CAP Updates: Priority Discussion

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
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Welcome to the first thread of our new CAP Updates Process. It's been a long time since we've had updates for various reasons, and we're still working through this new process as we work through it.

The ultimate goal of this thread is to give us direction before conducting a poll to determine which aspects, if any, of a CAP creation need updates.
CAP Updates: Priority Discussion

To start, we would like to congratulate the Leadership Team for this set of updates:

GLs:
jas61292 (Generation 5)
sparktrain (Generation 6)
Deck Knight (Generation 4)

ULs:
snake_rattler
reachzero
cbrevan
DarkSlay
boxofkangaroos
KrazyCake

In this thread we will discuss the scope of the updates for each CAP. This is NOT a thread for discussing which specific CAPs need which specific changes, but rather in order to adhere to CAP Update Principles, do these CAPs need to consider Ability Updates, Ability + Competitive Updates, or Flavor Updates. Additionally we will consider whether CAPs should be updated for concept, updated for viability, or updated for flavor.

A reminder of our Update Principles:

Principles

1. Justification: GameFreak updates its "face of the franchise" (competitively) Pokemon at regular intervals in competitively significant ways. CAP should do the same with our "face of the franchise," our CAP Pokemon.
2. Definition: An Update is defined as an addition or removal to a Pokemon's Movepool, or a change in their Ability. Base Statistics Updates will not be considered. Abilities are to be replaced, not removed, consistent with in-game precedent.
3. Frequency: Movepool Updates should be conducted upon each new game release, Ability Updates should be considered upon each new generation's release.
4. Continuity: All Updates should adhere to a CAP's Concept and Established Identity (Metagame Role, "CAP-iness" of the CAP.)
5. Coherence: All Updates should have sound competitive reasoning and /or in-game precedent (ex. From BW2 Tutors Electric and most Bug types getting ElectroWeb).
6. Appearance: All Updates should consider the overall optics of that revision and how it will impact perception of the CAP Community.
7. Acclimation: All Updates should acclimate the CAP to baseline competitive play in that release's OU (or equivalent) environment.
8. Conservation: All Updates should be as conservative as possible in acclimating the CAPs to the new release's environment.

Types of Updates:
Non-Competitive Updates:
  1. Update in terms of flavor: This is based purely on non-competitive reasoning. The desired outcome is for the CAP Pokémon to appear more realistic, such as with the addition of flavour tutor moves, hidden ability or moves unreleased at the time of the CAP's making.
Competitive Updates:
  1. Update in terms of concept: This is a continuation of the CAP's original concept and it is an effort to make the CAP fulfill its concept in the current metagame, despite the role it currently has. It is up for debate what kinds of changes (eg addition/removal of moves and/or abilities) this would entail. Consistent with the main CAP process, flavor is not taken into account when making these changes.
  2. Update in terms of viability: This type of update aims to 'buff' or 'nerf' a CAP Pokémon based on how it currently functions in the metagame. This type of update tries to preserve the 'essence' of the Pokémon - namely it still has the same role both before and after the changes, but the result is that it performs that role either better or worse. Again, flavor is not taken into account when making these changes.
Because there are 22 CAPs and we want to avoid a major mess, we will be presenting questions to the CAP Community in succession to determine importance. Our first set of questions will help focus on which CAPs have the highest priority.

- - - - -

Generation 4 CAPs do not presently have a Hidden Ability, and many of them only have one ability that is truly competitive.

Consistent with the idea CAPs should not have more than two competitive abilities, should Generation 4 Updates consider adding Competitive Hidden Abilities? For Generation 4 CAPs that do have 2 Competitive Abilities, should they have Hidden Abilities that constitute a Flavor Update?

Which 3 CAPs do you consider overly viable in their role, such that they have too much metagame versatility / relevance and it actively detracts from their concept? Would an Ability Update focused on viability address these imbalances?


Which 3 CAPs do you believe most fit their concept (metagame role), such that any update either brings them into fullness or makes them look like a Generation 7 Based version of that concept?

-

Which 3 CAPs do you believe least fit their concept (metagame role), such that their concept needs active reconsideration (or in some cases establishment)? This is not intended to judge the individual merit of prior concepts, but rather "does this Pokemon perform a role that matches its intent, and if not why not and where should it go consistent with Update Principles?"
 
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Since the first eleven CAPs do not have Hidden Abilities, we could easily give them HAs to work with, either flavorfully or competitively. A fellow user in Showdown's CAP chatroom mentioned the idea of Drought Pyroak a while back, since its current Abilities don't really work with him; Rock Head encourages crappy physical sets despite its low Attack, while Battle Armor leaves something to be desired. I'm just using that Ability as an example, since it is not an absolute decision. Malaconda doesn't have a Hidden Ability despite having two Standard Abilities, strangely enough.

The other thing that bothered me was the Necturna Clause in Gens 5 and 6. Egg Moves can be passed down by the mother as of XY, ORAS, and onward. This clause seems to affect Arghonaut as well, who cannot even have Bulk Up and Recover on the same set. He only has one Ability as well, while the other Gen 4 CAPs have two. The only Boober-Rank CAPmon in the Project's history is Voodoom, and since stat spread changes are not being considered, it can only be saved by a potential Hidden Ability or moves introduced in Gens 5, 6, and 7. He was intended to work well with another Pokémon to form a core, but cores haven't worked well, as seen with Volkraken and Plasmanta.

The only truly broken CAP I can think of is Aurumoth; its BST is the highest of any base form CAP, and its access to Illusion makes it more difficult to play against. Maybe replace Illusion with something that's actually risky? Even though it's not as unhealthy as it was in BW, Krilowatt has access to Magic Guard, which allows it to deal ridiculous damage with a recoil-free Life Orb despite its seemingly low offensive base stats and high HP. An Ability Update would greatly help nerf these two without overkilling either of them.

In short, the only CAPs that would need a nerf are Aurumoth, Krilowatt, and possibly Tomohawk, while Malaconda and Voodoom may need a revision or buff in these updates. I can't think of third CAP that's considered useless, though. Any thoughts?

Overall, they should be updated with a bit of focus on flavor, concept, and viability each.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
Consistent with the idea CAPs should not have more than two competitive abilities, should Generation 4 Updates consider adding Competitive Hidden Abilities? For Generation 4 CAPs that do have 2 Competitive Abilities, should they have Hidden Abilities that constitute a Flavor Update?

Some gen 4 like capmons need a better ability: Pyroak has not enough attack to benefit of Rock Head, Revenankh does not benefit of Air Lock and Arghonaut will appreciate a second ability

Which 3 CAPs do you consider poorly viable in their role, such that they have too little metagame versatility / relevance and it actively detracts from their concept? Would an Ability Update focused on viability address these imbalances?

With its 4x weakness at the fairies, for Voodoom it's very hard to find a place in the meta, especially with Tomohawk and Tapu Lele in (pratically) every team.
Sludge Bomb/Wave and Gunk Shot could be a nice option to deal with them.

Malaconda description says: "Versatile special wall that shines brightest in the sun".
Sun teams don't exist since the weather rebalancement, so this sneak needs something that will help him to shine.

Since the gen 6, Revenankh is neutral to the Dark moves, so it's susceptible to Knock Off, and weak to the Fairy type.
Iron Head/Gunk Shot could be a nice addition.
 
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reachzero

the pastor of disaster
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Consistent with the idea CAPs should not have more than two competitive abilities, should Generation 4 Updates consider adding Competitive Hidden Abilities? For Generation 4 CAPs that do have 2 Competitive Abilities, should they have Hidden Abilities that constitute a Flavor Update?

There are clearly some Generation 4 CAPs that could use Competitive Hidden Abilities to keep pace with the times.

Revenankh has struggled to hold on to any competitive relevance, and its one competitive ability (Shed Skin) works too slowly for a metagame in which Tapu Lele could come in to blow up Revenankh at any time.

Arghonaut's single ability gives it a predictability that is almost unmatched in CAP, while its role as defender against set-up sweepers has been usurped nearly entirely by Tomohawk and Clefable. It absolutely requires a second ability for the sake of regaining a niche.

Kitsunoh is not quite so clear, but it has fallen into disuse largely because it is no longer quite bulky enough or strong enough to hold up to the level of power creep that Generation 7 has brought us to. Kitsunoh's chassis is still good, but Frisk provides a small enough benefit that a third ability could be justified, and Kitsunoh could use a small to moderate boost in either damage or tankiness. As far as I can see, the other Generation 4 CAPs do not need or cannot justify a third competitive ability.

Flavor Hidden Abilities are fun and could probably be run concurrently with a competitive stage so as not to waste time, so why not do them?

Which 3 CAPs do you consider overly viable in their role, such that they have too much metagame versatility / relevance and it actively detracts from their concept?Would an Ability Update focused on viability address these imbalances?

None of these answers should come as a surprise to anyone.

I believe Aurumoth is too powerful in this metagame, and one of its *three* competitive abilities (Illusion) is an enormous reason why. Aurumoth can turn almost any game on its head on any turn, so it is ironically one of the safest and least risky picks to include on an any given team. Changing Illusion would be enormously useful in addressing this, since having to ask, "Is this Aurumoth?" every time a new Pokemon comes in is a major factor that sets Aurumoth apart from other very powerful threats like Mega Metagross and Tapu Lele.

Tomohawk, while considerably weaker than in Generation 6 due to the the rise of Psychic and Fairy dominance and the advent of Z Fly, remains a truly dominant metagame influence in that it blanket checks a huge percentage of physical attackers and almost completely wipes out a large number of set-up sweepers using priority Haze. While eliminating Prankster would obviously balance this, that is likely overkill, so I don't think an Ability Update is in order here.

Krilowatt is a bit of a strange nomination since it rarely though of as overpowered, and certainly is not in the way that Aurumoth and Tomohawk are. That being said, Magic Guard is the strongest ability we have ever given a CAP, and for the specific, focused concept it was selected for, it was shockingly broad and generically good. Krilowatt should by its concept be one of the most customizable CAPs, but Magic Guard has actively worked against this by making one set--Life Orb Special Attacker--utterly dominant over every other possible Krilowatt set. Changing Magic Guard might make Krilowatt somewhat less viable, but it could very easily bring it closer to its concept.

Which 3 CAPs do you consider poorly viable in their role, such that they have too little metagame versatility / relevance and it actively detracts from their concept?Would an Ability Update focused on viability address these imbalances?


The least viable CAPs are also pretty clear.

Voodoom is almost a meme at this point because its ability to defeat Fairies is almost nil, 105 SpA feels low without high base power attacks to spam, and base 110 speed, which was fast in Generation 4, is slower than every common fast Pokemon (Stratagem, Tapu Koko, Syclant, Kerfluffle). Unfortunately, it is unlikely to be helped by adding another ability, since it already has two excellent, competitive abilities. Chances are that "fixing" Voodoom will have to be an issue for Move Updates.

Arghonaut and Revenankh need help for the reasons noted above.
 
Should Generation 4 Updates consider adding Competitive Hidden Abilities? For Generation 4 CAPs that do have 2 Competitive Abilities, should they have Hidden Abilities that constitute a Flavor Update?

So the mons that could most benefit from having a more competitive hidden Ability:

Revenahnk suffers from many things, and it's abilities are probably among the greatest. It's Shed Skin is situational, and Air Lock is actively bad.

As bad as Revenahnk has it, it's in a dream state as far as abilities are concerned compared to Pyroak. Every ability on this mon is bad. Rock Head supports a horrendously bad set, and Battle Armor doesn't do anything for mons that can't set up defensively. It says quite a bit that Shed Skin, the worst ability on a pokemon with bad abilities, would be a heavy improvement to Pyroak.

Fidgit is the final Pokemon that could probably use a nice Hidden ability. The issue is that Persistant doesn't actually do anything on a set that doesn't attempt to Trick Room or Tailwind, which means that hazard-setting Fidgits don't actually have any abilities, since Vital Spirit is awful.

Honestly, the other mons out of Gen 4 don't really need an ability buff. I've seen people point to Arghonaut and Kitsunoh as other mons that could be needing, but Arghonaut probably wouldn't use it's extra ability over Unaware, because Unaware is already insane. It's not seeing play because that's simply not how the meta works right now. It's the same reason OU isn't full of Quagsires. I would also argue that Frisk on Kitsunoh is arguably the only redeeming factor to it this Gen. Being able to check Landorus-T and the likes for Z-Crystals is actually pretty nice. In fact, this is the first time in a long time that Kitsunoh can actually function as a scout. Kitsunoh's main problems are that its Stats and movepool are bad. It's ability is fine.

As far as flavor Hidden Abilities goes, the only pokemon I really don't want it for is Cyclohm. Cyclohm's entire concept is its abilities. I would instead push to have Static changed to be its Hidden ability.

Which 3 CAPs do you consider overly viable in their role, such that they have too much metagame versatility / relevance and it actively detracts from their concept?

I don't think anybody's going to argue that Aurumoth isn't the single biggest offender in this category. There's nothing even remotely risky about Aurumoth now, nor has there ever been anything risky about Aurumoth. Its movepool is incredible, its abilities are incredible, its stats are incredible, and its typing is actually pretty good, given how bad most things are when combined with Bug. Even if it didn't have Illusion, it would be too good. Which makes it even more ridiculous it gets an ability as absurd as Illusion.

I honestly can't say anything about Tomohawk that hasn't been said already. There are few few mons that could be considered one of the best Defensive mons in their tier and one of the best Offensive mons in their tier. Even fewer can do both with the same set. But Tomohawk definitely fits the bill in CAP. Tomohawk is simultaneously easy to switch in and hard to switch into. Tomohawk fits into almost every team archetype and fits into almost every role in those archetypes. It's really just absurd.

So this one's going to sound odd as far as mons that are so good, they go against their concept, since this mon's wouldn't abandon its concept move if the sun died out, but bear with me a second. Cawmodore's Volt Absorb ability is actually so good that people have started pivoting with it, especially against Tapu Koko oriented teams. Unless Koko has Hidden Power Fire, Cawmodore can switch into any move Tapu Koko uses and pivot from Cawmodore into something else. And it doesn't actually need the health, since it kills Tapu Koko after only taking Rocks damage twice with Belly Drum Bullet Punch, and heals itself with Drain Punch. There are even Cawmodore's with Z-Belly Drum so they can take even more hits as they switch in and out. Cawmodore was concieved as a mon that should set up a Belly Drum and win, not as a mon that should be wandering in and out of combat every turn.

Which 3 CAPs do you consider poorly viable in their role, such that they have too little metagame versatility / relevance and it actively detracts from their concept?

So we'll get the obvious pokemon out of the way. Voodoom is a bad Pokemon, and has been since Gen 5, aka almost its entire existence. Voodoom was in a terrible state long before Fairies hit the scene, and the Fairy introduction was basically the final nail it the Voodoom coffin. Even if you added Sludge Wave or Flash Cannon to it movepool, it still wouldn't change the fact that its Speed tier isn't all that special anymore, it has the defensive capabilities of a tube of toothpaste, its Special Attack stat is mediocre by today's standards, most of the format can hit it super effectively, and Pheremosa fills the same niche this does, but nine times better. Simply put, I'd love to have this mon be viable, but outside of giving it the DD Pyroak treatment, I don't think that's even remotely possible.

Moving on to a mon with much more promise, Kitsunoh is actually fairly unique, and could actually heavily impact the CAP metagame for the better. Its typing is nice, its ability it surprisingly useful, and it can fill a bunch of interesting roles on a team. I think a movepool update could honestly do this mon some good, especially since scouting is a role it can actually fulfill now, as opposed to Gen 6.

Malaconda is a mon in desperate need of a face-lift. It says quite a bit that Charizard-Y's usage is at an all-time high and Malaconda can't capitalize on it at all. One would think that Sun being not completely terrible for once would be a huge step in Malaconda's favor, but its movepool and stats leave it floundering.
 
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snake

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CAP Co-Leader
Consistent with the idea CAPs should not have more than two competitive abilities, should Generation 4 Updates consider adding Competitive Hidden Abilities? For Generation 4 CAPs that do have 2 Competitive Abilities, should they have Hidden Abilities that constitute a Flavor Update?

To be consistent with present-day CAPs, I think that Generation 4 CAPs should have 2 competitive abilities + 1 hidden ability, with the secondary ability being inferior or in rare cases equal to the primary. The original primary abilities should probably be the new primary ability (ex. Unaware on Arghonaut, Shed Skin on Revenankh).

Which 3 CAPs do you consider overly viable in their role, such that they have too much metagame versatility / relevance and it actively detracts from their concept? Would an Ability Update focused on viability address these imbalances?

My opinion may be contrary to others, but I think Tomohawk's Prankster Haze fits its concept pretty well. At the same time, it constraining the metagame very heavily, so I'm kind of on the fence on the issue. Regardless, I don't think removing Prankster would be the correct way to go about the update since priority healing, Yawn, etc. is ok.

With the rise of faster Choice Scarfers (100+), sometimes getting one boost off with Aurumoth isn't enough to protect it from being revenge killed. However, Illusion allows it to get 2 boosts off really fast. Z Crystals (most notably Psychium Z and Firium Z) allow it to preserve its Illusion longer since Life Orb damage can give it away later on in the match. Also, Weak Armor gives 2 Speed boosts now, so there's more incentive to run the "riskier" ability. Overall, I think an ability update would help to fix this issue, though its coverage needs a look too.

Still thinking about Cawm / Kril points listed in other posts.

Which 3 CAPs do you consider poorly viable in their role, such that they have too little metagame versatility / relevance and it actively detracts from their concept? Would an Ability Update focused on viability address these imbalances?

Naviathan is really dragging in this meta. It'd be a really great stallbreaker if not for Duggy, which OU will probably ban soon, so it CM set is fine. Taunt / Scald / CM / Slack Off is really nice even with Mollux, Plasmanta, and other Water-type checks in the metagame. However, it's Dragon Dance set is really lacking, and it's problem isn't speed. It's power. It's just terrible outclassed by Gyarados, who boasts more attack and better abilities / typing to set up, and Salamence, who has more Attack and a little extra Speed to tie with base 100s. Not to mention that both of these Pokemon can run Moxie to snowball if they want (though I prefer Intimidate on Gyara). There's little reason to use DD Naviathan over either of these mons. I'm not saying that DD Navi needs to be better than Gyarados and Salamence, but if Naviathan had more power, we might see it more often. An ability over Water Veil could help since burns are much less common now; though we could address Naviathan's power with better STAB moves and coverage moves as well.

Kitsunoh is also really dragging too. The main issue is its stats: it's not bulky enough, it doesn't hit hard enough, and while its speed tier is pretty sweet, it's not doing it too many favors. Even in last gen, it's been given a support role of Defog / WoW / Shadow Strike / U-turn, which is decent at best. An ability update would certainly help because Limber doesn't do Kitsunoh too many favors, and I'm not sure what you'd do with its movepool since it already has a lot to choose from and the most annoying move ever, Shadow Strike.

Voodoom is soooooo lacking. That being said, Dark / Psychic / Fighting coverage isn't too shabby, and it hits harder than I expect most times. The Electric-type immunity can be pretty annoying too. There are a couple of abilities that I can think of that are similar to the ones that it has now that would help it out some, but movepool is definitely going to be where it gets a major buff.


I just want to mention that while we do want to give our CAPs good updates, we don't want each CAP to be A+ on the viability rankings. I think this will be a success if every mon has a decent niche in the metagame, even if it's super small. I'm sure this is how the majority of the people participating in the project feel, but I just want to be transparent in how I think.
 

DarkSlay

Guess who's back? Na na na! *breakdances*
is a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Consistent with the idea CAPs should not have more than two competitive abilities, should Generation 4 Updates consider adding Competitive Hidden Abilities? For Generation 4 CAPs that do have 2 Competitive Abilities, should they have Hidden Abilities that constitute a Flavor Update?

Absolutely, 100%. Nothing wrong with considering the addition of competitive abilities to older Pokemon if the concept calls for it or a new ability would help further its specific role in the metagame (if it's lacking). There's definitely precedent for in-game competitive HA's, and Gen IV has been some time ago, so new abilities have sprung up that could stimulate meaningful discussion.

I do believe, however, that we need to consider following the same format of Primary and Secondary Ability and analyze if a Pokemon could use a new "Primary" ability or a new "Secondary" ability. For example, consider the following two Pokemon who could use a new competitive ability.

Revenankh has Shed Skin (a decent ability, but inconsistent and would be classified as a Secondary Ability by our standards today) and Airlock (was once relevant with perma-weather, but is now niche and arguably flavor/non-competitive). Therefore, we may want to consider classifying the Hidden Ability as a Primary-like competitive ability for Rev.

Arghonaut, on the other hand, has Unaware, a very powerful ability that lets it bypass a lot of stat boosters and is still a very good, relevant ability. That would probably be classified as a Primary Ability, so perhaps a competitive Secondary Ability would be more fitting.

And, of course, we should consider flavor HA's if the situation arises. The only drawbacks are theoretical (future generation mechanics changes), and if we think that it would be fun...why not?

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Which 3 CAPs do you consider overly viable in their role, such that they have too much metagame versatility / relevance and it actively detracts from their concept? Would an Ability Update focused on viability address these imbalances?

Tomohawk is probably the definition of this question (moreso than Aurumoth, who is moreso dominant because of just being a ridiculously powerful Pokemon). Tomohawk currently runs around 7-8 different sets effectively, and some sets (HazeHawk, Offensive Hawk, Rain Dance Hawk, HazardHawk) can fit on any team with ease and deal with a good portion of the metagame. Tomohawk's concept was "Momentum", which was an extremely vague concept that could be defined in many ways, which makes its versatility a bit more understandable. However, it definitely has some tools that push it through to the next level that may need some re-evaluation, and some sets/moves don't really deal with gaining or losing momentum directly. Will an ability change address these imbalances? Probably. Replacing Prankster would deal with a lot of why Tomohawk is dominant. However, I don't think it's a sure bet change that should happen, a lot of ways to make Tomohawk fit its concept more fairly could be done in the movepool stages (I'll save that discussion for the appropriate thread). Tomohawk will be a long discussion, since there's a number of ways you could tackle it to update it correctly.

Aurumoth sticks out as the other Pokemon that answers this question, but Aurumoth's issue is less about versatility and more about just having one dominant set/set-up that completely bypasses its concept. Aurumoth's concept was "Risky Business", or a Pokemon built around the concept of risk/reward. I'll save the discussion for later, but I personally believe that this is a good example of a concept that needs a discussion on Abilities in order to have positive change for this CAP, as well as meaningful move discussion.

Cawmodore used to have issues of it fulfilling its concept too easily, but Gen VII may have curbed that a bit (may still warrant ability discussion, though). I do think that the first two I mentioned require actual discussion on their abilities, though, and there are a small number of unlisted CAPs who may need one or two movepool discussion points brought up. Nothing too major otherwise.

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Which 3 CAPs do you consider poorly viable in their role, such that they have too little metagame versatility / relevance and it actively detracts from their concept? Would an Ability Update focused on viability address these imbalances?

Voodoom
. Not going to beat a dead horse, Voodoom has issues and can be tackled in a few ways. However, I firmly believe that we may need to have a concept reassessment discussion for Voodoom before we even tackle it, since its concept, as it currently stands, can be seen as non-competitive. There may be a solution to it, however. (I am not sure if this is the right place to bring that solution up, or if I should wait for the thread.)

Revenankh. It...really doesn't have a role in the metagame right now. Like, at all. It has some small niche use as a Bulk Up + Rest user and has access to Glare, but I think it really needs to tackle its concept in a different way. Along with Arghonaut, who is similar but at least has a defined niche role, these two stand to benefit the most in the movepool section and may require some new abilities.

Malaconda is tricky for me. I don't think it needs a new ability at all, and it's actually okay (re: not great, but usable) in the metagame. It still fulfills its concept, but it's just...not as successful as it would like to be, which limits its viability. I think, really, Malaconda needs a small stat buff, but if that's off the table...not really sure where to go from that point.

There are other Pokemon that fit into the "relevance" role, like Kitsunoh, Plasmanta, and Naviathan. However, the previous three are probably the most pressing. Point is, there's plenty of activity that could be done with this question, with a number of CAPs.
 
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SHSP

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top CAP Contributor
Moderator
Generation 4 Updates- Competitive Hidden Abilities

I think that some of the gen 4 CAPmons could benefit greatly from a hidden ability. As others have said, Revanankh really gets little out of both it's abilities- Air Lock doesn't do much of anything, and Shed Skin is lackluster to rely on. Fidgit, as NumberCruncher mentioned, has a limited use for Persistent and Vital Spirit, although a nice benefit, is niche at best. Arghonaut really doesn't have a leg to stand on with Unaware, and Frisk- although indirectly buffed by Z-Crystal's prevalence in SM, is lacking, as is Limber (indirectly hurt by the T-Wave nerfs, to boot). Pyroak is an odd case- as much as it's abilities do next to nothing for it, and encourage such a god-awful set, it remains a solid mon. To give Roak a relatively usable ability could be an issue, and realistically I'm undecided on it. None of the other gen 4 CAPs really need a competitive ability- Syclant, Cyclohm, Stratagem, Colossoil, Krill, and even Voodoom have strong abilities and don't need a third.

Overly Viable CAPs

It's pretty clear that Aurumoth is far and away the biggest culprit here. Three strong abilities, wide, wide movepool, strong stats, and an absolute failure of a concept- so, so very risky. Hell, Weak Armor, it's weakest ability, even got buffed this gen. Little to nothing about Auru is risky, and although the issues it has are spread throughout the whole of the mon, an ability update would help knock it down into a riskier spot and one better for the metagame- Illusion is insane, and it's other abilities aren't bad by any stretch of the imagination.

Tomohawk clocks in as a close #2. It's ability to shut down setup, wall common threats, have offensive presence, and be incredibly splashable on most if not all teams, push this into a ridiculous territory. It has gotten far worse in the transition to Gen 7, however, and I'm not sure removing Prankster is the best option we can go for to bring it back into line while keeping it still usable. Nerfing in general is something we have to be wary on- it's far easier to make something Voodoom Tier trying to make it balanced, than it is to buff something into Aurumoth Tier trying to balance.

The third is a tricky one- nothing stands too far out compared to Auru and Tomo. Cawm got a lot worse going into gen 7, thanks to psychic terrain from Tapu Lele as well as a more offensive metagame that makes it far harder to set up a BD and sweep, but the effect it has on teambuilding still has to be considered- although mons like scarf Volkraken and Cyclohm aren't in any way bad, good teams often run a solid Cawm check to prevent an auto-loss from a play mistake against the bird. Volt Absorb does take some of the blame for this fact- limiting it's answers greatly, but it's not the crux of the mon. Krill also has a great ability in Magic Guard, as others have pointed out, and Magic Guard is a large part of Krill being a force in CAP in general- it's an insane ability.

Poorly Viable CAPs

Alas, poor Voodoom. It just isn't good, just about any way you slice it, and it's been better outlined by other posters in this thread. However, ability wise, Volt Absorb and Lightning Rod aren't particularly bad abilities, and I doubt any reasonable ability could really end up boosting Voodoom into viability singlehandedly. I agree with DS a lot on this- to benefit Voodoom, we might need to dig far deeper into the whole of the mon rather than any one part, concept included.

Arghonaut doesn't do much of anything. Another mon hurt bad by the introduction of fairies, I honestly haven't seen this used in ages. Ability may not be the best place that would help boost it back up, but as mentioned before, it's predictable as all hell, and as strong as Unaware is, it can't carry Argh on its own.

The third slot here is a toss up between Malaconda and Revenankh. Rev can't do much at all, really, other then check most Pheromosa sets. It doesn't bulk up very well, and it's abilities are massively at fault- like mentioned earlier, they just do nothing or next to nothing. Conda is in a rough spot, but yet again, it's issues may not be directly related to ability alone- Harvest and Inflitrator are both odd abilities that aren't the biggest issue with Conda.
 

Drapionswing

Eating it up, YUMMY!
is a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Consistent with the idea CAPs should not have more than two competitive abilities, should Generation 4 Updates consider adding Competitive Hidden Abilities? For Generation 4 CAPs that do have 2 Competitive Abilities, should they have Hidden Abilities that constitute a Flavor Update?

I can't see a reasonable reason as to why the Generation 4 CAPs should not have 2 competitive abilities and a flavor ability.

Which 3 CAPs do you consider overly viable in their role, such that they have too much metagame versatility / relevance and it actively detracts from their concept? Would an Ability Update focused on viability address these imbalances?

Tomohawk
is a very dominating force in the metagame capable of filling roles such as rocker, spinner, physical blanket check, rain setter and abuser, wallbreaker, stallbreaker. This extreme variety causes a negative centralisation where tomohawk can fit near perfectly on nearly every team if you try hard enough. That being said I do think it's overly viable in the meta, however I'm not sure an Ability focused update would address these imbalances without harming it's concept greatly. If anything tomohawk's concept of momentum needs to be specific in what particular aspect of momentum it aims to affect.

Aurumoth has the ability to practically force a 50/50 nearly every turn where the person not using Aurumoth has to guess whether or not it is Aurumoth unless there are hazards up, this combined with amazing coverage and decent bulk creates an incredible sweeper with endless potential. An ability focused update would definitely help tone this down as the ability illusion is what allows Aurumoth to get the initial free settup (and potential secondary settup on the reacting switch to aurumoth).

Which 3 CAPs do you consider poorly viable in their role, such that they have too little metagame versatility / relevance and it actively detracts from their concept? Would an Ability Update focused on viability address these imbalances?

Naviathan is and always has been a great Calm Mind user capable of beating many bulky teams, however this was only half of it's concept in which it was meant to be able to utilise two set up options. Dragon Dance just lacks offensive pressure to be worth while as water/steel doesn't have the best physical stab typing or matchup in this meta (or the last) and prevents it from preforming this role at all as VS defensive teams it was dead weight and there are many pokemon which matchup against offensive teams better than naviathan. I think that an ability update would definitely help fix this problem.

Kitsunoh is a good pokemon but struggles at doing a lot of things such as scouting due to it's bulk. It prevents it from really taking advantage of that amazing typing because most attacks will still do considerable amount of damage to it or pokemon it'd like to come in on have coverage to get around it (Mega Metagross for example). This being said I think ability based updates could give kitsunoh new breathing room as well as movepool updates.

Arghonaut has kinda fallen off the face of the earth, it's concept is impossible to ever achieve and therefore there's nothing we can do for it there. Fairies being added in Gen 6 must have really made a big difference as it's extremely difficult to use right now and is a CAP that I believe is in need of an urgent movepool and ability update.
 

HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
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I'm off the mindset that we shouldn't consciously be making competitive edits unless the mon is quite bad or quite OP. And I really think that the vast majority of the CAPmons do not fit into that category (Auru and Tomo are the only two that I would ever think are too good and even then idk if I'd want to change them and Voodoom, Mala, and Argho are the only ones that consistently underperform).

I personally think it's destructive to ask for a certain quantity of good and bad mons and use that as a starting point. Instead of trying to meet a subjective quota, I will just talk about some of the mons mentioned so far for X category.

Mons mentioned that I do not think are too overpowered: I have no idea why people think Kril or even Caw in gen7 are that good. Over gen6 and into gen7 Kril has never particularly shined at anything. Magic Guard with stellar HP is great. 80 offensive stats and a lack of supporting makes up for it. In gen7, Psychic Terrain makes Cawmodore's priority easier to play around and two new defensive mons in Toxapex and Celesteela have ways of blocking it.

Mons mentioned that I do not think are too underpowered: Pyroak's bulk is fantastic and it's already very hard to KO without SE STABs or superpowered rain/sun moves. Battle Armor is actually a pretty good defensive ability. Yeah, Rock Head doesn't do much for it, but having one bad ability doesn't make the mon bad (this could also be said about Fidgit). I disagree that Shed Skin on Revenankh is a poor ability as it allows it to reliably set up; Rev's problem isn't it's ability but moreso that Gen 5, 6, and 7 have introduced a ton of new threats with typings that make it hard to set up.

Pretty much I think that almost every gen4 or gen5 mon should be updated, but these updates for the most part should be limited to new moves, etc. If we go too competitively in depth with our revisions then we're probably going to screw up and cause more harm than good. Overall this particular free for all discussion doesn't interest me terribly so I might not post in this thread again, but I currently feel that this thread already might be overly weighing competitive elements and is turning into a subjective clusterpool of "I like/dislike this and this mon's current competitive placement" rather than discussing the mons who could realistically get minor competitive buffs just from the list of available new moves since the mon was released.

My personal recommendation is that we update mons from one gen at a time so that the GLs can focus during a particular month long slot rather than being burned out over multiple months working on mons here and there... We have no schedule, and I just really really don't like how things are organized so far as it creates unclear expectations for leaders and participants alike.
 

jas61292

used substitute
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With regard to the first question, I absolutely think that giving hidden abilities to the Gen 4 CAPs. As to whether they should be competitive or flavor, well, let me include that with my thoughts on the other two questions.

So, first off, I definitely am of the same mindset as HeaLnDeaL when it comes to thinking about the competitive side of updates. Manipulation of CAP Pokemon for the attempt of a desired result in the metagame is what certain past CAP changes were, and as we all know, those were far from successful. Frankly, I think that is just an inherent truth though. Metagames develop as they will, and trying to forcibly manipulate a large number of pokemon to achieve desired results is destined for failure. So, with that said, I think purely competitively minded changes should not be what we do, except in the most egregious cases. That's not to say we ignore competitive elements altogether. No, these are generational updates, an Pokemon can change, sometimes significantly so, when the generation changes. But it does mean that we shouldn't be looking at individual Pokemon with a goal of making them hit certain competitive goals, unless they are extreme cases.

With that said, I do think there probably are some extreme cases, but not very many. With regard to ones that may be too strong, perhaps the more obvious of these is Aurumoth. Not only is it incredibly good in just about every way, but it is also the only CAP Pokemon to have three different competitively minded abilities, the weakest of which actually got a buff this gen. I'm glad Deck brought up abilities here, because ultimately, with regard to the principles we are trying to follow, I think ability change would probably be the best and cleanest way to "deal" with the Aurumoth case, if we deem it does need to be dealt with. It would also be a way of retrofitting it to our current ability policy.

Beyond Aurumoth though, I am really not convinced there are any Pokemon that are too strong to the extent that we should try and do something about it. I know people love to talk about Tomohawk, and it is an absolutely fantastic mon, but its quality comes from the variety of what it can do and how it can excel at a few of them. I don't think any individual thing it can do is on the overpowering side, and I don't think its versatility is a problem. Furthermore, I think some of its sets, especially of the offensive variety, are highly overrated. Can it run them? Yes. And are they bad. Certainly not. But its not "one of the best offensive mons in their tier" as has been suggested in this thread.

Also, as a general note, I think that with regard to ability change, this is something we have to be careful with. One of our principles is Continuity, which says that updates should be based on concept or established identity. It might be easy, for example, to say Illusion could be taken from Aurumoth, as doing so would align with the concept, and at the same time, while it might take a bit away from its established identity, that identity was based more on its ability to sweep with Quiver Dance than on Illusion. However, it is not as simple an argument to make for most Pokemon. Talk of removing Prakster from Tomohawk, or even worse, imo, Magic Guard from Krilowatt would be ripping away something has been the absolute core of their established identity for generations. Hell, in the case of Kril, while it might not be as good as it once was, it has literally survived for 3 consecutive generations using largely one exact same set, and Magic Guard is the absolute key that lets the set work. I get that you can argue from concept, but it is a far cry from being similar to the Aurumoth case where identity and function could remain largely unchanged, if a bit diminished.

Now, on the other hand, looking at Pokemon that might be considered underpowered, I think the obvious one here is Voodoom. It is fairy bait made before fairies. While I do not think we should try and completely overhaul it, I do not think it would be a bad idea to just look at it for a second and think, what might we have done if fairies had existed. Though.... that said... that is a weird question, since Voodoom would be far, far different in many ways if they did, and not just because of itself, but because its supposed partner, Togekiss became a fairy. But with that said, thinking about how Poison and Steel used to be considered worthless coverage, and now they are valuable, and maybe taking that into account might be worthwhile. But beyond that, lets not go trying to redo what the community already did.

And beyond Voodoom, I really don't think there is anything so weak we need to give it special attention. Everything should, and will, get new toys. That's what happens between generation. And yes, some of those should be competitive. But I don't think we should have any agenda in mind with them, because I don't think that will lead good places.
 
Consistent with the idea CAPs should not have more than two competitive abilities, should Generation 4 Updates consider adding Competitive Hidden Abilities? For Generation 4 CAPs that do have 2 Competitive Abilities, should they have Hidden Abilities that constitute a Flavor Update?

I personally believe that Generation 4 CAPs should be provided with competitive Hidden Abilities as long as they support the original concept. If the abilities that the CAP possesses are deemed to let the CAP currently play it's role good enough, then Hidden Abilities should be constituted as a Flavor update. Pokemon like Pyroak, Arghonaut, Kitsunoh, Voodoom, and Revenankh are literally begging to be given new competitive or flavor abilities. Especially competitive ones. Pyroak desperately wants a usable ability, Arghonaut only has one ability (smh), Kitsunoh really isn't being helped much by Limber, Voodoom doesn't get helped at all really by Electric immunity, and Revenakh wants something for flavor or an ability slightly better than Shed Skin.

Which 3 CAPs do you consider overly viable in their role, such that they have too much metagame versatility / relevance and it actively detracts from their concept? Would an Ability Update focused on viability address these imbalances?

Aurumoth: I don't believe I should have to say anything about this stupid bug. It breaks half the flavor rules in the Pokemon games, has dumb amounts of setup with Quiver Dance, Tail Glow, and Dragon Dance, and has an impossibly easy time setting up those moves thanks to the ability Illusion. It's so smothered in moves and abilities and excess that it's concept was almost completely ignored. An ability-focused update would definitely begin to address these imbalances, by helping rectify a huge culprit in Illusion, but I personally believe that some movepool adjustments are probably required as well.

Tomohawk: If I recall correctly, Tomohawk was actually supposed to use the ability Intimidate. I think you can tell there is something wrong when a Pokemon opts to not use a top-tier ability. Tomohawk has a fairly wide movepool that once again breaks a few Gamefreak flavor trends, but is not nearly as bad as Aurumoth. I personally think that Prankster overshadows the ability Intimidate more than it should, but I don't see how an ability update on Tomohawk would really help it without whacking it across the golf course and having something entirely new pop up. It would seriously affect Tomohawk further than we might want to affect it.

Cawmodore: I just think that Cawm puts too much strain on teambuilding with the ability Volt Absorb. It makes it become used in ways that seem somewhat anti-concept, such as pivoting it in to absorb attacks. Additionally, it forces Pokemon that would normally be effective checks to run Hidden Power Fire or other Fire-type coverage. I don't know if Cawmodore is necessarily as broken as it was in generation 6, and I definitely believe it can be dealt with, but I think later on we should take a close look at Cawmodore and decide once and for all if it impacts the metagame too much.

Which 3 CAPs do you consider poorly viable in their role, such that they have too little metagame versatility / relevance and it actively detracts from their concept? Would an Ability Update focused on viability address these imbalances?

I'm just going to bite for the obvious here and list out a few before choosing three. Arghonaut, Revenankh, Voodoom, Malaconda, and Kitsunoh. First of all, let me point out that all of these are heavily limited by stats, moves, and typing in addition to abilities. I'll go ahead and delve deeper into Kitsunoh, Revenakh, and Voodoom.

Kitsunoh: Kitsunoh is an interesting Pokemon. It, along with Revenakh, are probably the most viable out of the less relevant CAP Pokemon. It sees some usage thanks to moderately good speed coupled with outstanding typing and a respectable movepool. The main issue is that Kitsunoh lacks the attack stat to be relevant as a fast attacker or revenge killer, while lacking enough defenses to play the role of a bulky pivot. Generally players run a set with Shadow Striker, U-Turn, Will-O-Wisp/Meteor Mash, and Defog. However, Kitsunoh is also greatly hindered by the ability options. Frisk is completely useless to any competent player. Limber has extremely limited use, especially after Thunder Wave was made much less relevant in Generation 7. Neither of these abilities really feel like they help Kitsunoh play the role of a scout, which was the intended concept. Overall I believe Kitsunoh would benefit greatly from having an Ability Update, and could be provided with an ability that would help it scout out the moves and team of an opponent.

Revenankh: Revenakh isn't explicitly bad. That would be simplifying things too much. It is still a decent user of the move Bulk Up, but it struggles significantly more in Generation 7. It's stats are slightly below par, it's moves are slightly limiting against Fairy types and other bulky Pokemon, and it's abilities don't help it much. Shed Skin relies on a 33% chance rather than a guaranteed benefit. Shed Skin isn't a terrible ability, and is pro-concept, but I believe an Ability update could provide Revenankh with either a great flavor ability (Mummy anyone?) or an ability that could help it accomplish its concept even better, while bringing it more relevance in the current CAP metagame.

Voodoom: Oh lore. This little guy got screwed over with the passing generations. No way of handling Fairy types, and essentially doesn't have the moves, stats, typing, or ability to keep up with the more recent metagames. Voodoom would benefit greatly from an ability update as it could potentially provide it with a more usable ability that might help make Voodoom more relevant. Of course this is only the tip of the iceberg, and I'm pretty sure Voodoom at the very least would also need some help movepool-wise.
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun
Consistent with the idea CAPs should not have more than two competitive abilities, should Generation 4 Updates consider adding Competitive Hidden Abilities? For Generation 4 CAPs that do have 2 Competitive Abilities, should they have Hidden Abilities that constitute a Flavor Update?

I guess it really depends on the Pokemon, I feel being too general about this idea of fixing this issue could result in some unneeded discussion but definitely start on fixing some of the Pokemon like Fidgit and Cyclohm for example don't need a second competitive ability since 1) Fidgit is already well known and viable due to persistent, no need to fix that and 2) Cyclohm already has a good enough ability much like Landorus-T and Ferrothorn and doesn't need any buff or other options as well in my opinion. For Fidgit I'd almost consider just moving one of the abilities to become hidden as it kind of makes sense in my point of view. As for the others fix as you please. Specifically adding better abilities for Kitsunoh, Rev, and Argho.

Which 3 CAPs do you consider overly viable in their role, such that they have too much metagame versatility / relevance and it actively detracts from their concept?Would an Ability Update focused on viability address these imbalances?

Rather than complain how brain dead stupid Aurumoth is I want to make a counterclaim for Tomohawk. Yes it is a very good Pokemon but taking things into perspective its much like our good ol' buddy pal Landorus-T. It does a crap ton of stuff that we all want except Tomohawk is more durable than Landorus since it has recovery but I think saying that its overcentralizing is a bit rediculous. Yes I know this argument seems like I'm just saying Tomohawk is CAP Landorus-T but it kind of is and is in no way in any shape, form, or fashion more centralizing than Aurumoth.

Which 3 CAPs do you consider poorly viable in their role, such that they have too little metagame versatility / relevance and it actively detracts from their concept?Would an Ability Update focused on viability address these imbalances?


I'm sorry guys but I think Voodoom is unsalvageable unless you give it steelworker + sunsteel strike lol, but I'll put it here to answer the question.

Necturna I feel could definitely do better in the metagame since luring stuff isn't as cool and effective as you'd think and Sticky Webs is only an okay niche. Both of its abilities are terrible and maybe an ability to help with its speed issues could help.

Arghonaut cuz its a bulky water without actually being good, just use mirror coat mola instead. Give it some good abilities especially since we have 1 or two slots to work with like maybe something to help it pivot on stuff better. Unaware just doesn't cut it especially since most sweepers nowadays have coverage against Argho.
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
Consistent with the idea CAPs should not have more than two competitive abilities, should Generation 4 Updates consider adding Competitive Hidden Abilities? For Generation 4 CAPs that do have 2 Competitive Abilities, should they have Hidden Abilities that constitute a Flavor Update?

I can pretty confidently say "yes" to this question, but, as many before me have stated, only a few CAPs need full on Competitive Hidden Ability changes. All other Hidden Ability Updates should constitute as flavor alone. I'm not specifically sure how the original three will work in this statement, but all updates should keep in mind the original concepts and individuality of the CAP in the current meta.


Which 3 CAPs do you consider overly viable in their role, such that they have too much metagame versatility / relevance and it actively detracts from their concept?Would an Ability Update focused on viability address these imbalances?

This is a worn down opinion, but Aurumoth is the constant name that sticks out in the category. Illusion is just a bit too much for it, as the sheer unpredictability of the ability can remove a lot of the risky in the "risky" pokemon. Its stats, while unchangeable, are just bulky enough to recieve multiple switch-in opportunities. I think an Ability Update will help to an extent, as it will make it more difficult to bring it in safely, hereby increasing its risk.

Tomohawk is also another Pokemon that is commonly found throughout the discussion, but whether it should get a full-on Ability Update I don't really agree with. Yes, it is a major force inside the metagame that is incredible at a large number of roles; yes, it has trouble following its momentum-based concept due to the obscurity of the subject; yes, I wish Intimidate would be used more instead of Prankster. But, at this point, removing Prankster sorta removes the soul of modern Tomohawk. Whether we should delve into an Ability Update for Tomohawk is still a question that should be discussed.

Cawmadore is also a Pokemon that was supposedly to use Intimidate at one point (see a trend?), but was overshadowed by another Ability: Volt Absorb. Both the shift to an Electric-heavy metagame and the removal of Brave Bird to Win Talonflame has greatly helped its commonality in the meta. Volt Absorb, while certainly helpful for getting a Belly Drum off, makes its only weakness Fire, a type that isn't neccesarily ideal for the whole of the metagame. Certain Pokemon, like Plasmanta, are forced to run Fire coverage to beat Cawm, which leaves other beneficial coverage options removed. While I wouldn't say it's overcentralizing, as there are some strong checks and counters to it, Volt Absorb makes Cawmadore a little too tough to handle at points.


Which 3 CAPs do you consider poorly viable in their role, such that they have too little metagame versatility / relevance and it actively detracts from their concept?Would an Ability Update focused on viability address these imbalances?

Voodoom.
Oh where do I begin. While its stats cannot be salvaged at this point, I feel that giving it two Electric-immunity abilities is a little repetitive and doesn't really help it much. I pretty much agree with DarkSlay that it's concept may be flawed as a whole, and may need reassessment, but I would like to stray away from that option. Probably the best thing we can do with it is give it at least some anti-fairy coverage, since even a Comfey could make Voodoom use Soak.

Revenankh also falls under the case of Bad Ability Syndrome, but that is its overall problem, instead of Voodoom overall being bad. Air Lock is no longer a very good ability for its purpose, as it only gives him an anti-weather niche. Shed Skin sounds good on paper, but its low odds won't really help it out very often. Revenankh would most likely become a lot better due to an Ability Update, although what ability it gets is unknown to me.


P.S. Mummy Rev or we riot
 
Consistent with the idea CAPs should not have more than two competitive abilities, should Generation 4 Updates consider adding Competitive Hidden Abilities? For Generation 4 CAPs that do have 2 Competitive Abilities, should they have Hidden Abilities that constitute a Flavor Update?

I'd rather not give a solid "yes" to the entire question, but regardless, I'm absolutely in favor of discussing the addition of hidden abilities. I feel like it should be handled case-by-case though; I don't think there should any hard and fast rule that there must be exactly two competitive abilities and exactly one flavor ability, or even three abilities total. I'm inclined to say that a flavor-oriented hidden ability would be sufficient for many of them.

Which 3 CAPs do you consider overly viable in their role, such that they have too much metagame versatility / relevance and it actively detracts from their concept? Would an Ability Update focused on viability address these imbalances?

I'll just mention the big two: Aurumoth and Tomohawk. I probably don't need to go into too much detail with Aurumoth, it's an incredibly threatening mon in so many ways thanks to its extreme coverage and boosting options, and even if you do manage to scout its set or are packing something like Unaware Clefable, it can still manage to put in work thanks to Illusion being as good as it is. Aurumoth was a top-tier threat last generation, and with the addition of Z crystals (mainly Psychium Z and Firium Z), Psychic Terrain, the Gale Wings nerf, and the Sucker Punch nerf, it's managed to get even better. An ability update could certainly help address this (mainly looking at Illusion), though it may be worthwhile to look into its movepool as well.

As for Tomohawk, I think DarkSlay summed up my thoughts on it pretty well. Tomohawk's versatility is pretty much unmatched; it just pulls off several sets really, really well. Certain sets have a presence that are massively felt in the metagame when it comes to building for certain playstyles. Any seasoned CAP metagame player would tell you that the strain Prankster+Haze and LO Taunt sets put on offense and stall respectively must be accounted for when building in the current metagame, unless you're cool with consistently losing to Tomohawk. The thing is, I don't think any of these sets are necessarily overpowered on their own, which is what would make a discussion about nerfing Tomohawk tough. There are multiple viable ways of going about it if we deem it necessary, but to answer the second question, I don't think it's as simple as just changing an ability (i.e. "let's remove Prankster and call it a day"), and I'd like for us to explore multiple possibilities if that's the path we choose to take.

Which 3 CAPs do you consider poorly viable in their role, such that they have too little metagame versatility / relevance and it actively detracts from their concept? Would an Ability Update focused on viability address these imbalances?

The big one here is Voodoom, which if we're being honest would probably need more than a simple ability update to make it even remotely viable. There are a few other mons which definitely underperform in the current metagame, but still hold small niches, and I don't think it should be our goal to buff each mon until it hits some arbitrary standard of viability. I might edit in some of my other thoughts on this later, for now I gotta run.
 

reachzero

the pastor of disaster
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I'm seeing some trends here they deserve some comment.

The first thing I'd like to point out is a little philosophical. We can "fix" anything if we're willing to pay any price, but that would not be a good decision. We need to think extremely carefully about the practical impact and scope of the changes we make. Voodoom is plenty fixable if you want to give it Mega Launcher and Sludge Bomb. The problem is, now you have Voodoom crushing the metagame, and that's not desirable either. Remember that it will be at least two or so years before we get a new generation and an opportunity to fix any changes we regret.

With that in mind, snake_rattler had a line I thought was perfect.

"I just want to mention that while we do want to give our CAPs good updates, we don't want each CAP to be A+ on the viability rankings. I think this will be a success if every mon has a decent niche in the metagame, even if it's super small."

If we wanted to make every CAP A+, we could do it. But in the long run we are better off making a few strategic changes here and there, without sweeping alterations to viability. And this is fine, because no CAP we currently have is a totally lost cause, including Voodoom and Aurumoth. One or two competitive changes will be good enough in every case we actually have in CAP. I could go through and demonstrate this CAP by CAP, but that can wait. The point is, don't underestimate the sheer impact even small changes can have, they add up.

With that out of the way, let me address some points brought up multiple times that I think are misguided.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Not every CAP needs a top notch ability. I've seen people suggest new abilities for Necturna, Pyroak and Fidgit, which seems a little silly to me since these Pokemon are already very viable. Necturna in particular was intentionally given mediocre abilities, and its role in the metagame is unique and secure. Pyroak is actually awesome right now, what with being one of the single most reliable answers to the hugely threatening Mega Metagross. Why risk making a very viable CAP significantly stronger?

Finally, Cawmodore is fine. Every good team has a strong answer for it, and several of the best Scarf users (chiefly Volkraken) shut it down almost completely. Moreover, people are *really* overselling it's ability to pivot using the Belly Drum set--its HP and SpD are low enough that switching into predicted Electric attacks is risky business. For instance, switching into Tapu Koko means you had better predict correctly: predicting wrong means you take 35.9 - 42.5% from Life Orb Dazzling Gleam, enough that you can probably forget about realistically Belly Drumming.

I'm looking forward to the process and the results, this is going to be fun!
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
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Consistent with the idea CAPs should not have more than two competitive abilities, should Generation 4 Updates consider adding Competitive Hidden Abilities? For Generation 4 CAPs that do have 2 Competitive Abilities, should they have Hidden Abilities that constitute a Flavor Update?

So as the Gen 4 Leader, I'd like to say hi.

My general stance on this is that as a matter of priority, Competitive Hidden Abilities should go first and Flavor Hidden Abilities should go last, which is not dissimilar to how the actual CAP process treats Competitive Abilities vs. Flavor Abilities. I do think all our Gen 4 CAPs should have access to a Hidden Ability that is distinct from their current abilities.

Which 3 CAPs do you consider overly viable in their role, such that they have too much metagame versatility / relevance and it actively detracts from their concept? Would an Ability Update focused on viability address these imbalances?

Aurumoth, Cawmodore, and Tomohawk.

Auru is the worst offender, having two fantastic abilities and then Weak Armor, which never gets used. Ability is definitely the place to address the biggest problems Aurumoth causes. Aurumoth is sufficiently threatening with a single turn of setup. Illusion often gives it the opportunity for two.

Cawmodore's Volt Absorb totally alters the way it is played, and I have slapped Cawm on several teams when I need a strong sweeper *knowing* that a predicted Volt Switch is a perfect opportunity to get it in, set up the Drum, and proceed to sweep. With Volt Absorb Cawmodore can come in on Poison, Ground, and Electric attacks with impunity, and that's just too much for a one-turn setup Pokemon.

Tomohawk's Prankster is indeed very powerful and overshadows Intimidate entirely. It is also essential to how Tomohawk functions and plays. Unlike Illusion which just makes Aurumoth stupidly unbalanced when combined with its setup options or Volt Absorb which turns Cawmodore into a strange blend of excellent pivot and threatening sweeper, Prankster allows Tomohawk the ability to consistently switch in and turn matches around, especially against setup sweepers. What makes Tomohawk a little TOO good for my liking is that in addition to being a fantastic support Pokemon, it also has ridiculously good coverage and enough SpA to use it. There are times where I've been tempted to splash a one-attack support Tomohawk on a team and not even run STAB because the specific thing that coverage move will hit is more important than generic damage. Tomohawk needs to be addressed, but I don't think Ability is the source of what pushes Hawk over the edge.

I will give a nod to Krillowatt's Magic Guard in that it was harshly received for the longest time after it was voted in. Power Creep and especially Speed Creep hasn't been that kind to Krillowatt over the years though, and Magic Guard at this point is what keeps it in contention. I think this doesn't have to be the case after a movepool update, so I'm open to the idea of discussing it.

Which 3 CAPs do you consider poorly viable in their role, such that they have too little metagame versatility / relevance and it actively detracts from their concept? Would an Ability Update focused on viability address these imbalances?

Voodoom is the obvious one. When Voodoom was made Fighting/Dark was unresisted neutral coverage. Voodoom was a great offensive Pokemon with slightly worse bulk than Machamp, Baton Pass chains were a legal, common strategy. About the only thing over the years that hasn't conspired against Voodoom in Smogon's competitive ruleset is Lightning Rod getting buffed. None of the things that made Voodoom threatening when it was made are applicable to it now. Ability doesn't address any of Voodoom's core weaknesses, Voodooms Abilities are solid.

Argh and Rev have similar issues to each other. This is a commentary on all 3 really, but Fighting was a FANTASTIC typing for anything to have before Fairies came along. It is still FANTASTIC when combined properly, as Tomohawk shows. Generation 7 put viable Fairies into overdrive, every single Tapu craps on Arghonaught, and Rev doesn't fare much better. Tapu Lele in particular even made *Psychic* a revitalized threat, as if the Fairy STAB wasn't punishment enough. Revenankh's bulk is tailored to a metagame where the most threatening booster was Life Orb or Choice Specs. You didn't have Megas running around, or things like Aerilate and Pixilate which usually feature on said Megas, making them even more powerful. Rev and Argh were both updated with their current movepools while we were still using the VGM system to structure movepools. For this reason many of the old CAPs seem to be missing things they "should" have like Rev not learning Stone Edge, or why Argh has Gunk Shot and Sludge Bomb but not Poison Jab.

Ability Updates can probably address some problems Argh and Rev have simply because their typing and metagame threats aren't conducive to their concepts/roles. Revenankh was made before Concepts even existed, and Argh was great at decentralizing the metagame it existed in. At this point, they need an update in concept as well as for viability.

Other Thoughts:

I think criticism of Pyroak for not having a good ability is nonsense. In almost every team I've ever enjoyed playing that was successful I had a Pyroak on it, and part of the reason is that Pyroak will never get crit-haxed on a switch thanks to Battle Armor. It also glides effortlessly into the usual weak Scalds and heals the damage off with Synthesis or Leech Seed. It's Poison weakness is now more prominent while its Fairy resistance has given it a huge boon. Pyroak may indeed deserve a second competitive ability, but it has probably aged the best of the three concept-less CAPs. It's a quintessential bulky support Pokemon with a unique type, and aside from minor Competitive Updates and Flavor Updates I don't think it needs much. Pyroak needs to be Spruced up, not pruned and trimmed for a new look.

A rundown of the remainder of Gen 4, just so people can get an idea of my initial thoughts:

Syclant: Has 2 great competitive abilities and good offensive setup options. Minor Competitive Move Updates + Flavor Updates mostly due to age.

Fidgit: Persistent should be expanded along with its general Competitive Support movepool. Vital Spirit is fine as well. Significant Competitive + Flavor Updates.

Stratagem: This is Syclant except it's a rock. Literally is Accelerock tho >_>

Kitsunoh: Kitsunoh is one of those mons perpetually caught in middle viability. I think some Abilities would be way too much for it, while its existing ones offer only minor utility in Gen 7. Shadow Strike is still a godly option. I think Movepool updates will be able to address some of its concerns.

Cyclohm: MY BABY! Oh, and it really only needs Minor Competitive Move + Flavor Updates, mostly due to age.

Colossoil: Another Pokemon that has aged very well. The only mon I think only really needs Flavor Updates since it has all the relevant STABs/Coverage/Support moves and two great abilities.
 
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Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
The feedback in this thread has been great. A few more questions to focus on the next phase.

Note that some of these questions have included "X number of CAPs" just so that it will be easier to determine what people truly thing the priorities are, rather than a laundry list of where people stand on each CAP.

- - - - -

Which 3 CAPs do you believe most fit their concept (metagame role), such that any update either brings them into fullness or makes them look like a Generation 7 Based version of that concept?

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Which 3 CAPs do you believe least fit their concept (metagame role), such that their concept needs active reconsideration (or in some cases establishment)? This is not intended to judge the individual merit of prior concepts, but rather "does this Pokemon perform a role that matches its intent, and if not why not and where should it go consistent with Update Principles?"

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Which 3 CAPs do you believe least fit their concept (metagame role), such that their concept needs active reconsideration (or in some cases establishment)? This is not intended to judge the individual merit of prior concepts, but rather "does this Pokemon perform a role that matches its intent, and if not why not and where should it go consistent with Update Principles?"

So I guess the easiest answer to this question is Voodoom, Volkraken, and Plasmanta. Their concepts don't work, can't worked, and won't work, especially Voodoom who suffers from both being terrible himself and his partner being mediocre, and Volkraken who somehow got paired with Lucario. Heck, even Latias isn't doing great right now. Plasmanta is probably in the best shape out of the 3 (since the mon is not itself terrible, and its partner is also still pretty usable), but even there the Plasmanta-Gyarados combo is just not that great.

Which 3 CAPs do you believe most fit their concept (metagame role), such that any update either brings them into fullness or makes them look like a Generation 7 Based version of that concept?

So the three mons that actually do fill concept well are Stratagem, Mollux, and Cyclohm. Stratagem still keeps on chugging along as he always has done, being a really good mono-Rock Special Attacker. Mollux is at an all time high right now, with his unusual typing being a huge defensive asset that you don't usually associate with mons with 4x weaknesses. Cyclohm keeps on getting great utility out of Shield Dust and Static. Honorable mention goes to Colossoil, who still slams the secondaries, so long as the secondaries aren't coming from the likes of Tomohawk or Mega-Scizor.
 

boxofkangaroos

this is the day of the expanding man
Which 3 CAPs do you believe least fit their concept?

Aurumoth
's concept was essentially "high-risk, high-reward". However, at this point, this Pokemon is just no-risk, high-reward. With its Illusion ability it rarely struggles to find a set-up opportunity, and there is ultimately no risk involved in sweeping the opposing team. Really, the only "risk"-based ability Aurumoth has is Weak Armor, and that ability is by far its least-used just because Illusion, and No Guard to a lesser extent, are plainly better. Ultimately, this Pokemon failed its concept entirely. I could see updates increasing the amount of "risk" taken when using this Pokemon, as currently it is just a very strong Pokemon whose only disadvantages are its poor defensive typing and four moveslot syndrome.

Plasmanta's concept was to have a lasting impact even after it faints, specifically to give Gyarados a better opportunity to set up. While it is an alright partner for Gyarados, this concept is by no means a good representation of Plasmanta's competitive role. Really, it is just a decently fast all-out attacker who rarely ever dissuades its opponent from fainting it. Unfortunately, as this was a pretty iffy concept in the first place (and that's putting it lightly), it will be difficult to pull this Pokemon closer to its original concept.

Krilowatt's concept originally states, "This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time." If we look at Krilowatt where it stands now, it essentially only runs one set (LO All-Out Attacker) and consistently counters the same exact large portion of the metagame. The combination of its lack of "customization" when it comes to coverage moves, plus the vast number of Pokemon it can beat using one set, deem its concept unsuccessful. Once again, I'm not sure how this could be addressed update-wise, but perhaps the introduction of moves like Volt Switch could increase the diversity in Krilowatt's sets.
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
Which 3 CAPs do you believe most fit their concept (metagame role), such that any update either brings them into fullness or makes them look like a Generation 7 Based version of that concept?

Cawmadore
fits very well with its given concept. Belly Drum Cawmadore is still its most reliable set, and Belly Drum is still the largest factor to its success, which aligns nicely with its concept. Colossoil has also fufilled its concept with flying colors. While the burn nerf encourages a Guts set, it has constantly been able to stop the secondary with Rebound, Rapid Spin, and Guts over the generations. Finally, Mollux is only getting closer to its concept with time, as the introduction of Fairies has increased its power in CAP. Poison typing is a blessing in the current metagame, and adds to Mollux's tankiness against increasingly common threats such as Kerf and the Tapus.
 
Which 3 CAPs do you believe most fit their concept?

Cawmodore fits its concept quite well due to its consistent capability to utilize Belly Drum and sweep. Even with Lele's access to automatic Psychic Terrain, Cawmodore still succeeds at sweeping. Mollux is only getting better, since Fairies like Kerfluffle and the tapu run rampant in CAP. One can say he's only gotten better. Cyclohm has simply remained a beast since Gen 4, so there's little need for change in the cloud dragon's capabilities. Despite the aforementioned abundance of offensive Fairy typing (which is borked af), Cyclohm continues to be an amazing tank due to its raw bulk and otherwise nice typing.
 
Which 3 CAPs do you believe most fit their concept (metagame role), such that any update either brings them into fullness or makes them look like a Generation 7 Based version of that concept?

Cawmodore, Stratagem, and Mollux all stick out to me as doing an excellent job at fulfilling their roles. They all still play the role that they were designed to do and are effective in the current metagame. Note that all of these concepts were much more concrete than abstract such as "high risk, high reward", "utility counter", and "affects momentum". I believe we should keep using abstract concepts sometimes just because they make very interesting concepts, but just notice that it is much simpler to create a CAP that fulfills its role from a concrete concept.

I think that the updates would of course still benefit all of these CAPs just by rounding out their flavor, and as you put it, make them look like a Generation 7 version of their concept.

Which 3 CAPs do you believe least fit their concept (metagame role), such that their concept needs active reconsideration (or in some cases establishment)? This is not intended to judge the individual merit of prior concepts, but rather "does this Pokemon perform a role that matches its intent, and if not why not and where should it go consistent with Update Principles?"

I'm just going to have to call out Aurumoth, Krilowatt, and Plasmanta. Aurumoth just gave up at its own concept and got so buried in its own competitive moves that the concept was essentially completely ignored. It is a high reward sweeper that can consistently set up with ease, and has very little risk in using. The amount of versatility in sets allow it to essentially beat any Pokemon depending on how you decide to run it. Dragon Dance, Quiver Dance, Tail Glow, Overheat, Bug Buzz, Ice Beam, Hydro Pump, Thunderbolt, Megahorn, Pyschic, Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, and more.... there's no 'mon that 100% beats it.

Krilowatt was designed to be a utility counter. The exact concept was originally this: "This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time." Note that Krilowatt runs only one set most of the time: Surf, Ice Beam, Earth Power, and Thunderbolt. You might see an occasional Mirror Coat or Heart Swap, but they are absurdly rare and niche. The Pokemon is not customized ever, whatsoever. It sits around countering a large amount of Pokemon at the same time with an absurd amount of good coverage.

I believe the key issue with Krilowatt is that we gave it an outstanding typing, slapped all sorts of coverage on it, and said "alright here, good luck". Additonally, having one genericly good ability doesn't help it whatsoever. For example, if it had been given Heatproof and Volt Absorb as two abilities, that would give it the power to counter two very different sets of opponents. I believe that through ability updates and move updates we can force Krilowatt to choose moves and sets to counter what needs to be countered.

Plasmanta just died somewhat. In my eyes, it had a great concept but a very weak execution. Here is the original concept, word for word:

"Description: A Pokemon that dissuades your opponent from fainting it, or can even leave it's presence on the field felt even after it faints."

Plasmanta fails at this on so many levels. It turned into "Partner to let Gyarados set up" but failed at this in so many ways that I cannot even count. I would have understood if we gave him moves like Future Sight, gave it Hazards, gave it an ability like Aftermath, or literally anything. I feel like with movepool updates, ability updates, and etc will help an incredible amount with making Plasmanta actually follow its concept.
 

reachzero

the pastor of disaster
is a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Which 3 CAPs do you believe most fit their concept (metagame role), such that any update either brings them into fullness or makes them look like a Generation 7 Based version of that concept?

I am optimistic that Aurumoth is actually just a few short steps away from fulfilling its concept. Aurumoth has some clearly dominant points, yes, especially its viciously diverse movepool allowing it to choose what does and doesn't counter it to a ridiculous degree. However, it's typing leaves it vulnerable defensively, its STank is lackluster, and its speed tier is outright bad: being outsped by base 95s is risky considering the quality of the CAP be 95s. Aurumoth is extremely safe to use because Quiver Dance and Illusion mitigate risk to a disgusting extent. Without these two specific elements Aurumoth would be genuinely risky to use.

Necturna is fascinating because it gains a lot from any update, while its concept makes it crazy versatile: Sticky Webs plays totally differently than, say, offensive with Beak Blast or Geomancy. We'll have to choose our update moves very carefully to complement Sketch.

Kitsunoh is a good scout, but it could use a bit more survivability to stay relevant. A few minor tweaks would help a lot.

Which 3 CAPs do you believe least fit their concept (metagame role), such that their concept needs active reconsideration (or in some cases establishment)? This is not intended to judge the individual merit of prior concepts, but rather "does this Pokemon perform a role that matches its intent, and if not why not and where should it go consistent with Update Principle

I think other so far have been correct that Voodoom, Plasmanta, and Volkraken are so far removed from their concepts at this point that there is no true going back. Plasmanta's concept in particular is so far removed from what Plasmanta actually is that it's hard to see the connection unless someone actually explains it to you. The point has been raised that Voodoom can still be spoken of with reference to its "true love", Zapdos, rather than Togekiss, and I think that would be a reasonable path to take.
 

DarkSlay

Guess who's back? Na na na! *breakdances*
is a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Which 3 CAPs do you believe most fit their concept (metagame role), such that any update either brings them into fullness or makes them look like a Generation 7 Based version of that concept?

To me, by far, the most successful Pokemon in the metagame in terms of fitting their concept/meta role has been Mollux. "Successful Pokemon with traditionally bad typing" was done extremely well with it, as while the addition of Fairy-type Pokemon made its typing more useful, it still has some very suspect defensive typing, yet is one of the best Specially Defensive support Pokemon in the tier and is a solid answer to Rain teams. It's probably CAP's most holistic success story, illustrating what happens when the right typing meets the right ability and has the right stats and movepool given to it. It is certainly not the strongest Pokemon in the tier, but it's definitely successful and viable.

Stratagem is an easy target for this category too. "Fast special attacker with unusual typing" isn't a complicated concept, but Stratagem does it admirably and is still successful to this day. 130 Speed is now a common "fast" benchmark in the metagame due to Megas and Tapu Koko, so it should come as no surprise to see Stratagem have similar success for similar reasons. It also has an amazing movepool and two great competitive abilities, which makes it an effective special attacker despite its mono-typing.

Finally, I'll end with another layup and choose Cawmodore. Cawmodore essentially only runs one set with little variance, but that's exactly what we wanted for it when we created it: an effective Belly Drum user. One of the greatest fears of that creation process was seeing Cawmodore do a role outside of Belly Drum, and it looks like we were successful in avoiding that. It is still a great Belly Drum sweeper in the metagame as well, although its success in that role hasn't quite translated to consistent usage yet in Gen VII.

---

Which 3 CAPs do you believe least fit their concept (metagame role), such that their concept needs active reconsideration (or in some cases establishment)? This is not intended to judge the individual merit of prior concepts, but rather "does this Pokemon perform a role that matches its intent, and if not why not and where should it go consistent with Update Principles?"

Plasmanta
is one culprit as a concept that hasn't met its goal at all and needs some sort of concept reassessment discussion during updates. As ironic as this situation is (me critiquing Plasmanta), "Einherjar" just doesn't show itself for Plasmanta at all. While I understand that the concept was shifted to a Perfect Partner-esque design with Gyarados, I don't even think it does this as well as other Pokemon do currently. In the meta, Plasmanta is basically used as a fast Special attacker with no real purpose other than "decent switch-in into Fairy-types and Flying-types". It has most likely not matched its concept because of how its niche is too specific and how it just really doesn't match the goal of Einherjar at all.

Krilowatt is similar to Plasmanta in that it's a fast Special attacker that just ignores what its concept is, Utility Counter. I don't think it's as egregious as Plasmanta's issues, since at least Krilowatt has specific Pokemon it can beat which kind of has something to do with its concept. But as a "Utility Counter", Krilowatt doesn't match at all.

I also want to bring up Naviathan here. I believe Naviathan is a good example of a Pokemon that currently has actual tools to fulfill its concept ("two different boosting options"), and succeeds with one half of its concept, but currently does not succeed with the other half. I think this discussion will heavily focus on making its Physical boosting sets more viable to match its concept goal. This may be through improving its tools on that side or giving Naviathan something to boost its offensive power physically.

NOTE: Voodoom would be an easy pick here, but actually, I think this question doesn't really apply to Voodoom. It may very well still do its concept's goal well. Voodoom's problem is separate, since there's a legitimate question as to its original concept being competitive currently rather than it being properly met.
 

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