Doubles UU

Matame

New Rules
Time to share Mega Alt sand!!!! I think this went 2-1 in the duu tour or smth, and its my team of choice when I test with other people.

Altaria-Mega @ Altarianite
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Protect
- Fire Blast
- Draco Meteor
- Hyper Voice

Hippowdon @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Atk / 88 SpD
Careful Nature
- Slack Off
- Ice Fang
- Stone Edge
- Roar

Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drill Run
- Rock Slide
- Iron Head
- Protect

Hitmontop @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Wide Guard
- Feint
- Fake Out

Virizion @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Taunt
- Leaf Blade
- Close Combat

Volcarona @ Life Orb
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Giga Drain
- Heat Wave
- Protect

Started with Mega Alt, Hippo and Exca. Hippo is the only setter of sand in duu (aside from Hippopotas loll). Sand is relatively unexplored and i think it has potential. Exca demolishes steels and fires while Altaria destroys Dragons and fighting types, of which threaten each other. I went with Fire Blast over tailwind because I wanted alt to be able to take on steels 1v1, or at least have a chance to. Hippo is kinda dead weight most of the time. IT only serves as a way to set sand, hit volc with stone edge and hit Mence with Ice fang. Roar was added as the last move to stop other set up mons and trick room. Hitmontop just acts as general support, weaking physical attackers and pressuring the opponent with feint and fake out. Virizion checks bulky waters and some steels. Went with Taunt over Stone edge as i felt Volarona MU wasn't that bad and Trick room gave this team a bit of a hard time. It also stops other potential set up. Volcarona was added as a last to break other steels, grasses and to just pressure the opp in general. It pairs really well with hitmontop and finds many opportunities to set up.
 

xzern

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vr update! wow!

Slurpuff: UR -> 4 -> 3
Xzern: no thanks

Yoda: No. It’s a meme with no real evidence behind it, Nido has a team with it but it doesn’t do that good, there are far better setup mons and it’s not that good anyways.

Clius: no way, UR, what everyone else has said.

N10sit: i need to see this actually win games. Actually i need to see it used. It went 1-3 in duu tour, UR

Nido-Rus:Probably unranked. I’ve tried it a decent amount and its typing along with meh bulk gives it almost no opportunities to switch in. With TR being far more common than in dou, bd slurpuff can’t do much with no priority.

Klefki: 2.5 -> 2
Xzern: i like klefkis typing but it lets things set up in its face, as opposed to liepard which can lock manaphy into tail glow or metagross into substitute with encore. 2.5 is fine

Yoda: Abstain, on the line about this.

Clius: too many fires in this tier and swagger isn’t good.

N10sit: absolutely not, way too many fires, its outclassed by liepard, only reason u use this over cat is if you’re too weak to diancie

Nido-Rus: 2 is good, klefki pairs amazingly well with a lot of mons with t-wave+metal sound support as well as having enough bulk to switch into a decent number of attacks.

Ninetales: 2.5 -> 3
Xzern: this fits the tier 3 description i guess. Ninetales is pretty bad

Yoda: Yes, sun isn’t that good, especially because of basically requiring this mon.

Clius: agreed, sun is not that good in a semiroom filled meta

N10sit: agreed, thought this was already tier 3 lol

Nido-Rus: 3 definitely, mediocre mon with average bulk, terrible spatk, and a sparse movepool.

Exeggutor: 2.5 -> 3
Xzern: 2.5 fits this better because it needs heavy support. Saying that its not broadly applicable (tier 3 description) wouldnt be completely correct cuz it is applicable on sun

Yoda: 2.5. Still quite good, even if you need sun. Tang is a redirector, I wouldn’t use it for chloro sleep when eggs and bell exist.

Clius: yeah 2.5 is cool.

N10sit: 2.5 is fine i think this thing can work on TR as well as sun, also @ what xzern wrote above, being only usable on one archetype is exactly what “not broadly applicable” means, idk what you’re getting at

Nido-Rus: 2.5 should be fine, is a great mon on sun despite all of ninetales’ shortcomings

Mega Swampert: 2.5 -> 3
Xzern: no, see exeggutor reasoning

Yoda: 2.5. Has nice bulk, and rain isn’t terrible from what I’ve seen, even without poli.

Clius:yeah manual rain isn’t bad and I think mega pert is underused.

N10sit: its simply too good of a pokemon for 3

Nido-Rus: 2.5 for now, mega pert being a strong ground in a format with so few of them makes it a cool add for manual rain. Also doesn’t specifically need rain up to function considering how slow duu is in general. Needs a ton of setup though with rain+mega evolve turn, so I may change my opinion once I see it used more often


Non-Mega Blastoise: 1.5 -> 1
Xzern: yea blastoise is a neat redirector. Ive even seen some people (heretics) say that its better than tangela. Being a bulky water type lets it stand its ground against most relevant attackers, the only real exception being dragons and grasses

Yoda: Abstain. FM is good, and the Water typing is really nice defensively. Mainly offers better Special Defence and typing with the benefits of FM over RP compared to Tangela but offering little otherwise such as Tang’s sleep or doing any damage makes me have doubts.

Clius: no, it’s not that good, even if it’s the best redirector. Too many things can ohko it/counter it.

N10sit: 1.5. no damage output combined with no sleep powder which is what puts tang over the top. This is still a highly viable redirector, but it is not tier 1.

Nido-Rus: no, not one bit. Stoise is great at redirecting but does 0 damage whatsoever, is often setup bait for volcarona and also has nothing to stop spread moves.

Diancie: 1 -> 1.5
Xzern: hmmmmmm idk man…….. i think ill abstain…. really dont know about this one man….
Yoda: No. Hariyama doesn’t always use Heavy Slam, and other than that and the few steels going around it’s near impossible to OHKO. Doesn’t really need EP since Rock/Fairy is great offensively and Gene isn’t weak to it/Mega Metagross could have BP and can take an EP. Still the great fire check, bulky+strong TR setter it has been.

Clius: this is by far one of the best mons in this tier lol.

N10sit: lol, no, stop nomming this down

Nido-Rus: not at all: great bulk and typing for a TR setter, almost never gets OHKOd (apart from yama heavy slam as yoda mentioned, and m-stoise water spout), has an amazing attack in diamond storm, and can easily clean teams endgame.

Tangela: 1 -> 1.5
Xzern: what heretic nommed this. Little shoes is a good redirectior with big bulk. 1

Yoda: No. There may be stuff like fires/gene that can dish out the damage, but tang sits on so many Pokemon. Redirection is really good, sleep and regen is nice, and can deal some damage offensively.

Clius: tangela requires teams to prepare a lot just to be okay at handling it. Without your one or two counters, tangela can just win.

N10sit: again, really close. abstain

Nido-Rus: disagree, tangela is still the most reliable redirector out there. Functions basically like amoong with less reliable sleep move and different bulk spread.


Rotom-Heat: 1.5 -> 2
Xzern: i agree with yoda, 2

Yoda: 2. Rotom-Heat seems good in theory but in practice is always underwhelming. Less bulky than you would like, and doesn’t offer enough over other fires than beating Flying-types reliably.

Clius: This pokemon is horrible against diancie, and that’s why it’s bad. 2.

N10sit: 2, too many other fires giving competition

Nido-Rus: 2, overheat as only stab option is annoying and being a ground immune fire isn’t important at all compared to dou

Mega Lopunny: 2 -> 1.5
Xzern: abstain, i dont know how good this is

Yoda: 2. The Speed and FO/Encore is nice, but it’s a bit weak. Things like Hariyama/Liepard can do what you’re looking for without the mega slot.

Clius: too frail to be useful in this bulky tier. And in dubs in general.

N10sit: no, has great utility but is just not as good as liepard or hari as yoda said. 2 is a good place for this mon

Nido-Rus: 2, way too frail and doesn’t hit hard enough to merit usage over other fighting types. 110 also isn’t a relevant speed tier to cross anymore, and no good fighting stab


Staraptor: 2 -> 2.5
Xzern: i can see why someone would want staraptor to be lower, with crobat and tornadus existing and all. Staraptor might not be the best but its strong and is one of the few intimidators lurking throughout the tier and 2 is low enough

Yoda: 2. Really strong and difficult to switch into, even with scarf.

clius: intimidate + great movepool = staying in 2.

N10sit: no practice with this and havent seen a lot of it, abstain

Nido-Rus: Haven’t seen this used much but talkingtree has done some good stuff with it. 2 for now, may change if I see it underperform


Mega Medicham: UR -> 4 -> 3 -> 2.5 -> 2
Xzern: i think 3 is good. I got killed by this once. It can safely mega evolve with fake out and when it does that it has a sort of speedy 100 speed and big attack

Yoda: 4. Strong, but needing HJK to have a strong fighting STAB is sad. Has nice coverage but can’t run it all at once. Tying with other 100s is a bit annoying, and you face competition from other Fighting-types like Hariyama.

Clius:lets put it in 4 for now, if it starts doing better we can move it up. No need to rush things.

N10sit: this is a cool mon, but UR for me because it just hasn’t been used or proven to be good. I’d like to see more of it being used, and lets relook at its place on this list in a week or two, maybe after we can use it some more. Its outclassed by mega lopunny pretty hard, too.

Nido-Rus: 4 imo. I’d like it much more if it had strong stab options, but as it is rn it only has zen headbutt and drain punch for reliable stabs. HJK isn’t worth the risk, leaving medicham as a mon with a great ability but no good way of abusing it.

Kyurem: 3 -> 2.5 -> 2 -> 1.5
Xzern: 3 should be fine, it doesnt really have anything over other dragons except for hail spam

Yoda: 3. Still not that good, other Dragons (Mence/Lati) are a lot better.

Clius: 2.5 tbh, it’s good as a scarfer or on room in general. It handles some of the top threats well and has amazing movepool.

N10sit: kyurem is fine in 3, its stats aren’t great and its outclassed by latias or anything with a fast ice beam lol

Nido-Rus: 2.5 I guess? Haven’t used it at all outside that semiroom team with scarf kyurem I made with clius. Was kinda good there since it beat some mons the team had issues with, with its coverage, but don’t think it’s worth using in general. Still definitely worth taking another look at.


Mega Blaziken: 3 -> 2.5
Xzern: i dont see any really good reason to use this over regular blaziken but seeing as “waste of a mega slot” isnt a good reason for something to be low, 2.5 makes sense so that its not so far away from regular blaziken but to still emphasize that mega blaziken has little use over regular blaziken

Yoda: 2.5. I wanted this higher up last time, better than the other stuff in 3.

Clius: yeah i don’t really like this mon as your mega… although people have had amazing results with it. Abstain I guess.

N10sit: 3, this thing is really not better than regular blaziken, memoric is just bad and dumb

Nido-Rus: 2.5, great setup sweeper with SD and the speed boost to base 100 allows it to outspeed stuff like maero and deo

Mega Sharpedo: UR -> 4 -> 3 -> 2.5 -> 2
Xzern: unranked for me.. Bad typing and crawdaunt exist

Yoda: Unranked, never seen and there are better Water-types.

Clius: I am usually open-minded, but I think this mon needs to be more explored before you try nomming it all the way to 2. I could see it being at 4 but other people have already nommed it to UR so.

N10sit: i dont know about this one, ive never seen it used and on paper doesn’t seem like it fits in the metagame. UR for me, i need to see it do well

Nido-Rus: 4, tried it out a few times since the nom and it’s been working decently well, apart from being a bit too frail and dark stab not really making it worthwhile over m-stoise

Summary of changes:
Ninetales: 2 -> 3
Rotom-Heat: 1.5 -> 2
Mega Medicham: UR -> 3
Mega Blaziken: 3 -> 2.5
 

n10siT

Hoopa can do anything!
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vivillon 4 -> 3

this mon is a great tailwind setter, actually has a decent stab, and is the best sleep user in the tier. its speed is a bit unfortunate, but vivillon causes problems for any team. it helps beat tric room, can tailwind on fast teams, and puts threats to sleep. it's too good for 4. i went like 6-1 with vivillon in duu tour lol
 
I'd like to suggest Pachirisu from UR --> 3

I've had a bit of success with it on ladder. Its use is as a bulky redirector with Super Fang and Nuzzle to complement it. If it's paired up with a Pokemon like Mega Blastoise, you'll be able to paralyze a troublesome opponent and then Super Fang to cut a Pokemon's health in half while Water Spout comes out for the KO. It also has a great ability in Volt Absorb to take stray Discharges and due to Ground weakness being less of an issue in DUU its Electric typing is amazing defensively.

The main issue with Pachirisu is damage out put. Super Fang can never KO and is going to have to be used in conjunction with an offensive threat to secure KOs. While it does have offensive options, using them would have to mean cycling out either Super Fang, Follow Me or Nuzzle- which usually isn't worth it. It's for this reason I believe it belongs in 3: Pachirisu can take hits, soften opponents, paralyze opponents and redirect but it can't knock out the opponents.
 
Has anyone considered using parasect on fast rain teams or eviolite foonguss on others? I started playing Doubles UU this monday and built a kind of random TR team, and got to the 1400s. That just doesn't seem right, and I realised it was just that there is no reliable way to check TR that one can just slap on teams, unlike in VGC, Doubles OU, and other tiers. Just a thought.
 

Platinum God n1n1

the real n1n1
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I have seen foonguss.
Also there are good mons with taunt as tr check
Heavy hitting dark mons check tr setters
Also try roar/whirlwind to switch tr setters out
Or also run a mon with tr to reverse it
 
I'm not the one having the trouble, but as a person who has used TR since he really started competitively battling in 2014, I understand all of those tactics and all of my teams have multiple ways to mitigate those problems. Slow spore users are really the only way opponents can reliably at least be a nuisance to me, and the thing is no one is using them. It just always surprises me when my Diancie or Slowking can just set TR and sweep with their partner and that my opponents aren't running anything to at least slow down my sweep, besides smart switches. Now sure smart switches can work, but your mons still take a bunch of damage from strong spread moves like Abomasnow Blizzard and Life Orb Diancie Diamond Storm. It doesn't make sense why people are so underprepared to deal with it.
(BTW a simple follow me or rage powder user and to a lesser extent, a fake out user, mitigates all of the 1st 3 problems, and reversing TR is risky since you might end up setting it for me if I see it coming. Also if I run a mental herb, I can bypass the 1st problem, if I run a non psychic or ghost TR setter like a Diancie or Aromatisse then dark mons are useless and actually detrimental, and my own taunt can help stop the roar or whirlwind. Again been using TR since I started competitively battling in 2014, so have an idea of its problems and how to mitigate them. :P)
 

talkingtree

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Sleep is generally one of the more popular ways to prevent TR, which is why many common Trick Room teams will carry at least 2 Pokemon that are sleep-immune, either due to ability, typing, or Safety Goggles. So far as I can tell, the only super popular sleep inducer is Tangela, which has ridiculous physical bulk and fairly low speed, with Rage Powder to also support its partner.

There's a couple reasons you were able to find so much success on the ladder. The Doubles UU ladder is, generally, populated by inexperienced battlers and subpar strategies. Besides that, Trick Room is a quite potent threat in this metagame, as evidenced by the success of Trick Room oriented teams in tournaments such as DPL and clius' recent Doubles UU tour.
 
So far it's looking like (since stats are up) that we will be getting Mega-Camerupt, Mega-Mawile, Porygon2, and Thundurus-Therian.

If this is the case then TR is getting one hell of a boost.

^TR users looking at other playstyle users like
 
Well after some days of inactivity in this thread, I saw you kept Mega Sharpedo unranked... so I'll try to nom it again. I don't know if I can do this but I'm gonna do it lol.
I swear MegaSharp is not bad. Ok, I can understand why you don't wanna rank it but I've got answers for all your reasons.

- Bad typing: crawdunt has the same typing and it's ranked 2, so I don't see a reason why another mon with the same typing can't be ranked as high as crawdunt
- Crawdunt exists: yes it does, but they perform really different roles, it's like shaymin and serperior, same typing but very different roles. Crawdunt is more a wallbreaker and Sharp is more a late game sweeper.
- Never seen: just try it out yourself buddy
- Better water types: that's one of the reasons I'm not nomming it higher, but it's definetely a decent mon
- It needs to be more explored: as I said, try it out yourself, it didn't give me bad results in the very few games I played with this :)
- it doesn't seem it fits in the metagame: read my nom post, it does several things better than any other mon
- It's a bit too frail: that's another reason why I'm not nomming it higher. If it had manaphy's bulk it would be easily best mon in the tier.
- Dark type doesn't make it worthwhile over m-stoise: it's the strongest dark type in the tier (when I say strongest I mean it hits the hardest, I don't mean it's the best), and I think that gives him a decent niche.

That being said,
upload_2016-8-5_1-14-58.png


Mega Sharpedo UR --> Tier 2 / 2.5

I'll try to get decent replays where this thing puts in good work. You also can try it out yourself. I would appreciate if you tried it out and got any replays and passed it to me so that I can add it to this post. By now, I'll leave this one

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesuu-401276914
 

talkingtree

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CMG, since it was considered for 4, 3, 2.5, and 2 and not even voted to be good enough for tier 4, maybe you should try arguing why it deserves a place at all, instead of trying to jump the shark and place it so high


I just wanted to use the shark pun sry
 
I think sharpedo's biggest downfall is that, as you said, it 2hko's so many things. Seeing how frail it is, it's difficult to use a mon that 2hko's a ton of things without it being able to take a hit in between. I agree that it's threatening late game, but I also think a meta revolving so much around TR makes it harder for it to sweep late game when players are often rewarded for having slower mons.
 

Matame

New Rules
Reg LO shark I could see in tier 4 or smth. Pretty much does the same things mega shark does, but doesn't take up a mega slot. Tr matchup is pretty bad but it can hit quite a few setter for a lot of damage (hydro hits diancie, dark pulse hits jelli ect)
 
Ok talkingtree, I don't see any other options tbh.
BlueskiddoWeCanToo, you're right, Mega Sharp is super frail, but redirection exists, being Tangela a nice option to complement him, and you don't have to worry about spread moves because sharp is taking at least one heat wave or one blizzard, and it just ohkos earthquake and most rock slide users. And talking about TR, as I said in one of my nom posts, MegaSharp stops TR by himself. You only need a fast fake out user to fake out opponent's fake outer and then kill the TR setter with Mega Sharp.

252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 410-486 (101.4 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Hoopa: 446-528 (122.5 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Victini: 452-534 (111.8 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cofagrigus: 330-390 (103.1 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Reuniclus: 432-510 (101.8 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The only setters he doesn't ohko are diancie and aromatisse, which can be easily stopped by a steel type, e.g: mixed genesect (+1 flash cannon)
And because of that, BlueSkiddoWeCanToo, you're rarely going to be facing TR at late game if you have MegaSharp in your team and you know how to play it. That's one of the amazing things MegaSharp does. Usually fast ass mons are super weak to TR, but not in this case.

Matame, I don't know about regular Sharp, I haven't tried it out, although I suppose it could get to Tier 4, but MegaSharp is infinitely better than his regular form. MegaSharp, unlike his regular form, has access to strong jaw as his ability (crunch power + stab + strong jaw = 180) and therefore, he gets an amazing move to hit with, along with his attack stat, which gets to 416 if adamant, you have an amazingly powerful move which 2hkos over half the meta by itself. In addition, it provides him a great matchup against TR (I explained the reasons before). However, losing strong jaw makes his powerful dark stab weaker, and so, regular sharpedo loses a lot of power and also a brilliant characteristic, being the fact that he's able to stop TR really nicely
 
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Lord Death Man

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I've used regular and mega shark (started with mega, changed it to a physically oriented variant of regular later) and I really think they both deserve maybe 3 at best; they seem very slightly better than some of the mons (Shiftry?) in 4 but I'm not quite sure they're actually worth using/ranking. Shark seems cool on paper but it needs a lot of support because it can't come in essilyx and even resisted spread moves smash it pretty hard. Speed boost is at best a small bonus on the mega because you either have to spend a turn as the semi weak (no life orb) and very frail regular Sharpedo, or protect in order to grab the momentum. After you mega, you have to play around Intimidate and speed control of all kinds to maintain the boost, which is difficult.

I am also of the belief that they should both probably be Jolly. 95 speed Jolly (unboosted ie turn 1) is an okay speed tier, 105 Jolly at +1 is a great speed tier (105 adamant at +1 is not quite as good), outspeeding Deo-A and Mega Aero after a protect is SUPER nice, etc. 105 Jolly, unboosted (ie you switched) is a respectable speed tier, as well.

I also think that Mega Shark's ability to harass TR is being overrated by you - most TR teams have the support needed to keep mega shark down. It's true that it's less weak to the archetype than, say, Blaziken is, but I don't think that's a large accomplishment in of itself; it's mainly just good (ish) versus semiroom. That's not even getting into things like Colbur Jellicent who just completely neutralize it's contribution to beating TR. Outside of the TR matchup, there's many megas that are arguably better and much more splashable. Relying on redirection to make a sort of meh mega work is just ridiculous.

Regular Shark's niche is that it has speed boost, 95 speed as opposed to Blaziken's 80 so it outspeeds some stuff unboosted, and an okay stab combo, but even then its weak and very frail.
 
Thanks for trying sharp out Lord Death Man. Now let's answer...
I know it can't even take 2 resisted spread moves, but you don't need it to tbh. Yes, it's a paper mon but if you're taking hits with it you're not playing it the way should. I disagree with you about that Speed Boost is just "at best a small bonus on the mega". In my opinion, making a 140 attack base stat the fastest mon in the tier (excluding maybe exca in sand and kingdra in rain) is HUGE.

About the fact that it needs to protect turn 1 in most situations, I don't think it's too big of a deal. Most blaziken do that and it's still a really good mon. Also, sometimes you can overpredict that a skilled opponent is doubling into sharp's partner and then sub with shark in regular form and protect his partner.

After mega evolving, playing around intimidate and speed control is not that hard. Every physical attacker has to deal with that. In addition, sub on sharp helps a lot to protect you of t-waves and will-o-wisps, and about intimidate...

-1 252 Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 360-424 (108.7 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 166-196 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Mega Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Krookodile: 218-260 (65.8 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Mega Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Arcanine: 218-260 (56.7 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And again, intimidate and speed control are things every other fast physical sweeper has to worry about, so that's not even a reason.

I think adamant nature is the best, because it already gets to more than 450 at +1 when mega evolved. Plus jolly nature makes it lose some KOes

252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 410-486 (101.4 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 372-440 (92 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cofagrigus: 330-390 (103.1 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cofagrigus: 300-354 (93.7 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

I think I'm not overrating anything. Lead with Mega Sharpedo + Fast fake out user. Turn 1: fake out the opponent's fake outer and use crunch onto the TR setter and kill it. There are only 2 situations where this isn't successful.
Situation 1: Diancie is the setter. In this case a steel type easily kills it.
Situation 2: Aromatisse is the setter. In this case a steel type easily kills it.
Of course in those 2 situations you have to lead fast fake out user + steel type. Well yes, colbur berry can fuck it up but most jellicents I have faced use mental herb.

I don't know why everybody says "there are better megas". Of fucking course there are, I just like it and find it nice in lots of situations. If I thought there weren't better megas I would be nomming this thing to Tier 1 (sorry about that but it annoys me the fact that everyone says that). And you don't rely on redirection, you just need in several situations if you want to do something else than sweep late game. But still yes, redirection is really helpful.

All that being said, MegaSharp's niche is the fact that he is probably the best late game sweeper. Really powerful and the fastest mon in the tier, and on top of that he's also one of the best anti TR mons. His flaws are his fragility, and maybe the fact that it loses some usage if you don't have redirection. Again, thanks for trying out both MegaSharp and Sharp and giving your opinion ;)
 

talkingtree

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We have been discussing Mega Sharpedo for far longer than it deserves, but since you have spent so much time arguing for it I feel like you deserve some sort of response. Although the fact that you refused to even think about a compromise in nominating it for Tiers 3 or 4 first instead of just making the same claims is kind of obnoxious, I'll overlook that and attempt to speak for some of the VR council as to why we're considering Mega Sharpedo as not good enough; certainly for 2.5 (or 2 which is frankly ridiculous), but also lacking in comparison to many tier 3 and 4 Pokemon.

First, let me address that situation which you are talking about. Not only are you assuming that a Trick Room player's only option is to lead with their Trick Room setter + Fake Out user, but you're also assuming that they don't carry Protect. For example, Blastoise + any Trick Room setter, can just double Protect turn one, then Follow Me + set Trick Room. Aside from this, things like Prankster Wisp + Charm (Sableye and Meowstic), a switch out + target Sharpedo to avoid letting their setter die, or switching into the Fake Out user on Turn 1 so that it can Fake Out Sharpedo will all also stop Shark from doing anything. Without the speed advantage, Mega Sharpedo is a downright liability and against semiroom teams, you're stuck trying to decide whether to mega on your first turn on the field for extra power or save it so that you can have speed against the fastmode of the opponent's team.

If you wanna talk about "the best lategame sweeper", look at things like Water Spout Mega Blastoise, Volcarona, Manaphy, and Diancie. All of them have not only power behind their attacks, but bulk to support that and, typically, some sort of spread move to ensure that you don't have to predict correctly to clean up at the end. Mega Sharpedo also suffers from losing matchups to 4/7 of Tier 1 (MBlastoise, Genesect, Hariyama, and the big one: Tangela), a near inability to deal with any sort of redirection, and frailty that means its 2HKOs that you keep raving about are rarely completed as it drops to those same threats it may 2HKO.

I'm not doubting that you have found substantial success with Mega Sharpedo, but seeing as the ladder is horrible and it is unproven in any sort of tour, my friends on the VR council only have their own experience to go off of, and after talking to most of them I can confirm that they've tried using it with disappointing results. Sure, you did well in that one game against Cyco Vision, but matchup alone had your team winning, even if you didn't have the shark. Unless you have any revolutionary new points that you truly feel have not been articulated to this point, I'd advise you to drop it. All you will accomplish by continuing to belabor the point is leaving a sour taste in the mouths of the very people voting on your nomination's placement. The fact that we haven't immediately dismissed this repeated nomination is already more generous than the Doubles OU VR thread would have been, so please just let it go.

P.S. I don't think that you understood what people are saying about Mega Shark needing to be Jolly. If you want to reach that speed tier of 439+, then it needs to hit that BEFORE Mega Evolution. If you Protect turn 1 and then Mega turn 2, you're still getting outsped by Deo-A if Sharpedo is Adamant (289 * 1.5 = 433.5). If you're really running Mega Sharpedo for the express purposes of beating a few handpicked sets for TR setters, then I guess I could see running Adamant, but even then you're weaker than even Jolly LO Crawdaunt (252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 108 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 263-309 (71.4 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO vs 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 108 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 228-268 (61.9 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO).
 
Talkingtree, I think I didn't explain something really important (my bad), from post 2 I was ok with getting it into th VR, even if it's tier 4 even though I nommed it to tier 2 / 2.5. I did that because I thought a nom to tier 4 wouldn't get much attention, and I actually thought that it could get there.

Yes, I know that you can lead with different things, you can double protect and follow me and play around Mega Sharp in very different ways, as well as you can play around to stop TR from being set up, I regret saying that Mega Sharp can stop TR by itself if I ever did it (I don't know rn, it's late for me it's been days or even a week -I'm not sure- since I wrote all those different posts). However, you can't deny it kills several TR setters, and therefore, it's somewhat good at stopping it.

I also regret saying "probably the best late game sweeper", those weren't the appropiate words, a "really nice late game sweeper if you're not under TR" would be much better. Also, yes, all those late game sweepers you've named are good but somehow different to MegaSharp on their way of sweeping, MegaSharp usually cleans behind a sub or paired with another fast mon without taking a hit (his speed makes this situation being possible). All those you're saying sweep after a boost or just take hits and then they hit. Again, they're just different ways.

I have found substential success with a MegaSharp team I made, not in the ladder tho (I don't play it that much) but with friends. I'll use this situation to say something really quickly: we all (including myself) complain about the fact that the ladder is not really good, but after thinking it for a while, if we want a decent ladder we should start playing it more often, cause we can't demand new players which only play sometimes to become truly good. Maybe we should try to expand DUU as the tier itself (no doubt that some of you do that) and try to teach newer players as much as possible. Coming back to the main topic, no, I don't have any new revolutionary points and I'm tired of talking about this because I'm the only defender os Sharp (most of you don't think it's worth even for Tier 4).

Finally, thank you all for not dismissing this repeated nomination, as you said. I just found myself adding this thing to a team, and from there I started to feel quite interested about this mon, so I made the nomination (a four-part-nomination-post lol) because I liked the mon although I knew there were obviously much better mons and megas than this as maaany people claimed. Thank you for trying the mon and answering, because I feel like you're not actually interested in the mon itself (don't get me wrong, that's completely fine and understandable) unlike me. I'm automatically interested in talking about any mon if it's about his usage in this tier, because I like to feel involved in this.

Now that I think that I've said everything I had to say, please, anybody suggest a new topic to talk about or nom something new lol
 

Platinum God n1n1

the real n1n1
is a Tiering Contributor
We have been discussing Mega Sharpedo for far longer than it deserves
QFT
I didnt really read any of this conversion btw, but I feel like with how few DUU battles happen the viability rankings are kind of based of mostly theory so its really not absurd to be making a case for a mon like sharkpedo to be in tier 2.5.

and I have been losing interest in DUU because there are not a lot of people to battle. imo more room tours pls. maybe #officialDUU ???
 
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Checkmater

It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
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Kinda been just passively following discussion every time I get a notification for this thread but I noticed that my team was a sample so I thought I'd write a little description

The team's focused around setting up Trick Room and then abusing slow but powerful attackers to KO opponents. It has to worry a bit about opposing threats that counter Hariyama (or even just faster Hariyama) as something along the lines of Hariyama+Genesect can give it a tough time. Team member choices were mainly to diversify defensive typing and offensive coverage, with special attention paid to opposing slow threats that might be on a SemiRoom team (Jellicent, Hariyama, Tangela, Diancie come to mind). Greatest difficulty the team faces is definitely the lack of support: it opts for flexibility in 3 setters and having every team member be a powerful attacker, which leaves it with only 1 Fake Out and 2 priority attacks.

As for moving forward with DUU maybe we could get some kind of group teambuilding sessions or even commentated showmatches so that plebs like myself can get a grasp of the teambuilding process and the metagame. I'm also thinking of writing some frameworks for DUU if anyone would be interested in that.

Also if you can I would highly suggest moving away from fucking usage-based tiering: I feel it's a stupid way of determining the metagame (Char X anyone) while also just being stupid in general. Maybe there's some way to make that work idk..
 
I agree with checkmater on the the fact that usage-based tiering may not be the best option. I think there are a lot of usable mons in this tier which may sound bad or even good but nobody has thought about them, and therefore, they're not used and we all overlook them (that's also another reason why I nommed MegaSharp for VR, but let's forget all that). I think this is mainly caused by the little amount of regular players in this tier, if we were more there would be more chances someone tries new things and introduce them into the metagame. I think we all agree that the metagame is still relatively unexplored, so let's try new things to make this meta richer. I don't know if any of you remember when nobody used Roserade, and then someone discovered it and suddenly everybody was using it. Same happened with Crawdunt and even Shiftry in a smaller amount. So same can happen with many other mons. That's the reasoning why I think usage-based tiering is not really good. Very few regular players (compared to other tiers) and therefore there's not a very rich metagame, and therefore there are decent mons which get overlooked all the time
 
Hi again, two months ago I posted a team I built myself (my favourite one), and later on I edited it explaining the changes and all that stuff. Even more changes have happened so instead of just editing the old post and hope that someone sees it, I'll rewrite it.
I could name this team...

Manaphy + Mega Lopunny Offense



Lopunny-Mega @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Fake Out
- Return
- Drain Punch
- Protect

Darkrai @ Focus Sash
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Taunt
- Protect

Arcanine @ Lum Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 236 Def / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flare Blitz
- Extreme Speed
- Protect

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 68 Def / 188 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tailwind
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Pump
- Protect

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Protect

Tangela @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 228 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Sleep Powder
- Rage Powder
- Giga Drain
- Protect

Mega Lopunny and Manaphy sets are standard and I think they need no explanation.
Darkrai carries Ice Beam for coverage and Taunt enables him to surprise some TR setters like Diancie and set up sweepers like Volcarona or Manaphy, as well as shutting down Tangela.
Arcanine ev spread is pretty cool. 16 attack evs with adamant nature always 2HKOes talkingtree's Tangela set (you can see it on Yoda's sample team), always live 2 Rock slides from non-intimidated Mega-Aero and live the combination of non-intimidated Mega Aerodactyl Rock Slide + Volcarona +1 Heat Wave / +1 Bug Buz.
Salamence always lives 2 Rock Slides from intimidated Mega Aero while kills it back with Hydro Pump half of the times (50% chance to OHKO)
Tangela always survives 2 aerial aces from Mega Aero.

Originally, the team was based around supporting the offensive core Mega Lopunny + Darkrai. However, as the time has passed, the main goal has turned into helping Manaphy set up to sweep. To support it you have Tangela as a redirector with the sleep option, Salamence to set up Tailwind, Mega Lopunny which provides fast fake out and then 2 fillers being Arcanine (which also helps with Intimidate, priority and burn option) and Darkrai (which helps with Taunt). Despite all the support they give, every mon has an offensive function as well, even Tangela, which helps against Gastrodon with Giga Drain and opposing Tangela with Sludge Bomb.

As I said, the team originally started with the M-Lopunny + Darkrai core, which puts amazing offensive pressure outside of TR of course. Next thing I added was the Salamence. It resists fight, sets up TW, hit super hard and also supports its teammates with intimidate. At that point I was looking for a bulky mon to help me with M-Abomasnow and TR. Arcanine was the best option: beats MegaSnow and it's also really good against TR. That was also the starting point to make a FWG core. Next came the best (imo) setup sweeper in the tier now that Zard X is gone, Manaphy. It's a based 100 and if you didn't know, that's rather bulky. It has Tail glow which puts you at +3. As the last mon, I opted for Deoxys, which destroyed the fighting types that threatened M-Lopunny and Darkrai. When testing I realized I was kind of weak to TR, so I changed Deo and put Roserade instead. Rather powerful, with Sleep Powder to put to sleep things slower than Rose and also quite good against TR builds. The team worked well, however, as it turned more into helping Manaphy set up, I changed Rose and put Tangela, which supports Manaphy amazingly well with Rage Powder and Sleep Powder

I can't just say you must lead with this against this playstyle, cause teams vary a lot, and although they can be similar in the main strategy they use to win (TR, TW...), mons and wincons vary, so this guide is just a little help, but you should be flexible if you're gonna use this team. That being said, here are some tips.
-Against HO: I usually lead Lopunny + Salamence. The purpose is to set up TW to outspeed the opponent's team and try to win from there
-Against Tailwind Offense: Darkrai + Salamence is a great lead if the opponent doesn't have a fake out user. The purpose is to taunt the opponent's tailwinder and set up your own with Salamence. If there's a fake out user, Lop could be a better choice over Darkrai/ Salamence.
-Against TW Balance: Darkrai + Lopunny. Darkrai taunts the tailwind user and Lopunny fakes out the other slot. You don't need Tailwind on your own cause you're naturally gonna be faster most of the time.
-Against TR: Lopunny + Darkrai/Tangela/Manaphy. Lopunny fakes out the opponent's fake outer and depending on your opponent's Trick Room setter, Darkrai can deal with Psychic types, Jellicent, Cofagrigus and Hoopa, Tangela can Sleep powder if you're sure the opponent's TR setter is not Safety Googles, or if you're not sure of anything and there are several setters, you can Tail Glow with Manaphy and let TR being set up.
-Against Rain: Lopunny + Manaphy / Tangela would be a great option
-Against Sun: This one is a little bit trickier. It's more dependent on the team than any other playstyle I think.
Again, THOSE LEADS MAY VARY DEPENDING ON DIFFERENT FACTORS RELATED TO THE OPPONENT'S TEAM

Be careful if you face Volcarona, that thing is broken and if you allow it to set up it can sweep you easily despite how prepared the team is for it.
There is no safety googles mon in the team so there's no real completely safe switch in for Roserade. However, you still have Darkrai to OHKO it with Ice Beam or Taunt it, and Lum Arcanine which also OHKOes Rose with Flare Blitz.
Tangela could be annoying if the opponent gets rid of some of your mons, but you have Sludge Bomb Tangela on your own, Lum Berry Arcanine and Taunt Darkrai
Mega Aero is a decent threat if you don't play it well. You should play with your intimidate mons, try to burn it with Arcanine or just kill it with Manaphy, but be careful with Sky drops which won't let you hit him so easily

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesuu-384250456 against DaAwesomeDude
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesuu-383252768 against xzern
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesuu-382452537 against Cyco Vision, a friend of mine which has climbed up the ladder to top 1 several times
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesuu-400061286 against silverwhiteblue
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesuu-417332755 against #1 on the ladder



Again, as I did when I posted it for the first time, I invite you to consider it for the Sample Teams, it's my favourite one and I'd be glad if you added it to Samples
 
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Shift is up

With this shift we got Camerupt-Mega, Chandelure, and Porygon2.

While we're not getting Mawile as an abuser we are getting two new setters in Chandelure and Porygon2, the former of which has less speed than Vic and has a harder hitting fire blast (as well as flash fire meaning it walls Victini, Volcarona, Infernape and more) and the latter of which has a ton of bulk to boot. We also get the broken mon that is Camel, here to break the meta again.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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If a mon has been banned before, it can't drop back into the lower tier without a retest. So if it got banned before, then it would be a part of Doubles BL.
 

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