Resource SM Doubles OU Viability Rankings

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Snorlax | Tier 4 —> Tier 3

This pokemon is a frightening setup sweeper and win condition. Its performance in the most recent seasonal should be enough evidence to move this up.

Ferrothorn | Tier 4 —> Tier 3

Ferrothorn is a solid steel type that can check a lot of different pokemon, and can serve as a decent win condition. With Leech Seed and Leftovers, it performs similarly to Celesteela, except it does better against electric types, water types, Kangaskhan, and Trick Room while being worse against Mence and fire types, while also having less flexibility and being unable to boost (unless you use curse). The point is, it does pretty well against a lot of the bulky teams running around, and against more offensive teams it can still take hits and nail stuff with Gyro Ball.
 

kamikaze

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Latest Batch of VR Nominations are done.

Aegislash 1.5 -> 1

Finally: good against mence, stalemate against kanga, bad against char, bad against landorus-t, bad against heatran, bad against hoopa. It’s really good when you can get a sub up, but there’s a lot of viable pokemon that stop it from getting a sub up. Stay in 1.5

kamikaze: No. qsns hit it right on the head

MajorBowman: No. Too many things at the top of the meta threaten it for it to be in tier 1, and a ghost type that mostly just stalemates kanga is pretty awkward

Memoric: No. It’s really good but it’s not really as threatening a force as the other guys in 1. It’s just mostly a punishing pivot that also has some bad mus here and there against stuff like tranner, zard, zygarde, and hoopa.

Qsns: No. tier 1 is an extremely exclusive spot right now and while it’s good, almost always guaranteeing a 1 for 1 with ghostium, it doesn’t command the game in the same way kang/mence/lando-t/tran do. Easy-ish to wear down with some horrendous matchups against pokemon that are a nightmare to switch into (hoopa, chary) makes 1 iffy.

SamVGC: I love Aegislash but i think 1.5 is the perfect home for it, struggles a bit too much with some ultra common threats and has always been a “momentum pokemon”, meaning it plays well from ahead but doesn’t ever really bring back lost games

shaian: fuck hoopa and zyggy 1.5

Amoonguss 2 -> 3
finally: okay against tapu koko with sludge bomb, bad against tapu fini, tapu lele. Good against tapu bulu. It does have merit as one of the few viable redirectors now that jirachi is gone. Dosen’t have good matchups against a lot of tier 1 and 1.5 but it is good against trick room (part of the descrip of tier 2). I think tier 2 is a good place for it, but just barely. A meta shift where we see more mence or heatran could easily push it down to 3. Stay in 2

kamikaze: Abstain

MajorBowman: It’s now the best redirector which is really important, but it is pressured pretty hard by some of the top pokemon like mence and lele. It’s also pretty awkward with misty/electric terrain so that takes some playing around. I’d say leave it in 2 for now but reevaluate soon since I could see amoonguss becoming pretty hard to use

Memoric: no, it has some good mus and is the top redirector in the meta.

Qsns: Amoonguss + lele is good af and it single handedly slams most trick room teams considering how the most popular ones don’t run fini or koko. One of the best uses for it personally has been helmet, as it actually “checks” kang with its high HP (lol kang checks). I like it enough to keep it at 2 but yea I can see it dropping if mence picks up again.

SamVGC: i think it just became the premier redirector in format with the rachi ban, so, fuck no?

shaian:prolly still t2 unless we see a major jump in psychic type in the future or mence becomes more prominent than it already is

Latios 4 -> UR
finally: ive used a decent amount of latios and it has a dicks of a time against the tapus. Tapu fini blocks dracos for its friend, lele slams it, hoopa slams it. The question is: why would you put a latios on your team? the answer is you use it for a ground, water, and fire resist but guess who does that strictly better: mence. Yes to ur

kamikaze: Yes. Rip latios

MajorBowman: Yes, this thing sucks

Memoric: yes, another glennn mon bites the dust,,, It’s just outclassed and has a too much bad matchups now.

Qsns: UR. garbage mon that keeps getting worse as the meta gets bulkier and bulkier. bye

SamVGC: no this shit want even viable in gen 2

shaian:i love latios :( (ur tier tho f)

Hydreigon 3 -> 4 -> UR
Finally: no 3 is a good place because it is a good offensive tailwind setter. There are only a few tailwind setters who can set tailwind and immediately threaten with it. Being walled by the tapus sucks, but dark coverage is good enough to hit the tapus teammate. You can also have your teammate beat up on tapus. Also jaja latios. Stay in 3

kamikaze: 3 for now. Great offensive tailwind setter than functions well vs 2 types of weather as well as decent vs Hoopa-U, Aegis, Heatran.

MajorBowman: With jirachi gone I don’t really see a reason for dark stab anymore, it doesn’t really hit anything notable. I’d say drop to 4 but I will never vote for this thing to be UR.

Memoric: 3. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/doubles-ou-viability-rankings.3592903/page-3#post-7255958

Qsns: It shouldn’t be unranked but Hydrei definitely doesn’t hold up to the rest of tier 3. Weak ass dark pulses in a meta full of fairies and Dracos that get neutered by Misty Terrain means that it doesn’t really threaten much after it sets tw; zapdos gives off more pressure than Hydrei most of the time. It has applications but is generally pretty shit. 4

SamVGC: what the fuck, put it in 4 imo but UR is just funny

shaian: 4: maybe? 3: maybe? UR: lol what the fuck? Im gonna say keep it 3 for now. MF DOOM probably has some interesting shit we ain’t seen yet, something we’ve been -- something I know I’ve been waiting to see

Zygarde-10% UR -> 4 (Dog forme)
Finally: im guessing the choice band set is what interests people, and i have to say zygarde doge forme is bad because of the opportunity cost of not running zygarde snake forme or landorus-t. If you want a quick thousand arrows, you could use scarf lando. If you want setup doge, then you run zygarde snake. This pokemon is cute, but outclassed. Stay in ur

kamikaze: No. Need to see it used much more for it to be ranked.

MajorBowman: Zygarde 50% and Landorus are both objectively ground types better than zygarde doge. Stay UR

Memoric: No, pretty much outclassed. This is a glass cannon that can’t KO much shit. Just use Lando-T, Zygarde-50%, or Deoxys-A for the role you’re going for

Qsns: I think CB snakegarde has potential but there isn’t much in the 95-115 range besides guaranteeing the tie against Timid Lele and +Speed Kyube, and maaaayyybeeee the 110 range for metagross if you think outspeeding a mediocre mon is important. Giving up the bulk isn’t worth it

SamVGC: i fucking love the doggo but no, would be interesting to see in some high level tournament play and i’d be open to reconsidering

shaian: the hell is this pokemon? (no)

Tyranitar 2 -> 1.5
Finally: yes. The ability to threaten ice punch or dragon dance is strong. Tyranitar has a good matchup against a lot of pokemon it just needs some speed help to alleviate its plethora of weaknesses. In this way it’s like a worse hoopa. Also, it’s one of the few hoopa checks/dark resists out there. The fall of jirachi makes tyranitar a little less relevant, but i do think tyranitar is going to see an increase of usage. Yes to 1.5

kamikaze: No. I feel like 1.5 is way too steep a rise for Tyranitar. Yes it can run ice beam to hit the intimidators trying to neuter it but generally speaking TTar can be very deadweight damage wise after an Intimidate vs the rest of your opponent’s team. I do think Band may have a lot of potential but all of the Tapu’s have a good time otherwise vs it except for maybe koko.

Laga: No. I simply think 1.5 is rating ttar too high. He might be anti meta, but his biggest problem last gen is still the most used pokemon in Doubles. He also has a problem dealing with Kanga, the best pokemon atm. If Kanga does get banned, he might see rise in anti-meta usefulness, but in the current state, i simply think 1.5 is too high of a rating of this mon.

MajorBowman: Yes. I love tyranitar and I think it’s great, it stands up to so many popular things and has a lot of flexibility with its sets and items, to the point where it can easily beat some of the things that typically carry coverage moves that hit it (example: chople ttar beats superpower deo-a and lando-t easy). Dumping on Salamence is pretty nice too

Memoric: yes, the high SpDef is really carrying its weight in this metagame. Its typing is nifty too (words I could never say last gen…) as the ability to take on Tranner, ZardY, Mence, Hoopla, and some other boys are nice. The Hoopa matchup in particular is very notable and is such a huge boon. It’s just a great tank in general, personally like CB because it’s an eraser tbh.

Qsns: yes, it checks a ton in the metagame and never really feels like dead weight, as rock slide/crunch/low kick can chip nearly the entire metagame. Tapu matchup isn’t as awful as you think because of how insanely high the spdef is, and being one of the few relevant dark resists is really nice.

SamVGC: abstain, im incredibly iffy here. Im a big ttar supporter but 1.5 feels a bit much. Can we do ttar to 1.75 or nah

shaian: abstain. Kinda nifty but at the same time kinda a bit not nifty. Cb is sick. Darkium is kinda okay too.

Ninetales-A 3-> 2
Finally:good landorus check, good aurora veil support. There isn’t really any other pokemon that fills the niche of screens like ninetales. Gets better with jirachi gone (kinda. Stuff like metagross gets better with jirachi gone, and with metagross better ninetales gets worse). Despite all this good stuff i just said, i can’t get behind a bump to 2 because of the poor natural bulk of ninetales and lack of effect of a ⅓ damage reducer. Too often i will have my ninetales die through screens or even have its partner die through screens. What im saying is it offers a special niche of support, but its support it offers is not good enough. Stay in 3 sorry check

kamikaze: No. agreeing with finally.

MajorBowman: no this thing should be 4 get out

Memoric: no lol, the aurora veil support is nice but everything about it just isn’t 2 material

Qsns: abstain

SamVGC: fuck no lol i didnt even support it to 3

shaian: NO LOL

Rotom-Wash 3 -> 4
Finally: yeah rotom-w sucks. It’s a ground water fire ice resist with water stab. If you want a bulky water that does that you use tapu fini + ground resist. You don’t really need to condense the roles into 1 pokemon like you did last gen. Move to 4

kamikaze: Abstain

MajorBowman: No, Rotom-Wash is still a solid Pokemon that can take a bunch of hits and support teams with speed control, burns, screens, or whatever else. It’s still a premier check to Lando and Mence and beats every fire type, all of which are key roles on teams

Memoric: yes. Depending on the role, this can be pretty much outclassed by zapper or some other bulky water such as Milotic or Fini. It’s only “good” for compressing the roles and both, but that’s not really worth when the whole meta can go nuclear on you and threats such as Kyurem-B and Zygarde are always there.

Qsns: good matchups against most of tier 1, can hold itself vs a lot of 1.5. I’m fine with it staying in 3, I still think role compression is about as valuable as last gen even if rotom-w is suckier as a pokemon

SamVGC: | 21 | Rotom-Wash | 6 | 6.67% | 66.67% |

One of the sneakier better winrates in SPL, i say keep it in 3 for the time being, but could certainly move back down to 4

shaian:agreeing with finally

Zygarde 1.5 -> 1
Finally: a lot of people are calling for a zygarde suspect which i disagree with. I think there are good ways to deal with zygarde, especially with jirachi gone. Landorus t, kanga, hp ice. If heatran/char sees a rise in usage, then i can see this movement because it zygarde is the ground type that resists fire, but char is going down in usage. Kind of hard to use zygarde + mence together unlike mence + lando. Stay in 1.5

kamikaze: 1.5 for now. It is a very strong mon when it gets going but struggles to do that consistently without a good deal of support because of how many boosts it needs to produce big damage output.

MajorBowman: No, this thing is good but way overhyped. It struggles to setup in a lot of games, and even when it can set up it still doesn’t hit overwhelmingly hard. 1.5 is a good place for it

Memoric: 1.5 is fine for this, it can grow into a beast with boosts but it’s hilariously weak without. The meta is adapting n shit too.

Qsns: it’s a good mon but hilariously weak and suffers from the decline in chary/heatran to set up on. Manageable and pretty easy to take hits from even after a dragon dance, which doesn’t exactly scream 1 to me.

SamVGC: 1.5 is fine, i don’t understand the movement to suspect this at all and don’t think its anywhere near strong enough for 1.5

shaian:we as a community need to stop using pokemon that look like shit just because they are “viable” and “threaten a large portion of the metagame” and “can easily setup and go to work with an amazing stab move with no immunities” because it is beneath us. Aesthetics > functionality. Tho id probably keep it in 1.5, though 1 isn’t too far off from what it is.

Buzzwole UR -> 4
Finally:im still kinda unconvinced that buzzwole is better than pheromosa, although i do admit one is meant to be bulky and one is meant to be fast. I have personally not used buzzwole, so i will abstain.

kamikaze: Abstain lol

Laga: I guess this is going to 4 because i can’t make myself vote no. This counts as an abstain for all its worth, but it might as well be a yes...

MajorBowman: Abstain

Memoric: abstain, it looks nice in that it has THE POWER and bulk there + it’s fun, but I’m not fully confident in its ability to fit in this metagame.

Qsns: abstain. Looks fun though

SamVGC: gonna abstain since i haven’t used it at all but could certainly see it moving up

shaian:catch this mon fucking ur bitch, whatchu do? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. 4.

Tapu Bulu 3 -> 2
Finally:no, bulu is the worst tapu. It’s role in disrupting opposing terrain, weakening earthquakes, and slamming wood hammers is good but not great. A lot of things resist wood hammer, and there are ways to get around weak eqs (tectonic rage, thousand arrows). Also tapu koko will often volt switch out when you come in, and then fuck up your terrain when it comes back in. stay in 3

kamikaze: Abstain. Havent used it since rachi ban yet

MajorBowman: I’ve actually grown a lot more fond of Bulu recently, it has some nice resistances and Grassy terrain can actually be a necessity on certain kinds of teams, Z-room Zonger teams being one of them. That being said, I still think it’s a bit of a niche pick and probably not on the same level as the other Tapus, so 3 is a good spot for it.

Memoric: no lol, Tapu Bulu has a nice as a nice utility thing but a lot of stuff are just being an asshole to it : (

Qsns: i am definitely on the tapu bulu hate train and would be more open to see it rise if the fat teams that it’s supposed to break stop having 20 ways to easily switch into it like heatran, celesteela, aegislash, zapdos, mega mence, and amoonguss. :(

SamVGC: absolutely fucking not

shaian:do you think tapu bulus ability to create large amounts of fertile land would help create peace in the middle east and deal with food shortage crises in africa? If so, then i would agree with this.

Mamoswine UR -> 4
Finally:better be groundium z. it does a good job of beating a few select mons (zygarde, landot, heatran) and these pokemon are pretty damn relevant. It has a niche, and it does it’s niche well. Sometimes tr is good with it since it’s base 80 speed. Yes to 4

kamikaze: Yes. Seems ok.

MajorBowman: Yeah sure, hits pretty hard and has a priority move with good coverage

Memoric: yeah, it can surprisingly do a lot of damage to certain teams. Feels like Kyu-B lite Ground typing and worse stats all around. Tho lol.

Qsns: what sam said

SamVGC: yeah i used it in spl and it felt extremely strong, definitely support it to 4 at the least

shaian:yeah i nommed it (not a bad mon in bw as well fwiw)

Whimsicott UR -> 4
Finally:tailwind and encore. Got worse with prankster nerf in tapu lele and dark types. Yet to see usage without terrakion. Stay in ur

kamikaze: UR for now. I think z-nature power sets may have potential though if people wanna try that.

MajorBowman: whimsicott is on my short list of pokemon that make me lose a tad of respect for people that use it. Stay UR

Memoric: same as bowman tbh.

Qsns: i haven’t seen terracott in a high level tournament game. Definitely got worse this gen especially considering rak is tier 4 as well. no

SamVGC: charizard is the premier beat up mon in format, no

shaian: (ur)

Linoone UR -> 4
Finally: its like azumarill. Requires a lot of support, but if you get it rolling it’s good like azumarill. Yes to 4

kamikaze: Yes. I hate chase for making this a thing.

MajorBowman: I guess I can’t say no after I lost to it. I hate you chase

Memoric: can’t argue with results fam.

Qsns: just as stupid as azumarill to deal with given the right support, if not moreso. Easy yes

SamVGC: i guess, though not really a big fan of it personally i can see the merits

shaian:yes i nommed it.


Changes:
Latios moves from Tier 4 to UR
Tyranitar moves from Tier 2 to 1.5
Buzzwole moves from UR to Tier 4
Mamoswine moves from UR to Tier 4
Linoone moves from UR to Tier 4

Mega Kangaskhan is returned to the Outback
 

GenOne

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Kingdra | Tier 3 --> Tier 2

Kingdra is an absolute beast with Waterium Z, hitting everything but bulky resists for huge damage. Several people (myself included) used Kingdra rain offense to get reqs in the last suspect, and for good reason; it's consistent and makes for fast wins against unprepared teams.
 
So Buzzwhole moves from UR to tier 4 with only one out of eight VR-Council members voting 'yes'?
It is clear that nobody has used Buzzwhole and therefore have to abstain from voting. I think it's not right to let just one person decide whether a pokémon should be on the list or not. If more than 50% of the VR-Council abstains from voting, maybe we should consider it as invalid.
I personally do not care where Buzzwhole is on the list but whereas some other pokémon weren't included on the list ''because it hasn't enough usage yet'' Buzzwhole actually got included (and I still do think Pheromosa is better).
 

Arcticblast

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(and I still do think Pheromosa is better).
I agree with the rest of your post, but the simple reason for Pheromosa not being included is: nobody's used it successfully in a high-profile environment such as a late-stage tournament, as opposed to Buzzwole, which was used in SPL

Phero seems like a decent Tier 4 where the meta stands, but I'd hold off on nominating anything for at least a couple weeks; the meta is likely to change a lot now that Kang's gone.
 

MajorBowman

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The difference with Pheromosa is that a lot of us straight up voted no. I personally wasn't comfortable voting on Buzzwole because I literally have never used it and the only person I've seen use it in tournament is Biosci. I'm not going to vote on something about which I have almost zero knowledge :(
 

GenOne

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Bit of a controversial nom considering this exclusively involves Megas, but:

Mega Charizard Y | Tier 1.5 -> Tier 2
Mega Gengar | Tier 2 -> Tier 1.5
Mega Metagross | Tier 2 -> Tier 1.5

The top three Megas right now, imo, are Mence, Gengar and Metagross.

Charizard is still great for breaking down steel-types and being a good wallbreaker, but with a middling Speed tier, lackluster physical bulk and a crippling weakness to Rock-type moves, this mon requires more support than most megas to function well. It's not 1.5 material; it can't "easily be placed on a variety of teams" as any team with Zard on it requires mons dedicated to checking things like scarf Landourus, Tapu Koko, and rain sweepers among other things.

Mega Gengar's high speed tier, respectable power, and access to utility moves makes it splashable on quite a few teambuilds. If you take any number of Kangaskhan teams we saw before the Kang ban, in most cases you can throw either Salamence or Gengar in Kang's slot and still have a respectable team, and I think this is a testament to Gengar's worth as a Tier 1.5 mon. It's frail, and has hard weaknesses to some threats like fast Ground and Psychic attackers, so it's definately not Tier 1 material like Mence, but 1.5 is a good spot imo. If I didn't mention this yet, being able to trap your opposing matchups while you switch to more favourable mons is a huge advantage :)

Mega Metagross isn't as "splashable" as Gengar or Mence per se, but this mega has a solid speed tier, great power, and enough bulk to function with virtually no support. While there are some teambuilds where Mega Metagross isn't the best option, any teambuild that doesn't already have a dedicated Steel-type doesn't have to go far out of its way to let Mega Metagross put in work. Its typing is also fantastic, both defensively and offensively. Resists Salamence's STAB coverage and OHKO's back with Ice Punch. Kills the Tapus. Even OHKO's Zard if Psychic Terrain is up. Metagross is held back a bit by a severe case of 4mss, but at the same time it has a diverse enough movepool to offer compensatory coverage on most teambuilds. Has great matchups against all of the Tier 1/1.5 mons except for the Steel-types, but even then you can run coverage moves to mitigate this shortcoming if you have to.

e: Necrozma | Tier 4 -> UR
Remind me what this mon is again? Haven't seen it in a serious match in months. It peaked and died with Extreme Evopass. It's a worse Cress.
 
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Pocket

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Seconding GenOne's nom. Rain, Salamence, and esp TTar has pos. mu against Char Y imo. Also the occasional SR put a big damper on its longevity. IDK if it's bad enough to be dropped a tier, but it's certainly worse than Metagross and Gengar.
 

Matame

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Porygon Z -> 4

Really cool set up mon that has seen quite a lot of usage in seasonal, most noticeably in grand finals, and will hopefully see some more usage in dpl, where I just snagged a win with it. It just lost a niche as a kang check being able to convert into a ghost type, but it's still insanely powerful, possesses good coverage and therefore can act as fairly nice wincon on teams.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7doublesubers-264094
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-564676411
 

Paraplegic

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Bit of a controversial nom considering this exclusively involves Megas, but:

Mega Charizard Y | Tier 1.5 -> Tier 2
Mega Gengar | Tier 2 -> Tier 1.5
Mega Metagross | Tier 2 -> Tier 1.5

The top three Megas right now, imo, are Mence, Gengar and Metagross.

Charizard is still great for breaking down steel-types and being a good wallbreaker, but with a middling Speed tier, lackluster physical bulk and a crippling weakness to Rock-type moves, this mon requires more support than most megas to function well. It's not 1.5 material; it can't "easily be placed on a variety of teams" as any team with Zard on it requires mons dedicated to checking things like scarf Landourus, Tapu Koko, and rain sweepers among other things.

Mega Gengar's high speed tier, respectable power, and access to utility moves makes it splashable on quite a few teambuilds. If you take any number of Kangaskhan teams we saw before the Kang ban, in most cases you can throw either Salamence or Gengar in Kang's slot and still have a respectable team, and I think this is a testament to Gengar's worth as a Tier 1.5 mon. It's frail, and has hard weaknesses to some threats like fast Ground and Psychic attackers, so it's definately not Tier 1 material like Mence, but 1.5 is a good spot imo. If I didn't mention this yet, being able to trap your opposing matchups while you switch to more favourable mons is a huge advantage :)

Mega Metagross isn't as "splashable" as Gengar or Mence per se, but this mega has a solid speed tier, great power, and enough bulk to function with virtually no support. While there are some teambuilds where Mega Metagross isn't the best option, any teambuild that doesn't already have a dedicated Steel-type doesn't have to go far out of its way to let Mega Metagross put in work. Its typing is also fantastic, both defensively and offensively. Resists Salamence's STAB coverage and OHKO's back with Ice Punch. Kills the Tapus. Even OHKO's Zard if Psychic Terrain is up. Metagross is held back a bit by a severe case of 4mss, but at the same time it has a diverse enough movepool to offer compensatory coverage on most teambuilds. Has great matchups against all of the Tier 1/1.5 mons except for the Steel-types, but even then you can run coverage moves to mitigate this shortcoming if you have to.

e: Necrozma | Tier 4 -> UR
Remind me what this mon is again? Haven't seen it in a serious match in months. It peaked and died with Extreme Evopass. It's a worse Cress.
I agree with the mega noms, but as far as necrozma goes I've been trying it out recently and its actually pretty good. A ton of teams just crumble to it once you remove their steel(s) and hoopa if they have one. I cant do replays right now but I will try to get some later.
 

Paraplegic

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Greninja | UR -> Tier 4
The only one who can learn mat block (smeargle too) which good for set up mon. Can also be a deadly sweeper with it wide movepool (Low Kick,Ice Beam,Gunk Shot,etc) and cool ability which makes all move STAB boosted thanks to protean. Battle Bond also worth consider since it can boost offensive stats. Even Gren quite frail, this mon still pretty good.
Thething about Mat Block is although it seems pretty cool on paper, it practice it falls short of "good" due to the fact that Fake Out disrupts in entirely, and even if the opponent doesnt have a Fake Out user, it still causes one of your mons to sit on the field doing nothing. This might seem fine since you can get free setup or w/e, but it also allows your opponent to take advantage of it by also potentially setting up or using some form of speed control. I don't have an opinion on Greninja since I've never used it, but just wanted to point out Mat Block isn't really a good move and probably shouldn't be used as an argument for ranking a mon.

also tagging GRAND EMPRESS, since he's used ash-ninja quite a bit and can probably offer some insight on if it deserves a potential slot on the rankings or not.
 
4 -> UR
A middling speed stat, poor typing, and cripplingly low physical defense all contribute to this Pokemon's overwhelming suckage. Without Focus Sash it's got zero longevity, and without Life Orb it's piss weak. I've barely seen anyone use this, much less be successful with it.

4 -> UR
Regular Metagross is just bad. Its "element of surprise" isn't enough to justify it being in tier 4. Groundium Z isn't even that good since it lost its primary target in Jirachi, plus your opponent can just Protect or King's Shield to absorb the hit. It's entirely outclassed by Mega Metagross, just use that lol.

4 -> 2
I know Cease Tick already nommed this up to 3, but goddamn this thing is a menace. The Kangaskhan ban was super beneficial for it, since 1) Kang was a pretty big threat to it and 2) since they serve somewhat similar rolls, Snorlax is even better without Kangaskhan's competition for a team slot. Don't sleep on this guy. heh
 

GenOne

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Terrakion Tier 4 -> Tier 3
People hesitate to use fighting types in a meta dominated by tapus, but I've been using this mon a lot lately and it's still a really powerful breaker for stuff like Snorlax, Kyube and steels not named Aegislash. It's mu against Fairies also isnt as bad as you'd think since it outspeeds non-scarfed variants of everything but koko, and can easily pick off weakened tapus with LO-boosted Poison Jab. Lando > Terrakion should almost always be considered when teambuilding, but Terrak is sometimes a better choice if you need a fast breaker imo. It's especially good on rain teams which can't run fire types efficiently to beat stuff like ferro.
 

Toxigen

get numb to it
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DPL Champion
I'm gonna put my 2 cents on this :I

I'm nominating
from tier 1-> tier 1.5 and
from tier 1.5 -> tier 1

Heatran
: I think this mon is still quite good but doesn't deserve tier 1 imo. Rain Psyspam is becoming more popular and vs rain alone is just deadweight most of the times. It's not the best check to psyspam either since it still takes a lot of damage from boosted attacks, it also has an hard time dealing with classic bulky off builds (zapfini etc). I still like it as a MegaMence and sun check and shuca berry hp ice can help vs landot and zyg (ig) but i just dont see this mon being tier 1 at all

Tapu Fini: This pokemon is amazing. The calm mind set is still very good and can punish unprepared teams, but the best set by far is the "superberry support" one. This set can fit in basically any team from tr to standard, its ability to heal and power-up the partner is insane due to its fantastic typing + decent bulk (improved by the berry), it's also a good rain check and its terrain is just the best.
 
I agree with the Heatran nom; not as consistent as the other tier 1s, the rain match up is particularly awful. It's good at what it does, but in some of the roles where it performs best it still has very viable counters. For example, Heatran is a great sun check but Char Y will usually/commonly run HP ground just for tran. Sub Tran is an outstanding Trick Room check, but not if the enemy TR uses Hoopa-U. 1.5 seems best.

Disagree with the Fini nom. It's flexible and consistent, but it lacks the raw offensive power that tier 1 mons have. Fini is pitifully weak, and while it's the best support based Pokemon in the tier, until you have 2 calm mind boosts fini just isn't offensively threatening. Does a Pokemon need to be good at everything to be tier 1? Maybe, maybe not. But Fini isn't as dominating as Landorus-T, the flagship Tier 1 Pokemon.
 
Agreeing with fini nom, pretty indifferent to the heatran nom. I think fini is one of the most meta defining pokemon at this point and is excellent at supporting a team while also being a viable wincon with the CM set. I definitely see it as one of the best pokemon in the format, fits on almost as many teams as Lando-t while having outstanding bulk to survive deep into games.

Also seconding Mega-Gar to tier 1.5 (at least), would even support this thing to tier 1. So far in DPL it has 10 uses and 7 wins with I believe at least 1 of those being a mirror. Gengar is no longer "that pokemon that you use just to snipe kanga's on ladder to make kids angry" its a very threatening pokemon with an extremely spammable move in Sludge Bomb, great third move options in Taunt, HP Ice, and then shit like Skill Swap/Wisp/Sludge Wave/ etc. Trapping the tapus + ice weaks is very valuable to any team and gengar fits on many different teams.
(Consider this a nom to tier 1 so that VR council can just vote on which tier that it should be in)
 

GenOne

DOU main. GMT-7. PS!: GenOne
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I agree with the Heatran nom; not as consistent as the other tier 1s, the rain match up is particularly awful. It's good at what it does, but in some of the roles where it performs best it still has very viable counters. For example, Heatran is a great sun check but Char Y will usually/commonly run HP ground just for tran. Sub Tran is an outstanding Trick Room check, but not if the enemy TR uses Hoopa-U. 1.5 seems best.

Disagree with the Fini nom. It's flexible and consistent, but it lacks the raw offensive power that tier 1 mons have. Fini is pitifully weak, and while it's the best support based Pokemon in the tier, until you have 2 calm mind boosts fini just isn't offensively threatening. Does a Pokemon need to be good at everything to be tier 1? Maybe, maybe not. But Fini isn't as dominating as Landorus-T, the flagship Tier 1 Pokemon.
I'm on the fence about whether Fini is Tier 1 material but weaker mons can still be Tier 1 if they offer exceptional team support and fit in well on most teambuilds. Jirachi was a prime example of a supportive but weak-ish Tier 1 mon, before it was banned of course. I'd say you can't really ever go wrong using Fini (unless your team is built around sleep spam like Amoong or Zong) - Fini shuts down status merely by switching in, pivots into attacks fairly well, and can be used either as a dedicated support mon or as a setup sweeper depending on what your team needs. Muddy Water hax can be pretty clutch/annoying too :^) Even if Fini's not a flashy or "outstanding" mon in any one respect, it's well-rounded enough that you'll rarely screw up your team by adding it in. In this respect I think that Tier 1 might be appropriate. I will admit though that Fini is a bit passive, so if it stays in 1.5 I won't exactly be shocked either. If there was such thing as Tier 1.25 I'd probably put Fini there :)
 
Disagree with the Fini nom. It's flexible and consistent, but it lacks the raw offensive power that tier 1 mons have. Fini is pitifully weak, and while it's the best support based Pokemon in the tier, until you have 2 calm mind boosts fini just isn't offensively threatening. Does a Pokemon need to be good at everything to be tier 1? Maybe, maybe not. But Fini isn't as dominating as Landorus-T, the flagship Tier 1 Pokemon.
GenOne already touched on this a bit but I want to elaborate.

This logic is pretty dumb. A Pokemon doesn't have to be an offensive behemoth to be tier 1. It's literally in the definition: "They are either quite powerful or offer great team support." Look at Jirachi and Amoonguss from XY; they're perfect examples. You conclude by saying Fini isn't as dominant as Landorus-T. Like wow, no shit. Landorus is the most used Pokemon in the format. Tapu Fini simply does so much in one slot; it checks rain, checks status spam from the likes of Bronzong or Amoonguss, and can cancel opposing terrains. This combined with its exceptional set versatility makes it quite deserving of tier 1.
 
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DaAwesomeDude1

waiting for a moment
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On mobile so this will be kinda brief but I'd like to put my two cents on the fini nom. I really don't think it's good enough for tier 1. Calm mind set, as stated above, has 0 offensive presence. And while it does offer pretty good utility for a simple set up sweeper, it's not really good enough to warrant a spot in tier 1. Regarding the swagger/heal pulse set, what really sets it apart from prior tier 1 support mons like jirachi and amoonguss is that how good fini is relies on what Pokémon it is partnered with. Yes, it's really good alongside set up mons like snorlax and zygarde but pair it with something like gengar or zapdos and fini really isn't doing anything impactful. This lack of consistency really sets it apart from prior tier 1 support mons.
 

kamikaze

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Almost a month since the last VR Update. Whoops.....

Zapdos 2 -> 1.5
Finally: yeah. turns out seeds are prettyyyyyyyyy good.

kamikaze: Yes one of the best tailwind setters which also has an offensive presence which also checks the current top mega evolution.

Laga: easily 1.5, been so for a while to be honest.

MajorBowman: Yes, incredibly reliable Tailwind setter and great check to a lot of common pokemon like Salamence and Fini

Memoric: yes, checks a lot of stuff, is a really great bulky piece, and is very reliable at setting up tailwind

Qsns: excellent check to the top megas + a ton of other stuff and both psychic seed/misty seed give it great longevity that allow it to fit on a ton of teambuilds, ranging from good old fini fat to more offensive ones. Probably the best support/utility gen 7 DOU has to offer right now. 1.5

SamVGC: absolutely, one of the best support mons in the format

shaian: absolutely, one of the best support mons in the format

Kartana UR -> 4
Finally: HELL YEAH. me and hashtag fukn slayed in seasonals with this. So the coverage is okay with smart strike, leaf blade, sacred sword. Its gotten better since char is bad. Choice band is funny for smacking around heatrans

kamikaze: Abstain. Love in vgc though

Laga: UR, I really haven’t seen or tried it being more efficient than so many other pokemon in dubs, and VGC is a truly different story here in my eyes. It just doesn’t fill the role you want from a full slot in dubs.

MajorBowman: Abstain. Hasn’t seen much action and I don’t think it’s very good in the format but I could be wrong

Memoric: has a fun mu versus certain defensive cores based on experience, can threaten to be a very dangerous guy. Becomes near deadweight when not against said cores lol rip. Im ok with it in 4

Qsns: nails a lot of the builds where stuff like amoonguss/landorus-t/fini/ttar are relied on as the primary defensive core, which gives it a cool niche, but loses reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally hard when that’s not the style the opponent has. AV has been horrific but life orb utilizes its ability to pressure these styles the best from my experience. I think that’s good enough for 4 considering alolan muk (similar deal on matchup v psychics) is there?


SamVGC: yeah its pretty bad here, grass is a lot harder to spam in this meta

shaian: abstain, very little exploration of this pokemon

Snorlax 4 -> 3
Finally:yeah, giving fat pokemon recover is good

kamikaze: Yes this mon is pretty damn good that I could even see it in 2. In a specially biased meta its natural high special defense allows it to take pretty much anything and curse helps it boost on the def side and pose an offensive threat.

Laga: abstain: gonna abstain since i havent personally tried curse set

MajorBowman: Yes. The curse set can sit around and spam recycle until you can clear a path for it to sweep and belly drum is pretty threatening too. I would vote to move it to 3 for now and wait on moving it to 2 since I think jumping multiple tiers at once is dumb and I really don't think it's worthy of 2 right now, but I think it could have 2 potential in the future.

Memoric: ok

Qsns: curse set is a great general catch-all check to nearly everything due to its fantastic bulk and recovery while still constantly demanding some sort of an answer. I could see this rising to 2 tbh but it definitely deserves 3.

SamVGC: absolutely, and i’d argue it for 2 at this point, curse set is ridiculous

shaian:higher this this yo, bump to 2 if real

Ferrothorn 4 -> 3
Finally:yes. No chars and a lot of deos. It’s good glue with kyuremb and landorus-t teams.

kamikaze: Yes this mon has started to be much more useful again with the rise of psyspam and jirachi being gone. Zard also has dropped in usage.

Laga: Yes, ive never really seen the decline as hard as its been reflected in the rankings. Obviously Heatran is still relevant, but thats really the main issue of this mon, and when the issue only REALLY extends to one threat, it’s pretty good.


MajorBowman: Yes. Ferrothorn hasn’t really changed at all since gen 6 and probably got a little better with all the new fairies, it just wins games on its own if you can get rid of fire types

Memoric: memoric was right all along

Qsns: fire types have been on the decline since the metagame began + rain/psychic spam are becoming much scarier. It’s ferro’s time to shine

SamVGC: yes, ferro is cash and the meta is perfect for it right now

shaian:fuck fini zap cores

Kingdra 3 -> 2
Finally:yes. Rain dance kingdra turns kingdra from “needs pelipper support” into “it can support itself”. Even though tapu fini zapdos kinda cucks this, thats why you bring your friends BIG PSYCHIC to beat em up

kamikaze: Yes. Rains best lategame cleaner.

Laga: No. Really entirely because of Muddy Water’s accuracy, if that move was 95 or 100 it would easily be higher up.

MajorBowman: No. I hate this mon so much because every time I use it I get disappointed by its damage output and/or blindness. Z Hydro Pump is good once but then you’re relying on inaccurate moves to do mediocre damage

Memoric: 2, one of the most threatening mons held back only by accuracy and rain turns. It’s capable of breaking stuff with rain hydros and, if it consistently hits, is a pretty damn good at cleaning / apply notable damage to teams that’s nifty for punching holes

Qsns: I don’t know what world Bowman’s living in where life orb Hydro Pumps don’t sting but I’m able to consistently scare the hell out of opponents with that threat. One of the best late game cleaners in the tier. eZ 2

SamVGC: no on the basis that it isn’t consistent enough in hitting moves, if it had more accurate moves id be behind it

Shaian: abstain cuz yeah

Mega Charizard Y 1.5 -> 2
Finally:yes. cost opportunity of running zard vs mence or metagross is too high.

kamikaze: Yes. while its still decent, TTar usage has gone up way too high for me to be comfortable with this in 1.5

Laga:abstain

MajorBowman: Yes. The prevalence of all the other weathers has made Zard a lot harder to use consistently, which is sad because I think it was one of the best megas at the start of the format. Still a good mon but not always worth the mega slot anymore, would probably put it at the top end of tier 2

Memoric: Si, TTar is a bitch lol. Still cool though. Also, some things are a bitch to it still

Qsns: rise of TTar and sun archetypes losing to the newer rain teams make its weather actually contested unlike last gen. a lot less impactful than the top 3 megas + i haven’t seen any zard teams that have impressed me (sun + psyspam seems inferior to the rain counterpart). drop to 2.


SamVGC: yes, i havent been able to find hardly any zard teams this gen that actually seem solid, hard to support it properly especially given huge ttar rise

shaian: the time for zard is soon fams sooon. But yeah 2 :/

Mega Gengar 2 -> 1.5
Finally:ok, but only because hidden power ice is the trend for the 4th move. I still think salamence is the best mega, so being able to outspeed and slam it is good. 252 SpA Gengar-Mega Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence-Mega: 348-412 (105.1 - 124.4%)

kamikaze: yes this mon is absolutely amazing at controlling the pace of the game from start to finish and its dual stabs have so many relevant targets this gen

Laga: Yes. super difficult mon to rank considering how amazing it CAN be and how absolutely worthless it also can be. It’s in one of the better spots its ever been in though, so 1.5 is good


MajorBowman: Yes this thing is so good holy shit

Memoric: memoric yet again ahead of the competition,,, being able to control the board and just being able to dictate matchups is quite crisp and clean, and there’s also the fact that MGar itself is a dangerous offensive piece with its high Speed and SpA + solid coverage. Very fun and is capable of just picking teams apart. 100% a top 2 mega, if not 1 (fuk off shay)

Qsns: one of the few mons that truly excels both as a lead and late game due to its unique control on a match, and the best way for more offensive teams to dismantle the bulkier ones. 1.5


SamVGC: gonna say yes because its getting put up anyway but im a little skeptical

shaian: shaian yet again ahead of the competition,,, being able to control the board and just being able to dictate matchups is quite crisp and clean, and there’s also the fact that MGar itself is a dangerous offensive piece with its high Speed and SpA + solid coverage. Very fun and is capable of just picking teams apart. 100% a top 2 mega, if not 1

Mega Metagross 2 -> 1.5
Finally:agree with sam.

kamikaze: No. I dont feel it has impressed too much for a rise.

Laga: Abstain. Really strong mon, but cant really decide between the two ratings.

MajorBowman: Yes. Metagross is in a great speed tier and is one of the best Salamence checks in the format, plus it has super good coverage after its mandatory steel stab that can be boosted by either psychic or electric terrain (yall sleepin on thunder punch shoutouts miltankmilk) so I think it deserves 1.5

Memoric: Yes, really strong threat that’s capable of beating down p much a majority of the meta. The Speed tier, nifty typing, bulk, and power all in one nice package is pretty ace. Pressures the increasingly getting slower / bulkier meta p nicely, and can take on psychic spam p well

Qsns: strong coverage that smashes the entire tier + jirachi being banned make this probably (?) the second best mega. Metagame trends like an increase in bulkier offense definitely favor it, and considering it was already a pretty big threat, 1.5 is justified.


SamVGC: i think its enjoying a nice spike right now but i don’t expect it to last once people adapt to it, gonna say no

shaian: this mon is ugly. UGLY. (nah b)

Necrozma 4 -> UR
Finally:yes. unlucky

kamikaze: Abstain

Laga: Yea its not good anymore but fk all of u for giving it shit because i lost to a not-min-speed azu on a team with a jirachi >:( memo made it look bad too i guess :p


MajorBowman: get this shit out of here

Memoric: i resent this, it’s still ok :(, and that sun team was cash fuk u

Qsns: ever since memoric and laga stopped using that shitty tapu bulu sun this thing saw no usage. It really really sucks. bye

SamVGC: i legitimately forgot this was a pokemon

shaian:lol

Porygon Z UR -> 4
Finally:i mean it fits the definition of tier 4 (a little better than memes). yes

kamikaze: Yes Demantoid has shown how threatening this mon can be

Laga: Abstain. kinda doubtful but i guess the z move is pretty fire.

MajorBowman: Yes. Z conversion makes it super versatile and can keep you guessing at team preview, and some other rogue sets like breakneck blitz or scarf aren’t bad either

Memoric: Z Conversion is lit

Qsns: Yes, I’ve used this on a few teams and it’s been pretty effective. Insanely strong after setting up and fast ghost STAB is nuts when the best dark type is hoopa and the only normal got banned.

SamVGC: yeah, haven’t used much myself but it seems to be at the least a 4

shaian:yeah was in like what all the games from finals least sneasal so its gotta be doing something right

Greninja UR -> 4
Finally:chase…………………………………….

kamikaze: No. I havent seen this mon do too much besides Chase using it on one team. Grand Empress used it too but it seemed lackluster

Laga: Absolutely not this is a shining example of a good singles pokemon that sucks ass in doubles


MajorBowman: ehhhhh the only time this thing gets used is on the linoone team so i’m gonna go with no

Memoric: ash gren is flames (no)

Qsns: mat block is hilarious but nah


SamVGC: theoretically a tier one pokemon in any format but in reality its almost never good, gonna say no

shaian:chase……...


Changes:
Zapdos moves from Tier 2 to 1.5
Kartana moves from UR to Tier 4
Snorlax moves from Tier 4 to 2 (sped up)
Ferrothorn moves from Tier 4 to 3
Kingdra moves from Tier 3 to 2
Mega Charizard Y moves from Tier 1.5 to 2
Mega Gengar moves from Tier 2 to 1.5
Necrozma moves from Tier 4 to UR
Porygon Z moves from UR to Tier 4
 
Mega gyarados UR -> 4
I know gyarados is tier 4 but we had both metagross and megagross on the list for a short while so I'm posting this.
This thing is surprising bulky with its base stats and its access to Dragon Dance lets it easily setup, and then proceed to heavily damage anything that isn't Tapu Fini with its STABs. Pairing it with Amoonguss makes this mon really shine, and checks Rain+Psyspam pretty well.
 

Snorlax 2 -> 1.5

This may be a quick rise (was 4 not even a month ago) but I think its performance in recent tournaments and its impact justify it. Snorlax (along with its partner in crime, Tapu Fini) is the face of Balance in this metagame and takes advantage of Jirachi and Kangaskhan's exit, two Pokemon that kept many faster offensive teams alive. Its access to an immediate recovery option without clicking a move make it an immediate threat capable of setting up viably as early as turn 1 and unlike the more passive boosters such as Fini and Cress, start dishing out serious damage with only a single boost. It entirely dominates any late game position it's put in and can regularly beat 2 'mons beating up on it at once with its ridiculous recovery. While I believe Doubles OU can adapt to this threat, it'd be a mistake to leave this in Tier 2 as long as it keeps performing this well.



Ferrothorn 3 -> 2

What two attacking types as STAB are dying or are already nearly nonexistent in the meta??????? Fire and Fighting!!!!!! This is the dream for Ferrothorn, as its able to effectively check every threat in the top two tiers (besides Heatran, which is getting lower usage/is easier to deal with) without being constantly threatened out by Heat Waves. All it wants to do is sit there and sap at your life and considering the best way for half of the best fat teams right now to dent Ferrothorn is throw a Hyperspace Fury at it, deal 45%, and promptly get dunked by Power Whip, I'd say its preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetty good at doing that rn.
 
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