GSC In-Game Tier List

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The thing is, I feel like the Red Gyarados and Magikarp might deserve separate rankings, the main basis being availability and immediate usability. Regular Magikarp is available immediately after Falkner thanks to the Old Rod, but takes a lot of hand-holding to evolve, and even then would only contribute against maybe Chuck and Jasmine before Lake of Rage anyway if that. Red Gyarados takes much less effort, but it should be noted that it is available a bit later, and doesn't necessarily have much to contribute until you get to Kanto, except some select Members of the Elite 4 and things like the Rocket's Houndoom.

Main thing is I can't remember if you need to do the Olivine stuff before you can get to LoR.

Normal Magikarp would probably be somewhere down in the C-Ranks, since you need to be at the Red Gyarados anyway to get the EXP Share. Still, there's some difference in the two that I think warrants separate ranking.
 

Colonel M

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I want to point out that being able to solo the game does give a slightly skewered perspective. It isn't necessarily incorrect per se, but it does begin to raise questions. Perfect examples were ORAS Tailow could easily solo until Groudon / Kyogre would arrive (I think Lati@s too). A Pokemon here and there was used, but under certain circumstances Tailow could crush everything.

Even when IOS, a close friend of mine, proposed the idea I was willing to negotiate A Tailow - if it wasn't for the detour for obtaining Brave Bird. In fairness the amount of time Brave Bird could save is arguably in Tailow's favor and shouldn't be ignored. Still, in consistency with the rules I kept it currently in B. I wouldn't mind others changing my mind on it.

With Teddiursa... sure it can solo the gam, but so can just about every goddamned Normal-type. Raticate is your best example because it can cheese through some of its problematic matchups (Chuck is a rare exception maybe) and funneling everything into one Normal-type Pokemon equates to a souped up Return. But the more that is soloed the easier it is to obtain a more efficient time. Then we have to barter with ourselves more on situations that, at times, are inefficient. Waiting for Return could easily be seen as inefficient unless you force the clock on Sunday for example and bumrush as quickly as possible.

To help satisfy IAR and DHR - I did not raise Teddiursa C simply on the solo factor. I took into account its Exp growth (which is good even if you catch it late), its movepool (which is great for a Normal-type), and other factors like its somewhat average evolution level (though made up with 130 base Attack and workable other stats) and what it would eventually contribute throughout the game. I -might have- been rash to raise it to A based on its awkward catching. I could argue that it may be worthwhile to capture it a little later and baby it a little.
 
Wow you people only theorymon huh? I couldn't solo the game at all with Raticate, it is to damn weak. Also it has no way getting past Forretress.

Do you here just talk out of your ass or tried things out?
 

Colonel M

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Given the current argument presented by Hiddenfreezer - I guess I will drop Abra to A seeing as it struggles against Karen's Umbreon and also lacks a real way to attack until it evolves to Kadabra. Thus it lacks solo capability.

This is why we don't base solely on soloing the damned game. It still gives a skewered perspective and doesn't really represent a Pokemon's capability all the damned time.

FFS Teiddursa C is already A. I'm merely opening the possibility of it being B because catching it is a huge pain in the ass. I remember catching mons like Phanpy in C and smashing my head against the Gameboy for a good while since it was so rare AND it fled often.
 
This is why we don't base solely on soloing the damned game. It still gives a skewered perspective and doesn't really represent a Pokemon's capability all the damned time.
What I was trying to say is people are like Raticate can solo but that's obviously only theorymon and talk out of the ass, it won't work at all, while I solo'ed with Ursaring. It has nothing to do with Kadabra, my point was: Don't imagine things without trying it out.
Maybe you forgot that I actually had Raticate and that fellah struggled with Piloswine, which was really pathetic.


Also Hypnosis is really important, I guess you didn't do that for Phanpy too, huh? A bit more strategy for tried Urn's won't hurt
 

Colonel M

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Nice strawman. I actually had Jigglypuff Sing for it and still had a rough time.

But I digress the hell do I know right? Not like you couldn't Super Fang through the Forretress if we were desperate on the solo.
 

Xen

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Did anyone test if sleeping wild Pokemon can still flee yet? But regardless if they do or not, I still think Crystal Teddiursa is a B-rank mon. Keep in mind that Crystal doesn't have the luxury of a early game Jigglypuff, meaning you have to use Gastly as a sleep-inducer (if sleeping Pokemon don't flee). Problem with that is Gastly only shows up in the Sprout Tower at night while Teddiursa only shows up in the morning in Dark Cave, meaning you'll either have to screw with the game clock, or will have to wait for a few hours to catch Teddiursa.

Even if time isn't the issue, you still have to put up with a low 5% encounter rate on an already short period of time. Teddiursa's catch rate is also pretty low as far as regular Poke Balls are concerned, and once it wakes up, it's gone. To make matters worse, Gastly can't touch Teddiursa at all, meaning you have to use up a turn switching if you plan on actually damaging it for capture.

Regardless if sleep does or doesn't help with catching it, Teddiursa's simply a big pain in the ass to go out of your way to catch. It's a good Pokemon if you get lucky with finding it on your first visit in Dark Cave, but GSC has loads of good Normal types to use that are far easier to catch; some that are arguably better than Teddiursa (Lv 30 evolution kinda sucks in this game).

Edit: I also want to give a friendly reminder that Hypnosis has bad accuracy; you'll probably be seeing some 1st turn flees because of a miss.
 
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atsync

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If sleep does prevent fleeing, Gastly is pretty much the main choice for a sleeper if you're going to go for Teddiursa ASAP. Hoothoot and Bellsprout take too long to learn it. The fact that Gastly is nocturnal while Teddiursa is morning-only is a bit inconvenient but you can change the time to get around this.

Anyway, I'll admit that I'm coming around to the idea of Crystal Teddiursa going down to B-tier. I'll admit that I may have gotten lucky when I used it since I got it fairly quickly, but now that I've looked at the encounter rate, flee chance and catch rate, I can definitely understand why placing it too high would be an issue. Sleep would certainly be helpful, but I don't think it removes the problem entirely mostly due to accuracy issues.

In any case it seems that there is a bit of opposition to it going to A and honestly I'd prefer to default to the lower tier in a borderline case like this. It's better to under-estimate a Pokemon than over-estimate a Pokemon!

Of the "contentious" Pokemon Colonel M listed before, I'd say that Ho-oh/Lugia/Suicune dropping to B are the ones I feel most strongly about.
 
What I was trying to say is people are like Raticate can solo but that's obviously only theorymon and talk out of the ass, it won't work at all, while I solo'ed with Ursaring. It has nothing to do with Kadabra, my point was: Don't imagine things without trying it out.
Maybe you forgot that I actually had Raticate and that fellah struggled with Piloswine, which was really pathetic.


Also Hypnosis is really important, I guess you didn't do that for Phanpy too, huh? A bit more strategy for tried Urn's won't hurt
I might be wrong, but wasn't you the one who posted a bunch of gifs of your Solo Teddiursa's run? In any case, that Teddiursa was ridiculously overleveled. Forget Raticate, I'd be able to solo the game with any Normal-type with levels like that.

Don't forget the introductory paragraph, this isn't about soloing the game.

Despite the fact that Teddiursa can rip through the game, it's a pokémon with a strict catching time (Morning), low encounter rate (5%), has a high chance to flee (50% iirc), appears in a time where resources like pokéballs are limited (not enough money to be wasting balls), it's ridiculously slow, even after evolving (Confuse Ray/Supersonic shenanigans anyone? Even Falkner disrupts it with Mud-Slap.)...
Oh, and not to mention Gastly can't do anything to help with catching it aside from landing Hypnosis. No Night Shade to help weakening it for the catch.

With that said, Teddiursa has a bunch of factors that can't be reliably influenced and disrupt an efficient run. We knocked down the Nidos (in part) due to the backtrack required to get a Moon Stone, I don't see why we can't knock Teddiursa down to B.

Lugia and Ho-Oh could drop too. They're annoying to catch due to Recover+Safeguard shenanigans and require a massive detour. (Whirl Islands anyone?)

Suicune on the other hand, doesn't require any backtracking aside from a quick flight to Ecruteak. Much more feasible. It also comes at a high level and pretty much ready for Clair with only one level. After that, it roflstomps Lance and helps with the E4 and Kanto. Suicune can stay, even though anyone should have a Water-type in the team when it appears. Lugia and Ho-Oh should drop.

Miltank and Tauros are easily good enough for A. I don't even see how they could be contested.

I think that directly referring to the Red Gyarados in the tier list is better than referring to Magikarp. Magikarp has a lot of issues that render it unviable and the Red Gyarados is a whole other beast that doesn't even appear as a Magikarp. I'd vote to change it just to avoid confusion. No one should capture a Magikarp early in Johto for whatever reason.

Regarding the Red Gyarados' performance, it's pretty decent, but I don't think it has what it takes to be an A tier.
We'd be comparing it to things like Tauros (Just one of the best Normal-types in-game) and Spearow (The best Flying-type in-game.)
Meanwhile, Gyarados has to use moves coming off its worse offensive stat and no Flying Stabs or moves better than Thrash to work off its Attack. I dunno. Can't see it being A, but it always comes with good IV's due to being Shiny, so you might get lucky with Hidden Power I guess...
 

Colonel M

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Okay. I'm coming in to be that guy.

So this morning I decided to catch Teddiursa. Well, one -minor- problem. I never caught a Gastly nor a Poliwag (which can be caught in tall grass in Crystal, mind) so I had to consider other options. I did have access to Great Balls.

What this means for Teddiursa and its capture rate, you may ask?

It improves so that it's cost is mitigated somewhat. The only real cost aside from tracking it down is obtaining a Great Ball - I seem to have two after getting the first badge so I assume it isn't horrible to conclude. I even caught Teddy on the first try with a Great Ball and no Hypnosis.

Suffice to say - this probably would keep it out of B with its capture rate. As for performance... I will peek a bit on its non-solo performance. I would lean towards it contributes well enough to stay A, but it is flawed in Speed and Normal doesn't really have resistances like Golem does.
 
Hi guys, long-time lurker, first-time poster here.

I noticed you were talking about Crystal Teddiursa, and I would want to add an information that I didn't see being mentioned in this thread so far : you can actually catch Ursaring immediatly after getting Surf at a fairly high level for that part of the game (lvl 25 or 30). If you enter the Dark Cave on the Violet City side and use surf you can access a small part of the Blackthorn City side, and there are Ursarings on that side (they only appear during the day I think, but they are not too rare and they don't flee at least).

Sure, you miss on the early game part and some potential happiness for Return abuse, but this can be remedied with a friend ball and Ursaring is so overpowered compared to Teddiursa that I think it should be considered in Teddiursa/Ursaring tiering. In my case, I never bothered with morning-only, fleeing Teddiursa and always went for the lvl 30 Ursaring that break the game (you can use the repel trick to get one quickly I think).
 

Colonel M

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That's a very good point actually.

It appears that Boards' post has merit to it. I looked at the map for Dark Cave just in case, and confirmed with Serebii this is a true statement.

http://www.serebii.net/pokearth/johto/2nd/darkcave.shtml#gs-route45

Another thing is it appears that it can be caught both in the Morning AND Daytime. I cannot confirm the Daytime; however, it is still a relevant point to make.

Now we have a few possible scenarios for Teddiursa.

Option 1) Use Hypnosis, Follow with Pokeballs

Poliwag and Gastly are your best bets. Unfortunately, both require almost polar times (night for both Poliwag and Gastly, Morning for Teddiursa). Hypnosis has a 60% chance to fail as well, so there is the possibility of a flee.

Option 2) Wait for a Great Ball

Perhaps a little more backtracking required (and possible save reset every now and then).

Option 3) Ursaring

Again this one requires a rather large detour. But the advantage of having Ursaring by that point is still nice. A bit less welcome that late though.

I think for the most part the choices would be 2 > 1 > 3 (you can gamble with Hypnosis all you want - I'll just throw the damned Great Ball instead). 2 only requires a smaller detour.
 
I do agree that 'ursa's unevolved performance doesn't justify all the effort to catch him early on. With a Great Ball, you only have a 28% chance to catch it @ 100% HP. It's a bit extreme, being a 1/20 encounter that will fail ~3/4 of the time. There's a 1,4% chance that your next Dark Cave encounter will be Teddiursa and you'll catch it (that's also assuming it'll always run on the 2nd turn). Don't they escape on the 1st turn sometimes too, or am I thinking of the legendaries?

He should be punished for the availability problems; the only question is how severely.
 

Colonel M

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Either way - A Great Ball is something I feel is going to increase your chances to the point that, after Hypnosis, capture rate should not be a huge issue.

I don't know how hard to really punish Teddy - even if you have to do a minor detour to get Ursaring. In some ways the Ursaring is much less of a headache at that point. You also have the Friend Ball at that point too if you want to go for that shenanigan. I wouldn't rely on that though.

I don't see Teddy being a huge advantage pre-Morty though. Though it loses Morty as an advantage and suddenly will face issues with Chuck, it does do well outside of that.

A good way to maybe compare is Nidorans vs Teddiursa. Let's say, for now, that catching Ursaring is more efficient than catching Teddiursa. Nidorans have an easy capture rate and join a little earlier, but their performance is sub-par. Double Kick does okay vs Whitney but it isn't that effective against Raid Bosstank. Morty is a bad fiasco for Nidos too since they lack good moves to puncture the Ghosts.

A good reason to compare Nidos and Ursa is that they both require detours for maximum potential. For Ursaring it is simply catching it. For Nidos it is the backtrack for Moon Stone.

Nidos have an easier perk with versatility in moves, but Ursaring is not lacking there. Unlike Nidos Ursaring has usable STAB moves that are not super late.

Arguably a tier difference between the two isn't impossible. After all Golduck is A and it requires a backtrack too.
 
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That's a very good point actually.

It appears that Boards' post has merit to it. I looked at the map for Dark Cave just in case, and confirmed with Serebii this is a true statement.

http://www.serebii.net/pokearth/johto/2nd/darkcave.shtml#gs-route45

Another thing is it appears that it can be caught both in the Morning AND Daytime. I cannot confirm the Daytime; however, it is still a relevant point to make.

Now we have a few possible scenarios for Teddiursa.

Option 1) Use Hypnosis, Follow with Pokeballs

Poliwag and Gastly are your best bets. Unfortunately, both require almost polar times (night for both Poliwag and Gastly, Morning for Teddiursa). Hypnosis has a 60% chance to fail as well, so there is the possibility of a flee.

Option 2) Wait for a Great Ball

Perhaps a little more backtracking required (and possible save reset every now and then).

Option 3) Ursaring

Again this one requires a rather large detour. But the advantage of having Ursaring by that point is still nice. A bit less welcome that late though.

I think for the most part the choices would be 2 > 1 > 3 (you can gamble with Hypnosis all you want - I'll just throw the damned Great Ball instead). 2 only requires a smaller detour.
That's pretty much it if anyone wants an Ursaring.

Regarding Option 1, I've told my opinion about it. Huge Gamble that more often than not winds up as a waste of time. Just not really good enough.

Option 2 on the other hand is what I call the Abra Gimmick. "OMG it's a Teddiursa! Quick! Throw balls at it before it runs away!" Works. Sort of. If Teddiursa was more common I'd say it's kinda viable. However, unless we're talking about backtracking, we can have at best 2 Great Balls (Where did you find them again?) and it's pretty much the same chance or even less than getting it with Hypnosis before Falkner.

Now Option 3 could be very interesting. Ursaring comes at the same level as your team (If not Higher) after beating Morty, and is a complete beast. Its pretty much the same as a trained one except for the Ev's and early game performance.
However, while going back from Ecruteak to Violet is pretty easy (5 minutes tops with the bike) Dark Cave is a whole other thing. Don't forget the repels. Ursaring compensates by being at a higher level than Tauros and Miltank.

With the addition of Mid-Game Ursaring, I vote for A.

Teddiursa can be captured either early with many gambles and difficulty or after Morty at a stupid high level compared to what you'll find in the wild at that point (level 25-30 compared to what, 16 for Tauros? Can't remember it well.) That versatility in availability is pretty much what we needed to break the stalemate in this discussion. If Tauros and Miltank are A, I can't really see a reason beyond backtracking for Ursaring to not be A as well.


Edit: Is there anything else that needs some testing? I could make a test run for this, got really curious about Ursaring. If anyone wants something else tested just post it. I'm thinking about checking out Fearow and Red Gyarados too, but having to carry Spearow until after Morty would be pretty much soloing.
 
So it's been ages since this game has been out. Hell it's even had a remake about 5 years ago. Crazy that GSC was released about 14-15 years ago too. Anyway, Ender starting this about a year ago and sadly didn't finish this. So I decided to ask him to pick it up and see what I can't do to continue this and get it uploaded.

To do list:
- Add sprites / pictures
- Possibly create another tier
- Separate mons based on which carts they are available on (i.e. Mantine is Gold / Crystal only)

Without further ado:



Pokemon Gold / Silver / Crystal
In-Game Tier List Discussion
What is an in-game tier list?

In-game tier lists rank Pokemon based on effectiveness and usefulness throughout an entire playthrough. An entire playthrough, in the case of GSC, is classified from the very start of the game until you defeat Red up top on Mt. Silver. In-game tier lists rank Pokemon from an efficient playthrough based off of real-time.

What are the tiers?

In this tier list we currently have six tiers. Tiers are based off of the following:

S Tier
A Tier
B Tier
C Tier
D Tier
E Tier
Untiered

The tier list is alphabetized for ease of reading. The higher tier a Pokemon is the more it contributes within an efficient playthrough. Pokemon classified as Untiered are Pokemon that are unobtainable outside of the games.

Why is a Pokémon in a certain tier?

Pokemon are ranked under the following 5 criteria:

Availability - Based on how early and probability that the Pokemon is found in the game. Does it require backtracking, HM moves, or other specific requirements such as constant searching? A Pokemon found earlier and with little effort is often better than those found later in the game.

Typing - A Pokemon's typing can be critical for an efficiency playthrough. How does the typing match-up work against the entire game? If a Pokemon has better typing it is often considered a higher rank.

Stats - A Pokemon's stat distribution is important for a Pokemon's success. Does the Pokemon have a stat distribution that compliments the Pokemon's movepool and typing? If a Pokemon has a stat distribution that favors its typing and movepool it will often be higher on the tier list. In general a Pokemon that is often slower than it is faster will be ranked lower on a tier list.

Movepool - A Pokemon's movepool (both Level-up and TM/HM) are crucial for a Pokemon. What moves does the Pokemon naturally get and can possibly obtain? Moves that require usage of rare TMs often have high opportunity costs and cannot be guaranteed on the Pokemon unless it has a very good reason to use the TM (such as having STAB or a high offensive stat).

Major Battles - Major battles consist of Gym Leaders, Team Rocket encounters, Rival encounters, the Elite 4, and Red. How does the Pokemon contribute to major battles? A Pokemon that contributes to many major battles will often be seen higher than those that do not.

What tools are allowed for the player to use?

The player is allowed to use any legitimate means within the cartridge for completing the game efficiently. This excludes exploits such as the cloning glitch and the Celebi glitch. The player is only allowed to trade to evolve Pokemon and not to receive outside help otherwise. The player is allowed to use items such as X Items, Potions, TMs, and Berries. Bear in mind that items have opportunity costs associated with them and can still contribute to a Pokemon negatively if it requires a multitude of items. Though X Items are implied that they can be used, please refrain from using them in arguments until this thread is settled. You are free to add notes about X Items; however, they will not be considered until the issue is cleared.

Note that Pokemon are not penalized for being outclassed by something in a much higher tier. For example, Cyndaquil does not penalize Growlithe in a Growlithe vs Oddish comparison.

Tier List Key

() will signify a note for that Pokemon.

  • (C) - Pokemon is ranked based off of Pokemon Crystal.
  • (S) - Pokemon is ranked based off of Pokemon Silver.
  • (G) - Pokemon is ranked based off of Pokemon Gold.
  • (GS) - Pokemon is ranked based off of Pokemon Gold and Silver.
  • (GC) - Pokemon is ranked based off of Pokemon Gold and Crystal.
  • (SC) - Pokemon is ranked based off of Pokemon Silver and Crystal.
  • (Trade) - Pokemon is ranked based off of trading for its evolution.
  • (No Trade) - Pokemon is ranked based off of no trade accessible to the player (this does not include in-game trades).
  • * - Possible tier placement that can change based off of RNG scenarios.

Note that Pokemon may be listed multiple times for this reason. This also includes instances with Smoochum (C) and Jynx. Also note that if a Pokemon cannot be caught in a certain version that it is implied that the Pokemon is ranked based off of the version it is available only (will probably change this once everything is settled in).
S Tier:
- Abra (Trade)
- Abra (No Trade)
- Totodile

A Tier:
- Cyndaquil
- Gastly (Trade)
- Geodude (Trade)
- Geodude (No Trade)
- Ho-oh (G)
- Lugia (S)
- Magikarp
- Magmar (GS)
- Miltank
- Nidoran F
- Nidoran M
- Psyduck
- Spearow
- Suicune (C)
- Tauros
- Teddiursa (C)
- Wooper

B Tier:
- Chikorita
- Chinchou
- Jynx
- Lapras
- Machop (Trade)
- Mareep (GS)
- Poliwag (Poliwrath)
- Poliwag (Trade)
- Seel
- Slowpoke (Slowbro)
- Slowpoke (Slowking)
- Stantler
- Sudowoodo
- Tentacool
- Zubat

C Tier:
- Cubone (C)
- Doduo
- Drowzee
- Eevee (Espeon)
- Eevee (Umbreon)
- Elekid (C)
- Goldeen
- Growlithe (C)
- Heracross
- Ho-oh (S)
- Hoothoot
- Horsea (Trade)
- Jigglypuff
- Krabby
- Lugia (GC)
- Machop (No Trade)
- Magby (C)
- Magnemite
- Mankey (GS)
- Mantine
- Marill (C)
- Oddish (Bellossom)
- Onix (Trade)
- Pidgey
- Pinsir
- Poliwag (No Trade)
- Qwilfish
- Rattata
- Remoraid (GS)
- Sandshrew
- Scyther (Trade)
- Scyther (No Trade)
- Sentret
- Skarmory (SC)
- Smoochum (C)
- Snorlax
- Snubbull
- Teddiursa (G)
- Tyrogue (C)
- Venonat

D Tier:
- Aipom
- Bellsprout
- Caterpie
- Cleffa (C)
- Dratini
- Dunsparce
- Eevee (Flareon)
- Eevee (Jolteon)
- Eevee (Vaporeon)
- Ekans
- Entei*
- Exeggcute
- Farfetch'd
- Girafarig (GS)
- Gligar (GC)
- Growlithe (G)
- Hoppip
- Horsea (No Trade)
- Igglybuff (C)
- Koffing
- Lickitung
- Marill (GS)
- Meowth
- Natu
- Oddish (Vileplume)
- Onix
- Paras
- Phanpy (SC)
- Pichu (C)
- Pineco
- Ponyta
- Raikou*
- Rhyhorn
- Shellder
- Sneasel (C)
- Spinirak (GC)
- Staryu
- Suicune (GS)
- Sunkern
- Swinub
- Tangela
- Togepi
- Voltorb
- Vulpix (S)
- Weedle

E Tier:
- Aerodactyl
- Chansey
- Clefairy
- Corsola
- Cubone (GS)
- Delibird (SC)
- Diglett
- Ditto
- Electabuzz
- Grimer
- Ho-oh (C)
- Houndour
- Kangaskhan
- Larvitar
- Ledyba (SC)
- Magmar (C)
- Misdreavous
- Mr. Mime
- Murkrow
- Pikachu
- Porygon
- Shuckle
- Slugma
- Smeargle
- Sneasel (GS)
- Tyrogue (GS)
- Unown
- Wobbuffet
- Yanma

Untiered:
- Articuno
- Bulbasaur
- Celebi
- Charmander
- Kabuto
- Mew
- Mewtwo
- Moltres
- Omanyte
- Squirtle
- Zapdos


Discussion

Discussion is currently focused on S and A Tier Pokemon only at this time. We will discuss other tiered Pokemon as we move along.

Write-Ups

As custom for tier lists we eventually write up a small segment for each Pokemon and then upload the tier list to our database on Smogon's website. Write-ups should look like this:

Code:
[IMG]<Crystal Sprite Image URL>[/IMG]
[B]Name
Availability:[/B] When does this Pokémon become available? Is it easy or hard to encounter?
[B]Stats:[/B] Describe how a Pokémon's stats make it excel. Is it a deadly sweeper or a strong wall? Discuss why you would use this Pokemon thank to its stats.
[B]Typing:[/B] Discuss this Pokémon's typing in a sentence or two. Is its STAB efficient or not, does it have any great resistances or glaring weaknesses?
[B]Movepool:[/B] Describe this Pokémon's movepool in a few sentences. Does it have many effective movepool options through level up? Is it over reliant on TM's to function? Does it have access to useful HM's to help you traverse the region?
[B]Major Battles:[/B] Describe how the Pokémon handles the major opponents throughout the game. Notable opponents and battles include the Gym Leaders, battles against various members of Team Rocket, the various rival battles, the Elite Four themselves, the Champion, and Red.
[B]Additional Comments:[/B] Discuss any miscellaneous information not covered in other sections here. Factors such as experience growth, abilities, and other lesser characteristics can be discussed here. The entry can be wrapped up here as well.
Wow, THANK you for the job. This is the THREAD i really was looking for. Please can you check my thread? I need some advices :)

- link: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen2-in-game-team-for-a-gold-run.3584449/
 
Edit: Is there anything else that needs some testing? I could make a test run for this, got really curious about Ursaring. If anyone wants something else tested just post it. I'm thinking about checking out Fearow and Red Gyarados too, but having to carry Spearow until after Morty would be pretty much soloing.
There's a free Spearow available as soon as you reach Goldenrod. It's only Lv10 and loses it's advantage over the Azalea Gym. However, it levels up very quickly and should do just fine for you.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Bump. A discussion in the Unpopular Opinions thread reminded me of this.

Chikorita seriously needs to drop to C or even D. It has no good matchups for important fights (bar Chuck, and even then Chikorita's only good agaisnt one of his Pokémon) until Kanto, and once you're at Kanto you've already won. It's also stuck with Razor Leaf for STAB until you get Giga Drain from Erika, which is only marginally better; compare Totodile getting Surf super early and Cyndaquil learning Flame Wheel by level up.

There's also the huge opportunity cost of not getting the other, much better and more consistent, starters in favor of a Pokémon that seems to be an active detriment to an efficient run.
 
Last edited:

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
he returns

S Tier:
Abra (Trade)
Abra (No Trade)
Totodile
A Tier:
Cyndaquil
Gastly (Trade)
Geodude (Trade)
Geodude (No Trade)
Ho-oh (G)
Lugia (S)
Magikarp
Magmar (GS)
Miltank
Nidoran F
Nidoran M
Psyduck
Spearow
Suicune (C)
Tauros
Teddiursa (C)
Wooper
B Tier:
Chikorita
Chinchou
Jynx
Lapras
Machop (Trade)
Mareep (GS)
Poliwag (Poliwrath)
Poliwag (Trade)
Seel
Slowpoke (Slowbro)
Slowpoke (Slowking)
Stantler
Sudowoodo
Tentacool
Zubat
C Tier:
Cubone (C)
Doduo
Drowzee
Eevee (Espeon)
Eevee (Umbreon)
Elekid (C)
Goldeen
Growlithe (C)
Heracross
Ho-oh (S)
Hoothoot
Horsea (Trade)
Jigglypuff
Krabby
Lugia (GC)
Machop (No Trade)
Magby (C)
Magnemite
Mankey (GS)
Mantine
Marill (C)
Oddish (Bellossom)
Onix (Trade)
Pidgey
Pinsir
Poliwag (No Trade)
Qwilfish
Rattata
Remoraid (GS)
Sandshrew
Scyther (Trade)
Scyther (No Trade)
Sentret
Skarmory (SC)
Smoochum (C)
Snorlax
Snubbull
Teddiursa (G)
Tyrogue (C)
Venonat
D Tier:
Aipom
Bellsprout
Caterpie
Cleffa (C)
Dratini
Dunsparce
Eevee (Flareon)
Eevee (Jolteon)
Eevee (Vaporeon)
Ekans
Entei*
Exeggcute
Farfetch'd
Girafarig (GS)
Gligar (GC)
Growlithe (G)
Hoppip
Horsea (No Trade)
Igglybuff (C)
Koffing
Lickitung
Marill (GS)
Meowth
Natu
Oddish (Vileplume)
Onix (No Trade)
Paras
Phanpy (SC)
Pichu (C)
Pineco
Ponyta
Raikou*
Rhyhorn
Shellder
Sneasel (C)
Spinarak (GC)
Staryu
Suicune (GS)
Sunkern
Swinub
Tangela
Togepi
Voltorb
Vulpix (S)
Weedle
E Tier:
Aerodactyl
Chansey
Clefairy
Corsola
Cubone (GS)
Delibird (SC)
Diglett
Ditto
Electabuzz
Grimer
Ho-oh (C)
Houndour
Kangaskhan
Larvitar
Ledyba (SC)
Magmar (C)
Misdreavus
Mr. Mime
Murkrow
Pikachu
Porygon
Shuckle
Slugma
Smeargle
Sneasel (GS)
Tyrogue (GS)
Unown
Wobbuffet
Yanma
Untiered:
Articuno
Bulbasaur
Celebi
Charmander
Kabuto
Mew
Mewtwo
Moltres
Omanyte
Squirtle
Zapdos

[hide=S Tier]
[B]S Tier:[/B]
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/alakazam.png[/IMG] Abra (Trade)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/abra.png[/IMG] Abra (No Trade)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/totodile.png[/IMG] Totodile[/hide][hide=A Tier]
[B]A Tier:[/B]
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/cyndaquil.png[/IMG] Cyndaquil
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/gengar.png[/IMG] Gastly (Trade)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/golem.png[/IMG] Geodude (Trade)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/geodude.png[/IMG] Geodude (No Trade)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/hooh.png[/IMG] Ho-oh (G)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/lugia.png[/IMG] Lugia (S)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/magikarp.png[/IMG] Magikarp
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/magmar.png[/IMG] Magmar (GS)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/miltank.png[/IMG] Miltank
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/nidoranf.png[/IMG] Nidoran F
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/nidoranm.png[/IMG] Nidoran M
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/psyduck.png[/IMG] Psyduck
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/spearow.png[/IMG] Spearow
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/suicune.png[/IMG] Suicune (C)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/tauros.png[/IMG] Tauros
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/teddiursa.png[/IMG] Teddiursa (C)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/wooper.png[/IMG] Wooper[/hide][hide=B Tier][B]B Tier:[/B]
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/chikorita.png[/IMG] Chikorita
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/chinchou.png[/IMG] Chinchou
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/jynx.png[/IMG] Jynx
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/lapras.png[/IMG] Lapras
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/machamp.png[/IMG] Machop (Trade)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/mareep.png[/IMG] Mareep (GS)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/poliwrath.png[/IMG] Poliwag (Poliwrath)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/politoed.png[/IMG] Poliwag (Trade)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/seel.png[/IMG] Seel
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/slowbro.png[/IMG] Slowpoke (Slowbro)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/slowking.png[/IMG] Slowpoke (Slowking)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/stantler.png[/IMG] Stantler
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/sudowoodo.png[/IMG] Sudowoodo
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/tentacool.png[/IMG] Tentacool
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/zubat.png[/IMG] Zubat[/hide][hide=C Tier][B]C Tier:[/B]
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/cubone.png[/IMG] Cubone (C)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/doduo.png[/IMG] Doduo
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/drowzee.png[/IMG] Drowzee
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/espeon.png[/IMG] Eevee (Espeon)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/umbreon.png[/IMG] Eevee (Umbreon)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/elekid.png[/IMG] Elekid (C)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/goldeen.png[/IMG] Goldeen
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/growlithe.png[/IMG] Growlithe (C)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/heracross.png[/IMG] Heracross
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/hooh.png[/IMG] Ho-oh (S)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/hoothoot.png[/IMG] Hoothoot
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/kingdra.png[/IMG] Horsea (Trade)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/jigglypuff.png[/IMG] Jigglypuff
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/krabby.png[/IMG] Krabby
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/lugia.png[/IMG] Lugia (GC)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/machop.png[/IMG] Machop (No Trade)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/magby.png[/IMG] Magby (C)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/magnemite.png[/IMG] Magnemite
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/mankey.png[/IMG] Mankey (GS)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/mantine.png[/IMG] Mantine
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/marill.png[/IMG] Marill (C)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/bellossom.png[/IMG] Oddish (Bellossom)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/steelix.png[/IMG] Onix (Trade)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/pidgey.png[/IMG] Pidgey
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/pinsir.png[/IMG] Pinsir
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/poliwag.png[/IMG] Poliwag (No Trade)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/qwilfish.png[/IMG] Qwilfish
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/rattata.png[/IMG] Rattata
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/remoraid.png[/IMG] Remoraid (GS)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/sandshrew.png[/IMG] Sandshrew
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/scizor.png[/IMG] Scyther (Trade)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/scyther.png[/IMG] Scyther (No Trade)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/sentret.png[/IMG] Sentret
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/skarmory.png[/IMG] Skarmory (SC)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/smoochum.png[/IMG] Smoochum (C)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/snorlax.png[/IMG] Snorlax
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/snubbull.png[/IMG] Snubbull
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/teddiursa.png[/IMG] Teddiursa (G)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/tyrogue.png[/IMG] Tyrogue (C)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/venonat.png[/IMG] Venonat[/hide][hide=D Tier][B]D Tier:[/B]
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/aipom.png[/IMG] Aipom
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/bellsprout.png[/IMG] Bellsprout
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/caterpie.png[/IMG] Caterpie
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/cleffa.png[/IMG] Cleffa (C)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/dratini.png[/IMG] Dratini
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/dunsparce.png[/IMG] Dunsparce
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/flareon.png[/IMG] Eevee (Flareon)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/jolteon.png[/IMG] Eevee (Jolteon)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/vaporeon.png[/IMG] Eevee (Vaporeon)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/ekans.png[/IMG] Ekans
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/entei.png[/IMG] Entei*
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/exeggcute.png[/IMG] Exeggcute
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/farfetchd.png[/IMG] Farfetch'd
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/girafarig.png[/IMG] Girafarig (GS)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/gligar.png[/IMG] Gligar (GC)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/growlithe.png[/IMG] Growlithe (G)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/hoppip.png[/IMG] Hoppip
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/horsea.png[/IMG] Horsea (No Trade)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/igglybuff.png[/IMG] Igglybuff (C)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/koffing.png[/IMG] Koffing
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/lickitung.png[/IMG] Lickitung
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/marill.png[/IMG] Marill (GS)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/meowth.png[/IMG] Meowth
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/natu.png[/IMG] Natu
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/vileplume.png[/IMG] Oddish (Vileplume)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/onix.png[/IMG] Onix (No Trade)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/paras.png[/IMG] Paras
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/phanpy.png[/IMG] Phanpy (SC)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/pichu.png[/IMG] Pichu (C)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/pineco.png[/IMG] Pineco
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/ponyta.png[/IMG] Ponyta
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/raikou.png[/IMG] Raikou*
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/rhyhorn.png[/IMG] Rhyhorn
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/shellder.png[/IMG] Shellder
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/sneasel.png[/IMG] Sneasel (C)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/spinarak.png[/IMG] Spinarak (GC)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/staryu.png[/IMG] Staryu
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/suicune.png[/IMG] Suicune (GS)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/sunkern.png[/IMG] Sunkern
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/swinub.png[/IMG] Swinub
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/tangela.png[/IMG] Tangela
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/togepi.png[/IMG] Togepi
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/voltorb.png[/IMG] Voltorb
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/vulpix.png[/IMG] Vulpix (S)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/weedle.png[/IMG] Weedle[/hide][hide=E Tier][B]E Tier:[/B]
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/aerodactyl.png[/IMG] Aerodactyl
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/chansey.png[/IMG] Chansey
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/clefairy.png[/IMG] Clefairy
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/corsola.png[/IMG] Corsola
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/cubone.png[/IMG] Cubone (GS)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/delibird.png[/IMG] Delibird (SC)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/diglett.png[/IMG] Diglett
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/ditto.png[/IMG] Ditto
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/electabuzz.png[/IMG] Electabuzz
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/grimer.png[/IMG] Grimer
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/hooh.png[/IMG] Ho-oh (C)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/houndour.png[/IMG] Houndour
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/kangaskhan.png[/IMG] Kangaskhan
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/larvitar.png[/IMG] Larvitar
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/ledyba.png[/IMG] Ledyba (SC)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/magmar.png[/IMG] Magmar (C)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/misdreavus.png[/IMG] Misdreavus
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/mrmime.png[/IMG] Mr. Mime
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/murkrow.png[/IMG] Murkrow
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/pikachu.png[/IMG] Pikachu
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/porygon.png[/IMG] Porygon
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/shuckle.png[/IMG] Shuckle
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/slugma.png[/IMG] Slugma
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/smeargle.png[/IMG] Smeargle
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/sneasel.png[/IMG] Sneasel (GS)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/tyrogue.png[/IMG] Tyrogue (GS)
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/unown.png[/IMG] Unown
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/wobbuffet.png[/IMG] Wobbuffet
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/yanma.png[/IMG] Yanma
[/hide][hide=Untiered][B]Untiered:[/B]
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/articuno.png[/IMG] Articuno
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/bulbasaur.png[/IMG] Bulbasaur
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc-shiny/celebi.png[/IMG] Celebi
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/charmander.png[/IMG] Charmander
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/kabuto.png[/IMG] Kabuto
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/mew.png[/IMG] Mew
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/mewtwo.png[/IMG] Mewtwo
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/moltres.png[/IMG] Moltres
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/omanyte.png[/IMG] Omanyte
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/squirtle.png[/IMG] Squirtle
[IMG]http://pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/gsc/zapdos.png[/IMG] Zapdos[/hide]
 
I think that random Magikarp and the shiny Lake of Rage Gyarados should be tiered separately.

Magikarp is available at level 10 by fishing after the first badge.
Training it to level 20 when you should be preparing for the Whitney battle is pretty terrible and would cost your other Pokémon valuable experience.
Level 20 might not sound like much, but it is fairly high for Johto's level curve.

Once you get past Whitney,
Morty is not far which means Surf is not far...
...which means level 30 shiny Gyarados is not far.

The one good thing about catching a random Magikarp and evolving it before Morty is that you'd get to use Bite against the Gastly-line Gym. Bite is special though and the whole process would require some serious grinding.

The Lake of Rage Gyarados is overleveled if you get it right after the fourth badge and will easily carry your team through Chuck's Gym and past Jasmine's Steelix.
It gets STAB Surf right away, has Thrash or learns Headbutt or Return by replaceable TMs or Strength by HM for coverage.
Water + Normal was flawless neutral coverage back then (before Ferrothorn, Empoleon, Jellicent, Trevenant, Shedinja, ...).
Dragon Rage provides utility for catching Pokémon.
You can also throw a bunch of HMs on it if you need to and take the burden of your other team members.

If you get the red Gyarados later, before the seventh Gym and not right after Morty, it is still at least on par with the rest of your team and won't require much training to catch up if any at all.
Catching it doesn't waste much time either, since battling it is mandatory.
Even if you decide to catch it before you obtain Fly, that just means that you can Fly from Olivine straight to Mahogany City or Lake of Rage right after you beat Jasmine to save time since you've already visited those places.

Shiny Pokémon also statistically have above average IVs in Gen II. This should also apply to the Gyarados.


TL;DR

Training Magikarp in the early parts of the journey is the opposite of efficiency. It costs time and 'steals' the limited experience from your actual 'powerhouses' at that point in the game.
Once you get to the middle of the journey, you might aswell just catch an overleveled shiny Gyarados and use that if you need a Water-type with perfect neutral coverage and high HM compatibility.

Keep the shiny Gyarados in A. Drop random Magikarp lower imo.

----------------------

I agree with Karxrida. B for Chikorita is too high.
 
Last edited:

Tomy

I COULD BE BANNED!
Chikorita is fine in B.
It's the worst of the 3 starters - and that's why it's in B. But we are not compairing/thinking "Wow, why am I using a Chikorita if I could grab myself a Totodile?"; it's more about the actual performance during the game. I while the first 2 gyms are a nightmare, its holds up reasonably well - if you want another comparison, off the 3, it has the best match-up against Miltank and Kingdra, two of the most difficult battles. It is solid; it's not the brightest star, but it gets the job done.
 
I think it should also be weighed how important Chikorita's match ups are in the context of the full game with other things available. While Chikorita has the best match up of the starters against Miltank, remember that both the trade Machop and a Geodude (trade or no trade) also walk all over that fight, while not having the opportunity cost of the other two starters or (in Geodude's case) an unfavorable match up with the first two gyms.

Besides this, Chikorita's performance considering what it costs to use and how it's built doesn't sound like B rank to me (which I consider to be "workhorse" at least, unexciting but fully usable). It has poor match ups against the majority of Gyms (Falkner, Bugsy, Morty, Jasmine, Pryce, Claire, Erika, Janine, Blaine), the majority of Team Rocket's Poison types (and even their secondaries are commonly Flying or the odd Fire type), the Elite Four (Lance, Koga, Karen packs a lot of Poisons, and Will has Xatus, Exeggutor, and Jynx), and doesn't add much for Red (loses to Charizard and Venusaur while only being advantageous against Blastoise). Major Battle viability is very bad for it on an offensive and defensive front with Pure Grass Typing.

Its movepool is downright terrible. It basically gets Grass and Normal coverage, with only the highly competed for EQ TM to give it another offensive option, and it's essentially unable to scratch the majority of Steel types, Flying types, or generally its STAB resistors because of this. Razor Leaf is also its only STAB move bar the only-slightly-stronger Giga Drain, which is a far cry from Feraligatr's Surf access, or even Typhlosion's Fire Blast/Fire Punch (depending on if you hit the Game Corner or just the Store) for even worse coverage. It's built more for utility and status effects in terms of stats and movepool, but this essentially comes at the cost of two higher ranked attackers and means it either wins by war of attrition or is best suited to catching other things, at which point you could just choose the other starters to have said efficient things from the outset. Typholsion can at least learn Thunderpunch to cover the odd Water type.

I just don't see what Chikorita has going for it, as even in a vacuum the majority of factors work against it bringing any efficiency. And I know this is not what we rank it on, but I still can't deny that thje opportunity cost of the other starters is a major bias for me.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Nelson Tangela brought up a good point in the Unpopular Opinions thread about the Miltank matchup:
There is really nothing threatening in Goldenrod Gym besides Whitney.
There is also no way to reliably predict the outcome of that battle, no matter which starter you choose to use. The whole Whitney battle is one big fucked up RNG extravaganza.
Between
- Metronome Clefairy
- Attract Miltank
- Stomp flinches
- Smokescreen Quilava
- 75% Accuracy Poison Powder
- Headbutt flinches (Quilava can outspeed Miltank and fish)
- potential Ember burns (only 10% but battles against Miltank tend to be very long)
- Rollout damage rolls which can vary severely
- ...
you will have fun.

I'm not trying to say that Chikorita is the only one that has a hard time against Whitney, because they all three suffer hard here.
None of them are able to end the battle fast and clean. All three starters need items to actually stay alive and win 1on1.
BUT Quilava, while being weak to Rollout, is the only one that can turn the odds for the long game in its favor thx to Smokescreen*. It is also the fastest of the three starters and is the only one that has a chance to outspeed Miltank and fish for potential flinches with Headbutt. It can even fish for burns with Charcoal Ember once Miltank's accuracy is crippled.
Reflect runs out. Poison Powder damage doesn't grow over time, so can be healed by Milk Drink. There is no way for Miltank to heal a reduced accuracy and the lower accuracy won't end after 5 turns.

Croconaw is probably the weakest choice here, since Bayleef makes up for the lower physical bulk with Reflect (yes Croconaw has higher physical bulk than Bayleef) and actually has Miracle Seed Razor Leaf compared to Water Gun, Ice Punch and Headbutt.

None of the starters has the real obvious advantage here. Whitney is hard for every starter. The difference is in the bigger picture.
While they all have a hard time against Whitney and will lose if the RNG decides to make you lose, Cyndaquil and Totodile actually provide outstanding value in other parts of the game. Chikorita is not great against Whitney... or much else these games have to offer.

*I know that all three starters learn Mud-Slap by TM at that point in the game to get the same utility as Smokescreen Quilava, but I did not consider it for one simple reason. It is a unique TM.
Headbutt can be bought indefinitely. Mud-Slap is gone for good once you use it.
tl;dr - The starters all suck against Whitney, Chikorita just sucks the least. Cyndaquil and Totodile also have long-term usefulness that Chikorita totally lacks to justify picking them.

There's pretty much no good reason to go with Chikorita if you're trying to be efficient. It needs to drop.
 
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