CAP 3D Modeling Project

QxC4eva

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QxC4eva:

I really like this current style for Mollux, though I would tone down the yellow glow a bit (the 0% images look great in my opinion).
The shine on the glass lamp is also a nice touch.
Thank you! :D The glow is there to match the gen 6 color style. I think people like 0% because it looks dark, saturated, and sharp. Unfortunately pokemon renders are pale, washed out, and low contrast. I can do a heaps better render but it won't blend in with the official ones :( If anyone has ideas how to improve it (without upsetting style) that would be nice. And hopefully gen 7+ pokemon will use better shaders >.<


How does one get into 3D design? I don't even know where to start.
Look at video tuts, read some books or articles, and play around with the software (I suggest Blender if you're an artist, or Maya if you're a programmer).


I like the elbow collapsing to follow the movement of Fidgit's hands, but the inorganic idea of a tinkertoy could work as well. I wonder how the inorganic feel would look, though.
I think both A and B are extremes. Here's the "inorganic idea" as coined by our fidgitologist FriesforNapkins! Think of it like a TOILET PUMP

Quanyails idk what's ribbon arms, what is it? :P


(QxC4eva, is it possible to use the file listed here for general Pokemon-style rendering in Maya?)
Yup! Isn't that pretty much what you did to render Plasmanta and Aurumoth? If you can process images with javascript, I can give you pseudocode to composite outlines onto the render, and not have to use Maya's one.

Also you said you're not doing an idle :P
cheeky
 
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DougJustDoug

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The "squishy" joints just don't seem to fit with Fidgit. I think the joints are always round and the limbs are just magically connected to the surface (localized gravity manipulation? works for me) and can move in all directions. I thought your B looked just fine:



Seemingly impossible ball-like arm/joint connections are not unheard of in Pokemon:



Although, I doubt Regirock's arms have the fully pivoting range of motion that we would expect for Fidgit. But regardless of precedent, I think Fidgit's joints should be rigid spheres, even if that makes them look inorganic.
 
Oh man, I still don't have my own thoughts 100% percent straight, but uh, just a few quick large (sorry) interjections:

Quanyails said:
I like the rigid Tinkertoys skin, as I don't see Fidgit's joints as squishy. I'd think that Cartoons! makes Fidgit's joints animate because, well, it's a sketch animation and it's made to look lively. Are there any pictures of Fidgit's joints really deforming while bending?
Eh, I disagree, but the problem in disagreeing in this particular instance, is that it's a matter of opinion rather than evidence. So, first off, no there isn't any art where Fidgit's joints way deform, that's just the case. My reason for having a differing opinion though, boils down to a few things; the first (and most prominent) is that I disagree that you can discount how something moves in an animation because it's being made to look lively. Yes it's a sketchier animation style, and every frame isn't necessarily a painting like is usually the case with animation, but that things like Fidge's joints bending were oversights on Cartoons's part, I don't really buy that. In 2-D animation, no matter how quick or unpleasant looking the end product is, there's thought put into every frame, that's just a nature of the trade. So, subjectively, I disagree there. (Small extra point I just thought to mention, Cartoons current avatar is another animation, and I'm sure he's made more other places. The 'mons in those don't do any crazy shape 'tweens, they move like they should in a consistent animation. It's my belief Fidgit does as well.)

Oh and, even though this is a less solid point imo, the supporting art shows inconsistencies in the shape of both Fidgit's elbow balls and leg thingeys, so I would honestly be confused if they were supposed to be made of a hard material, or a rigid one at least.


DougJustDoug said:
The "squishy" joints just don't seem to fit with Fidgit. I think the joints are always round and the limbs are just magically connected to the surface (localized gravity manipulation? works for me) and can move in all directions... ...But regardless of precedent, I think Fidgit's joints should be rigid spheres, even if that makes them look inorganic.
See... To be entirely honest, I kinda like this viewpoint as well, if only because it's the simplest way to make animating Fidgit work. That aside, I think there's some definite problems with this line of thinking too. The most important in my eyes, is the example of Regirock. I'm not faulting you Doug, or saying that's a bad example in this circumstance or anything, I think it illustrates your point well. I do think it's also a bit contradictory however: Regirock, is quite literally a reanimated pile or rocks held together by magical forces, based off of the mythological golem. It's literal point is to be a messy, inanimate, hunk of stone. I don't think that Fidgit is supposed to be either a robot, or a psychic creature capable of having nonsense limbs, that just doesn't make as much sense to me. Even though there's still gray boundaries all over the place in regards to what Fidgit is "actually supposed to be", it being some sort of bug-like, organic creature makes much more sense considering things like the typing, than if it were some sort of tinkertoy creature in my opinion. Oh uh, to go back a few steps too, even when Regirock's joints move, (although it doesn't make sense for them to move to begin with) it's animations are all still anatomically correct. His arm never smashes in a weird direction or anything. In my mind, if you have Fidgit's joints be magnetically connected (which is the only way I can really think to interpret that), I feel like it would be as strange as if the Gamefreak devs made Tentacruel's tentacles out of spaghetti. I just don't think it makes sense if you look at pokemon, like somewhat flawed, but still working living creatures.

Anyway, sorry for the 'rant', there's still nothing objectively I can disprove about that line of thinking either. Those are some thoughts as to why I'm opposed the idea of "no-sense limbs" though, I guess.

QxC4eva said:
Look at video tuts, read some books or articles, and play around with the software (I suggest Blender if you're an artist, or Maya if you're a programmer).
(Small aside in a giant post of logic talk, but I'm just gonna put that information in my back pocket and save it for the second I get the time to understand blender better...)

QxC4eva said:
I think both A and B are extremes. Here's the "inorganic idea" as coined by our fidgitologist FriesforNapkins! Think of it like a TOILET PUMP
OKAY, MORE SERIOUS TALK. Alright but, this is where the difficult part for me comes in because I still don't have my thoughts on this all composed quite yet... I guess I'll just say this to start: QxC4eva. You are a very cool person for even hearing my bs fidgitology out to begin with and also for doing crazy 3D modelling work. Seriously, thank you. But, uh, I don't think A, B, or C look quite like what I was thinking of to be entirely honest, here's objectively why; the one conclusion I've come to about this, is that the glands (assuming they are glands) should not not move like glands but like elbows. How does this view make any sense? ...Still working on that one, but, the real world example I'm going off of for now is the Siamang Gibbon, and/or any animal with a throat/gular/vocal sac. It's the closest comparison I can draw to Fidgit's wonky elbow situation, and even though them monkeys don't got a joint in their terrifying pelican throats, the glands should function sort of similarly is my thinking...? So, in short, real world animals with that gland, inflate it for whatever purposes they use it for, and then it's deflated the rest of the time so it doesn't pop or w/e. I imagine Fidgit's joints working in a sort of similar way. The A & C examples you gave make sense if the glands are fully inflated when it moves, but I'm starting to think it's more likely that the glands would act more like a half-inflated extra layer of skin than like a bubble. Just a thought, still composing some ideas regarding all of this, sorry for all the hassle but most importantly this crazy long post, aaaa.
 

QxC4eva

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That sounds good FriesforNapkins, looking forward to seeing your new theory!

The "squishy" joints just don't seem to fit with Fidgit. I think the joints are always round and the limbs are just magically connected to the surface (localized gravity manipulation? works for me) and can move in all directions. I thought your B looked just fine:



Seemingly impossible ball-like arm/joint connections are not unheard of in Pokemon:



Although, I doubt Regirock's arms have the fully pivoting range of motion that we would expect for Fidgit. But regardless of precedent, I think Fidgit's joints should be rigid spheres, even if that makes them look inorganic.
Hmm can you explain why they don't fit? The way Cartoons drew it they seem to be squishable, they're not always round and can pulse when he does a poison attack. So I don't think they're rock hard :P
Check out 0:18 and 4:04-5:15 of this Fidgit (and most other caps!) BatCAP
Each time the elbow angle changes, I can also see the spheres changing shape a bit.
Now here's what ABC looks like in pokemon style:



Do note I'm moving it from 0 to 135° flexion (that's way past his full range of motion) so it won't ever get more exaggerated than that! :P If I move the cylinder on the left too, both will only need to go up to about half (67.5°) to get this ROM... and for most animation, I reckon they'll stay within an even shorter range:

C:


So I guess given the low ROM, they all work for idle animation, but C is the "most correct" for other stuff like attack sequences and bigger renders.
 
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Quanyails

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Does anyone else see Fidgit's elbows as some sort of ball-and-socket joint? o3o Here's a visualization I pulled off from here.



FriesforNapkins I'm not seeing the deformities you're mentioning in the sketches, although I admit that upon reviewing Cartoons!'s animation, that swelling looks intentional. In all other cases, though, it doesn't seem stretchy. Flexible to an extent, maybe, but I don't see it moving while bending.

QxC4eva: It seems that in more modern rigs, ribbon rigs have been superseded by IK spline rigs. I just mean noodle arms or bendy arms or whatever else you want to call them. This. :P



Edit: Oh yeah, regarding that idle loop--a flying animation is a bit more complex than something like a single pose and swaying around a little. I see how I misled you. :/
 
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QxC4eva

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That looks like something I saw in bio today, but better. :) :|

Anyway I just read about ribbon rigs! So cool!! It seems like they're good for stuff like bendy arms so you can get better line of action on them in 3D.
Check out this video www.vimeo.com/8680449 at 0:21 O__O so amazing!


EDIT- also 1:08...seems to be another benefit of using that many joints but don't worry, I won't do ribbons on Tomo just yet :9
 
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Quanyails

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All right, time to get these posted. It's mid-semester where I am, so the animation mini-course is done! Here's something I got out of it, with some help from QxC and feedback from Blackdrakon30 and Verrucosity. :)



I have a flappier (2x speed) version of Cawmodore's sprite, as suggested of Reapehify:



Are there any preferences for one or the other? Or, I suppose, if people really want it, I could put Cawmodore on the ground and have it sport fisticuffs. I have the rig set up to do that, although I'm not quite as motivated do it myself, as I have other work. v_v

Here are the files for the mesh/animation only (no render elements). Feel free to delete the curves and locators acting as controllers if they're unwieldy. It was an educational exercise that probably is a bit much for the scope of this project. :P

Edit: Smoothed out the up/down movement some more. This version seemed to get good reception on PS!



Edit 2: Full set of renders:

 
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I really like both but prefer the first one. Both seem a bit choppy though; at the end of flapping its wings, it kinda jolts up a bit to quick for me. :d

EDIT: The third one cannot be improved, in my eyes.
 
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QxC4eva

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Quanyails I think try getting the colors and animation in a good middle ground with other bird mons.



  • I would tone down the color saturation and up the brightness a bit (the shiny's saturation is about right though :) )
  • The toon lines should be brighter color instead of being completely black
  • For the back view I think the light source should be more to the side - either left or right but not above
  • Maybe reduce the up/down motion even more?
  • EDIT: just noticed the right foot's animation is a bit snappy near frame 1
I also think the button texture outlines is a bit choppy. If you can thicken it a bit that be great, but if not that's okay too. :D

Is that a raytraced shadow on his chest?


---
EDIT (03/10): The renders are better but somehow lost the mid-shade of the toon shader. :P
I like the previous pose of the feet more (no overlap is good), so ideally you should have the pose from before but keep the animation smooth like now.
For the back view can you also reduce the bright shade's area on his hat? There's very few bright areas in the other back views.

---
EDIT (03/11): Much better!! It's like he's conducting an orchestra o.o
I'd say it's ready for PS but feel free to fix anything else people suggested. I updated the spreadsheet too. Good job Quany, don't forget shiny~ :D
 
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BP

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Cawmodore's talons seem to be a bit off Perhaps I would try to model them after Pidgeotto.

As you can see its talons are flexed and ready for attack.
Cawmodore's talons aren't quite as ready. One of its Talons is limp and the other one seems to floating behind it. I know this is small changed but I hope It helps!

Ps: I Appologize if you find this Gif to small to compare my bad!
 
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It could just be me but I think that cawmodore's claws shouldn't flap like that :P I think that they should move a like something that is solid not like feathers but again it's up to you Quanyails do what ever you want


Sorry about fidgit just fixing a few things
 

Quanyails

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Quanyails
  • I would tone down the color saturation and up the brightness a bit (the shiny's saturation is about right though :) ) Done.
  • The toon lines should be brighter color instead of being completely black Done.
  • For the back view I think the light source should be more to the side - either left or right but not above Done?
  • Maybe reduce the up/down motion even more? I ended up smoothing it (not so much reducing the amplitude).
  • EDIT: just noticed the right foot's animation is a bit snappy near frame 1 I'm not sure if I fixed this or not.
I also think the button texture outlines is a bit choppy. If you can thicken it a bit that be great, but if not that's okay too. :D Done.

Is that a raytraced shadow on his chest? Yep.
How are these renders?



Updated files here.

Broken Phobias: The talons are meant to be dangling and offset. Cawmodore is more of a bird that uses its wings/hands instead of its talons for its attacks.

KrazyCake: I thought about it, but I figured it'd look kind of weird having stiff fingers in the wing flap animation. :T

Oh, yeah, DJTHED, I'd say you can animate Mollux if you'd like.
 
So after seeing Cawmo next to all those other birds, something about the way the back-feathers/coattails/tail moves feels kinda off to me. It's very weird as I don't think it should feel off, but it just does. I guess it's just the slight difference throwing me off. Other than that I personally think that the talons could use some adjustment as the pose right now feels really awkward to me, especially the right (left?) dangling one. Just some first impressions/gut feelings. Idk about the slightly jerky movement but it makes a lot of sense considering its body type. Idk idk really.
 
If Cawmodore is depicted flying, just like other avian Pokémon, how would Tomohawk be animated? Would Tomohawk fly alongside the fellow birds that he's trying to mimic, or would he stand on the ground, trying to be as proud and intimidating as Hawlucha?

Nice Caw animations there, though.
 

Quanyails

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  • For the back view I think the light source should be more to the side - either left or right but not above I angled the light source to the left (front)/right (back).
Is that a raytraced shadow on his chest? Fixed, along with other raytraced shadows.

---
EDIT (03/10): The renders are better but somehow lost the mid-shade of the toon shader. :P Fixed. It was a GIF optimization issue.
I like the previous pose of the feet more (no overlap is good), so ideally you should have the pose from before but keep the animation smooth like now. Is this better?
For the back view can you also reduce the bright shade's area on his hat? There's very few bright areas in the other back views. Done.



Admiraal Aardappel: Could you explain more precisely what seems off with the animations?

Integer Mova: It's ultimately the animator's choice. :P
 

DougJustDoug

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Great work on the Cawmodore animation, Quany! I particularly like the way you make the wings sweep forward with that rounded, circular motion. It sets Cawmodore apart from many other Pokemon bird animations, and looks very natural. All the tweaks you have made to the wings flapping, legs, and up/down movement have really improved the animation a lot.

I do agree the tail looks a little too stiff. It's similar to the issues faced when animating Plasmanta's tail, although I don't think Caw will have quite as whippy a tail as Plasmanta. Perhaps some of the solutions that were applied to Plas can be applied to Caw, to a lesser degree.
 

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I'm no animator, but for me the fact that there's two pieces that are moving exactly in tandem to the exact same level seems a little off to me. Even just tilting one of the tails up and the other down (not even all that much, just enough to make them noticeable) I feel would make it less off putting. I'm not really bothered by the talons, but when compared to the other birds they seem kinda like they're noodles flopping around. All the other birds have their individual talons in around the same location relative to each other throughout the cycle, while Cawmodore's end up flopping basically all the way apart. To me this is very eye catching, which is somewhat ironic since you said that Cawmodore uses its wings instead of talons.

However this isn't meant to detract from what you've made, it's still really amazing.
 
I think that for Tomohawk's animation it would be really cool & cute if he were ground-bound like Hawlucha, but was still flapping his wings as if he wanted to fly but couldn't.
 

Quanyails

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Another day, another render.




I've been getting some varied feedback regarding which direction to go with the animation. I've gotten suggestions for stiffer tail movement and looser, for asymmetrical talons and symmetrical. I can't please everyone. D: This is the version with looser tail movements.

DJTHED: I tried your suggestion on PS! for a more Pokemon-style wing animation. I don't think my attempt looks so well. I'm eyeballing it, for one, so I don't think I'm getting timing perfect. I also think that Cawmodore's anatomy doesn't work well with an exaggerated wing sweep. It has small wings and a big chest, and it makes the downward motion look unnatural (well, even more so than usual).
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun


When I look at the back sprite it kind of looks off when the wing connects and the body is. It looks off the skin moving that much.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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The back render for Caw is losing its outline on the top of the hat... I'm not sure what can be done about it, but just thought I'd mention it. Otherwise I think the model looks great.
 

Quanyails

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I've gotten several comments about the forward movement of the wings, so I've fiddled around with a less realistic version. I went through another round of feedback on PS!, and I ended up blending my old animation and an exaggeratedly flappy new animation at a 20-80 ratio. (I'm awed that you can even just blend animations!) I'm starting to experience gestaltzerfall, though, so I'm gonna have to find a stopping point sometime. x__x





I'll fix up the hat's outline after getting the animation to a part where it can be considered acceptable.
 
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QxC4eva

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I'm just curious, what's the main reason for changing the wing motion to that? If it's anything to do with "fitting the Pokemon animation style" well, I think there being any rules is a myth at best.
I've seen pokemon wings go forward before:



... wings look like they conduct an orchestra:



... and wings that don't go through their full range of motion.

I don't think your first wing animation looked off (if that's what the consensus is). It looks special and more suited to Cawmodore's body type. It looks more like something you animated from scratch, not like some ripped animation slapped onto the model. It's unique without looking off style at all. I hope you'll revert it but that's just my opinion :/

When you get a conflict like this you can't really please everyone anymore. It has to be either this or that - not a bit of this and a bit of that mixed together (unless that happens to look best :P) I think just settle for what YOU think looks best since you're the modeller, and as long as most people are generally happy I think it's fine. For me I'm happy whichever one gets picked but anyway, just a heads up
 

Quanyails

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I think it's because the first set of Pokemon renders used to compare against Cawmodore all had sweeping wing animations, so that difference in animation seemed comparatively prominent. :/

I'd like to finish Cawmodore with this post (with apologies to those who suggested changes), unless I receive a really strong and convincing objection. I can't please everyone. v__v




Here are the model files--again, without the shader/scene. The Maya file has a few variations of the wing animation, as I had originally intended to use a sharper wing animation layer for the render, but that caused some weirder shading on the wings, so I went with my original one.

Think this can go on PS!, Layell?
 

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