Final thoughts on the Threat List

[Jumpman16]

Going off of this thread, of course. Things like Jirachi and Celebi "I" can go either way about, and that what this thread and forum are for.


Tyranitar
Gyarados
Infernape
Azelf
Electivire
Heracross
Salamence
Togekiss
Gengar
Garchomp
Lucario
Starmie
Weavile
Dugtrio
PorygonZ
Machamp
Snorlax
Zapdos
Suicune
Breloom
Slaking
Ninjask
Metagross
Heatran
Jirachi
Dragonite
Mamoswine
Gallade
Yanmega
Kingdra
Roserade
Scizor

Let's hear it. The rules of the old thread apply here (and are stated in the OP), but I expect nothing less from you guys anyway.

 

[Mekkah]

I'm having my doubts about Suicune on the offensive threat list. If you consider Celebi and Jirachi rather borderline (and both have more versatility and more SpAtk and Spd, as well as arguably better resistances to work with) then Suicune's offense becomes hardly worth looking at. Of course, its better concrete defenses do work towards a fix in offense since it has longer to Calm Mind, but I still think that it is much more a defensive threat than an offensive one, and not both.

That said, it does get past the more popular walls such as Blissey, Gliscor and Hippowdon and it is quite common (28. Suicune (15610309 points), he's above Yanmega and PorygonZ among others).

 

[Aldaron]

Celebi should definitely be on this list. I'll ignore for a second the Baton Passing capabilities that this Pokemon possesses (the ability to pass 101 HP Substitutes, Calm Mind, and Swords Dance), because it seems like Baton Passing threats like Ninjask and Jolteon are being questioned in the first place.

With Calm Mind, Recover, and 100 Base Stats across the board, Celebi is naturally difficult to take down. The only real physical threats to Celebi being the Bug type (Heracross's Megahorn and Scizor's X-Scissor come to mind) and the Dark type (Tyranitar's Crunch). Celebi can load up on the physical side defensively, and then boost its Special Defense using Calm Mind and recover off any residual damage.

Celebi@leftovers
-Calm Mind
-Recover
-Grass Knot
-Psychic / HP Fire
evs- 236 HP / 136 Def / 136 Spe

Those evs get you 400 HP, 297 Def, 270 Spe.

How does this apply to Celebi's threat offensively, however? Well look at what Celebi really fears defensively...Heracross, Tyranitar, and Scizor. After a Calm Mind, Psychic from Celebi OHKOs Most Heracrosses, and HP Fire from Celebi OHKOs Most Scizors. After a Calm Mind, Celebi's Grass Knot is also a guaranteed 2HKO on almost all versions of CB Tyranitar, while a max attack, Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar only has a minimal chance of OHKOing Celebi back with Crunch.

Those are just specific dangers to the Pokemon itself. What about generally speaking? Well, with Recover, Blissey certainly isn't a counter to Celebi. When the ultimate Special Wall is helpless against a special attacking threat, that threat needs to be respected. The only way, honestly, of dealing with it is having a faster, strong hitting STAB SE attack coming it's way, preferably from the Special side. The Physical "counters", Heracross (needs a Scarf, which is losing popularity to Band), Scizor (always slower, and fears HP Fire on the CM set), and Tyranitar (Grass Knot) all cannot be considered counters. Even from the Special side, if say, Gengar or Infernape, both with STAB SE moves to utilize against Celebi, come in on a Calm Mind, neither will OHKO and both will be OHKO'd.

Why does it deserve to be on the threat list? Because if you mistakingly allow it 1 or 2 Calm Minds, you're essentially forced to either have a particular counter in hand (like Yanmega's Bug Buzz or Heatran's Fire Blast), or sacrifice a Pokemon using Explosion or Destiny Bond.

I am of the opinion that all bulky Pokemon with stat increasing moves should be considered for this list, and when you add decent Speed with a 50% Recovery move, I feel it is a necessity.

New players should be aware of the threat Celebi poses. And this, of course, is simply viewing Celebi in a singular sense, and not the team threat it poses by being one of the most efficient Baton Passers.

 

[Tangerine]

I was going to say something about Scizor in the previous thread but I never got a chance to.

394 Attack with Sword Dance and Life Orb means Skarmory isn't WWing it out for free - Skarmory takes a minimum of 40% damage when hit by a Brick Break, more if it decides to roost.

The SD version isn't walled by Hippo either, since it's 2HKOd after a SD with Iron Head/X Scissor. Scizor can even Pursuit/Night Slash, along with Iron head so it can deal with Ghosts.

The fact that it's more defensive and it's ability to recover with Roost means it can come back and sweep another time or try to BP Agility/Iron Defense/Sword Dance another time.

So it's more than a "more Defensive Lucario" or just another inferior BPer compared to Ninjask - It can run CB sets well, along with Baton Pass multiple times in a game, and even attempt a late game sweep with an LO SD set. It's definitely a threat that people need to be aware of.

 

[Aldaron]

Adding to the Scizor threat concern is the fact that whatever comes in on it, namely Fire Pokemon such as Heatran and Infernape and Steel Pokemon such as Skarmory, tends to have a weakness to the two common trappers, Dugtrio and Magnezone.

Meaning not only is Scizor a threat with the ability to Swords Dance with boosted priority, a 50% recovery move and nice Defense, it can U-Turn first turn on the opponent's switch and be part in an instant, guaranteed OHKO.

 

[gengod]

As for Celebi and Jirachi, i'm convinced they can go either way, even if they can be as Aldaron as pointed out they still aren't normally used offensively so that inclines me to say that they should more so be placed on the defensive threat list rather than the offensive one.

Suicune on the other hand although defensive should indeed be included on the offensive threat list, it is very common as Mekkah has pointed out and almost every set carries Calm Mind, which makes it a very viable offensive threat which people should consider when building teams. My vote goes for leaving it on the offensive threat list.

Another pokemon i suggest adding to the threat list would be Scizor. I wholeheartedly agree with everthing Lee said in his post in the original thread here http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1009838&postcount=135
Scizor is extremely common and even though it is outclassed by Ninjask as a Baton Passer its CB, Life Orb and Swords Dance sets more that make up for that. I see no reason not to include it in the list.

 

[Jumpman16]

Ok I will add Scizor, I did want more people to weigh in on it besides just Lee and someone else (about the same number of people spoke up for Floatzel, for some perspective).

I also want to make it clear that a pokemon can indeed be both an offensive and defensive threat—the lists aren't mutually exclusive. Suicune's a perfect candidate for both, as is Jirachi. Remember Tyranitar, Gyarados and Slaking are on there and they aren't going anywhere on either list (and we'll get to defensive threats later).

 

[Surgo]

All I have to say on Suicune's offensiveness is that crocune is still sweeping teams.

 

[Jibaku]

Suicune can sweep without even being a Crocune, although the metagame's rising amount of offense slowly eats away at its potential.

Dugtrio needs to go. This pokemon is uncounterable unless you set your entire team with anti-Dugtrio stuff. If an RMT is supposed to refer to the threat list to see where they missed, they will realize its impossible to counter it and simply put in things like, "Gliscor" and "Vaporeon", and none serve as Duggy counters. It's kind of difficult to place it in words, but how is it possible to cover up something if that something cannot be switched into in the first place? There just isn't anything you can actually do to stop Dugtrio from picking you off at any point.

 

[Fishin]

I'd assume the main point of Dugtrio is to avoid having a team of pokemon that Dugtrio can easily beat, not trying to counter Dugtrio itself. It doesn't work in the same way as the other threats but it's still something that needs to be taken into consideration when team-building.

 

[the Lexx]

While that may be true, I've seen teams with 5-6 members that get destroyed by Dugtrio, and that's just asking for trouble... so while you can't build a team to "counter" it, you can (should) build one that isn't too weak to it. It should stay.

Edit: beaten by Fishin, same general idea though

 

[StrangerDanger]

I for one don't see the reason why electivire is still on the threat list. I think the only reason it was a threat to begin with is that we were still figuring everything out and teams were built a lot more haphazardly with a lot more weaks or less ways to deal with sweeps. Now, it's almost invisible, i haven't seen but one since October on shoddy, and still a limited amount prior to that.

If not even for it's scarcity, it just seems like without the Motor Drive boost, it's just another 'eh' Pokemon when it comes to threats. Scarfed Pokemon, Swampert, Usually Hippowdon (eats 40% max iirc), and too many other walls or just defensive pokemon shut him down completely. Without the speed boost, the list of pokemon that defeat it significantly widens to about anything faster with a solid STAB or Ground move. IMO, the mixed set is the most effective, but it just seems like the hype put it on the threat list in the first place and that usually we're a lot more careful/prepared these days. Sure, if you're 3-4 and you accidentally motor drive the opponent it can spell doom, but i'd say it's hardly an argument. It's more a pokemon to be knowledgeable of than to actually fear at all.

Slaking also feels out of place, as i've never seen ONE in any of my battles, since DP started. Still, the fact that almost every team carries a Steel type (Or two. Or three.) to deal with the odd dragon move and a variety of other moves, it seems like slaking would find itself being stopped in most cases by things that arent even meant to wall it. (as if Skarmory and Bronzong needed an excuse) Its trait is too awful now to be considered a 'threat' where having SDcario or Subchomp destroy your team is far more threatening. Sure it'll try to CB it's Return into anything that moves, but that extra turn allows for so many set up options it's basically a free Sweep for the aforementioned Lucario, an Agiligross, or really too many people to count. I'll stop beating it to death, i think the point it made.

 

[Surgo]

Slaking is just too dangerous to use anymore. It's not just a free sweep for a stat-up steel type, you can sacrifice just about anyone to get in that all-important first stat up move. Anybody with a stat-up sweeper is benefitted by their opponent having Slaking. The only time it would be workable is with a scarf, and even then there are better scarfers to use.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

There are essentially 2 problems with Slaking in D/P. The first is that the large majority of walls have an instant recovery move. Skarmory, Hippowdon and Gliscor can simply recover the damage dealt during by Slaking during the loafing around turn. Also don't forget that a bulky steel is the bulky water of D/P, almost every team has one. So essentially he's easier to wall in D/P. The other problem is what Surgo and StrangerDanger said. A free turn of set-up is definitely not something you want to give your opponent in D/P.

I think if any Normal CBer is going to find its way onto the threat list it should be Staraptor. Base 120 attack with double STAB off Brave Bird/Return (or Double-Edge), Close Combat for steels and U-turn to top it off is nothing to scoff at.

Though to be quite honest I still believe not a single Normal CBer is a viable OU threat, but if one just so happens to make the list I strongly believe it should be Staraptor.

 

[Bologo]

Remember, Celebi isn't even just deadly with the CM set. A Specs version can tear through a lot of crap because of the STAB Leaf Storm. It's much like a bulkier Roserade, except it's also faster.

The CM set is extremely deadly though. I don't have anything in particular to add to Aldaron's statements about Celebi though, so I'm just backing him up.

If Celebi is being considered, and things that aren't used a whole bunch are allowed on the list, then I feel that Shaymin should be allowed on it too.

I've been testing out SpecsShay for pretty much my entire time playing DP, and even with a Timid Nature, it screws up damn near anything that tries to come in on it (even Blissey). Even Blissey can't take Seed Flares very well from Shaymin, since has that 40% chance of the 2 stage special defense drop. Seriously, Seed Flare is one of the best moves to exist, and Heatran is one of the only pokemon that can completely put a stop to Shaymin's Specsed Seed Flare. Houndoom comes close, but he still has a ton of trouble taking even resisted Seed Flares.

Modest Nature is even more deadly. Seriously, with Modest Nature and Choice Specs, it has a chance at a OHKO on standard Garchomps, which can actually take 4x weakness from Ice Beams on occasion. When Garchomp is taking a OHKO from a neutral hit whilst surviving 4x weaknesses, then you know that Shaymin is definitely one strong asshole.

Let's see what SpecsShay by itself can do as a threat to the OU metagame w/Modest Nature to the standard EV spreads of the OU pokemon:

Abomasnow - HP Fire to standard 252 HP/160 SDef w/ +Nature - 97.40% - 114.84% (OHKO)

Azelf - Seed Flare to 0 HP/0 SDef 124.74% - 146.74% (OHKO)

Blissey - Seed Flare to standard 148 HP/0 SDef 30.52% - 36.05% (can still get 2HKOed with a defense drop) (3HKO most likely)

Breloom - Psychic to 44 HP/0 SDef 150.74% - 177.57% (OHKO)

Bronzong - HP Fire to 252 HP/96 SDef 51.48% - 60.36% (2HKO most likely)

Celebi - HP Fire to 252 HP/0 SDef 52.72% - 62.13% (2HKO most likely)

Cresselia - Seed Flare to 252 HP/0 SDef 48.87% - 57.66% (2HKO most likely)

Donphan - Seed Flare to 252 HP/0 SDef 213.02% - 250.78% (OHKO)

Dragonite - Psychic to 0 HP/0 SDef 42.41% - 49.85% (3HKO)

Dugtrio - Do I even have to?

Dusknoir - Seed Flare to 252 HP/180 SDef w/ +Nature 57.14% - 67.01% (2HKO)

Electivire - Seed Flare to 0 HP/0 SDef 106.87% - 125.77% (OHKO)

Forretress - Obviously OHKOed by HP Fire

Garchomp - Seed Flare to 0 HP/0 SDef 87.11% - 102.52% (2HKO - OHKO)

Gengar - Obviously OHKOed by Psychic

Gliscor - Seed Flare to 252 HP/0 SDef 97.18% - 114.12% (Most likely OHKO)

Gyarados - Seed Flare to 212 HP/0 SDef 70.83% - 83.33% (2HKO)

Heatran - Seed Flare to 0 HP/0 SDef 20.12% - 23.53% (bleh)

Heracross - Psychic to 0 HP/0 SDef 94.68% - 111.30% (OHKO most likely)

Hippowdon - Seed Flare to 252 HP/0 SDef 169.05% - 199.05% (OHKO)

Infernape - Psychic to 0 HP/0 SDef 122.87% - 144.71% (OHKO)

Jirachi - HP Fire to 240 HP/0 SDef 53.12% - 62.59% (2HKO)

Jolteon - Seed Flare to 0/0 104.80% - 123.25% (OHKO)

Lucario - HP Fire to 0/0 101.42% - 119.22% (OHKO)

Machamp - Seed Flare/Psychic to 128 HP/0 SDef 88.39% - 103.97% (2HKO - OHKO)

Magnezone - HP Fire to 172 HP/0 SDef 71.91% - 84.57% (2HKO)

Mamoswine - Seed Flare to 64 HP/0 SDef 216.98% - 255.44% (OHKO)

Metagross - HP Fire to 252 HP/0 SDef 64.01% - 75.27% (2HKO)

Milotic - Seed Flare to 252 HP/0 SDef 114.21% - 134.26% (OHKO)

Ninjask - HP Fire to 176 HP/0 SDef 119.54% - 140.39% (OHKO)

Porygon-Z - Seed Flare to 0/0 110.61% - 129.90% (OHKO)

Roserade - Psychic to 0/0 100.38% - 118.01% (OHKO)

Salamence - Psychic to 0/0 w/ -Sdef Nature (Mixmence) 54.98% - 64.65% (2HKO)

Scizor - Obvious OHKO with HP Fire

Skarmory - HP Fire to 252 HP/0 SDef 85.33% - 100.30% (Most likely 2HKO, but possible OHKO)

Snorlax - Seed Flare to 168 HP/220 SDef w/+ Nature 37.57% - 44.14% (3HKO, 2HKO if defense drop)

Spiritomb - Seed Flare to 252 HP/112 SDef w/+Nature 69.52% - 81.78% (OHKO)

Starmie - Seed Flare to 172 HP/0 SDef 204.61% - 240.46% (OHKO)

Suicune - Seed Flare to 252 HP/0 SDef 119.55% - 140.59% (OHKO)

Swampert - Seed Flare to 240 HP/0 SDef 295.76% - 348.13% (OHKO)

Tentacruel - Seed Flare/Psychic to 204 HP/172 SDef w/ +Nature 52.27% - 61.65%

Togekiss - Seed Flare/Psychic to 252 HP/252 SDef w/+Nature 23.80% - 28.07% (bleh)

Tyranitar - Seed Flare to 252 HP/0 SDef in sandstorm 90.35% - 106.19% (2HKO, but possible OHKO)

Umbreon - Seed Flare to 252 HP/0 SDef w/+Nature 50.25% - 59.14% (2HKO)

Vaporeon - Seed Flare to 188 HP/0 SDef 126.56% - 148.88% (OHKO)

Weavile - Seed Flare to 40 HP/0 SDef 106.87% - 125.77% (OHKO)

Weezing - Psychic to 252 HP/0 SDef 108.98% - 128.44% (OHKO)

Yanmega - HP Fire to 0/0 107.67% - 126.84% (OHKO)

Zapdos - Seed Flare/Psychic to 252 HP/0 SDef 38.54% - 45.31% (3HKO)


Now, it seems kinda hard to look at that, and say that Shaymin isn't a threat. It OHKOs half of the OU, and pretty much 2HKOs the entire other half (the ones that run miserably defensive spreads).

The only ones that can really take all of its attacks and actually hurt it before they get a 2 stage special defense drop are Heatran and Togekiss. Shaymin is really bulky for a Choice user with 100/100/100 defenses, and some awesome resists, also boasting Natural Cure to free itself of status (I run Rest on the SpecsShay I use). Seriously, this thing is extremely hard to kill without using a super-effective attack, and it's really hard to switch anything into it safely, because most things either get OHKOed, or seriously fear the drop from Seed Flare. The small movepool may be a problem, but it really has all it needs. It hurts a lot more than Celebi, since Seed Flare can be used more than once. The only problem I see is that Seed Flare only has 8 PP, but if it can kill things without worrying about that, then no need to worry. Of course, the user of Shaymin needs to predict very well to pull off the Specs set well so it can actually land those KOs on things.

 

[Great Sage]

Personally, I'd just immediately cut off anything below 60 on the Shoddybattle weighted usage list.

Slaking: It gets a flat "no" from me, because a Truant turn is simply too much of a liability in D/P. Add on Jabba's point that most effective walls in D/P have 50% recovery moves (and none are even close to being OHKOed by any of Slaking's attacks except Ice Punch for Gliscor) and that it's at a pathetic 127 on the usage list, I wouldn't regard it as something to specifically look out for.

Suicune: While Suicune's Special Attack is average, Calm Mind makes it a decently difficult opponent to face. Considering Suicune is number 29 on the usage list, and that its high Defense lets it comes in easily on many top Pokemon, I'd keep it.

 

[Bologo]

Personally, I'd just immediately cut off anything below 60 on the Shoddybattle weighted usage list.

Yeah, but if people don't know that things CAN be potential threats to teams, then no one's going to use them, which results in low usage. Remember, nobody used Tentacruel before Obi's RMT was posted. Now it's OU. If potential threats are put on the threat list that aren't necessarily in the top 60, it may increase diversity, and as a result, have an increase of pokemon in OU.

 

[Jibaku]

I request the removal of Breloom from the threat list

It has an accurate sleep move and Toxic Orb for recovery (and obviously the immunity to Poison), but despite its marvelous base 130 Attack it's not threatening at all (Focus Punch being its strongest move and being walled by a lot of stuff, and besides Stone Edge/Seed Bomb it doesn't have much other coverage). It can be walled by Cresselia and Celebi with ease, and Salamence and Gliscor doesn't really get hurt too much from it either. Breloom is also very frail and quite slow (base 70 what?), and without Spore its not going anywhere. Now, if Spore was the reason Breloom made it in the threat list, wouldn't it be logical that all other sleepers be in the threat list just because they have a sleep move to disable something?

Agreeing with everyone else on Slaking

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Staraptor should probably go over Slaking, for reasons that Jabba mentioned.

Also, I agree with Aldaron about Celebi.

Breloom being taken off the list is absurd. Spore punching is still as effective as ever, and Breloom alone is capable of murdering entire teams. Poison Heal pretty much makes it immune to sandstorm. It has higher base atk than Heracross, and gets a free turn to set up because of Spore. It is more of a threat in d/p than adv.

 

[Fishin]

I can't see Breloom not being on the threat list. It can deal massive damage to any team with it's 130 base attack backed up by a 150 bp move (and other options to hit most opponents neutral at least) and possesses a 100% sleep move to essentially remove one of it's potential counters from play instantly. It may not be difficult to kill but it poses a massive threat offensively even without being fast.

 

[Jibaku]

Really, though, if an entire team is murdered by Breloom, it's not a good team.

Sporepunching looks good on paper, but really though, its overrated. You could try sporing a STalker and they'll hit you real hard when you try to Focus Punch. Focus Punch is resisted by many things in OU as well, and Breloom does not have the kind of coverage the other fighters have (Stone Edge, Seed Bomb, ???), and Breloom's base 70 speed is quite lacking. Well whatever it is, Celebi, Gliscor, Weezing and Cress will wall Breloom to no end. Spore is never exactly a free turn of set up, unless you're facing a team without any way to take the sleep. Sandstorm "immunity" is nice, but it still doesn't prevent him from being OHKOed by things.

Most teams don't get hurt by Breloom that much as Breloom counters just appear right in their team when they're trying to counter something else.

 

[goofball]

Slaking should definitely be removed from the threat list. The days of normal CBers damaging teams is over, there are simply too many steels and defensive walls that has access to Instant Healing now. His trait is the main reason why it shouldn't be on the threat list, you're only given once chance to KO(which against most walls he won't) and forced to switch. If you happen mispredict you just given your opponent a chance to setup.

I should note I have yet to actually play a match where it involved a slaking. No reason to call it a threat when it isn't even being used.

 

[Bologo]

Really, though, if an entire team is murdered by Breloom, it's not a good team.

Sporepunching looks good on paper, but really though, its overrated. You could try sporing a STalker and they'll hit you real hard when you try to Focus Punch. Focus Punch is resisted by many things in OU as well, and Breloom does not have the kind of coverage the other fighters have (Stone Edge, Seed Bomb, ???), and Breloom's base 70 speed is quite lacking. Well whatever it is, Celebi, Gliscor, Weezing and Cress will wall Breloom to no end. Spore is never exactly a free turn of set up, unless you're facing a team without any way to take the sleep. Sandstorm "immunity" is nice, but it still doesn't prevent him from being OHKOed by things.

Most teams don't get hurt by Breloom that much as Breloom counters just appear right in their team when they're trying to counter something else.

Umm, you mean the Rock/Grass/Fighting combo, the combo only resisted by Toxicroak?

Spore is still a free turn, since the foe still has to switch out to something else, this is even if there's something to take the sleep, because Resttalkers are very unreliable.

Do remember that a resisted Focus Punch from Breloom is still 112 base power after STAB, and that's almost as strong as a neutral STAB Seed Bomb, coming off of 394 attack.

Don't forget that there's also the long forgotten Swords Dancer/Bulk Up variations. People often don't use them, but they are just as deadly as the other sets because of Mach Punch. The 70 base speed doesn't matter when he's using Mach Punch, and Fighting is super-effective on quite a few commonly used types. Notice the rise in Crobats on shoddy? They're there for Breloom.

Seriously, Breloom needs to stay on the threat list. If there's not something that can take the sleep on the team, then the team is in a lot of trouble coming from Breloom's hands, and people need to be informed of that on the threat list.

 

[StrangerDanger]

Really, though, if an entire team is murdered by Breloom, it's not a good team.

I don't think that's a valid point at all. The reason we have this threat list is so that aspiring battlers are aware of what threats are out there. If we remove Breloom from the threat list, and a team is murdered by it, it's not their fault for 'not having a good team', it's our fault for not letting them know that Breloom's enough of a threat to contend with. We shouldn't make the threat lists assuming that everyone knows everything about the metagame.

Also, i'm a bit puzzled as to why Kingdra's on the threat list. Pseudo Specs-mence sets (basically Draco Meteor ones) are stopped by the same things that stop specsmence, and Rain Dance Waterfall/Surf sets don't seem by far as common or threatening as any other pokemon that needs to set up Rain Dance (Ludicolo, or Kabutops, anyone?). Sure, i can see a Life Orb'd Waterfall/Surf set causing some trouble, but is it really enough of a threat to warrant smogon's red flag? (i'm actually asking, as i'm not sure. I've never seen a Kingdra i couldn't handle, but that could just be me.)

Nthing Staraptor's addition, as if there's a single Normal Type CB'er that should be on there, i'm all for the one with Intimidate, Brave Bird, Close Combat, AND Return.

I also don't know about specs shaymin. It seems like it'll be throwing Seed Flares around and any good resist that can take advantage of that can severely punish the opponents team (and while the same can be said for other choice users i'm just not sure Shaymin's diversity [or lack thereof] warrants it.)

 

[Jibaku]

I don't think that's a valid point at all. The reason we have this threat list is so that aspiring battlers are aware of what threats are out there. If we remove Breloom from the threat list, and a team is murdered by it, it's not their fault for 'not having a good team', it's our fault for not letting them know that Breloom's enough of a threat to contend with. We shouldn't make the threat lists assuming that everyone knows everything about the metagame.

The question is: Is Breloom threatening enough to be considered a threat? Considering how it is natural for someone to carry a Gliscor, Cress, Salamence or Celebi (and other stuff that counters fighters), and a Sleep Talker to help against Hypnosis that could come out of Yanmegas/Gengars, Breloom does not seem very standout at all. A team can be murdered by just about anything, so theoretically just about everything should be in the threat list because of that, and we know that doesn't work.

Do remember that a resisted Focus Punch from Breloom is still 112 base power after STAB, and that's almost as strong as a neutral STAB Seed Bomb, coming off of 394 attack.

Yes, but despite how appealing that looks, a fair bit of pokemon have the defense to take it.

Umm, you mean the Rock/Grass/Fighting combo, the combo only resisted by Toxicroak?

Resists don't mean everything.

Seriously, Breloom needs to stay on the threat list. If there's not something that can take the sleep on the team, then the team is in a lot of trouble coming from Breloom's hands, and people need to be informed of that on the threat list.

Breloom is not the only pogey that gives trouble if you don't have a STalker. Gengar, Yanmega, Jynx, Crobat, etc. Because of that, Breloom doesn't look as shiny as what it is described, despite its 100% acc Spore (either way, they give the same effects am I right?)

Don't forget that there's also the long forgotten Swords Dancer/Bulk Up variations. People often don't use them, but they are just as deadly as the other sets because of Mach Punch. The 70 base speed doesn't matter when he's using Mach Punch, and Fighting is super-effective on quite a few commonly used types. Notice the rise in Crobats on shoddy? They're there for Breloom

Still walled by the same stuff that walls the Sporepuncher.