DP Groudon - Swords Dance Substitute set

[X-Act]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/groudon

Look at the second set:

name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Dragon Claw / Shadow Claw
move 4: Stone Edge / Overheat / Fire Punch
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Jolly / Adamant
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

And then the analysis:

...Substitute, on the other hand, allows it to beat up Giratina without fear. Groudon can come into a Blissey's Softboiled or so and Swords Dance as they move to Giratina, and then Substitute as Giratina fails miserably trying to Will-o-Wisp the Substitute. Even more to its downfall, Dragon Claw isn't powerful enough to break the Substitutes, allowing Groudon to score even more Swords Dances. Due to the prevalence of terrorizing special attackers in ubers, it is advised that one puts up a Substitute as often as possible, until Salac Berry activates, for if Groudon's Substitute broke, and Latias or Mewtwo decides to barge in before Groudon sets up another Substitute, it will end its sweep... Even if one is planning to run Salac Berry, Jolly is still recommended as it will allow it to outspeed Modest Choice Scarf Kyogres after the Salac boost.

Notice the mistake? Neither Substitute nor Salac Berry are listed in the set! They were removed because of /itis, but the comments to the set still mention them.

I'm not an ubers expert, but I can see that both Substitute/Swords Dance and Swords Dance/extra move are both valid, and they are sufficiently different to be split into two separate sets.

Because of this, I'd suggest to replace the set mentioned above with the following two:

One having

name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Dragon Claw / Shadow Claw
move 4: Stone Edge / Overheat / Fire Punch
item: Life Orb / Leftovers


and another one having

name: Substitute Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Dragon Claw / Shadow Claw
move 4: Substitute
item: Salac Berry

with appropriate commentary for each.

Since I'm not the uber expert here, I need someone to do this. Thanks.

 

[Colonel M]

I'd mention Thunder Wave, as someone here (I think it was Phuquoph) showed me that Swords Dance + Thunder Wave is definately deadly, since you won't see many Ground switch-ins all the time. I don't know the EVs however.

 

[Jediment]

Thunder Wave is indeed worth mentioning, as no smart trainer would switch Groudon into Groudon, seeing as they can't really harm each other. Most would reach for their nearest Giratina or Lugia; T-wave would make life harder for them both by decreasing the accuracy of WoW and Roost, respectively. However, I'd only mention it on the normal SD set, as you need more than one move to sweep. With only Stone Edge you're walled by Metagross, and only Earthquake the Latis and Rayquaza have a field day. But I don't know as much about ubers as say, Jibaku, so maybe you should have him write it.

 

[Great Sage]

I stuck Substitute back into the Swords Dance set. The regular Swords Dance and the Substitute sets aren't sufficiently different in theory or execution to require a new set.

 

[X-Act]

The problem with sticking Substitute and Salac Berry back in is that there is too much /itis. I think splitting them in two sets is the best way to fix this. I remember chaos saying sometime that if you absolutely cannot remove any moves from a set, then it's best to split the moveset into two separate ones, even though their method of play is similar.

And to be honest, I don't see them to be similar at all. With one, you Swords Dance, then Substitute until you activate Salac Berry; with the other, you Swords Dance and attack. I think they can be divided into two sets quite easily.

 

[obi]

Yeah, Sub + Salac plays much differently than just SD + 3 attacks. They even have different counters somewhat.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=788650&postcount=58

Well judging from 2 months ago, I'd say Substitute would in fact prevent Giratina from breaking it with a Dragon Claw.

 

[X-Act]

Okay I decided to split the sets myself. Please fix as you deem fit.

[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Dragon Claw / Shadow Claw
move 4: Stone Edge / Overheat / Fire Punch
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Jolly / Adamant
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Swords Dance Groudon has become far less powerful than in the previous generation with the advent of a more Water-based metagame, but can still be a formidable opponent to contend with. The strategy to using this set is rather simple: Swords Dance when the chance is available and proceed in an attempt to sweep.</p>

<p>As usual, Earthquake is a reliable STABed attack. The last two moves should be selected in complementary pairs, namely Dragon Claw/Stone Edge and Shadow Claw/Fire move. Usually, the former combination is superior due to its higher and more reliable power, but the latter pair also occasionally comes in handy. For example, while Dragon Claw often fails to OHKO Latias that have defensive investment, Shadow Claw critical hits invariably succeed in doing so. The dilemma as to which Fire type move to choose (to rend apart Steel types that are immune to Earthquake) has been discussed in the previous section.</p>

<p>A Jolly nature helps this Groudon outspeed most Rayquaza and some slower Palkia and is an excellent supplement to the setup nature of this set, while Adamant affords Groudon a significant amount of power. However, if one elects to use an Adamant nature, one may find the EV spread given for the Choice Band Groudon to be preferable, as well as Leftovers over Life Orb for more survivability, because, truth be told, there are almost no Ubers that lie with the domain of 218-279 Speed other than some abnormally fast Giratina and other Groudons. In the end, though, it is Groudon’s Speed, or lack of it by Uber standards, that make the Swords Dance set moribund in this metagame. No matter where Groudon is, it will almost undeniably find itself face to face with something faster that is able to knock it out immediately.</p>


[SET]
name: SubSalac
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Dragon Claw / Stone Edge
move 4: Substitute
item: Salac Berry
nature: Jolly / Adamant
evs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
ivs: 30 HP

<p>This is a variant of the previous set that sacrifices versatility for the usage of Substitute and Salac Berry to boost Groudon's middling Speed and, more importantly, a much more favorable confrontation with Giratina. The 30 HP IV is there so that Salac Berry activates after using three Substitutes. Groudon can come into a Blissey's Softboiled or so and Swords Dance as they move to Giratina, and then Substitute as Giratina fails miserably trying to Will-o-Wisp the Substitute. Even more to its downfall, Dragon Claw isn't powerful enough to break the Substitutes, allowing Groudon to score even more Swords Dances. Due to the prevalence of terrorizing special attackers in ubers, it is advised that one puts up a Substitute as often as possible, until Salac Berry activates, for if Groudon's Substitute broke, and Latias or Mewtwo decides to barge in before Groudon sets up another Substitute, it will end its sweep.</p>

<p>The choice of the second attacking move is either that of possibly OHKOing Latios after one Swords Dance (Dragon Claw) or to do more against the likes of Lugia and Rayquaza (Stone Edge). Shadow Claw would not be a good choice here as its only redeeming aspect, that of scoring a critical hit against the likes of Latias, is rather moot for this set. Groudon can use Substitute as Latios or Latias switch in and then use it again repeatedly until Salac Berry activates, leaving the final Substitute intact. It outruns its foe and uses Swords Dance in the next turn while the opponent breaks its Substitute, after which Groudon delivers the finishing blow with its secondary attack.</p>

<p>In spite of the fact that this set utilises Salac Berry to boost Groudon's Speed, a Jolly nature is still recommended as it will allow it to outspeed Modest Choice Scarf Kyogre after the Salac boost.</p>

 

[Great Sage]

"SubSalac Swords Dance" is a mouthful, so probably just "SubSalac" would do. "Favorable" is preferable to "favourable". I'd actually suggest a 30 HP IV so Salac activates at 25%. I'm not too fond of Shadow Claw on SubSalac Groudon, since Mewtwo, Mew, and Wobbuffet are hit harder by Earthquake, and it will lose against Lugia anyways. The potential critical hit on Lati@s is a non-issue on this set, as if Groudon Substitutes as Lati@s switches in, it can continue Subbing until it gets to 25% and Salac activates, after which it has an intact Substitute. It outruns Lati@s and Swords Dances the next turn while they break its Substitute, after which it delivers the finishing blow with its secondary attack. Yes, Lati@s can choose to not attack the Substitute, but that's generally a bit dumb to do against something with a Sub up that can really hurt you.

 

[Phuquoph]

I'm not keen on Shadow Claw either. While it does hit both Lati@s and Lugia, it won't do enough to Rayquaza. I would go with Dragon Claw or Stone Edge (possible OHKO on Latios after a Swords Dance, does more to Lugia and Rayquaza).

 

[X-Act]

Cool. :) Heh, I learned UK English, so the way I type it is 'favourable'. I do type 'defense' instead of 'defence' though, admittedly.

EDIT: I edited this. Nitpick again, please, as I had to do this one minute before a lecture and hence the effort is a bit hurried.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

I believe Groudon survives a Dragon Pulse at 75% from a Lati although admittedly I don't recall said Lati's special attack, but since you're more likely to get off more than 1 SD, you could sacrifice power for HP, depending on what you want to survive or have sub keep up against etc etc

 

[X-Act]

This is something that can be written in the EVs section, which also needs to be modified, by the way.

[EVs]
<p>All Groudon should focus on boosting Attack to increase the damage of their attacks. With an Adamant nature, it is better to dump the remaining EVs in HP and Defense to aid switching in, while on a Groudon with a Jolly nature it is acceptable to maximize Speed to outrun some Pokémon in the 95-100 base Speed area.</p>

<p>In the SubSalac set, some Attack EVs can be sacrificed for a bit of HP to have a sturdier Substitute and a chance of boosting Attack with Swords Dance more than once.</p>

 

[Great Sage]

There's no real point to a sturdier Substitute. Even without any defensive investment, Giratina can't break the Substitutes with Dragon Claw, and even with a bunch of Special Defense, any special attack will. Trying to weather Dragon Pulse from Latias is a decent objective, but note that Grass Knot is incredibly popular on it.

 

[X-Act]

Well, honestly I don't know if it's useful or not to have a sturdier sub (I don't play ubers, as I said), but I think it's an important enough detail to mention in Other Options anyway.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

It's not as much as attempting to make a studier sub, it's more along the lines of, surviving if you have to without a sub at max. =/

 

[X-Act]

Posted this on the SCMS.

 

[Aldaron]

this post is for jrrrrrrr's and Aldaron's purposes...

should be deleted thread has served its purpose