CAP Updates: Naviathan Discussion (Complete)

[boxofkangaroos]

Ability discussion for Naviathan will run until Saturday at 9:00 PM EST. Until then, I want to see discussion and opinions on some less-discussed abilities such as Strong Jaw, Heavy Metal, and any others that work towards our goal of boosting Dragon Dance Naviathan's power.

 

[Menshay]

Steelworker, as we know, boosts the power of Steel type moves by 50%. This gives Navi an effective 120 base power Iron Head, really strong STAB at +1.

This applies to Flash Cannon too, though.

 

[G-Luke]

Calm Mind sets generally dont utilize Flash Cannon, but I understand what you are getting at.

 

[Puppet Knight]

I know that everyone wants to build around DD and CM, and I hear that this might be anti-concept but.. I wouldn't mind seeing Naviathan getting swift swim along with hone claws or coil. Steelworker is another good ability it could get. I just think it'd be neat to see 100% accuracy iron tail along with some other things. Like maybe it getting Aqua tail for better water stab on physical sets.

 

[Trox]

I know that everyone wants to build around DD and CM, and I hear that this might be anti-concept but.. I wouldn't mind seeing Naviathan getting swift swim along with hone claws or coil. Steelworker is another good ability it could get. I just think it'd be neat to see 100% accuracy iron tail along with some other things. Like maybe it getting Aqua tail for better water stab on physical sets.

Everyone wants to build around DD and CM, because these Setup moves are the concept of this CAP.
Changing the setup moves would go against the Update Principles big time.

 

[Agile Turtle]

Well it is past 9pm, but I'm just gonna say Guts is entirely pro concept for Naviathan, it makes it stand out among other DDancers and as mentioned before keeps it immune to status while also giving it the power it needs to be usable. Other abilities like Sheer Force also give it power and synergize well with Naviathan's bulk by negating LO recoil, but Sheer Force also makes Naviathan encroach on Feraligatr's territory. Mold Breaker makes it encroach on Mega Gyrados' territory, but in this case Naviathan is the worse option due to its lower power and no intimidate to help it set up. Adaptability makes it Encroach on Crawdaunt's. You could even argue that Tough Claws somewhat encroaches on Charizard X's territory, or that Strong Jaw makes it encroach on Tryantrum's territory (even though Naviathan does not share a type or use the same coverage as either of them, and Charizard cannot carry an item). While many of these may not exactly be viable in the current CAP meta, or might be a bit of a stretch as a comparison, at least you can say that with Guts, Naviathan remains unique, and does not overlap with other Dragon Dance users (unless you count Larvitar lol). Part of our goal in making DDance Naviathan a good option for a team was not to make it a generically powerful set up sweeper, but instead to give it a niche that makes it a viable option even when more powerful dragon dancers are available. Guts let's it keep it's niche that other DDancers don't have by giving it an immunity to status.

 

[boxofkangaroos]

It is indeed past 9 PM, and that means Ability Discussion is coming to a close. Due to a lack of support of other abilities and a general consensus that they succeed in working towards our goal, Guts and Tough Claws will move on to the poll. These two abilities have similar resulting effects, but Guts allows Naviathan to absorb status conditions while Tough Claws allows for freedom of held item. Voters should be aware that, when paired with Life Orb, Tough Claws provides a larger Attack boost than Guts. Of course, you also have the option to vote for No Change, and have Naviathan keep the abilities that it currently has. So, the ballot will be as follows:

Guts
Tough Claws
No Change

Note that, if a new ability is chosen, it will replace Water Veil.

The poll will take place in a separate thread, so please don't post your votes here.

Tagging sparktrain for approval.

 

[sparktrain]

Looks good to me boxofkangaroos

 

[boxofkangaroos]

The poll has started!

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cap-updates-naviathan-ability-poll.3598733/#post-7277578

 

[boxofkangaroos]

So, as you all should know, Guts is the winner of the poll, meaning that Naviathan's new set of abilities is Guts, Heatproof, and Light Metal. Hooray!

Now this brings us to Competitive Move Discussion. We have identified that one of Naviathan's main pitfalls is its lackluster coverage, so this step of the Update process aims to improve that. This discussion will take place in the form of Moveset Submissions, akin to the Moveset Discussion in the standard CAP process. This means the discussion will be much stricter — one-liners, posts only made to suggest a coverage move, or any other posts lacking content will be subject to moderation. Movesets should be posted in the following format:
Moveset Submission

Name: Choice Band
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Sucker Punch
Move 3: U-turn
Move 4: Stone Edge
Ability: Guts
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Because of CAP X's Fire typing, Flare Blitz does a lot of damage.
• Sucker Punch allows it priority, as well as the ability to handle Slowking.
• Stone Edge allows it to OHKO Talonflame.
• U-Turn can be used to scout, as well as abuse predicted switches.
• Choice Band is used to amplify damage, and fulfill CAP X's role as a wallbreaker
• In case CAP X gets hit by status conditions, Guts raises its damage output to even higher levels.

In order to equally assess all of Naviathan's sets, I encourage discussion on both Calm Mind and Dragon Dance sets. The Calm Mind set will likely remain the same as before, while the Dragon Dance set is where we'll see more changes. For reference, here are the standard sets Naviathan has run prior to the updates.

Calm Mind

Name: Calm Mind
Move 1: Scald
Move 2: Calm Mind
Move 3: Slack Off
Move 4: Taunt / Hidden Power Ground
Ability: Heatproof
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA

Dragon Dance

Name: Dragon Dance
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Waterfall
Move 3: Iron Head / Wild Charge
Move 4: Wild Charge / Icicle Crash / Drill Peck
Ability: Water Veil / Heatproof
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def / 240 Spe

Remember, new moves can only be suggested if they are a part of a whole moveset, so don't go making posts just to propose a new coverage move. Any new moves must be accompanied with thorough explanation and accurate, current, relevant calcs to support them. Your ability to provide relevant calcs reflects your experience and knowledge of the metagame, so it is of utmost importance to include them in your post.

Think before you propose a new coverage move. Coverage is a powerful tool on any Pokemon, and we want to make sure Naviathan's coverage is not too good for the metagame. Also, don't forget to take Guts into account in your calcs! You may assume Flame Orb in most cases.

 

[Mova]

I attempted to calculate a DD set, so here I go:

Name: Dragon Dance... with Kamen Moxie GUTS!
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Waterfall
Move 3: Iron Head
Move 4: Wild Charge / Icicle Crash
Ability: Guts
Item: Flame Orb
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe

VS Physically Defensive Tomohawk:
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Guts Naviathan Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 395-465 (95.4 - 112.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Guts Naviathan Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 395-465 (95.4 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Guts Naviathan Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 265-312 (64 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

From what I've looked at, Naviathan can 2HKO Gyarados with Flynium Z using Waterfall or Iron Head after a single Dragon Dance boost. Naviathan will become a beast once these changes are implemented. Tomohawk was overkilled, in case you couldn't tell. The only relevant thing Navi has to watch out for might be Tapu Koko at this point, since the chicken is faster and deals Electric Terrain-boosted damage, and burn withers Naviathan down gradually.

 

[Okamu]

VS Physically Defensive Tomohawk:
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Guts Naviathan Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 395-465 (95.4 - 112.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Guts Naviathan Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 395-465 (95.4 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Guts Naviathan Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 265-312 (64 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I really hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you accidentally appear to have used the wrong orb. Life Orb + Guts instead of Flame Orb + Guts makes a good deal of difference here. Here's some updated calcs for you:

+1 252 Atk Guts Naviathan Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 304-358 (73.4 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Doesn't change for SR or no SR, it's still a guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Guts Naviathan Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 204-240 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

In all likelihood, Tomohawk is still going to be beating Naviathan down with Auru Sphere/Focus Blast if it's attacking, or just stalling out the burn with Haze + Roost combos. For those interested, Waterfall and Iron Head do the same:

252 Atk Guts Naviathan Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 135-159 (32.6 - 38.4%) -- 1.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Deck Knight]

As the Dragon Dance set was the primary focus of this update's concern, I present to you a newly buffed up Dragon Dance set:

Name: GUTSy Dragon Dance
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Liquidation
Move 3: Wild Charge
Move 4: Psychic Fangs / Icicle Crash
Ability: Guts
Item: Flame Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Dragon Dance gives the set its name. Flame Orb to Activate Guts.
• Liquidation for STAB and a defense lowering effect that enables multiple defense breaking scenarios.
• Wild Charge for bulky waters such as (Mega) Slowbro.
• Psychic Fangs breaks screens and dissuades defensive Poison types like Mega Venusaur from switching in as well as threatening Fighting types.
• As a grounded Pokemon with both Psychic and Electric Moves, Naviathan plays well on teams with Tapu Koko or Tapu Lele either as a teammate or a threat to opposing teams that effectively boosted its coverage moves.
• Icicle Crash can be used over Psychic Fangs to address Malaconda and guarantee a OHKO on Scarf Landorus-T, however it makes the set fare poorly against Mega Venusaur, Scarf Mollux, and Scarf Plasmanta and worsens the matchup against Tomohawk because it gains neutrality to Ice on Roost.
• Max Atk and Spe to outrun anything slower.

During Naviathan's original thread there was a great deal of discussion over which coverage moves should make it on the DD set to ensure it was not too powerful. As it turns out, translated into CAP Power was a huge issue with Naviathan. Pokemon specifically mentioned as troublesome for Psychic coverage were Mega Sableye and Mandibuzz, whose Foul Play now threatens Naviathan even more. These additions neatly address Naviathan's cheif problems in CAP while still leaving it checked by Bulky Grass types and having several unfavorable neutral scenarios. Waterfall is replaced by Liquidation because the higher base power and defense lowering RNG effect can assist Naviathan is scoring further KOs.

Psychic Fangs is a new move in Gen 7 that will help Naviathan further distinguish itself from ZardX and Z-Fly Gyarados by removing opposing Screens from the field. This gives Naviathan a further option against Hyper Offense playstyles that set up screens and attempt to boost from behind them. It also gives Naviathan coverage against some of CAPs strongest offensive and defensive threats without giving it coverage for every threat.

A few calculations:

Tomohawk:

252 Atk Guts Naviathan Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 192-226 (46.3 - 54.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Guts Naviathan Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 286-338 (69 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Tomohawk Aura Sphere vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Naviathan: 276-326 (76.8 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

After Tomohawk Hazes, Psychic Fangs can still score a 2HKO, especially if rocks were down when Tomohawk came in. Tomohawk is still a very viable check though, as you can see from its Aura Sphere damage output. Focus Blast OHKOs Naviathan outright.

- - -
Mollux:

+1 252 Atk Guts Naviathan Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 432-510 (130.5 - 154%) -- guaranteed OHKO

GG Resist Snail

- - -
Tapu Lele:

+1 252 Atk Guts Naviathan Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 349-412 (124.1 - 146.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Thx for Psychic Terrain much appreciate.
- - -
Plasmanta:

252 Atk Guts Naviathan Psychic Fangs vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Plasmanta: 214-252 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Plasmanta Thunderbolt vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Naviathan: 422-498 (117.5 - 138.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Scarf Plasmanta remains a good check to Naviathan with Psychic Fangs, but it cannot switch in with Spikes or Stealth Rock down as Psychic Fangs will often KO it from there.

- - -
Skarmory and Mandibuzz
+1 252 Atk Guts Naviathan Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 148-175 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Guts Naviathan Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 159-187 (47.6 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Guts Naviathan Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 106-126 (31.7 - 37.7%) -- 91.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Naviathan Wild Charge vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 224-264 (67 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Guts Naviathan Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 135-159 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Naviathan Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 142-168 (33.5 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Guts Naviathan Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 142-168 (33.5 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Naviathan Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 202-238 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Naviathan Wild Charge vs. -1 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 302-356 (71.3 - 84.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Comparison of Waterfall and Liquidation on Skarmory and Mandibuzz reveals that Liquidation can 2HKO even without SR (Max Damage >54%), Waterfall cannot. Additionally, if Liquidation's defense lowering effect activates, Wild Charge follows up with a KO. Waterfall's effect was irrelevant when Skarmory or Mandibuzz switched in. In short, this set gives 2 scenarios where Skarmory or Mandibuzz must be wary of a switch. They cannot do so after Naviathan has already set up, and Naviathan can opt for a break attempt by selecting Liquidation first over Dragon Dance.

- - -
252 Atk Guts Naviathan Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Unaware Clefable: 220-261 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Guts Naviathan Wild Charge vs. -1 200 HP / 0 Def Unaware Arghonaut: 410-484 (102.2 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Guts Naviathan Psychic Fangs vs. -1 200 HP / 0 Def Unaware Arghonaut: 388-458 (96.7 - 114.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Lack of Steel STAB is no impediment to breaking through Clefable, and Arghonaut does not want to switch in on any of Naviathan's attacking moves, as Unaware will not protect it from a Liquidation stat drop.

- - -

Note this set is not without counters. Ferrothorn and Malaconda decisively counter this Naviathan set if they have Power Whip. Scarf Plasmanta was already noted as an excellent check. Scarf Tapu Koko operates similarly, as well as Scarf Pheremosa. Intimidate Gyarados -> Mega Gyarados w/ Earthquake results in a 1 for 1 scenario. Mega Charizard X wins neutral scenarios where both must set up. Tomohawk wins neutral scenarios entirely.

Additionally Rocks support is vital to netting the set many of its best defense breaking scenarios, so Naviathan does not sweep on its lonesome even with these updates / upgrades.

 

[david0895]

Naviathan needs something to deal with Mollux and Electric types, so I suggest Earthquake

Name: Hi Mollux/Plasmanta
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Waterfall
Move 3: Iron Head
Move 4: Earthquake
Ability: Guts
Item: Flame Orb
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe

252 Atk Naviathan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 452-536 (114.7 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Naviathan Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Plasmanta: 336-396 (128.2 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Naviathan Earthquake vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 344-408 (109.9 - 130.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Guts Naviathan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 188-222 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Guts Naviathan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 280-330 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also there's some Electric that can avoid this move like Zapdos or Rotom-Wash, but hitting some of them is a good score

 

[NumberCruncher]

Name: Do, do, do you have it GUTS!
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Liquidation
Move 3: Wild Charge
Move 4: Stomping Tantrum
Ability: Guts
Item: Flame Orb
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe
Nature: Jolly

252 Atk Naviathan Stomping Tantrum vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 340-404 (86.2 - 102.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Guts Naviathan Stomping Tantrum vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 512-604 (129.9 - 153.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Naviathan Stomping Tantrum vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Plasmanta: 252-300 (96.1 - 114.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Guts Naviathan Stomping Tantrum vs. 252 HP / 154+ Def Plasmanta: 300-356 (92.5 - 109.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Naviathan doesn't actually need Earthquake, since most of his relevant calcs rely on Stealth Rocks being up anyway, and at that that point Stomping does enough. It makes it slightly worse against Cyclohm, but as you can see ...

4 SpA Cyclohm Discharge vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Naviathan: 270-320 (75.2 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

... it's probably getting forced out anyway. Especially since they can use Slack Off to use your burn to get into range.

The 212 in Speed is because Volcarona and Aurumoth are usually set at 310 speed so they can outspeed Scarf Lando after a Quiver, and I frankly don't want to play with Speed ties against them.

As pointed out by Deck Knight, Liquidation has a far more relevant effect, and actually helps break really stally mons.

 

[jas61292]

I'm totally not sold at all on Liquidation here. This is not like Scald or Surf or whatever where water types simply get it and we should just assume Naviathan should have it via consistency update. Liquidation is actually a very rare move (only on a few aquatic invertebrates), and we really should have some good competitive reasoning for it if we are to give it out when it already has a solid option. And so far, I find the arguments for it incredibly weak and unfounded.

Yes, it is technically a stronger move than Waterfall, but the difference is minuscule, and I don't think it really is something that makes a difference in practice. Deck brought up two examples where it theoretically makes a difference, but both are frankly irrelevant, as they are very specific situations, against Pokemon where Naviathan will likely have a better coverage move to use than its STAB anyways. Not to mention that you will never get two hits in if you get Phased, which is possible in both example cases.

What's more, I actually would argue that the secondary effect of Liquidation is less in line with what we want from it than Waterfall's. DD Naviathan is the sweeper, while CM Naviathan is the wallbreaker/stallbreaker. Liquidation helps break walls more than it does anything for sweeping. I'm sure everyone has had an experience with something like a Gyarados where you are weakened, will likely die to one more hit, and the Pokemon your opponent sent in can be 2HKOd, but not OHKOd, yet you beat it and continue to sweep due to a flinch. That is sweeping, and that is what we should be wanting Naviathan to do.

Now, I'm not saying that Liquidation is necessarily ridiculous to give. However, I have yet to see any good reasons why it is a useful addition, and giving it out just because it might be a slight power boost is not what we want to do with our updates.

 

[Deck Knight]

Breaking two walls that commonly stop sweeps (one with the small power boost over Waterfall alone) is prima facie evidence of Liquidation being a useful addition. Walls stop sweeps. Sweepers that can overcome walls utilzing 2 of their moves instead of one are good sweepers, therefore, an attack which helps you bust walls to begin a sweep is a useful addition.

Speaking of stopping walls, may I present to you a second take on Dragon Dance:

Name: BULKy Dragon Dance
Move 1: Substitute
Move 2: Dragon Dance
Move 3: Heavy Slam / Iron Head
Move 4: Taunt
Ability: Heatproof
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 232 HP / 236 Atk / 40 Spe
Nature: Adamant

• With access to 101HP Substitutes, Naviathan is the bane of many slow but sure Stall Pokemon.
• Dragon Dance allows Naviathan to boost behind Sub, and its natural resistance to Sound moves ensure it stays alive and well.
• Heavy Slam provides Naviathan a large power boost over Iron Head against most targets, but is less consistent against some of the heavier Pokemon found on Stall. Iron Head's 30% flinch chance also works well with Dragon Dance.
• Taunt shuts down opponent attempts to lay hazards, phaze away Naviathan, or otherwise prevent its slow but sure sweep.
• Heatproof's fire resistance works well with Substitute, and it also reduces incidental burns should they happen below Leftovers Recovery. Guts could be used against incidental burns for a massive power boost, but is unreliable especially on a Substitute set.
• 40 Spe EVs allows Naviathan to outrun Neutral Base 70 threats and uninvested Base 100s.

Notably, Naviathan can access this set right now (aside from Heavy Slam), so why suggest it? With its more offensive Dragon Dance set getting a major boost, a Bulky Set has more room to surprise opponents and share some of the CM sets Stallbreaking roll for different types of teams.

Interestingly, despite its Weight boost Mega Sableye is still within 2HKO range at +1:
+1 236+ Atk Naviathan Heavy Slam (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO

 

[Airwind]

Name: La Danza del dragón eléctrico
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Wild Charge
Move 3: Earthquake
Move 4: Iron head/waterfall
Ability: Guts
Item: Electrium Z
EVs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spe
Nature: Admant

252+ Atk Naviathan Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 288-340 (69.5 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Naviathan Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 430-508 (103.8 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Naviathan Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 302-356 (99.3 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Naviathan Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 202-238 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Naviathan Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Plasmanta: 368-436 (140.4 - 166.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Naviathan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 496-588 (149.8 - 177.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Naviathan Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 316-374 (94.6 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

With eartquake and wild charge is a monster, Earthquake for the electric type who kill naviathan and wildcharge for the most stronger wall in the metageme such as skarmory, tomhawk, toxapex,

Iron head for or watterfall are for the stab move but imo is more usefull iron head beacuse is the only move what kill fairy mons

And if gets burn kill all expect ferrothorn and the other grass wall

 

[Deck Knight]

I think now would be a good time to discuss what checks and counters we're going for with Naviathan. One of the arguments brought up earlier was that Naviathan competes with ZardX and Z-Gyara, both Pokemon that have moves that can address Cyclohm. Should Cyclohm be able to counter Naviathan? That decision has a lot of impact on our coverage choices, as Earthquake is basically necessary to remove Cyclohm as a hard counter (Guts EQ 2HKOs a majority of the time after rocks).

 

[Drapionswing]

Name: Big Boy Boat
Move 1: Heavy Slam
Move 2: Wild Charge
Move 3: Icicle Crash
Move 4: Dragon Dance
Ability: Guts
Item: Flame Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

252 Atk Guts Naviathan Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 202-238 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Naviathan Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 158-188 (37.6 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Naviathan Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 153-180 (46.2 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
-1 252 Atk Guts Naviathan Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 360-424 (112.8 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Guts Naviathan Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Rotom-Wash: 90-107 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- 24.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Guts Naviathan Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 228-269 (68.8 - 81.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Guts Naviathan Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Plasmanta: 159-188 (60.6 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Guts Naviathan Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 238-282 (56.6 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Guts Naviathan Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Rotom-Wash: 136-160 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Heavy Slam provides a powerful STAB move for naviathan, letting it really pressure pokemon that aren't resisted like tomohawk, and surprisingly doing a lot of damage to mollux. I don't find water stab at all necessary on this set as bolt beam is doing just enough damage. Water coverage only makes you miss out on hitting things like Metagross so it's still an option. If we do go heavy slam then I see no reason to add any other coverage option (EQ, psychic fangs etc.)

 

[Garbagery]

Name: where is our clam minds
Move 1: earth power/taunt/hurricane
Move 2: scald/hydro pump
Move 3: slack off
Move 4: calm mind
Ability: Heatproof
Item: Leftovers/Flynium z
EVs: 252 hp/ 252 def/ 4 spa
Nature: Bold

well naviathan was always intended to have calm mind AND ddance. Welp so just the regular calm mind set, with the added earth power I guess. Hydro pump to actually hit things because its kinda weak even with a plus one boost. Hurricanes just solely if you don't care about molluxes and realy detest the bulky grass. z hurricane is to ohko the venu and the like if thats what you want.


+1 4 SpA Naviathan Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 356-420 (92.2 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+1 4 SpA Naviathan Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 148-175 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- 92.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (I mean it's kind of a wincon so why would you use it when tomo is alive
+1 4 SpA Naviathan Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Plasmanta: 380-448 (145 - 170.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 4 SpA Naviathan Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Plasmanta: 380-448 (145 - 170.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[nyttyn]

keep in mind earthquake completely removes Magnezone as a check to Navithan - Ice Hammer accomplishes the same goal as Earthquake in 2hkoing Cyclohym (at a minor 10% accuracy cost) and dealing with Plasmata (2hko instead of OHKO), but does not remove Magnezone as a check. EQ also nails Mollux without needing Heavy Slam, but I'm wondering if it's not the better route to simply give Naviathan more power on its primary STAB and Ice Hammer to crush Clyclohym. I can't help but be worired that giving Naviathan EQ allows DD to deal with too much on a single set - it manhandles Magnezone, Mollux, Cyclohym, Metagross, Plasmata (turns it into a OHKO) and more all with a single move.


im crying inside about the heavy slam recs :(

 

[G-Luke]

Name: Guts n Glory (Dual STAB DDance)
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Liquidation
Move 3: Heavy Slam / Iron Head
Move 4: Wild Charge / Icicle Crash
Ability: Guts
Item: Flame Orb
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Personally, I disagree with jas61292's claim that Liquidation isnt suitable. While the power difference is not very noticable, the secondary effect is. Navi already has Iron Head if one chooses to go with the Flinch route (its flinch chance is better actually), and the defense drop can be quite useful for sweeping, as a check at +1 Attack probably wont be one at +2 (regarding defense drop) and is useful in midgame too to punish switches. That promotes variety and makes Navi more flexible throughout the game. Now to the set at hand.

• Guts is the ability choosen, and combined with Flame Orb, makes Navi hit like a cruise ship.
• Dragon Dance is the crux of the set, allowing Navi to simlutaneously boost its power and speed in one turn, allowing it to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame.
• Liquidation is a reliable Water STAB attack with a nifty chance of lowering the opponent's defence, making it harder to check and very spammable.
• The choice between Heavy Slam and Iron Head lies between power and consistency. Heavy Slam normally ranges from being a powerful 120 base power option to a notable 80 base power attack. Iron Head has a stable 80 bade power, and comes with a sometimes gamechanging 30% flinch chance. However in most cases, Heavy Slam is the superior option as most things heavy enough to severly weaken it are hit harder by other attacking options regardless.
• Wild Charge can be run to threaten bulky water types, which walls the set otherwise. Icicle Crash can be run to threaten Dragon types, especially Cyclothm, and Landorus-T.

Most calcs have been shown, but let me drop this rather major one here

+1 252 Atk Guts Naviathan Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 228-269 (68.8 - 81.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I also support Deck Knight's sets (Psychic Fangs look lovely) but Dual STAB sets havent been shown or fleshed out well enough yet.

 

[boxofkangaroos]

Great discussion and submissions everyone! In order to keep the conversation moving, I do want to focus in on a few moves that have been mentioned in a lot of moveset submissions so far.

Heavy Slam - Would this move be chosen over Iron Head, or would Iron Head be preferred due to reliability? Are there any major KOs that Heavy Slam can achieve but Iron Head cannot? Do we want Naviathan to be able to achieve these KOs? Calcs are extremely important here.

Liquidation - Does the small boost in power allow Naviathan to beat Pokemon that it otherwise could not? Is this move necessary towards achieving our goal of boosting Naviathan's power, or would it be more of a Consistency Update than anything?

Ground or Psychic Coverage - Do we want Naviathan to beat Pokemon such as Mollux and Plasmanta, or does the power boost from Guts already make Naviathan a big enough threat that we should keep these Pokemon as counters?

Please carry on with discussion with these questions in mind. I apologize for my slight inactivity lately - I've been away from home, but I have still followed the discussion carefully.

 

[Reviloja753]

In regards to coverage, I say we give Navi either Ground or Psychic coverage, and if we do, it shouldn't be something too strong. The move I'm moves in favor of is Psychic Fangs, as it is decent coverage while not being too broken and gives Navi a new niche as a screen destroyer.