CAP 34 - Part 10 - Secondary Ability Discussion

[Brambane]

Mold Breaker eliminates a lot of the nuance in the strategy to chipping down Unaware Pokemon, or putting CAP34 in a scenario where its the last mon standing and muscles through Arghonaut, or just Tera Dragon Clanging Scales to break through. CAP34 already has great tools for picking off defensive Pokemon, and for the tools it does not have, it can and should rely on its team. Mold Breaker also cuts deeper than just Unaware; Multiscale Cresceidon no longer can eat a +2 Sludge to threaten with paralysis, Ting-Lu is easier to put in destruction range, you can run Flamethrower without being completely walled by Heatran (who is 2HKOed by +2 Mold Breaker Flamethrower.)

I am pushing pretty hard for NCA, we were REALLY generous with moveset submission given the overall direction of CAP34 and how it functions as a sweeper, it already has tools to pick some of its checks (Stored Power, Encore, Taunt) or force catch-22s with a move like Destiny Bond. Just let it be with Armor Tail and keep the train on the rails.

 

[Earthflax]

I'll chime in real quick and voice a similar sentiment. NCA is looking to be the correct option and this is especially true due to how good our required moves are with regards to both Water and Fire coverage, utility moves, DKiss + Bond, etc.; there is already more than enough set variance to ensure 34 is not one-dimensional.
(I must also voice somewhat sarcastically how painful this is as a known Opportunist enjoyer. Next process bro trust bro. )

I also agree that if we were to go with a secondary Ability, Mold Breaker would be pretty much the only one that could solidify a decent niche while also not putting this mon over the top. 50/50 abilities are not entirely uncommon on real mons and CAPs, but, granted, are seldom seen on "will end game" sweepers aside from the odd Swarm Volc or similarly niche/telegraphed ability swaps (and Mold Breaker is definitely a tier above those sorts of secondaries). The consensus seems to be NCA in this thread but I doubt that putting NCA / Mold Breaker up to a poll would be a bad decision.

 

[mark6870]

I'd like Mold Breaker if Pokemon that used priority and Unaware were in similar structures or archetypes. The issue is they're a completely different batch of mons. Going between Mold Breaker and Dazzling is going between losing to slower, bulkier Pokemon we can't boost past or going past strong revenge killers and wallbreakers and if you see a CAP34 in team preview it would be a gamble on which set of mon it loses to. It circles back to Dex's point, that picking and choosing our checks is an insanely powerful trait that would make CAP34 a pain to build around, which I personally don't want.

 

[boo836]

Does CAP 34 need or even want a competitive secondary ability to complement Armor Tail and/or further enhance its opportunities to setup with Clangorous Soul? Why?

It seems weird to give this an NCA since its ability is already pretty bad for a Pokemon that resists the most common priority moves outside of Hemo (which is obviously a major omission). I think if we add a competitive ability, it should be something that doesn't add a lot in terms of match-ups but creates a higher skill ceiling than we would otherwise have. When I talk about a skill ceiling, I mean something that has a greater payoff with more skillful use. Opportunist is a great example of an ability that raises the skill ceiling, and made an interesting option for Stored Power shenanigans because it takes advantage of matchups like Zamazenta, Corviknight, or Dondozo trying to sweep with Iron Defence or Curse. Volcarona suddenly can't afford to Quiver Dance, and opposing Modest 34's Clangorous Soul suddenly becomes a dangerous opportunity. Steam Engine is on the secondary ability banlist but is something we should absolutely consider to help CAP34 take advantage of itself and of common Water-type walls like Cresceidon, Alomomola, and Dondozo. Steam Engine also has great synergy with Stored Power, and with the omniboost can really punish unprepared stall teams. It's not that powerful of an ability because we depend more on the omniboost to pose a real threat, it only really changes whether or not your opponent can get away with spamming Scald, Flip=Turn, or Choice-locked Rain-boosted moves. It sounds rough until you remember that CAP34 has to take a resisted hit, shave off 33% with Soul on top of another attack, then hope the opponent doesn't have priority. That's not factoring hazards or Burn damage. With that in mind, the only real matchup it improves is against Unaware Curse Dondozo, and that is at the cost of the Hemoglobin matchup.

Mold Breaker doesn't do any of this, but it's a great option for changing match-ups against Unaware Pokemon, something that isn't that important but does establish what team matchups and circumstances set CAP 34 as a win condition. It's a good choice too but it's not the one I would go for.

 

[dex]

It seems weird to give this an NCA since its ability is already pretty bad for a Pokemon that resists the most common priority moves outside of Hemo (which is obviously a major omission).

Dragon/Poison does not resist Normal (Dragonite Extreme Speed) or Dark (Kingambit Sucker Punch) and is frail enough to be threatened by Electric (Raging Bolt Thunderclap) and the weaker Steel (Scizor Bullet Punch). It’s even weak to Ice (Weavile Ice Shard)! I'm curious what you consider to be common priority moves, since it seems like CAP 34 is on average neutral to all the best ones (and we know with Tera that being neutral to priority does not make you safe!). Armor Tail seems exceedingly good when you put it in the context of the current metagame, and that’s not even counting the fact that Armor Tail frees CAP 34 to Tera into types like Water or Dragon without fear of retribution. This reads as an attempt to downplay the strength of CAP 34's current toolset to jam on abilities that seem fun. That is not the purpose of this stage; I challenge you to think more critically about the current metagame and CAP 34's potential place in it.

 

[N-Manifold]

I think I've significantly cooled off of a secondary ability. Mold Breaker is the only one I think adds anything to this Mon and I do like that it reduces the guessing game somewhat, but the primary issue with a secondary ability is, I think, less the uncertainty during the game (either before it switches in or after) but rather the pressure in the team builder. Making unaware mons worse into this thing is probably not great if we want to not make it a pain to prepare for.

I don't think any ability other than Mold Breaker is worth giving time to. Steam engine is a cute tech, but it will never get used over armor tail. At least mold breaker would get used if a team wants 34 to be better into fat.

 

[boo836]

Dragon/Poison does not resist Normal (Dragonite Extreme Speed) or Dark (Kingambit Sucker Punch) and is frail enough to be threatened by Electric (Raging Bolt Thunderclap) and the weaker Steel (Scizor Bullet Punch). It’s even weak to Ice (Weavile Ice Shard)! I'm curious what you consider to be common priority moves, since it seems like CAP 34 is on average neutral to all the best ones (and we know with Tera that being neutral to priority does not make you safe!). Armor Tail seems exceedingly good when you put it in the context of the current metagame, and that’s not even counting the fact that Armor Tail frees CAP 34 to Tera into types like Water or Dragon without fear of retribution. This reads as an attempt to downplay the strength of CAP 34's current toolset to jam on abilities that seem fun. That is not the purpose of this stage; I challenge you to think more critically about the current metagame and CAP 34's potential place in it.

Dnite and Weavile aren't nearly as common as say, Rillaboom, Raging Bolt, Revenankh or Miasmaw lol. Scizor is extremely rare, why use that instead of Cawm? Boosted Thunderclap does like 27% maximum to a boosted CAP34. Telling me to think critically about the metagame when everything you've listed not named Gambit is less than rank 70 in usage at 1630 or actually a terrible matchup (read: Raging Bolt) makes this post come across as unnecessarily hostile. Even going to 1760, at best you see Dragonite barely in the top 50, and everything else is even lower lol. I challenge you to think more critically about the current metagame and the place of those threats you named in it.

 

[Brambane]

CAP is a small community, and there is a notable distinction between the ladder/roomtour metagame and the Bo1 or Bo3 tournament setting. Pokemon like Dragonite are going to hold more prominence in that setting; you are preparing both for the Dnite in front of you when you load into a game, and the potential of Dnite even showing up in your match. Armor Tail does help nicely with that.

But really, Armor Tail was about Hemogoblin and Kingambit, and everything after that is an added bonus. Armor Tail allows you to enable otherwise risky Tera Types vs opposing offense and balance. The ability isn't bad if it protects it from two of the biggest revenge killers in the format.

Opportunist is a funky ability that is hard to evaluate, I wouldn't want to patch it onto a project this late in development. The ability has a lot of depth that hasn't been fully explored since lol Espathra, and probably would merit its own process, especially moveset and stats to be built around it. Steam Engine ruins the "revenge killed by Booster Energy [blank]" which was a big part of stat limits. Again, a cool ability, but not one I would focus on as a secondary.

 

[boo836]

CAP is a small community, and there is a notable distinction between the ladder/roomtour metagame and the Bo1 or Bo3 tournament setting. Pokemon like Dragonite are going to hold more prominence in that setting; you are preparing both for the Dnite in front of you when you load into a game, and the potential of Dnite even showing up in your match. Armor Tail does help nicely with that.

But really, Armor Tail was about Hemogoblin and Kingambit, and everything after that is an added bonus. Armor Tail allows you to enable otherwise risky Tera Types vs opposing offense and balance. The ability isn't bad if it protects it from two of the biggest revenge killers in the format.

Opportunist is a funky ability that is hard to evaluate, I wouldn't want to patch it onto a project this late in development. The ability has a lot of depth that hasn't been fully explored since lol Espathra, and probably would merit its own process, especially moveset and stats to be built around it. Steam Engine ruins the "revenge killed by Booster Energy [blank]" which was a big part of stat limits. Again, a cool ability, but not one I would focus on as a secondary.

There have always been differences in tour play and ladder, and that typically boils down to how probability is managed. Tour play incentivises risks whereas ladder play demands consistency. None of this changes the fact that what Dex is suggesting outside of Kingambit and Raging Bolt are barely used B-ranks. Dragonite got used like 3 times from round 6 onwards of the Winter Seasonal. That's not a whole lot of a difference. Steam Engine is situational and dissuades Scald and Flip Turn spam, the point is reaching +2 220 BP Stored Power and taking full advantage of the omniboost.

The entire point of suggesting Opportunist is the depth. CAP34 is extremely one-dimensional as just simply a bog-standard OM sweeper role concept. It's no less boring than and retreading ground set by Cawm and Necturna. The abilities I've mentioned are entirely geared towards punishing certain common plays in a way that makes CAP34 a more effective Stored Power sweeper. One punishes certain win conditions like Body Press boosters, and the other punishes spammable Water moves that are normally great for making progress. Neither of these are supposed to significantly change match-ups beyond a better performance against team builds, because they're meant to establish more definitive win conditions.

 

[dex]

The entire point of suggesting Opportunist is the depth. CAP34 is extremely one-dimensional as just simply a bog-standard OM sweeper role concept. It's no less boring than and retreading ground set by Cawm and Necturna.

First, I want to apologize. You’re right, I was being needlessly hostile. I disagreed with your outlook on priority in the current metagame but my language was out of place. However, I do want to push back on the quoted statement. Brambane and others have said a few times now that CAP 34’s big variability came with its moveset, as we gave it expansive coverage, techy utility in Taunt/Encore/Destiny Bond, and the chance to throw off certain counterplay with Draining Kiss, Dragon Tail, and Stored Power. This is something those previously mentioned CAP sweepers don’t have (funny because Necturna has every move but could never get out of the Shell Smash/Geomancy trap). I think the big argument against stuff like Opportunist and Steam Engine is that CAP 34 already has quite a high number of tools to circumvent particular checks from its moves. Draining Kiss and Taunt can get around Ting-Lu, Stored Power can cheese through Arghonaut, etc. Adding more fuel to that fire, to me, is something I’d caution against. And again, I’m sorry for how I phrased my opinions and yours, that was improper of me.

That all being said, I’ll discuss with the TLT on whether or not there should be a poll. There’s been some decent arguments here!

 

[kenn]

Okay so now that I finally have a chance to make this post, here it is! Despite there being some conversation about Mold Breaker as a potential secondary option, the lack of overlap in terms of checks/counters feels like CAP 34 can just pick and choose what it wants to beat. Which, when coupled with the tools it has already in Clangorous Soul and a solid STAB/coverage combo, I, along with the TLT, decided that there was no need to allow that to happen so therefore...

We will NOT be going to a poll and as such the decision has been made to go for No Competitive Ability as CAP 34's secondary ability choice!

I appreciate all the discussion that has been had and we are getting super close to the 1.0 release of CAP 34 and I am so hyped and super pumped to see it in action!

 

[dex]

yes good no poll sorry to ability lovers I am a hater

But in reality, we spent our remaining power budget in moves, which differentiates CAP 34 greatly from other "one-off" sweepers. Looking forward to getting this project wrapped up!