[COMPLETED] Greninja

The only reason to use a Grass-type move would be for Rotom-W, Suicune who is unobtainable, Gastrodon (who I doubt will be seeing any use) and Jellicent (who isn't released yet) and since Grass Knot hits it for like 20BP(Rotom-W that is), Dark pulse seems more solid nailing Starmie and wrecking Aegislash and other Ghost-types with the added benefit of Flinching. Grass Knot has good coverage for sure but the things that it can hit for good damage are limited (almost all of those things get wrecked by Hydro Pump anyways). One pokemon that i need to calc is Gyarados but aside from that, I think pulse is better. Tentacruel gets hit for the same base power iirc but you don't need to stay in on that anyways...

PS. If only the thing got Energy Ball

EDIT: Grass Knot shreds Gyarados apart while Dark Pulse fails to even 2HKO but that is about it.
 
Last edited:
ugh I know I'm really late about this, sorry. but is dark pulse really necessary on greninja? I mean, it gets STAB on all of its attacks anyway, so it's not like dark pulse is more powerful than other moves. I think it'd be more useful to use something like grass knot which has better coverage with its water moves which are going to be its main moves to spam anyway, and overall would make it a more dangerous sweeper.
It gets a super-effective hit on Aegislash while retaining a Ghost-type resistance, which is huge.
 

Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
Greninja (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Torrent/Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- U-turn
- Taunt
- Night Slash
- Waterfall

I'm running this set as a lead at the moment. I think it has a lot of value as a full physical anti-lead. It's not very bulky, but it's quick and with U-turn gains lots of momentum. Taunt is useful as an anti-lead against hazard leads, albeit going after prankster klefki. Dual physical STABs are fairly straightforward. I think because it's so frail it's a solid option to avoid running spikes and instead use it to gain momentum, especially since taunt tends to force a switch. Also, going faster than many set-up sweepers, it makes it a very viable taunt user.

Surely a set similar to that should get a mention?

Sorry my formatting's a bit messed up.
 

bugmaniacbob

Was fun while it lasted
is an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
REMOVE
ADD
COMMENT


[Pros]
<ul>
<li>Great coverage and movepool.</li>
<li>Amazing ability in Protean, enabling it to get STAB on its moves regardless of their type as Greninja itself becomes the type of the attack being used. This in turn can cause some mind games to occur.</li>
<li>High base Speed in addition to access to Spikes.</li>
<li>Has access to two priority moves, Shadow Sneak and Water Shuriken.</li>
</ul>

[Cons]

<ul>
<li>Sports poor defenses (67/71) and weak to many of the common attacking types.</li>
<li>While Protean is a good ability with many positives, it also has an ugly side. After executing the relevant attack, Greninja may find itself in a bit of a bad spot (For instance, using Ice Beam will expose it to Steel- and Fire-type attacks which it was able to take on to a certain extent with its original typing).</li>
<li>Has no boosting moves outside of Power-Up Punch, which is a letdown considering it does not have the best of offenses.</li>
</ul>


<p>Greninja@Life Orb<br />
Ability: Protean<br />
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe<br />
Hasty / Timid Nature<br />
- Hydro Pump / Surf <br />
- Ice Beam<br />
- Dark Pulse<br />
- U-turn / Hidden Power Fire</p>


<p>This is a Full full-on attacking attack set. Hydro Pump is a solid Water-type STAB attack, and despite the slight nerf to power,(comma) is still pretty deadly. Ice Beam is necessary in order to take out pesky Grass- and Dragon-types. The third moveslot features Dark Pulse,(comma) which is designed useful both as a reliable secondary STAB attack and to give Starmie a world of pain. Not to mention it does some solid damage to Tentacruel. The former move. For the final moveslot, U-turn can be used for momentum-grabbing purposes and compliments complements Greninja's blazing Speed. Alternatively, Hidden Power Fire can be used,(comma) and is helpful primarily for Pokemon who are 4x weak to it,(comma) such as Scizor and Ferrothorn; however, as it has low Base Power and would not do much to Pokemon who only are only 2x weak to it, you are better of firing off a Hydro Pump in those situations. Despite the Life Orb boost, Greninja still is in need of entry hazard support,(comma) which is vital for securing numerous OHKOs and 2HKOs.</p> [example?]

<p>This Greninja in particular is generally most effective mid-game to late-game as it requires entry hazard support to ensure various OHKOs and 2HKOs [redundant with above statement, delete one or the other]. As it can act as a momentum grabber with U-turn, it is key to have other Pokemon which can take advantage of the Pokemon it lures in [how? examples?]. While Grass Knot may not see much use on Greninja, it is the only way in which Greninja can dispose of Gyarados with ease, landing a 2HKO on Gyarados while outright OHKOin OHKOing Mega Gyarados.</p>

<p>Greninja @ Life Orb / Focus Sash<br />
Ability: Protean / Torrent<br />
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe<br />
Timid Nature<br />
- Spikes<br />
- Hydro Pump / Surf<br />
- Dark Pulse / Ice Beam<br />
- Hidden Power Fire </p>

<p>This set allows Greninja to support its team, while still being be a potent force to be reckoned with, in addition to by setting up a layer or two of Spikes,(comma) made easier thanks to its high base Speed. Power over versus accuracy is what it is all about in determines your choice for moveslot two. Dark Pulse, despite being resisted by Fairy-types, now has the added benefit of not being resisted by Steel-types,(comma) and cleanly . Dark Pulse finishes off Starmie and can dent as well as denting Tentacruel,(comma) who otherwise walls you to hell and back. Alternatively, Ice Beam stops Dragonite and company cold, literally. It also allows for the 2HKO on Togekiss after Stealth Rock damage in addition to nailing Crobat. It doesn't stop there Finally, Hidden Power Fire can be used to hit those Steel-types which sport typings that make them are 4x weak to Fire-type attacks. This set is designed to be used early on in the game and put a considerable amount of pressure on the opponent from the get-go.</p>

<p>As Greninja sports a better Special Defense stat compared to its Defense stat, it is only natural to run a nature that would not lower the former. [What does that have to do with this set? You're not lowering either defensive stat... maybe this was for the first set?] A Timid nature is used to ensure no drops in either defensive stat. Life Orb can be used for maximum damage output,(comma) or a Focus Sash can be used to ensure more layers of Spikes being set up. This set ensures that the Spikes that are set up stay on the field are not removed while Greninja is on the field, as Greninja can OHKO most Rapid Spinners, as well as spinners and Scizor / Mega Scizor,(comma) who can use simply Defog the arena.</p>

<p>An alternative set consisting of Toxic Spikes, Spikes, Hydro Pump (or Surf) and Taunt can be utilized as Greninja is arguably the best dual Spiker in the game, because of its high Speed, access to Taunt, and torrent Torrent ability,(comma) which boosts to boost its Water-type move once Focus Sash has been activated. Taking advantage of Team Preview to lay the appropriate hazard is key, such as Spikes if your sweeper is walled by their Ferrothorn, or Toxic Spikes if it's walled by their Blissey.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Blissey, Tentacruel, and Fairy-type Pokemon such as Azumarill and Florges all spring to mind when one wants to deal with this pesky reptile amphibian [frogs aren't reptiles]. Ferrothorn can tank all of Greninja's common moves;(semicolon),(remove) however, it has to watch out for Hidden Power Fire. Both Gyarados and Rotom-W can take any hit Greninja wants to throw relatively well and retaliate with their STAB attacks.</p>

<p>Revenge killing Greninja is not the hardest thing in the world. Mach Punch from Conkeldurr and Breloom can send this ninja packing for a one-way trip to the shadow realm [... ... ... no comment]. Choice Band priority users such as Dragonite can also do a number on Greninja. Bringing Greninja down to a range where it can be OHKOed by ExtremeSpeed is not hard at all; between residual damage from entry hazards and Life Orb,(comma) Greninja can be worn down alarmingly quickly. Talonflame easily outpaces Greninja and can end its life with a single swipe of its wings using Brave Bird. Choice Scarf users such as Rotom-W and naturally faster Pokemon (such as Crobat) can outspeed and finish Greninja with their powerful STAB attacks.</p>


GP 1/1
 
Greninja (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Torrent/Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- U-turn
- Taunt
- Night Slash
- Waterfall

I'm running this set as a lead at the moment. I think it has a lot of value as a full physical anti-lead. It's not very bulky, but it's quick and with U-turn gains lots of momentum. Taunt is useful as an anti-lead against hazard leads, albeit going after prankster klefki. Dual physical STABs are fairly straightforward. I think because it's so frail it's a solid option to avoid running spikes and instead use it to gain momentum, especially since taunt tends to force a switch. Also, going faster than many set-up sweepers, it makes it a very viable taunt user.

Surely a set similar to that should get a mention?

Sorry my formatting's a bit messed up.
Sorry, it has already been decided by QC that a physical set is just ineffective. You don't achieve anything and just get walled by even more Pokemon than the Special sets.

GP check implemented.
 
Last edited:

ShootingStarmie

Bulletproof
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Hey, just a tiny comment, but you need to space out your first set. This is it currently...


<p>Greninja@Life Orb<br />
Ability: Protean<br />
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe<br />
Hasty / Timid Nature<br />
- Hydro Pump / Surf <br />
- Ice Beam<br />
- Dark Pulse<br />
- U-turn / Hidden Power Fire</p>

And this is what it should be...


<p>Greninja @ Life Orb<br />
Ability: Protean<br />
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe<br />
Hasty / Timid Nature<br />
- Hydro Pump / Surf <br />
- Ice Beam<br />
- Dark Pulse<br />
- U-turn / Hidden Power Fire</p>
 
Grass Knot > Dark Pulse for certain. Water/Grass/Ice provides the nearly perfect neutral coverage and most of the threats in OU are heavier. I've a more detailed description on why Dark Pulse shouldn't be used in the Greninja thread in Uncharted Territories, but I'll talk about more here.

Notable threats Dark Pulse hit hardest:
Aegislash
Metagross (being nerfed after being bad the whole gen5)
Jirachi (unreleased)
Reuniclus (doubt it being used)
Rotom-W

Notable threats Grass Knot will hit hardest:
Azumarill
(Mega)Blastoise

Gastrodon (maybe irrevlevent)
Opposing Greninja (only matters on the switch)
Gyarados
Jellicent

Hippowdon (at least more accurate than H-pump)
Keldeo (unreleased)
Kingdra (may see some use with Drizzle+SS is unbanned)
Mamoswine (same with hippo)
Politoed (may still see decent use)
Terrakion (unreleased, same with hippo)
Tyranitar (matters against SpDef Assault Vest)
Vaporeon (should be irrelevant)

Hit equally hard (hardest):
Starmie
Tentacruel

Grass Knot hits significantly more things harder than Dark Pulse, especially considering many things Dark Pulse hits SE is also hit SE by Hydro Pump or Ice Beam, both having higher base power. With Hydro Pump being nerfed, Grass Knot is the move that deals the most damage, especially in a generally heavy metagame. That 10BP matters when it increase the chance of 2HKOing SpDef Assualt Vest Tyranitar from 32% to near guaranteed, not to mention its perfect accuracy over H-pump. Dark Pulse loses out with its terrible SE coverage (only ghost and psychic) and low base power. The flinch chance is a bonus, but not significant enough to warrent it a moveslot over Grass Knot. Grass Knot should be the main option on the analysis while Dark Pulse should only be put in OO.
 

alexwolf

lurks in the shadows
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
U-turn is your best move against Assault Vest Tyranitar anyway, while Rotom-W and Aegislash are extremely important targets atm, so Dark Pulse stays slashed first for now.
 
C AllStar I have explained to many people via IRC/PM various times that Grass Knot is not going to be used. QC as a whole have agreed to have Dark Pulse in that moveslot until Pokebank is released.

ShootingStarmie fixed
 
Last edited:
a couple of things that i think should be brought up would be first of all the use of extrasensory in the final moveslot (after surf/hydropump, dark pulse, and ice beam) This would enable greninja to take out the numerous fighting types in the tier, most notably pangoro, who will pose problems to greninja. Another thing that i believe is worth mentioning would be a set that uses an expert belt, which helps to extend the life of greninja, who granted, will usually outspeed oppponents but with a few life orb hits of damage, a shadow sneak aegislash will come and wreck house, but if you arent loosing that hp every turn, you may be able to tank it, anyway thats my two cents.
 

jrp

Banned deucer.
a couple of things that i think should be brought up would be first of all the use of extrasensory in the final moveslot (after surf/hydropump, dark pulse, and ice beam) This would enable greninja to take out the numerous fighting types in the tier, most notably pangoro, who will pose problems to greninja. Another thing that i believe is worth mentioning would be a set that uses an expert belt, which helps to extend the life of greninja, who granted, will usually outspeed oppponents but with a few life orb hits of damage, a shadow sneak aegislash will come and wreck house, but if you arent loosing that hp every turn, you may be able to tank it, anyway thats my two cents.
Pangoro is immune to extrasensory
 
No set with 96 Atk / 168 SpA / 244 Spe EVs?

This spread allows you to OKHO the majority of targets and outspeed the majority of threats (Namely, base 120s and lower). It also offers valuable KOs with U-Turn, here are some calcs (Credit to VCrowe for the calcs and spread):
168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Scizor: 442-530 (128.48 - 154.06%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 257-304 (70.6 - 83.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 468-551 (128.57 - 151.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 608-717 (157.51 - 185.75%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rocks

96 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 312-369 (93.41 - 110.47%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 302-359 (85.79 - 101.98%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress: 614-723 (173.44 - 204.23%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 702-827 (196.08 - 231%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 769-910 (218.46 - 258.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 351-416 (108.66 - 128.79%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 330-393 (101.22 - 120.55%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0- SpD Landorus-T: 811-957 (212.86 - 251.18%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 406-478 (145.51 - 171.32%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 281-330 (93.35 - 109.63%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO

96 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Celebi: 421-499 (123.46 - 146.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I feel as though the KOs on Celebi and Espeon, and other squishy psychics such as Alakazam warrant the Attack EVs. The only reason to go full speed EVs would be to speed tie other Greninja, which just isn't worth it especially since you have to choose to be SE if you win or SE if you lose the tie (If you choose wrong, then your hit may be resisted or even immune in some cases). Also, Grass Knot is a fantastic option over HP Fire if you need the grass coverage (You fail to mention it as a slash option).
 

AccidentalGreed

Sweet and bitter as chocolate.
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
No set with 96 Atk / 168 SpA / 244 Spe EVs?

This spread allows you to OKHO the majority of targets and outspeed the majority of threats (Namely, base 120s and lower). It also offers valuable KOs with U-Turn, here are some calcs (Credit to VCrowe for the calcs and spread):


I feel as though the KOs on Celebi and Espeon, and other squishy psychics such as Alakazam warrant the Attack EVs. The only reason to go full speed EVs would be to speed tie other Greninja, which just isn't worth it especially since you have to choose to be SE if you win or SE if you lose the tie (If you choose wrong, then your hit may be resisted or even immune in some cases). Also, Grass Knot is a fantastic option over HP Fire if you need the grass coverage (You fail to mention it as a slash option).
Latios, Celebi, and plenty of other threats you mentioned are currently unreleased. Additionally, with only 4 Atk EVs, the threats that ARE present currently still take heavy damage from U-turn, and whoever stays in must suffer the loss of momentum as a result. Splitting offensive EVs also detract from Greninja's special offense, which is sort of the main reason you're using it, significantly.

Feel free to suggest this when Greninja gets an actual analysis in January.
 
Latios, Celebi, and plenty of other threats you mentioned are currently unreleased. Additionally, with only 4 Atk EVs, the threats that ARE present currently still take heavy damage from U-turn, and whoever stays in must suffer the loss of momentum as a result. Splitting offensive EVs also detract from Greninja's special offense, which is sort of the main reason you're using it, significantly.

Feel free to suggest this when Greninja gets an actual analysis in January.
I'm sorry, but I don't see the point in building sets around a 454 Meta that won't be relevant in about a month. You might as well ignore the current limitations and think long term. I can see where the amount in SpAtk EV's would depend on preference, but having max Spd just to speed-tie a mirror that should be avoided like the plauge just seems like a waste of potential.
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I'm sorry, but I don't see the point in building sets around a 454 Meta that won't be relevant in about a month. You might as well ignore the current limitations and think long term. I can see where the amount in SpAtk EV's would depend on preference, but having max Spd just to speed-tie a mirror that should be avoided like the plauge just seems like a waste of potential.
These Previews are not for the upcoming metagame. They are short analyses that are meant to be used for the current OU. That's why we're not including Pokémon that are unavailable at the moment, nor moves that are available only through Gen 5 or bellow tutors/events.
 
I don't normally post in these threads, but here goes:

If Endeavor is obtainable, via Archeops > Corphish Grenjnja, would a Focus Sash + Endeavor + W Shuriken be a good Revenge set?

To compare, it would be similar to Mamoswibe's OU set in Gen 5. I haven't tried the breed yet because I don't have the Pokemon, but you guys do.

I wanted to add more to this topic... bug I forgot :(
 
[Set Recommendations]​

<p>name: All-Out Attacker<br />
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf<br />
move 2: Ice Beam<br />
move 3: Dark Pulse<br />
move 4: U-turn / Hidden Power Fire<br />
ability: Protean<br />
item: Life Orb<br />
evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe<br />
nature: Hasty / Timid</p>

<p>This is a full-on attacking set. Hydro Pump is a solid Water-type STAB attack, and despite the slight nerf is still pretty deadly. Ice Beam is necessary in order to take out pesky Grass- and Dragon-types. The third moveslot features Dark Pulse, which is useful both as a reliable secondary STAB attack and to give Starmie a world of pain. Not to mention it does some solid damage to Tentacruel. For the final moveslot, U-turn can be used for momentum-grabbing purposes and complements Greninja's blazing Speed. Alternatively, Hidden Power Fire can be used,and is helpful primarily for Pokemon who are 4x weak to it, such as Scizor and Ferrothorn; however, as it has low Base Power and would not do much to Pokemon who only are only 2x weak to it, you are better of firing off a Hydro Pump in those situations. Despite the Life Orb boost, Greninja still is in need of entry hazard support, which is vital for securing numerous OHKOs and 2HKOs.</p>

<p>This Greninja in particular is generally most effective mid-game to late-game and is focused on putting pressure on the opposing team by spamming its Protean-made STAB attacks. When faced with something you cannot defeat, simply take Greninja's blazing speed to your advantage anD U-turn out of there. As it can act as a momentum grabber with U-turn, it is key to have other Pokemon which can take advantage of the Pokemon it lures in. While Grass Knot may not see much use on Greninja, it is the only way in which Greninja can dispose of Gyarados with ease, landing a 2HKO on Gyarados while outright OHKOing Mega Gyarados.</p>
First off, you really don't need to point out that attacks are STAB. Everything is STAB, so the fact that an attack happens to match your original water/dark typing doesn't matter at all.

Second, Hidden Power does outdamage Hyrdo Pump if the opponent is 2x weak to fire and neutral to water. Hidden Power does 60 base, x2 for typing, for a total of 120, while Hydro Pump does a flat 110 (remember STAB doesn't change things in Hydro Pump's favor). Bonus points to Hidden Power for not missing.
 
That does not necessarily mean that those moves are viable options for Greninja.
Not justifying. Just sayin'. To be fair, that Grass Knot left a big dent in my Tyranitar. That is probably the only scenario that you'll wish you'd taken Grass Knot maybe kind of. Being able to mask your type with Protean in general sounds like a good idea--the fact most Greninja's don't take it make your type less predictable granted the moves are still worth using. Like picking up a Fighting resistance in Extrasensory seems like a usable trait provided the rest of your team benefits more from having some Fighting resistance than a more offensive Greninja. More options will probably be a valuable asset to ensure overall viability of Greninja as the meta shifts.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top