CAP Updates: Revenankh Discussion (Complete)

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Reachzero and En Passant told everything wrong with Offensive Revenankh, I fully agree with them and I want to keep Defensive Revenankh. Here's my thoughts about abilities brought up:

- Mummy, while being a very good ability itself, seems more like a flavor one to me. It allows to stop some Sweeper that absolutely need their ability like M-Mawile, Azumarill, Metagross-M, Pinsir-M and other threats which will be back later like Medicham-M, Altaria-M and Lopunny-M. Cofagrigus already fulfill this role excellentely as he has a very good physical and isn't plagued by Flying, Fairy and Psychic weaknesses. Revenankh has no choice but to sacrifice himself to prevents them to sweep your team.

- Regenerator will turn Revenankh into a very good pivot. I don't know if I should talk about another CAP Update which hasn't started yet, but I think this ability fits more on something like Kitsunoh. Revenankh, as a Stallbreaker, doesn't really need this, but changing his task doesn't bother that much though.

- Poison Heal is by far my favorite ability as he doesn't have to rely on Moonlight, which has low PP and isn't effective if another weather than the Sun is on the field or if Rev hasn't Air Lock, or Rest, which depends on your luck with Shed Skin (Regenerator is another way to free a moveslot, I know). PH allows to use Substitute, Phantom Force and Bulk Up effectively and in this way, Revenankh becomes a pretty good stallbreaker.

I don't have much to say about Filter, Heatproof or Thick Fat yet. But I don't feel that Fire and Ice resistance are needed, especially on a Stallbreaker Revenankh.
 

reachzero

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I realize that we *just* went over this with Arghonaut, but Arghonaut and Revenankh actually had pretty similar issues, while Arghonaut has Recover and switches into Water and Fire attacks, while Revenankh is still searching for a niche and has to settle for Moonlight. That being said....

Revenankh *does* resist U-turn, just as Arghonaut does, and Moonlight is noticeably worse than Recover, which means that the search for a suitable defensive ability on Revenankh should probably include Rough Skin. This punishes U-turn really well, and unlike Arghonaut, Revenankh's typing isn't really suitable for pivoting on random physical attacks like Meteor Mash and Ice Punch. I don't like the idea as much as Poison Heal because it doesn't do much for Revenankh once it's actually in, and it doesn't really help it set up, but it is there as an option, and it would give Revenankh a clear role beyond what it has now, albeit a somewhat niche one.
 
Alright, so I have a weird question. If we add a new competitive ability, should we replace Air Lock with it and have two abilities, or add the extra ability on top for three abilities?

I ask this because Air Lock has always been in a weird position on Revenahnk, in that it is neither a competitive ability nor a flavor ability. I appreciate that Air Lock was an interesting experiment to see whether it and Moonlight could be competitive, to which the answer was a resounding no. However, leaving Air Lock on Revenahnk doesn't really make sense. The general rule behind abilities in CAP is that the competitive abilities don't have to make complete flavor sense if they add something competitive to the CAP, but Air Lock doesn't do that. We also assign flavor abilities at the end of the process that aren't competitive at all, but add expected flavor to the CAP, which Air Lock doesn't do either.
 

Drapionswing

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I've been looking over a bunch of abilities and none really coherently fix a good amount of Revenankh's problems. However some abilities combined with the potential of Z-Trick-Or-Treat revenankh could change this. First of all for those of you who may not know, Trick-Or-Treat(ToT)'s Z effect is a +1 boost to all stats.

Offensive Ability:

Moxie allows us to keep boosting after killing a pokemon which keeps our boosting methods more fast paced than bulking up, and allows us to not have to use another move slot to keep boosting also. As well as this, regular ToT gives us opportunities to beat bulky defensive pokemon as it changes their typing to +Ghost allowing us to hit them super effectively.

Defensive Ability:

Prankster allows Revenankh to taunt tomohawk before it can haze away it's boosts and then go on to 1v1 it as if tomohawk switches in on the zToT it becomes a ghost type and takes super effective damage from insert physical ghost stab here. Not only this but it gives revenankh priority recovery allowing it to keep healthy to take on faster threats.

Filter allows you to beat offensive psychics 1v1 after a boost a lot easier as they have to get some chip damage on you prior to trying to revenge you. Multiscale also offers a similar effect to this but only when you're at maximum health, offering you a more general easy time to set up and a way to keep beating things like lele.
 
I've been completely torn on Revenankh's ability for quite a while. None of the suggestions have resonated all that well with me yet, so I've been hesitant to make posts supporting them. Anyway, I was just scrolling through the list of all Pokemon abilities on Bulbapedia, and I came across one that I think could work quite well for Revenankh's update: Triage.

Triage gives priority to all healing moves. In Revenankh's current movepool, there are four moves affected by Triage: Dream Eater, Moonlight, Rest, and Drain Punch. So Triage is a primarily defensive ability with a useful offensive application in Drain Punch. Most of us seem to be in agreement that one of Revenankh's main problems in the current metagame is its Speed, and Triage addresses that rather smoothly.

Priority Moonlight (and to a lesser extent, Rest), gives Revenankh a much needed boost in staying power to its defensive utility sets and its Bulk Up set by allowing it to heal in situations where it simply can't at the moment. As it stands in the current metagame, a low health Revenankh is as good as dead in most battles (other than maybe getting a chance to fire off a Shadow Sneak) due to its low Speed. Anyone who's used Tomohawk can tell you that this is not the case when using Tomohawk, as even a very low health Tomohawk can still prove useful in the battle and can save itself with priority Roost.

Priority Drain Punch is arguably an even bigger draw to Triage. Revenankh currently has access to Mach Punch, which is quite underwhelming to say the least. On the other hand, a priority Drain Punch gives Revenankh some actual cleaning potential with its Bulk Up set. It's still easily revenge killed by Tapu Lele, and has a lot of trouble dealing with Haze Tomohawk, but it's able to force out foes earlier on in the match thanks to having an actually powerful priority move. What's more, Triage doesn't just provide a +1 priority boost, it provides a +3 priority boost. This means it can avoid being picked off by things like Bullet Punch from Mega Scizor and Mega Metagross in an end-game scenario and smack them first with Drain Punch.

Did I mention it may even give Choice Band a reason to be used?

Basically, Triage is neat because:
  1. It provides Revenankh with a priority healing move, which gives a bump in viability to both utility and Bulk Up sets by increasing its survivability.
  2. It provides Revenankh with a powerful priority move in Drain Punch, which let Bulk Up and cbrevan sets pose more of a threat.
  3. Most importantly, Triage provides an answer to Revenankh's Speed problem without being overwhelming.
Revenankh poses more of an defensive and offensive threat with Triage, but a lot of its traditional answers are still very much capable of checking and countering it. Revenankh is just more capable of taking advantage of its utility options and/or getting off damage in a battle with priority Moonlight and Drain Punch, which may just be the kind of ability we're looking for. Interested to hear more thoughts on this.
 

Bughouse

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I like triage because everything that beats Revenankh still beats it, more or less. Maybe toxic stalling let's it beat a few things it shouldn't but not too much.

But it enables Revenankh to more soundly switch in on the things it does beat, even when somewhat weakened.

That's a good fit for Revenankh's problems, since nothing is going to help it beat Tapu Lele or Tomohawk etc. but beating what it should in as many circumstances as possible could salvage it.
 
As I've mentioned on Showdown yesterday, I support Triage because it can stil be beaten by its proper counters like Tapu Lele and Tomohawk. However, Revenankh can beat things it was supposed to, and he can act more like the bulky fighter the Project wanted him to be. Also, Triage has poor distribution in the official franchise; Comfey can't even use it that well in Singles.
 

snake

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I can get behind Triage (though I still prefer Poison Heal). Triage circumvents Revenankh's Speed and its present limited longevity, which improves its matchup with offensive teams; whereas Poison Heal gives it more longevity and an important status immunity (which is key for taking on defensive mons), and it also has the cool interaction with Substitute, Focus Punch, and the potential Phantom Force. Both of these abilities are both offensive and defensive in their own ways, and I think these abilities interact the best with Revenankh's stats and movepool.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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I'm really interested by Triage as an option as well, as it does offer that nice Speed boost to Drain Punch and its other healing moves. This can also reflect some different choices about its moveset in the future, and if it wants to get any moves like Drain Punch. I doubt it will ever get really broken as well, which is a serious concern about Poison Heal.
 
This is your 48-hour warning

So wrap up your final thoughts on both Defensive vs Offensive Revenankh because that's what we're gonna be polling!

Also, I've seen a good number of different Defensive ability ideas so that's really nice to see, Filter, Triage and PHeal seem to be the most popular defensive ideas, so it looks like it's going to be a 3v3 match up!
 
I'm really liking Triage for Revenankh because of how targeted it is. It interacts well with Revenankh's existing movepool and creates a nice solution to its Speed problems which, as sparktrain noted, is useful without being overwhelming. It's not a generic buffing ability or one which would drastically alter Revenankh's capabilities - it's just a new tool that Revenankh can make use of, some of the time, to remedy some of its problems, and is thus a nicely conservative update for this process.
 
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BP

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Triage on Revenankh seems like a wonderful idea. I can't really say anything that already hasn't been said about it. It is a wonderful ability that doesn't give Revenankh to much of a buff. I think it would be the Perfect addition and would probably give Revenankh another niche and more visibility when choosing Pokemon.
 

cbrevan

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Seeing how the defensive abilities won the poll, I thought I'd give my two cents on the three abilities KrazyCake mentioned in his post. I'll also explain why Triage is the best option among those three options as well as the glaring flaws the other two abilities have.

Starting off with Filter, the first thing that popped out to me was the complete lack of calcs showing what matchups it has a noticeable effect on. The only matchups I've seen people talk about in this thread is between Revenankh and Psychic types, notably snake_rattler mentioned how Filter turns an OHKO from Mega Metagross into a 2HKO. For the purpose of clarity I'll provide what I believe are the necessary calcs to understand how much of an impact this ability has.
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Revenankh: 404-476 (105.2 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Filter Revenankh: 303-357 (78.9 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Aurumoth Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Revenankh: 269-318 (70 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Aurumoth Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Revenankh: 359-424 (93.4 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Twisted Spoon Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Revenankh in Psychic Terrain: 297-351 (77.3 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Twisted Spoon Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Revenankh in Psychic Terrain: 396-468 (103.1 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Revenankh: 235-279 (61.1 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-2 252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Revenankh: 118-141 (30.7 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Revenankh: 350-414 (91.1 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Revenankh: 262-310 (68.2 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Salamence Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Revenankh: 342-402 (89 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Salamence Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Revenankh: 456-536 (118.7 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Revenankh: 294-348 (76.5 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Revenankh: 392-464 (102 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Revenankh: 372-438 (96.8 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Revenankh: 279-328 (72.6 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

What these calcs tells us is that Filter acts as a nice boost to Revenankhs bulk that lets it live a number of OHKOs it wouldn't otherwise, given it has the relevant EVs to do so. Additionally, it's important to point out that, with the exception from Fleur Cannon from AV Magearna, Filter does not change how Revenankh is unable to tank multiple hits from any of these Pokemon. If Revenankh cannot beat them in a single turn, or if they aren't sufficiently weakened, Revenankh will lose all the same. However, Filter does allow Revenankh to get in at least one attack on these Pokemon in a 1v1, which could possibly mean a significantly damage Tapu Lele for the opponent, which in itself could be a game changing outcome. On a matchup level, some of these Pokemon will be able to beat Revenankh regardless. Salamence and Gyarados beat Revenankh if they have a single boost, as can Aurumoth if it runs Tail Glow. Tapu Lele can also overpower Revenankh if its not running the appropiate EVs to handle Psyshock and Psychic, and so can Hoopa-U. I also want to point out that Filter requires heavy EV investment in Revenankh's bulk to work, otherwise the damage reduction won't be enough to avoid OHKOs reliably. This means Revenankh will be unable to OHKO any of the above Pokemon because it won't have the damage output to do so, which means it will have to depend on the Pokemon being weakened to the point where an uninvested Revenankh can kill or use a status move such as Glare, Toxic, or Will-o-Wisp (if it gets it) to cripple the Pokemon. Likewise, the need to run defensive EVs means this ability is next to useless on Choice Band Revenankh, as the only hits it will allow Revenankh to tank without any defensive investment are from walls such as Clefable and Tomohawk, who fail to OHKO Revenankh regardless and would be susceptible to Trick Filter or no Filter. All in all, I believe Filter has simply too little impact on the matchups Revenankh needs it to affect to be of any significant use. In a best case scenario, Revenakh will be able to tank a single hit and cripple its check with a status move, which is not enough of a boon to change Revenakh's viability.

Moving on to Poison Heal, I think there's a lot of flaws people are ignoring with this ability. First off, Poison HeaL does not directly address any of Revenankhs current issues. Revenankh does not have an issue with status, nor does it have any issues with recovery, so Poison HeaL will simply buff what is already a strong point of Revenankh. What Revenankh struggles with is its slow speed combined with a typing that leaves it weak to many of the most common Pokemon in the metagame. Poison HeaL does not solve any of these problems directly, but instead it ignores them completely by creating an entirely new way to play Revenankh. Elaborating on this, Poison HeaL's ability to make Substitute spammable is a problem in itself. We've seen how Poison HeaL has enabled Poison HeaL users in the past to hide behind a Sub and spam Toxic or Focus Punches with relative safety. Consider that this worked on two Pokemon with very exploitable 4x weaknesses to help prevent that initial sub from going up. Now consider how we're talking about giving a Pokemon with no such 4x weakness and above average bulk the ability to Toxic Stall the majority of it's checks. Not only are we opening ourselves up to disaster with this ability, we're spitting in the face of our Conservation principles by pursuing an entirely new way of playing Revenankh. Revenankh isn't know for sitting behind a Sub and Toxic stalling, so why should it be now? In short, Poison HeaL is a horrible option for us to pursue because it completely redefines how Revenankh plays by supporting the combination of Substitute and Toxic to a greater degree than necessary. These updates aren't meant to reinvent how our CAPs play, and given that is exactly what Poison HeaL will do to Revenankh, I'm against it as the new ability.

Now, I'd like to get on with what I believe is the best option anyone has brought up in this thread so far, Triage. I won't go into great detail what Triage does well as sparktrain does it so aptly in this post, so I'll just reiterate the positives Triage has over both Filter and Poison HeaL. First off, unlike Poison Heal, Triage will noticeably increase the performance of Revenankh's already established sets in Bulk Up and Choice Band. The ability to heal off damage directly after a boost is a massive boon that will allow Revenankh to be much more liberal in its boosting, which in effect will make setup easier. Additionally, Drain Punch becomes a powerful move for Revenankh to spam after a couple Bulk Ups under its belt, as it will simultaneously heal off damage and negate the slow speed Revenankh has. It does, however, leave Revenankh susceptible to burns, but I'd argue thats more than a fair trade off for the benefits Triage provides. Furthermore, giving Revenankh access to powerful priority won't conflict with its established identity because Bulk Up sets and Choice Band sets have both made use of Shadow Sneak to work around it's slow speed. Drain Punch is significantly stronger than Shadow Sneak, but a well boosted Shadow Sneak had the ability to clean in past metagames. Also, priority Drain Punch gives the Choice Band set an actual niche outside of Tricking a Choice Band onto Tomohawk. In this way Triage is unique because it is the only ability of the three that has any noticable impact on CB Revenankh. Lastly, Triage does not threaten to be overpowered as Poison HeaL does, nor does it show signs of being downright useless as Filter does. The boons Triage grants are specific and controlled, and it actively addresses on of the problems plaguing Revenankh. It's unobtrusive, impactful, and contributes to Revenankh's currently defined identity.

To sum up this post, both Filter and Poison HeaL are poor choices for Revenankh's ability whilst Triage is the best option for it. Filter has the potential to have a minimal effect on how Revenankh performs, while Poison HeaL has the ability to completely redefine how Revenank works. Unlike these two options, Triage provides an answer to Revenankh's speed issue, is almost assured to have a considerable impact on Revenankh's performance, and helps strengthen the sets that have helped define Revenankh in past generations. I can't think of a more suitable ability for us to give Revenankh, which is why I'm throwing my support behind it.
 

jas61292

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While I really liked the idea of Triage when it was first suggested, as I have thought about it more, I think it would actually be a really poor choice for us to make. If our goal is to recapture its old glory (Bulk Up abuser), Triage really is not going to help at all. On the other hand, if we want to improve its current best sets (Glare tank), Triage does help somewhat, but not really in a way that something like Poison Heal doesn't do better. Instead, what it does do is push us towards being an immediate offensive Pokemon, which would very ironically be against the chosen result in our recent poll.

First off, with Triage, Drain Punch becomes a priority move. But this is not just any priority move. This would be what I believe is the strongest reliable (read: not Sucker Punch) priority move in the tier (well... other than Talonflame's Brave Bird, but that is garbage this gen). For reference, it is about 6-7% stronger than equivalently EV trained and itemed Scizor's Bullet Punch. And, like all pokemon with super powerful reliable priority, this will be the thing that defines Revenankh. Not Bulk Up. Not anything else. It would be priority Drain Punch. And, while yes, Fighting is not necessarily the greatest type for a priority move in this meta, its still a very good offensive type, especially when its secondary STAB hit Ghosts and psychic types, including the priority immune Tapu Lele, super hard. And lets not forget all the other things it has going for it. Rev has much better bulk than most strong priority abusers. Its priority move would be at +3, meaning it can out-prioritize all other priority moves, despite its low speed. And, in addition to being the strongest priority move, it will also heal Rev 50% of the damage done every time. Again, this is incredibly powerful and will absolutely define Rev.

But what's more, I do not think this ability actually helps out the sets we should be looking to help, especially Bulk Up Rev. The issue BU Rev has is setting up. Too many things can force it out too easily, because they can wear it down too fast. Triage is not helping with this. Drain Punch from a bulky Rev set is not going to be doing enough to most of these things to make a difference until after it is already well set up. Moonlight, on the other hand, is not going to be a great option, because, frankly, Rev cannot afford to only have 2 offensive moves in this meta. Its STABs have good coverage, but, even if we expand its ghost options a bit, they will never be especially strong, and so without a coverage move to take care of some of the things that could otherwise check it, such as Landorus Therian, it will not be very successful. However, it cannot afford to run a coverage move like Ice Punch instead of a STAB, as Drain Punch + Ice Punch leaves it vulnerable to very weak against Ghosts, Psychics, Bugs and more. In other words, while Triage could certainly make a BU set stronger once it is set up, it is doing nothing to help it do so, which is the real issue we need to address.

Instead, what Triage supports best are straight up attacking sets like, yes, Choice Band. But let me just take a moment to say that, no, CB Rev is not a currently decent set, nor has it ever been a defining set of Revenankh. It is a meme, and no more, and that is not something we should be looking to improve.

Now, as for what I do think is a good ability, Poison Heal is still my personal favorite. Its not perfect, as I feel it is a bit stronger than we necessarily need. However I really like how it actually helps with Rev's ability to set up, by providing it with status immunity and greater passive healing, without the need to use up any moveslot. This both helps it in setting up, and allows it to run BU along side three offensive moves far more easily. Furthermore, it does a much better job helping sets like a Glare tank, without providing any meaningful boost to straight offensive sets.
 
From a logical standpoint, I'm honestly neutral about the whole Triage Vs. Poison Heal argument. Triage allows it to deal with poor speed but is somewhat situational (as it can only use Moonlight, Rest and Drain Punch with it) and might lead to a rise in CB Rev, which is a bad idea. Poison Heal is great for Bulk Up sets and helps it set up better, but doesn't address the speed issue. If I had to pick one of the two, I would say Poison Heal, because it helps Rev set up. I honestly think that the speed isn't salvageable, and I don't think it was meant to be. Rev was made as a bulky bulk up user. We decided to focus more on its defensive capabilities and potential as a stallbreaker. If Rev can set up more easily, it will be able to be a mix of defense and offense, being a slow yet bulky offensive stallbreaker. With Pheal, it could run Bulk Up, STAB and coverage. Against stall like utility Chansey, it can Bulk Up twice, then perceed to likely OHKO Chansey with a Drain Punch. It would be able to take hits better, and that would let it set up easier, then retaliate with the right move. However, Pheal won't solve everything; Rev needs more powerful moves too, but I'll get to that when the time is right.

+2 252 Atk Revenankh Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 560-660 (87.2 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
 
This would be what I believe is the strongest reliable (read: not Sucker Punch) priority move in the tier (well... other than Talonflame's Brave Bird, but that is garbage this gen). For reference, it is about 6-7% stronger than equivalently EV trained and itemed Scizor's Bullet Punch. And, like all pokemon with super powerful reliable priority, this will be the thing that defines Revenankh.
I would not say the most reliable priority, because plenty of Ghost types could come in on Rev no problem while it is using Drain Punch. These Ghost type could easily survive a Shadow Sneak, and beat it through any number of things in return. Some good examples of such Ghost types would be Mega Sableye (can beat through Toxic stall) and Mimikyu (OHKO's after a Sword Dance). Additionally, severally other Pokemon can come in easily and beat it like Mega Venasaur, Toxapex, etc no problem. It might be defining, but Bulk Up would certainly be a useful addition to the set to beat some of these Pokemon that otherwise hard counter it. So the Bulk Up set would not fall by the wayside, which is what you seem to be suggesting (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

You also compared it to Scizor and Talonflame. Talonflame was much more dangerous last generation because it had reliable recovery, which Rev does have, but also a high speed outside of its priority. In a similar vain, Scizor is much more similar to Rev, vulnerability to burns and low speed with decent bulk, but still utilizes Swords Dance and have a far greater defensive typing. Also with both of these, no Pokemon have immunity to their priority. So for Rev to be a threat, would have to set up somewhat. Therefore, a set with Bulk Up would not be outclassed.

Some calcs to back up my Ghost type comments

4 Atk Revenankh Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mimikyu: 110-132 (43.8 - 52.5%) -- 13.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Revenankh: 328-385 (85.4 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Revenankh: 650-767 (169.2 - 199.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
I don't have a ton of time right now, but I keep seeing this argument being made in some form by the pro-Poison Heal group: "Triage encourages sets other than Bulk Up, that's bad!" While it's true that Triage does provide a buff to non-Bulk Up sets, people seem to being completely ignoring the fact that Poison Heal is a much, much worse offender of this. Sure, Poison Heal theoretically helps a Bulk Up set, but it also buffs a stallbreaking set without Bulk Up (a set that sees virtually no use in the current metagame) to a much larger degree. Keep in mind that Revenankh already has access to Taunt. We've seen this in test battles; Sub/Toxic/Taunt/filler (filler being an attacking move) becomes one of Revenankh's best sets. I had a custom match with reachzero a while back, and despite him carrying Arghonaut and me carrying Tapu Fini (thus Misty Terrain being up most of the battle), reach's Revenankh was still able able to activate Toxic Orb and put in a ton of work (mind you, I was running offense). Unfortunately I don't have the replay on me at the moment; I'll edit it in if I get a chance.

Point is, the argument of "X ability encourages non-Bulk Up sets" is more of an argument against Poison Heal than it is against Triage. Poison Heal does theoretically buff Bulk Up, but it has the serious risk of pushing stallbreaker Rev to the forefront. On the other hand Triage provides Bulk Up Revenankh with a much more feasible shot at sweeping by improving its longevity with priority recovery, directly addressing its Speed issue. Any buff to other sets such as Choice Band is mere icing on the cake at best; I seriously doubt Triage would suddenly make Choice Band its best set.
 

G-Luke

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Arguements are flying to and fro from both parties. While Poison Heal is endgame for me, Triage has alot of strong promising factors. So I decoded to break down everything Revenankh needs to succeed as a Bulk Up user in Gen 7. Imagine Rev without an ability, but keep its typing, stats, and current movepool. Here is what flaws it has.

Poor Speed
Glaring weakness to all Status
Easy to wear down
Very Passive
Finds hard times to set up



Now Triage and Poison Heal address dome of these issues in various ways, more some than others, but both of them threaten to create other viable sets. While both abilities can create viable sets not featuring Bulk Up, with a bit of a careful approach to movepool selection, we can make sure they don't overshadow it. Now on to the issues.

Speed - Rev has terribad speed for an offensive threat, and its npt easy to circumvirt this. Poison Heal has no remedies on its speed factor, but Triage grants it powerful, +3 priority, allowing it to bypass its speed tier, making a potential revengekill null and void.

Glaring weakness to all Status - This is a problem all Bulk Up users must be able to address if they are to be successful in OU, including Rev. This is a flaw of Triage: you can't stop something from statusing you and sending you to oblivion, especially when you dont have neither the power, or to a lesser extent, the speed to threaten with otherwise. When Rev was first subbed, it was able to address it status idsue with Shed Skin + Rest. Now that it has aged and we are now seeking a replacement, we must consider this. What's to stop a Rotom from burning you, turning you into fodder. A stallmon from from dropping a Toxic, vastly limiting its staying potential. While not as problomatic, paralysis and sleep are bad news for it too. Poison Heal has no such problems. In fact, as we all know, it benefits from Toxic. In other words, if one chooses Triage, expect Rev to play very differently in its Bulk Up game, as one of its selling points in the past was not much status issues.

Easy to wear down - Rev is actually very easy to wear down, with unreliable recovery (Moonlight and Rest isn't that reliable), weather damage, hazards and suspectibility to status. Both abilities address this in different ways, to various degrees of success. PH, as we have all seen in practice, greatly reduces the ability to wear it down. Status immunity and 12.5 reqqcovery every turn practically guarentees staying on the field, and is a great asset of a Bulk Up user. Triage does this in a different way. Triage basically means with smart play, you'll always be above 50% HP. While it doesn't help against status (unless you all start suggesting Aromatherapy, which causes more problems than it solves) that still a great thing. .

Very Passive - Can't solve tgis with the abilities we got. Wait til movepool subs roll in.

Finds it hard to set up - Thanks to the power creep, Rev can't set up against much on offense. Also it doesnt fare to well against stall either. Triage applies pressure on offensive teams with the threat of a strong priority attack. Poison Heal + Sub makes Stall a non issue for BU sets.

I can't think of other issues, but these are the main things to think about when picking an ability for Rev. I still support PH as Triage only slightly helps the Offensive matchup and barely does anything against Stall or balance. PH allows it to curb stomp bulky builds while it still puts some pressure on offense.

Poison Heal for my vote.
 
The Revenankh Offence vs Defence poll has now ended, and apparently, the best offence is a good defence because defensive Revenankh won by a landslide!

I've seen a lot of differing views on the ability Poison Heal some people see it as Revenankhs future while others see it as an overpowered mess, both sides have some very decent points and this is the main reason why we haven't gone to a poll yet. Poison Heal could be seen as "over buffing Revenankh" and after playing a few custom games, I can see exactly what they mean. I've mentioned SubHeal before I've stayed very iffy on this as an ability for Revenankh because in my eyes Poison Heal is a huge risk, a risk that I'm not very willing to take, once Revenankh has a substitute it can win against almost all the Pokemon that it comes up against, even Haze Tomohawk is threatened by SubHeal Rev because all you have to do is use toxic and watch as Tomo tries its best to beat you down. This disscussion will decide on whether I slate PHeal or not!

We have had a bunch of other fun abilities that will make it to the poll, these abilities are Triage, Filter. I was lying when I said we had a "bunch" as we only have two so far; abilities like Rough Skin have been mentioned but I haven't seen much support for it. Mummy has also been suggested but this ability fits better as a flavour ability so I won't be slating this. What I'd like to see are a few more different abilities before we start the poll.

Is Poison Heal overpowered?
Are there any last minute abilities that Revenankh should have?

This discussion will be open for 24 hours so get cracking!
 
The Revenankh Offence vs Defence poll has now ended, and apparently, the best offence is a good defence because defensive Revenankh won by a landslide!

I've seen a lot of differing views on the ability Poison Heal some people see it as Revenankhs future while others see it as an overpowered mess, both sides have some very decent points and this is the main reason why we haven't gone to a poll yet. Poison Heal could be seen as "over buffing Revenankh" and after playing a few custom games, I can see exactly what they mean. I've mentioned SubHeal before I've stayed very iffy on this as an ability for Revenankh because in my eyes Poison Heal is a huge risk, a risk that I'm not very willing to take, once Revenankh has a substitute it can win against almost all the Pokemon that it comes up against, even Haze Tomohawk is threatened by SubHeal Rev because all you have to do is use toxic and watch as Tomo tries its best to beat you down. This disscussion will decide on whether I slate PHeal or not!

We have had a bunch of other fun abilities that will make it to the poll, these abilities are Triage, Filter. I was lying when I said we had a "bunch" as we only have two so far; abilities like Rough Skin have been mentioned but I haven't seen much support for it. Mummy has also been suggested but this ability fits better as a flavour ability so I won't be slating this. What I'd like to see are a few more different abilities before we start the poll.

Is Poison Heal overpowered?
Are there any last minute abilities that Revenankh should have?


This discussion will be open for 24 hours so get cracking!
Is Poison Heal overpowered?
Absolutely. I did some custom games with reachzero , and SubHeal was the worst. It was absolutely impossible to kill and he 6-0ed my team with it. Just no. Too broken. SubHeal is extremely OP, as only Lele can really stop it, and even then Shadow Punch has a chance to OHKO.
 

reachzero

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In fairness, you had no Flying types at all and Tapu Lele was your only Fairy, and you did yourself no favors letting it get to +3/+3 against a Pokemon that literally couldn't do anything to it.

Poison Heal Revenankh would have some clear limiting factors, the most obvious of which is that Misty Terrain keeps Toxic Orb from activating, and Misty Surge Arghonaut will make Misty Terrain far more common. Which Pokemon beat Revenankh directly depends on the set, but Toxic versions lose to Skarmory, Mega Scizor, Toxapex and Clefable on defensive teams, while offensive teams are generally able to keep Revenankh from setting up. It's against balance that Poison Heal shines, when it runs into a momentum sink. In the game Reviloja753 is referencing, she tried to Spike on it with Arghonaut, and it cost her. Rev still isn't particularly fast, but Poison Heal at least gives it a way to deal with the swarms of Fairies and Flying types that would continue to be an issue for Triage.

Edit: Fixed. I usually try to do the he or she thing, but it's hard to assume girls on the internet, particularly Smogon.
 
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In fairness, you had no Flying types at all and Tapu Lele was your only Fairy, and you did yourself no favors letting it get to +3/+3 against a Pokemon that literally couldn't do anything to it.

Poison Heal Revenankh would have some clear limiting factors, the most obvious of which is that Misty Terrain keeps Toxic Orb from activating, and Misty Surge Arghonaut will make Misty Terrain far more common. Which Pokemon beat Revenankh directly depends on the set, but Toxic versions lose to Skarmory, Mega Scizor, Toxapex and Clefable on defensive teams, while offensive teams are generally able to keep Revenankh from setting up. It's against balance that Poison Heal shines, when it runs into a momentum sink. In the game Reviloja753 is referencing, he tried to Spike on it with Arghonaut, and it cost him. Rev still isn't particularly fast, but Poison Heal at least gives it a way to deal with the swarms of Fairies and Flying types that would continue to be an issue for Triage.
Okay, maybe I overestimated the power of SubHeal. I'll give you that much. However, I still believe Triage would be a better choice, as it gives options for Rev, rather than being rather easy to predict with Sub, Bulk Up, an attack and filler. Also, SubHeal is extremely tough to deal with and could potentially be too centralizing for teambuilding. Triage has a variety of sets, but it still has counters that spread across the board; Fairy and Flying types. Also, Pheal seems a little bit out there and might violate the idea of conservative updates. As far as I know, Reve never ran SubMoonlight. In fact, Substitute was never a good move for it anyways. So it might stray too far off.

Quick Tangent: Also, I'm a girl. Not a guy.
 

Quanyails

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Hey, Reviloja753, I mentioned this on Discord, but if you could grab replays of Poison Heal Revenankh in action, it'd help your point. Also, it might also help to test Triage Revenankh with the same team and see how it compares and contrasts. How do you know Triage isn't more "broken"? It doesn't convince me that you claim one thing is broken without putting alternative options under the same test.

That being said, I think it'd be cool for people to test out Poison Heal/Triage/another ability in a custom game to get evidence for how well the ability works on Revenankh. 'u'
 
Hey, Reviloja753, I mentioned this on Discord, but if you could grab replays of Poison Heal Revenankh in action, it'd help your point. Also, it might also help to test Triage Revenankh with the same team and see how it compares and contrasts. How do you know Triage isn't more "broken"? It doesn't convince me that you claim one thing is broken without putting alternative options under the same test.

That being said, I think it'd be cool for people to test out Poison Heal/Triage/another ability in a custom game to get evidence for how well the ability works on Revenankh. 'u'
I forgot to save the replays, but when I get on later, I'll test them out. When I battled against Reach, he brought SubPheal Rev, and my only fairy was Lele. However, this time I'm going to bring some fairies that aren't hurt by Ghost as well as a better Flying type (Cause he also brought Misty Surge Ice Punch Argho).
 
Alright, so while Reach didn't come on, I battled Garbagery , with him being the one with Reve. I won both games. However, I had a harder time winning with Triage than with Pheal, as shown by the replays. Thusly, I have come to the conclusion (as of right now) that Poison Heal wouldn't be enough. I am still in support of Triage.
 
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