard basic sets as a start
Keldeo (1 more check)
Kangaskhan (2 more checks)
Zard Venu Sun (1-2 more checks)
Rain (1 more check)
Rotom-W (1 more check)
Amoonguss (2 more checks)
Kyurem-B behind a Sub (1 more check)
Heatran Behind a Sub (1 more check)
Team Member #3
Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Iron Barbs
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Atk / 72 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Power Whip
- Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
- Protect
We debated over a Rocky Helmet Amoonguss here which would help vs Rotom-W, Keldeo, Kangakhan, and Rain, but ultimately decided on Ferrothorn.
Ferrothorn is a much better answer to Rain than Amoonguss, while still maintaining the ability to fight Rotom-W and Kangaskhan. In addition this let us pick out our stealth rock user quite early.
Power Whip was prioritized over Gyro Ball on this mono-attacking set since our main goal with ferro was a rain answer and killing other water types. Power Whip still KO's kangaskhan after Helmet and Iron Barbs damage due to 2 hits from parental bond
We are just using the smogdex spread for now since I was having difficulty finding any of my ferrothorn spreads at the time, so this open to be changed if anyone has a better spread to get the job done.
Keldeo (1 more check)
Kangaskhan (1-2 more checks) Cant really go wrong with too many kangaskhan checks
Zard Venu Sun (1-2 more checks)
Rain (1 more check)
Rotom-W (1 more check)
Amoonguss (2 more checks)
Kyurem-B behind a Sub (1 more check)
Heatran Behind a Sub (1 more check)
Team Member #4
Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Swords Dance
- Protect
We were extremely concerned with Zard Venu and wanted to prioritize fixing that immediately, so we felt Talon would be a great fit. It OHKO's venusaur and can KO even bulky zard after rocks damage if it comes down to it.
Talon also helps vs Rain, Keldeo, and Amoonguss which are a lot of things across the board.
The set is standard physical dual stabs and adamant life orb, but we wanted to mess around with Swords Dance because its a cool set that Stratos has been pushing for more people to try out so we figured why not.
Swords Dance allows you to OHKO lando-t if you swords dance as they intimidate you so you can Brave Bird on the following turn.
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 333-394 (100.9 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Keldeo (0-1 more check) doesnt hurt to add another with two mons weak to it
Kangaskhan (0-1 more checks) Cant really go wrong with too many kangaskhan checks
Zard Venu Sun (0-1 more checks) Still scary so 1 more check wont hurt
Rotom-W (1 more check)
Amoonguss (1 more check)
Kyurem-B behind a Sub (1 more check)
Heatran Behind a Sub (1 more check)
Team Member #5
Latios @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Protect
We still wanted another sun check since it was still a concern and look towards Dragons that may be a good fit.
Our choice here was Latios as it adds so much to the team all across the board at this stage.
It is a secondary sun check, another rain check, keldeo check, rotom-w check, kyurem-b check, heatran check (thanks to hp ground).
Kangaskhan (0-1 more checks) Cant really go wrong with too many kangaskhan checks
Lando-T (1 more check) It can hit everything on our team for supereffective damage and even though we can work around with everything having protect and reliable switch in of ferrothorn it still wouldnt hurt to have another check.
Team Member #6
Jellicent @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Scald
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Trick Room
Stratos and I got a fetish for this rascal after using it VGC to tear through CHALK teams.
All we needed was a Kangaskhan check and Lando-t so it fits the bill. It also is a rain check, heatran check, amoonguss check (Go Goggles!).
The Trick Room option is cool since we have two priority users and ferrothorn as teammates. Bisharp is slower than a lot of offensive threats to take advantage of the speed and I have had success with Diancie on semiroom teams in the past so I felt it could work.
The spread was made by Shaian and it takes a Life Orb Aegislash Shadow Ball with the rest dumped in defense. There probably is a more optimal spread but we just wanted something for the sake of testing immediately.
Jellicent will KO Talonflame with Scald after it takes both Brave Bird and Life Orb recoil without any special attack investment.
We should be pretty good all across the board and dont see too big a hole at the forefront of the teambuilding. (Or so we thought)
Shaian proceeds to play Yellow Paint (didnt think to save replay), and we find that we have issues with opposing Ferrothorn. Even things like Kyurem-B and Heatran can still be annoying since Jellicent and Ferrothorn are bait to set up substitutes on.
We decided to just remove Jellicent in favor of Keldeo and walk the path of Hyper Offense.
Our previous team was somewhat trying to be HO but was held back by Jellicent and even Ferrothorn which made substitute users freely setup on us.
Our Keldeo set is the standard Life Orb with 2 Stabs of Secret Sword and Hydro Pump (The 3 of us all are all pumpers. Scald damage output just doesnt cut it for us.).
We had quick guard to help patch up the Talon matchup and even Thundurus matchup since Hyper Offense often struggles with those two.
Keldeo fulfills the role of Kang check and Lando-t which Jellicent brought to the team, as well as not being bait for substitute users like Kyurem-B and Heatran
Mega Diancie could potentially be a problem. We could opt for speed control on one of our last 3 members since they all have access to it but its still up to be tested.
Team Member #4 Revised
Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Steel Wing
- Protect
[11:01:20] @Stratos:that team auto loses to diancie + fire
[11:01:23] @Stratos:we need steel wing on talon
[11:01:28] @Stratos:or
[11:01:33] @Stratos: change keld to lando-t
[11:01:35] @Stratos: oLo
[11:01:42] @shaian: so steel wing talon it is
Pro:
- Another answer for Diancie
Con:
- Can no longer bait and setup on Lando-T switchins
We are just changing our Talonflame set to Steel Wing here. The Diancie matchup is quite problematic since all our Heatran checks(Diancie, Latios, Keldeo) either are slower or at best speed tie with opposing Mega Diancie, which isnt something we are comfortable with. So Diancie + Heatran would be quite a problem for our team without the change, and the change only mitigates it a bit.
Mega Diancie could still potentially be a problem. We turned Talonflame into a Diancie check so we have other options than relying on speed ties to beat Diancie + Heatran, but we still have to play very carefully in the Diancie matchup.
For those of you who may not be used to using Stealth Rocks, below I have linked a few calcs on what it lets the team do, as well as other useful Calcs relevant to playing with the team.
Mega Diancie
1. 48 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 228 HP / 28 SpD Kyurem-B: 338-398 (75.4 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
2. 208 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 244 HP / 164 Def Thundurus: 302-356 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Bisharp
1. +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 298-351 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
2. +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Rotom-W: 278-329 (91.4 - 108.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
3. 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 307-367 (94.7 - 113.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4. 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 307-367 (94.7 - 113.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
5. 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 259-305 (93.5 - 110.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Ferrothorn
1. 172+ Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 160-190 (45.5 - 54.1%) > the 5/12 Health that Kangaskhan has left after attacking into Iron Barbs and Helmet
Talonflame
1. +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 333-394 (100.9 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
2. 252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Mega Charizard Y: 231-274 (64.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Latios
1. 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Rotom-W: 251-296 (82.5 - 97.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (a little more chip damage is nice to guarantee this)
2. 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 361-429 (83.5 - 99.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (This is not a guaranteed KO on this and relaxed amonguss either so get some chip damage)
3. 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Mega Charizard Y: 192-227 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (No risk of miss or -2 drop)
Keldeo
1. 252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 361-429 (80.5 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Do not treat the above as if the team is reliant on Stealth Rocks because it is not. Stealth Rock simply opens a few doors that werent initially available.
The Final Squad
And thats our final product. Yes the team on the forefront looks like pretty standard Hyper Offense, but we tried to make a team where we felt stealth rock would shine and this team does just that.
Some people may build teams by slapping a bunch of solid mons and call it a day, but the step-by-step teambuilding process was very important to the creation of this team so we hope people read and learn from it because that's why I spent over an hour writing this
Changes since posting:
1. Made Talonflame Steel Wing instead of Swords Dance. The Diancie mirror isnt kind and the full reasoning is above as Team Member #4 Revised
edit: Team Member #4 Revised
Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Steel Wing
- Protect
[11:01:20] @Stratos:that team auto loses to diancie + fire
[11:01:23] @Stratos:we need steel wing on talon
[11:01:28] @Stratos:or
[11:01:33] @Stratos: change keld to lando-t
[11:01:35] @Stratos: oLo
[11:01:42] @shaian: so steel wing talon it is
Pro:
- Another answer for Diancie
Con:
- Can no longer bait and setup on Lando-T switchins
Lando-t can be annoying to a lot of members individually but with all 6 of our pokemon having protect, we can scout out what it does and can operate accordingly with our team depending on what it locks into. (If they end up not being scarf then Latios and Keldeo can outspeed and OHKO with Draco Meteor and Hydro Pump respectively)
3 rock slide resists, 2 eq immunities, 2 superpower resists (probably shouldnt throw talon out there but Lati is still good for this), and if they lock into U-Turn you generally can relax unless they U-Turn on the latios.
Ferrothorn overall is a good switch in to Lando-T as well, since they generally dont lock into superpower unless they can hit something hard for super effective damage that is already on the field at move selection.
edit: Team Member #4 Revised
Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Steel Wing
- Protect
[11:01:20] @Stratos:that team auto loses to diancie + fire
[11:01:23] @Stratos:we need steel wing on talon
[11:01:28] @Stratos:or
[11:01:33] @Stratos: change keld to lando-t
[11:01:35] @Stratos: oLo
[11:01:42] @shaian: so steel wing talon it is
Pro:
- Another answer for Diancie
Con:
- Can no longer bait and setup on Lando-T switchins
updated with this change. The Diancie matchup is a concern since all our Heatran checks(Diancie, Latios, Keldeo) either are slower or at best speed tie with opposing Mega Diancie, which isnt something we are comfortable with. So Diancie + Heatran would be quite a problem for our team without the change, and the change mitigates it a bit.
I know it's not popular but could steel wing talon be a huge threat to this composition? or even just talon+something that kills diancie + is faster like serperior or greninja or even a slower diancie check like washtom?
I get the quick guard but that seems rather loose (or maybe I just never liked quick guard keldeo)
And how do you feel about the mu vs offensive thundurus? Especially something like maxspeed flash cannon with twave
Also faced this team earlier and stealth rocks fucked me :(
woudnt lando t be better over keld? you have your lando switch in, intimidate (-1 lando cant ohko diancie etc), move to ohko/do big dmg to kang. it gives you a secondary talon check and better match up vs terrak. you probably want scarf since you have no speedcontrol, but life orb is also an option
I'm going to post every Kyurem team some time after I build it
some are serious, some are just fun, some just suck. I'll try some new megas as well and post them here after I build them
I added a star rating which is just my opinion on the viability in todays metagame
feel free to pm me any questions about teams
★★★★★
Slowbro-Mega @ Slowbronite
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Psychic
- Calm Mind
- Slack Off
Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Brave Bird
- Steel Wing
- U-turn
do you mind explaining reasons for your unorthodox choices? the thread seemed to be more geared towards going through the teambuilding process as it is about dumping teams (despite what the title suggests). I'm curious to see what Pokemon like Registeel or Slowbro-Mega really offers over other more commonly used Pokemon.