Metagame Godly Gift

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Honestly, it's difficult to say that one mon on its own is what's making stall such a threat. When you sit down and think about it, Msab gets destroyed by a lot of the powerhouse mons that people run; it's the core supporting it that lets you get away with keeping your magic bouncer alive. I've been playing on the suspect ladder with Mega Sableye gone and tried all sorts of teams, but one consistent thing I've noticed is that the stall cores with regenerator mons *cough* *hack* Toxapex, Alomomola *cough* *hack* are doing just fine. Now, obviously that doesn't mean any weird complex bans on that ability should be considered or anything, but I just thought it was important to note that in a lot of situations it's the whole core itself and not one specific mon that makes dealing with stall such a daunting task.

On a different note, I hope Deoxys-A gets addressed after this suspect test is over. That thing is a monster as a donator and is literally everywhere >.>

I understand where you're coming from. But what you said is a case where no mons in the meta is actually broken. Thing is, in this meta, both Msab and Toxapex are broken on its own so it's pretty easy to see why stall is pretty overpowered right now. Alomomola is fine. Toxapex isn't. It's a simple matter.

Edit: Actually, maybe ppl doesn't think Msab as broken (though I think it is). But the general consensus says that Toxapex is broken.

Also iLlama, I'm sorry to say but according to my observation, I have to admit that the reqs is too freaking hard to achieve. Many of the top 10-20 in the ladder doesn't even reach 77 GXE. That's why this suspect have lack of votes. Next time, please be reasonable and observe the ladder first.

And if Msab ends up not banned, please do something about Toxapex, thank you.

 

[Deleted User 91486]

As long as Deoxys-Attack is allowed, we defenitely need Toxapex, as it is the only mon that can deal with attack-buffed Mimikyu thanks to its typing and haze.
Skarmory is pressured too much, as its only way to deal with mimikyu is to phaze it out, and if it drags something like Tapu Koko in, it can't even roost the taken damage off.

 

[iLlama]

Voting Ban. Already explained why.

 

[Iynhe]

Meh, Alomomola is a decent wall but i found that can't do shit, usually.
Yeah, if you can't 2hko it, it is BORING but apart from that, i stopped using it because it was too stupidly passive. It is utility, but nothing else.

 

[Bad Player]

Hi, I want to discuss about a nomination I have for the VR

from A to B

When I look at the A rank, Mewtwo really stands out as worse than the rest. Looking at its stats, Mewtwo is best suited for a BO/Balance team. Now, lets compare Mewtwo to another god in the A rank. It`s stats are probably most comparable to Xerneas. The advantages it has are the special attack and speed. The special attack is not that much higher, so the biggest advantage is speed which is solid because its better than Arceus. However, even with these advantages I feel like Xerneas is a better option because its better as a mon and has more better stats. In general, I dont see what special things Mewtwo provides over other gods that makes it worthy of A rank. Like if I wanted to use a BO/Balance team, I would rather use things like Arceus, Primal Groudon, Giratina-O and the aforementioned Xerneas. Also, I haven`t really seen any good Mewtwo teams or many Mewtwo teams for that matter. I know that usage does not equal viability but when its this rare and the fact that the ladder is really one of the only ways to determine how good mons are since there aren´t any big tournaments happening for this metagame. I feel like Mewtwo fits in a lot better with gods like Yyeltal because it`s a god that offers some advantages but is generally not as good as gods in the above ranks. Of course I could be wrong and i`m open to any counter arguments against this nomination.

 

[Aku Mau Ngetroll]

the thing is, even if a mon on stall can be beaten 1vs1 situation, they always have another teammate to back it off, stall overpowered not because 1 mon, but the unbreakable synergy is. if only the reqs in not so freaking high (i mean uhh, so many alts in the ladder have mss on it, and many failed to achieve that).

yeah. maybe double suspect after this? Deo-A and Toxapex is just so problematic. so many ability power house in this gen like koko, magearna, mimikyu, alowak that inherit deo-a offense become too much to handle, and toxapex, while it likes the hp slot, actually you can give it in SpA slot, since it's bulk already decent. so the composition of m-sab, pex, and other regenerator get so great synergy. and no, you can't setup on it because haze, so you need atleast strong ground / psychic / electric attack.

252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 300-354 (72.1 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (come from 106 HP toxapex)

so it can take a hit and toxic / setup toxic spikes, switch another teammate to handle P-Don with not losing momentum with regenerator. note, that's 180 atk Adamant 120 BP that doesn't OHKO.

and no, don't use a broken mon need to check another broken mon, if the both mon is broken, then both needs to go.

 

[Stall is coming]

DO NOT BAN Mega-Sableye.

Every mons in this tier is broken. Nothing more, nothing less.

(HP) M-Sableye is an important mons on this metagame thanks to an immense bulk and control hazards. Like (HP) Toxapex is important thanks to regenerator, hazer and spiker. Like (SA) Swellow 2OHKO 95% of the metagame . Like (A) Alolan-Marowak 2OHKO 95% of the metagame.

In OU, all this pokemon deserves a suspect. But in this tier, this unbalanced tier, to make a suspect on one mons is meaningless .

Excuse my english :) .

 

[iLlama]

The suspect is now over.​

Votes

Ban: 2
No Ban: 3

Sablenite will remain unbanned.​

First, I'm going to apologize for what turned out to be extremely difficult requirements for voting. After going into it originally and getting the reqs myself I didn't think it was that difficult, but obviously having only 5 voters said otherwise. In other news, there has been a lot of discussion of other Pokemon within the meta being over-centralizing or making matches uncompetitive. Playing on the ladder during this suspect test has revealed some things that need to be addressed, namely, Deoxys-A and Toxapex. After discussion among the council and players on top ladder we have some news.

Toxapex is quick-banned from Godly Gift.​

Reasoning: Going into Godly Gift originally when the meta was first approved back in March, we instinctively knew that Toxapex would be a huge threat. What we didn't realize is how easy it would be to abuse Toxapex's absurd bulk in multi-regenerator cores compared to the last generation that generally used Alomomola instead. It's also practically impossible to break Toxapex without utilizing insane attack stats or catching it switching in with Dugtrio. With incredible teammate option as well, Toxapex can easily blanket check most matchups while having amazing switch-ins in the back to cover for any legitimate threats. Toxapex also requires teams to run highly specific, super-effective counters to it beyond simple stallbreakers and it can generally shut down any opposing Pokemon if it's using at least Ho-oh's HP stat, let alone Arceus's or Giratina's. Because of this, Toxapex is now banned.

Now, next on the agenda...

Deoxys-A is being suspected.​

I feel I should preface this suspect explaining why this test is occurring, because Deoxys-A is not inherently broken itself. There are Pokemon within Godly Gift that can handle it 1v1 and it sets are pretty predictable with only about 7 moves that it generally could carry. However, the distribution of 180 attack stats and a 150 speed stat gives Deoxys-A teams an incredible amount of flexibility in team compositions and in addressing various matchups. The amount of Pokemon that can utilize these stats is so far and wide that for the most part, Deoxys-A teams simply cannot be reasonably prepared for. This style of HO also put pressure on players to choose whether or not they too want to run a hyper offensive build or if they want to run something much more defensive that can take this incredible force head on.
How to vote:

• Create a fresh alt with DAS (Deoxys Attack Suspect) in the name
• Have at least 20 battles on the account
• Have a GXE of at least 72
• Vote BAN, DO NOT BAN, or ABSTAIN
• Explain your reasoning with a short paragraph

Deoxys-A will be banned during the suspect. This suspect will end on Friday at approximately 11:59 P.M. EDT.
Tagging The Immortal to implement these changes.

 

[EchoGaia]

View attachment 83431
DO NOT BAN Mega-Sableye.

Every mons in this tier is broken. Nothing more, nothing less.

(HP) M-Sableye is an important mons on this metagame thanks to an immense bulk and control hazards. Like (HP) Toxapex is important thanks to regenerator, hazer and spiker. Like (SA) Swellow 2OHKO 95% of the metagame . Like (A) Alolan-Marowak 2OHKO 95% of the metagame.

In OU, all this pokemon deserves a suspect. But in this tier, this unbalanced tier, to make a suspect on one mons is meaningless .

Excuse my english :) .

I don't agree on some points. Like Illama said, keeping a broken thing cause it checks broken things isn't a valid argument. Mega sableye blanket checks 95% of the metagame thanks to its sheer bulk, but also has Magic Bounce, which prevents him from being hit by Taunt, Toxic or even phazed out. Utility sets can cripple everything and even outright OHKOing with Metal Burst, why it's able to recover back the damage easily. CM sets are devastating after some boosts, not to mention it has will-o-wisp to crippl physical attackers that could take advantage of its not boosted Defense by setting up.

Sure Swellow and Marowak hit incredibly hard, but they can be easily revenge killed, not to mention that Marowak in Speed doesn't hit that hard and in Attack, it's extremely easy to revenge kill it. Swellow has very few switch ins (on top of my head, there's spD Tyranitar and HP Corsola that are among the best switch ins)

Edit: Didn't see iLlama post, good thing Mega sableye stays, but with Toxapex gone, we need a new check for Mimikyu. Btw Illama, did you already ban Deoxys A for the ladder of Godly Gift? If yes imma try to gets reqs for this one since i failed for mega sab.

 

[raddaya]

I'm sorry but this was a complete joke of a suspect test. 5 voters is not an accurate sample size by any means.

 

[david0895]

I'm sorry but this was a complete joke of a suspect test. 5 voters is not an accurate sample size by any means.

I agree with this, at this point is better that the council should decide about it

 

[david0895]

Are you saying that simply because you disagree, or because of the sample size?

because 5 voters is not enough to decide if a pokemon is broken or not

 

[EchoGaia]

Why did you put Shuckle and Sableye in the Do not use section when Sabeye-Mega and Shuckle are listed as S and A+ ?
Are people allowed or not? It says you edited it 35 minutes ago, but for someone like myself who is new, and saw that Sabeleye was not banned after the vote, it is confusing.

If you see the brackets, you'll see that Sableye has point of using without its Mega, and Shuckle in Attack or SpAttack slots shouldn't be used outside of gimmicks, due to Shuckle atrocious Speed.

 

[LordHelix]

Hi im new to the forums, just wanted to say my opinion about the sableye matter

I would say sableye is arguably as or more broken than toxapex, with a excellent typing, its immunity to toxic and taunt, access to calm mind, metal burst, foul play and willowisp and excellent defenses making it beat almost every attacker. it also completely invaildates balance and stall builds just because they dont have enough nuke power to get through sableye and because they cant use a stallbreaker like mew since sableye beats them

And even even swellow and fairies lose to metal burst or when sab is paired with 154spdef assault vest tangrowth/mirror coat alomomola (it sounds weird but its an excellent check to swellow and tapu koko that ive seen being used on the suspect ladder).


Also Im sorry i didnt want to call out anybody but literally all of the anti-ban arguments are so unreasonable, lets look at what was mentioned here:

1) sableye (a broken mon) is a good check to deoxys (another broken mon) teams and vice versa

2) because "it has an opportunity cost and competes with toxapex for the hp slot", and thats not relevant anymore since pex is gone

3) because "every mon in this tier is unbalanced and its an unbalanced tier"

I havent seen a single good reason for keeping it in the tier and nobody even mentioned how its not broken or what mons actually beat it without losing a mon to metal burst or losing to sableyes teammates, those are not valid reasons for keeping it in the tier

TR;DR: sableye is a broken mon which forces u to use an incredibly small number of pokes to beat it without losing a mon or forces u to play around very carefully thanks to metal burst. And imo the anti bans arguments were not very convincing at all and i dont think there wasnt enough votes to decide

Please council, i hope u reconsider doing something about this, i dont think 5 votes is enough number of votes to decide if this busted mon gets to stay or not

 

[EchoGaia]

Hi im new to the forums, just wanted to say my opinion about the sableye matter

I would say sableye is arguably as or more broken than toxapex, with a excellent typing, its immunity to toxic and taunt, access to calm mind, metal burst, foul play and willowisp and excellent defenses making it beat almost every attacker. it also completely invaildates balance and stall builds just because they dont have enough nuke power to get through sableye and because they cant use a stallbreaker like mew since sableye beats them

And even even swellow and fairies lose to metal burst or when sab is paired with 154spdef assault vest tangrowth/mirror coat alomomola (it sounds weird but its an excellent check to swellow and tapu koko that ive seen being used on the suspect ladder).


Also Im sorry i didnt want to call out anybody but literally all of the anti-ban arguments are so unreasonable, lets look at what was mentioned here:

1) sableye (a broken mon) is a good check to deoxys (another broken mon) teams and vice versa

2) because "it has an opportunity cost and competes with toxapex for the hp slot", and thats not relevant anymore since pex is gone

3) because "every mon in this tier is unbalanced and its an unbalanced tier"

I havent seen a single good reason for keeping it in the tier and nobody even mentioned how its not broken or what mons actually beat it without losing a mon to metal burst or losing to sableyes teammates, those are not valid reasons for keeping it in the tier

TR;DR: sableye is a broken mon which forces u to use an incredibly small number of pokes to beat it without losing a mon or forces u to play around very carefully thanks to metal burst. And imo the anti bans arguments were not very convincing at all and i dont think there wasnt enough votes to decide

Please council, i hope u reconsider doing something about this, i dont think 5 votes is enough number of votes to decide if this busted mon gets to stay or not

First of all, Mega sableye isn't immune to Toxic and Taunt, despite Magic Bounce being able to bounce back these moves, Mold Breaker Pokemon like Pangoro, Mega Gyarados and Excadrill are still able to hit Mega Sableye with those moves through its ability. Secondly, Mega Sableye, despite having a good defensive typing, is weak to the most common attacking type in Godly Gift, which is Fairy. Most Fairies like Xerneas (that will increase in popularity with its biggest check gone), Tapu Lele, Tapu Koko and Tapu Fini can break through Mega Sableye with enough Special Attack (from Kyurem White or Rayquaza for instance). Mimikyu also stands out, as it can 2HKO Mega Sableye with Play Rough and if it has its diguise intact, doesn't even have to worry about Metal Burst.

Tapu Bulu, despite not using Fairy moves, is able to OHKO Mega Sableye with Wood Hammer (sure the recoil is doing huge damage afterwards but eh) and Horn Leech Swords Dance sets usually carry Substitute to avoid being hit by will-o-wisp.

Hydreigon with a good buff in either HP or Defense can try to pp stall Mega Sableye that isn't a CM set or using Taunt. (even though i won't recommand it for that).

 

[The Immortal]

Hey iLlama can you try to chill with the rapid suspect tests? You're not going to get the best results. The suspect tests should be one week at least, especially since you're asking for fresh alts. I think you should reverse the previous decision and hold off on the new suspect. I get that this is a temporary ladder and you need to test things quickly, but this isn't going to be best for the metagame.

 

[EchoGaia]

Hey iLlama can you try to chill with the rapid suspect tests? You're not going to get the best results. The suspect tests should be one week at least, especially since you're asking for fresh alts. I think you should reverse the previous decision and hold off on the new suspect. I get that this is a temporary ladder and you need to test things quickly, but this isn't going to be best for the metagame.

TI, the point of Illama here is that the suspect is necessary to see if Deo A was really broken or not. It may seem quick in the first place, but it's necessary. As Toxapex was quickbanned from the metagame, we need to see if Deo A teams ploy through many archetypes (and thus being broken) or not. Technically, it's the next week cause we are Sunday already btw.

 

[dhelmise]

TI, the point of Illama here is that the suspect is necessary to see if Deo A was really broken or not. It may seem quick in the first place, but it's necessary. As Toxapex was quickbanned from the metagame, we need to see if Deo A teams ploy through many archetypes (and thus being broken) or not. Technically, it's the next week cause we are Sunday already btw.

Yeah except the Mega Sableye suspect test wasn't even a week long and for even temporary metagames they last at least a week and a half, and five players voting doesn't give a very accurate representation of the community's views on Mega Sableye being broken.

 

[Stall is coming]

I don't agree on some points. Like Illama said, keeping a broken thing cause it checks broken things isn't a valid argument. Mega sableye blanket checks 95% of the metagame thanks to its sheer bulk, but also has Magic Bounce, which prevents him from being hit by Taunt, Toxic or even phazed out. Utility sets can cripple everything and even outright OHKOing with Metal Burst, why it's able to recover back the damage easily. CM sets are devastating after some boosts, not to mention it has will-o-wisp to crippl physical attackers that could take advantage of its not boosted Defense by setting up.

Sure Swellow and Marowak hit incredibly hard, but they can be easily revenge killed, not to mention that Marowak in Speed doesn't hit that hard and in Attack, it's extremely easy to revenge kill it. Swellow has very few switch ins (on top of my head, there's spD Tyranitar and HP Corsola that are among the best switch ins)

Edit: Didn't see iLlama post, good thing Mega sableye stays, but with Toxapex gone, we need a new check for Mimikyu. Btw Illama, did you already ban Deoxys A for the ladder of Godly Gift? If yes imma try to gets reqs for this one since i failed for mega sab.

EchoGaia,
I choose different example of broken mons. And M-Sableye isn't a hard counter to Swellow or A-Marowak. I'm agree with you, (HP) M-Sableye is a monster and has a lot of different set.

I think this tier is extremely manichean. A team is a Stall or HO. And my teams are Stall.
And for a stall:
* M-Sableye isn't a problem. ( For me )
* Without a perfect counter [( Def Spe ) Tyra exist ? Corsola is a pokemon ?], Swellow destroy the team.
* After a bad anticipation and a (A) A-Marowak with+2, it's hard to stall him.

But I understand your point of view, if we use a HO :
* (SA) Swellow come in the terrain, he makes a kill thanks to her speed, and you gonna revenge kill him.
* (A) A-Marowak come in the terrain, he makes a kill thanks to her power and her bulk, and you gonna revenge kill him.
* (HP) M-Sableye can hard counter 3 mons in your team. And the rest of your team can be stall by the rest of his team or he can Metal-burst you. M-Sableye can beat a entire team alone.

EchoGaia, i like the debate around M-Sableye and your argument, pro or against M-Sableye.
But, why we make a debate for M-Sableye and SMOGON makes a choice sounds like a dictatorship for Toxapex ? In any case, if Toxapex need to be bann, Toxapex DESERVES a suspect test .

And for the people who said that 5 voters isn't enough for the suspect test, make a team, play in Godly Gift and maybe you can have more than 77 % in GXE. Vote and after all of this, you can criticize the number of voters .

 

[The Immortal]

TI, the point of Illama here is that the suspect is necessary to see if Deo A was really broken or not. It may seem quick in the first place, but it's necessary. As Toxapex was quickbanned from the metagame, we need to see if Deo A teams ploy through many archetypes (and thus being broken) or not. Technically, it's the next week cause we are Sunday already btw.

Then form a council, or just make the decision yourself. Don't run a half-assed suspect test.

 

[EchoGaia]

Yeah except the Mega Sableye suspect test wasn't even a week long and for even temporary metagames they last at least a week and a half, and five players voting doesn't give a very accurate representation of the community's views on Mega Sableye being broken.

While i agree, the fact that Godly Gift is too much random (and thus the requirements were too high for many players to reach it) I guess Illama prefered ending it and start the new one quite quickly. Of course he could have just lowered the requirements which would have been a wiser choice.

 

[iLlama]

Hey iLlama can you try to chill with the rapid suspect tests? You're not going to get the best results. The suspect tests should be one week at least, especially since you're asking for fresh alts. I think you should reverse the previous decision and hold off on the new suspect. I get that this is a temporary ladder and you need to test things quickly, but this isn't going to be best for the metagame.

I completely understand where you're coming from with this; however, I don't really see the point in holding off on a suspect test for Deoxys-A when there have been people talking about a suspect being necessary for it both in this thread and in the Other Metas chat every day. If I did not consistently watch both this thread and the Other Metas chat on a day to day basis, as well as playing on ladder throughout each day, this would be a different story. The first suspect test wasn't the best, and I acknowledge that. I based the test criteria mostly off of last generation's suspect test of Mega Sableye which happened around the same time with the same reqs, so I didn't see an issue with it, even after getting my own reqs for it. After watching the ladder for it, I realized the reqs were too high but at that time I felt it was too late, mostly because we (the council) had other issues, i.e. Deoxys-A and Toxapex, that we really wanted to address, so extending and/or dramatically lowering the requirements in a day didn't seem practical. The suspect test was not meant to be a half-assed rendition with minimal votes, that was my mistake, being new to running a meta, and I apologized for that accordingly. We want Godly Gift to develop into a balanced meta so that people are able to enjoy it fully, well before it goes away. Waiting another week for a week long suspect test would reduce the balanced playtime to about a week, possibly more, which might not be in the best interest of the people playing the meta, especially during the summer when people may be busy during the month of June. The reason we held the Mega Sableye suspect rather than quick-banning it is because we wanted to see if things like the Regenerator core or Toxapex alone were throwing it over the edge this generation, as well as checking to see whether other Pokemon may be over-centralizing or broken. This kind of puts us at a crossroads because we both want to take our time in developing the Gen 7 version of Godly Gift, but we also want to follow the users that play it and address issues with the metagame as they come along, so that people have enough time to play Godly Gift at their own leisure rather than being forced to play a set number of days or the meta is gone. Explaining to users that we should wait a full week for a suspect test that we almost all agree upon being necessary simply because of unspoken standards isn't in the best interest of Godly Gift, let alone other metas. For that reason, we (the council) decided that another suspect was necessary immediately after the Mega Sableye suspect and if Mega Sableye presents an issue past this point, we will address it accordingly.

 

[Scarf]

OK, so it's no surprise this whole situation was poorly handled by nearly everyone involved, but now we have a chance to start over. Considering we have new suspects coming up in the future, I want to explain why I think this Mega Sableye suspect was a disaster. I'd just like to preface this little post with that if you believe or based your suspect voting solely on the fact that x Pokemon needs to remain in order to check y Pokemon, then I strongly urge you to reconsider. For instance, if we were to take this user's suspect voting:

View attachment 83431
DO NOT BAN Mega-Sableye.

Every mons in this tier is broken. Nothing more, nothing less.

(HP) M-Sableye is an important mons on this metagame thanks to an immense bulk and control hazards. Like (HP) Toxapex is important thanks to regenerator, hazer and spiker. Like (SA) Swellow 2OHKO 95% of the metagame . Like (A) Alolan-Marowak 2OHKO 95% of the metagame.

In OU, all this pokemon deserves a suspect. But in this tier, this unbalanced tier, to make a suspect on one mons is meaningless .

Excuse my english :) .

They begin by stating that every Pokemon is overpowered, which I presumed to be a joke, but they then go on to describe how multiple other supposed overpowered Pokemon exist in the tier, and if they're allowed to remain, so should Mega Sableye. The key point here is to figure out what it is this suspect test is determining. We're attempting to find out if Mega Sableye is broken or not. Not if Swellow is broken, not if Toxapex is broken, but Mega Sableye. Therefore, arguments like "Mega Sableye should stay because it's not as broken as some other Pokemon" have no place here. Now, looking back at user Stall is coming's post, it's unclear whether or not they voted Do Not Ban because Mega Sableye truly isn't a broken Pokemon or because it's just not as broken as other Pokemon. Additionally, they conclude the post by stating that this suspect is "meaningless" thanks to the assortment of broken Pokemon in the tier, which directly contradicts the very point of this suspect test. This means that this vote could be skewed altogether, which is a big deal in this specific instance since we only have 5 votes, thanks to the rather high requirements. Another example:

considering deoxys-a is considered fair game i think sableye is fine. there are far too many 180hp options that will break sableye and sableye cores on neutral hits, and the cm set is not particularly popular anymore. rampaging through the tier with deoxys-a only becomes easier and i dont see it leaving due to discussions that have happened about it this gen and last gen, so sableye can stay too. sableye is not even the optimal mon for the hp slot right now which is its best set. the speed set is good but not broken. when it comes to preventing hazards, its something that stall finds very helpful considering how ridiculously offensive this meta is. this gen we got 8 new totally viable fairy mons in koko, magearna, comfey, mimikyu, lele, fini, bulu, and ninetales, they eat up sableyes fairly decently without even necessarily taking up an offensive slot. the only argument that vaguely makes me want to reconsider is metal burst, but realistically there isnt a moveslot for it that allows sableye to keep its other strengths in tact, and will end up being broken by either physical or special sweepers. these sort of inconsistent "counter" moves are less impressive once revealed, and it takes a bit of luck to use as well.
tldr: deoxys teams keep sableye in check and is the most used god by a huge margin, so sableye is fine

DO NOT BAN

also while getting reqs i discovered that atk merciless toxapex is a force. it can punch a lot of defensive mons into dust with a combination of crits and liquidation drops breaking through unaware. this mon is so balanced lel

edit: @ the shuckle above, that was used a lot last gen in low ladder and is generally quite bad, gives up all momentum, cant trap anything it wants, and there are too many situations in which it just loses. like clicking substitute or clicking on your steel pokemon with recovery. shuckle is fine in this tier but not that set

Another Do Not Ban, but this time the post begins with stating that Deoxys-Attack is legal, therefore Mega Sableye ought to remain, as they believe the two Pokemon are equally as overpowered. As many in this thread have reiterated, this method of reasoning is flawed as it again fails to answer the question of "Is Mega Sableye broken or not?". If they perceive Deoxys-Attack to be overpowered, that is an entirely different matter and should not sway their opinion on this unrelated situation. However, to give user pip credit, they do go in-depth and describe why he think Mega Sableye is fine thanks to the multitude of new Fairy types introduced that can beat it up, but the TL;DR makes me believe that the one driving force behind their decision is Deoxys and how teams fueled by it check Sableye, despite them considering the former broken.

I should state that the section above is not intended to insult or call out the users in question, but instead to analyze their posts to determine exactly why the reason why they voted for the option they have is flawed. It is true that they might also just believe Mega Sableye is just not broken for more legitimate reasons, such as the ones described in pip's post, but this is more acceptable, but at least this way the vote and the overall verdict will be more accurate. As a change of pace, let's look at a post that accurately describes why they believe Mega Sableye is not broken. The following post is also a Do Not Ban, so there isn't any ban-favored bias or anything like that:

DO NOT BAN

Even though sableye got an obvious and easy buff, I feel like both sides of the battle (offense and stall) got a fairly equal buff and therefore it is not overcentralizing.
Next to that, there are many pokemon in the tier that, on stall teams, are fighting for the HP slot. In addition, it also takes up a mega slot. It is true that sableye works well, however it also has a large teambuilding cost. A number of pokemon that work on stall and would like Arceus/Giratina HP are Sableye, Toxapex, Skarmory, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Kartana, Starmie and Venusaur-mega. Running Sableye on speed is also an option, but removes the threat of metal burst and makes it more predictable. Sableye gets OHKOd by most stallbreakers on deo-a teams such as Swellow, Araquanid, Koko, etc depending on sets. Subs set up on it. Stall is prominent in the meta already, so a stallbreaker-utility mon on your team just to handle sableye-like teams does not feel like a waste of a moveslot.

View attachment 83324

Before I begin, note how this user doesn't base their reasoning on other Pokemon, but instead focuses on Mega Sableye. They successfully answered the question proposed by iLlama with this suspect test, being "Is Mega Sableye broken". Please keep this in mind for any future suspect tests, guys. Returning to the post, they state that the opportunity cost of using Sableye as both your Mega and your HP-receiving Pokemon is high, as well as how strong wallbreakers like Swellow and Araquanid can OHKO it. Lastly, they conclude the post with how a Pokemon dedicated to handling Mega Sableye is not extreme, as that Pokemon helps your matchup vs both Mega Sableye and non-Mega Sableye stall considerably, which goes a long way considering stall is quite popular on the ladder. All-in-all, a solid post all around.

Moving On
Moving on from this little fiasco may not be too easy for us, but needless to say, it needs to happen. I, however, agree with TI when he stated that the earlier decisions should be undone so we can hold normal, proper suspect tests with actual valid votes. We have 5 total votes, a few of which vote ban simply because of external factors, which completely ruins the legitimacy of this suspect test, IMO. Be that as it may, from this point further, I'd recommend discussing one Pokemon in a coherent manner before touching upon other topics, just to keep focused and not get confused amongst ourselves. That one Pokemon should be Mega Sableye. I'd just like to state that the following is my opinion so you may disagree:

: Personally, I think that this Pokemon is too much. Assuming it has boosted HP, it not only is better at totally shutting down hazards users (The added HP helps it check Pokemon like Spikes Greninja, defensive Clefable, offensive and defensive Garchomp, the ever-present Shuckle and Deoxys-A, offensive Landorus-T [Though the absolute extreme, a Landorus-T inheriting Deoxys-Attack's attack using Supersonic Skystrike at +2 will OHKO, but it can live in any other reasonable situation] and so much more, just about the few Pokemon that can reliably set up entry hazards against this is Primal Groudon [which fears Foul Play], Arceus-Fairy with Sp.Atk investment [which I doubt exists], Mega Mawile [doesn't use rocks] or something like Excadrill w/ Mold Breaker) but it's now also better as an all-purpose check vs most of everything thanks to its great defensive typing and huge bulk. The new HP also unlocks Metal Burst as a viable move, giving it offensive presence. It's existance also enables Dugtrio (which is lowkey super broken as well, IMO) to be even more threatening. Good stall gods like Arceus and Ho-Oh give it even more Attack / high Special Attack to help pick off annoying Pokemon like Primal Groudon and other strong wallbreakers. It's so good at denying hazards and shutting down stallbreakers in combination with its partner Dugtrio, it does so much for bulky archetypes and is extremely tough to deal with. IMO this suspect test got it wrong majorly and should be revoked as soon as possible.

In conclusion, whilst it's quite unanimous that this could have been handled better, right now the council should recognize their mistakes and revert any hasty decisions made, as the recent turn of events have done nothing to help make the metagame more balanced. It's also important for everyone here to keep in mind that simply because something is used very often doesn't make it overpowered. While I do agree that Deoxys-Attack teams are far too common and boring on the ladder, banning it is not the solution! But that's a topic for another day. Firstly, I would want this whole Mega Sableye deal to get cleared up first.

 

[Stall is coming]

OK, so it's no surprise this whole situation was poorly handled by nearly everyone involved, but now we have a chance to start over. Considering we have new suspects coming up in the future, I want to explain why I think this Mega Sableye suspect was a disaster. I'd just like to preface this little post with that if you believe or based your suspect voting solely on the fact that x Pokemon needs to remain in order to check y Pokemon, then I strongly urge you to reconsider. For instance, if we were to take this user's suspect voting:

They begin by stating that every Pokemon is overpowered, which I presumed to be a joke, but they then go on to describe how multiple other supposed overpowered Pokemon exist in the tier, and if they're allowed to remain, so should Mega Sableye. The key point here is to figure out what it is this suspect test is determining. We're attempting to find out if Mega Sableye is broken or not. Not if Swellow is broken, not if Toxapex is broken, but Mega Sableye. Therefore, arguments like "Mega Sableye should stay because it's not as broken as some other Pokemon" have no place here. Now, looking back at user Stall is coming's post, it's unclear whether or not they voted Do Not Ban because Mega Sableye truly isn't a broken Pokemon or because it's just not as broken as other Pokemon. Additionally, they conclude the post by stating that this suspect is "meaningless" thanks to the assortment of broken Pokemon in the tier, which directly contradicts the very point of this suspect test. This means that this vote could be skewed altogether, which is a big deal in this specific instance since we only have 5 votes, thanks to the rather high requirements. Another example:

Another Do Not Ban, but this time the post begins with stating that Deoxys-Attack is legal, therefore Mega Sableye ought to remain, as they believe the two Pokemon are equally as overpowered. As many in this thread have reiterated, this method of reasoning is flawed as it again fails to answer the question of "Is Mega Sableye broken or not?". If they perceive Deoxys-Attack to be overpowered, that is an entirely different matter and should not sway their opinion on this unrelated situation. However, to give user pip credit, they do go in-depth and describe why he think Mega Sableye is fine thanks to the multitude of new Fairy types introduced that can beat it up, but the TL;DR makes me believe that the one driving force behind their decision is Deoxys and how teams fueled by it check Sableye, despite them considering the former broken.

I should state that the section above is not intended to insult or call out the users in question, but instead to analyze their posts to determine exactly why the reason why they voted for the option they have is flawed. It is true that they might also just believe Mega Sableye is just not broken for more legitimate reasons, such as the ones described in pip's post, but this is more acceptable, but at least this way the vote and the overall verdict will be more accurate. As a change of pace, let's look at a post that accurately describes why they believe Mega Sableye is not broken. The following post is also a Do Not Ban, so there isn't any ban-favored bias or anything like that:


Before I begin, note how this user doesn't base their reasoning on other Pokemon, but instead focuses on Mega Sableye. They successfully answered the question proposed by iLlama with this suspect test, being "Is Mega Sableye broken". Please keep this in mind for any future suspect tests, guys. Returning to the post, they state that the opportunity cost of using Sableye as both your Mega and your HP-receiving Pokemon is high, as well as how strong wallbreakers like Swellow and Araquanid can OHKO it. Lastly, they conclude the post with how a Pokemon dedicated to handling Mega Sableye is not extreme, as that Pokemon helps your matchup vs both Mega Sableye and non-Mega Sableye stall considerably, which goes a long way considering stall is quite popular on the ladder. All-in-all, a solid post all around.

Moving On
Moving on from this little fiasco may not be too easy for us, but needless to say, it needs to happen. I, however, agree with TI when he stated that the earlier decisions should be undone so we can hold normal, proper suspect tests with actual valid votes. We have 5 total votes, a few of which vote ban simply because of external factors, which completely ruins the legitimacy of this suspect test, IMO. Be that as it may, from this point further, I'd recommend discussing one Pokemon in a coherent manner before touching upon other topics, just to keep focused and not get confused amongst ourselves. That one Pokemon should be Mega Sableye. I'd just like to state that the following is my opinion so you may disagree:

: Personally, I think that this Pokemon is too much. Assuming it has boosted HP, it not only is better at totally shutting down hazards users (The added HP helps it check Pokemon like Spikes Greninja, defensive Clefable, offensive and defensive Garchomp, the ever-present Shuckle and Deoxys-A, offensive Landorus-T [Though the absolute extreme, a Landorus-T inheriting Deoxys-Attack's attack using Supersonic Skystrike at +2 will OHKO, but it can live in any other reasonable situation] and so much more, just about the few Pokemon that can reliably set up entry hazards against this is Primal Groudon [which fears Foul Play], Arceus-Fairy with Sp.Atk investment [which I doubt exists], Mega Mawile [doesn't use rocks] or something like Excadrill w/ Mold Breaker) but it's now also better as an all-purpose check vs most of everything thanks to its great defensive typing and huge bulk. The new HP also unlocks Metal Burst as a viable move, giving it offensive presence. It's existance also enables Dugtrio (which is lowkey super broken as well, IMO) to be even more threatening. Good stall gods like Arceus and Ho-Oh give it even more Attack / high Special Attack to help pick off annoying Pokemon like Primal Groudon and other strong wallbreakers. It's so good at denying hazards and shutting down stallbreakers in combination with its partner Dugtrio, it does so much for bulky archetypes and is extremely tough to deal with. IMO this suspect test got it wrong majorly and should be revoked as soon as possible.

In conclusion, whilst it's quite unanimous that this could have been handled better, right now the council should recognize their mistakes and revert any hasty decisions made, as the recent turn of events have done nothing to help make the metagame more balanced. It's also important for everyone here to keep in mind that simply because something is used very often doesn't make it overpowered. While I do agree that Deoxys-Attack teams are far too common and boring on the ladder, banning it is not the solution! But that's a topic for another day. Firstly, I would want this whole Mega Sableye deal to get cleared up first.

The case of Mega-Sableye is pretty simple. We made a suspect, and the rule was easy, we could vote if we has more than 77 %, so the people who voted knew very well this metagame. I know very well this metagame and I judge that none mons deserve to be ban. It's my opinion. It's not a " skewed " vote . I'm against pre-ban of Toxapex but I understand why he is banned and I never speak about Toxapex anymore.

I look your argumentation for the ban of M-Sableye and I consider your argument. But your vote doesn't matter because you don't have more than 77%.
The men who knew very well this tier decided not to ban M-Sableye with DEMOCRATY. So this whole Mega Sableye deal IS cleared up .

 

[Scarf]

The case of Mega-Sableye is pretty simple. We made a suspect, and the rule was easy, we could vote if we has more than 77 %, so the people who voted knew very well this metagame. I know very well this metagame and I judge that none mons deserve to be ban. It's my opinion. It's not a " skewed " vote . I'm against pre-ban of Toxapex but I understand why he is banned and I never speak about Toxapex anymore.

I look your argumentation for the ban of M-Sableye and I consider your argument. But your vote doesn't matter because you don't have more than 77%.
The men who knew very well this tier decided not to ban M-Sableye with DEMOCRATY. So this whole Mega Sableye deal IS cleared up .

I don't know if you understood my intent behind that post. It's fine if you think Sableye's not broken, but its the reason why you stated in your post that was the problem. Also I asked for this Sableye deal to be dealt with because many players are upset with both the way this suspect test was handled (super short time frame with high requirements) which is the primary reason why the turnout was so low. A suspect test w/ only 5 votes is pathetic, and that's a fact. There's no way you can make a decision based off of this.