Hello everyone, it's time to get CAP23 rolling with our first concept poll. snake_rattler has selected eight concepts for us to review and vote. Please read each concept carefully below before casting your vote.
The concepts slated into this poll are:
Utility Counter 2.0
Utility Counter 2.0
Terrain - O - Saurus
Maximum Compression
Scizor of the Sun
Bravest of All
Terrain Seed Abuser
New Toy Syndrome
Wait! It's a Trap Move!
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This thread will be open for 24 hours.
Good luck to all candidates!
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The concepts slated into this poll are:
Utility Counter 2.0
Terrain-O-Saurusgibygiby said:
- Name - Utility Counter 2.0
- Description - The definition of a utility counter is essentially a Pokémon that can check and take on a variety of other Pokémon, but not all at once. This CAP would do this offensively using abilities, typing, move coverage, and stats/EV distribution/nature to utilize different sets but could only handle certain Pokémon based on the set.
- Justification - Archetype: Utility Counter is literally an archetype. It’s a type of Pokémon that checks a lot of threats but will only take on maybe a few in a game. In a metagame with more and more threats, having Pokémon that can take on a lot of them is incredibly useful. Having a Pokémon that can use different sets to counter different threats is also useful to expand its versatility and potential. Since Krilowatt had the same concept, this would be our second time with this concept.
- Questions To Be Answered:
- How do all of these factors listed above (ability, typing, move coverage, and stats/EV distribution/nature) affect versatility in a Pokémon and what it can take on?
- How does having multiple viable sets on a Pokémon affect how people play against it?
- How will the threat list for this CAP be developed since it can handle a lot of different situations based on the set, with each set having a different list that it can check? What will it fully counter, only check, sometimes check, and what will check and counter it?
- How will this concept differentiate itself from Krilowatt’s project? What options can we give this CAP without creating 1 “best set” like Krilowatt?
- Will this CAP counter threats via quality, i.e. counter a few very well, or via quantity by countering a lot but not very well?
- How will this CAP use its offensive and defensive capabilities to counter threats? Which will it focus on more? How could it use both offense and defense in tandem?
The idea is, “I need help with Threat X, so I’ll use CAP’s set A, which counters Threat X, along with some other threats.” “…but this time I want to counter Threat Y, in which case I want CAP’s set B.” The sets on this CAP could be tailored to counter a specific threat or a couple of threats in order to support a team. This CAP won’t be able to handle every Pokémon or situation with 1 set and will still have some Pokémon that could check it regardless of the set the CAP runs.
- Explanation:
This CAP will most likely have 4 move slot syndrome, as well as issues deciding EV distribution (+speed to check certain threats, but also +attack/special attack to handle other threats). Options in its ability, move coverage and item (Z-moves possibly) could also significantly impact its sets.
I see this concept looking like this: CAP has usable stats on both physical and special side so it could be a physical attacker or special attacker or can go mixed (probably somewhere in between) and whose EV distribution and nature is critical to each set (ex. can check threat Y because CAP out speeds but only if it uses a +speed nature, will most likely need significant reasons to not run a +speed nature). Could have a slightly defensive oriented set. This may be a repeat of Krilowatt’s concept, but I feel we could go in a slightly different direction and still satisfy the concept. For example, having multiple viable sets to target specific threats.
Edits:
Added extra sentence in Justification and fixed some wording.
Added 2nd question and extra to questions 3, 4 and 6.
Added extra mentioning of nature choice to expand options in the concept and to stimulate ideas.
Added extra notes to emphasize that I would prefer that this concept end up with multiple sets to take on different threats.
Changed name to "Utility Counter 2.0" with the clarification added at the end of the Justification.
Maximum CompressionJohn said:Name: Terrain - O - Saurus
General Discription: A Pokémon which can take advantage of more than one of the Terrain field effects.
Justification: Sun and Moon bought about the Tapu Guardians, who each summon a unique Terrain field effect much like Drought, Drizzle, Snow Warning and Sand Storm. Unlike Weather based field effects however; terrains have little to no Pokémon designed to utilise them to their full potential.
Actualisation & Archtype: When used correctly in the meta game the CAP should instil a sense of synergy; like it utilises the terrain to the best of its ability and the terrain is also bringing out the best in the CAP. This creates an archetype within the meta, a form of team based around this CAP teamed with Terrain setters which is currently only seen with Rain as other forms of field effect are unviable.
Questions to be answered?
.What Makes each terrain powerful?
.How can each terrain's effect be utilised in a way which synergises with a Pokémon?
.How would Terrain set itself apart from already utilised field effects?
.How could a Pokémon synergise with more than one of the terrain effects?
.How large of an effect on Terrain - O - Saurus' effectiveness should be determined by if Terrain is up or not?
.Can Terrain - O - Saurus be accomplished without making it a specific partner Pokémon?
Explanation:
Terrain is such an important part of the Meta right now with all 4 being utilised without any real abusers to synergise with. We've seen methods of utilising terrain to great effect previously (Think Lele + Phero) but no Pokémon outside of Gogoat has any direct synergy with any of the terrains. I think it would be interesting to find out how we can create a way of utilising potentially multiple terrains and have one Pokémon able to synergise well with them. With terrains being such a pivotal point in the meta currently, its the perfect time to experiment how far they can be pushed
Scizor of the Sunreachzero said:
- Name - Maximum Compression
- Description - A Pokemon that compresses a number of vital team roles efficiently within a single moveset, opening team slots for more powerful, less specialized Pokemon.
- Justification
- While it sounds at first glance like an archetype, this is actually a Target concept. The goal is to relax the mad scramble to fill every important team time using only six slots, by compressing as many as possible into one specialized slot.
- Questions To Be Answered
- What are the major roles that must be compressed for a CAP team to be effective?
- Which roles are the hardest to fit on a team at present?
- How many roles can one team slot with one typing realistically compress?
- Which Pokemon increase in value when essential team needs are already covered?
- What are the weaknesses for role compression? For offensive mons, does role compression inherently mean giving up precious coverage?
- How close is the correlation between a Pokemon's usefulness and its power? How do we maximize role compression while maintaining competitive balance?
- How much does a role relate to a Pokemon's typing, abilities, stats, or moves? What approximate combination does a typical X role need?-Are there certain roles that just naturally seem to jive together?
-What moves or other characteristics seem to be common in role compression? Are they common because of some sort of latent synergy, because of simple distribution, or anything else?- Can typically "opposite" roles still be compressed together?
- Do roles exist as independent categories or is there some sort of spectrum or chart or klein-group that we can use to organize roles? How do differing roles relate and interact with each other?
Edit: Please note that HeaLnDeaL and I have decided to officially merge our concept submissions, making this a joint submission.
- Explanation - Before Generation 6, the most significant aspect of building a team was type synergy, since there were so few threats that needed to be specifically covered. Generation 6 altered this process dramatically by introducing Megas and especially Sticky Web (Necturna)--Megas because their power was too great to realistically build without one and Sticky Web because they essentially made hazard control, which until this point was a luxury, into a hard necessity for a seriously competitive team. Complicating this, CAP has several offensive threats that are really difficult to account for, with Volkraken the most obvious. Handling this many roles, even using basic role compression, often takes as many as four slots, giving you little room for originality. This Pokemon would aim to take on the tougher roles to fit on a team; this means it would probably not care about hazard setting or removal, for instance, since the CAP metagame already has those in spades. By specializing in the hard to fill roles, it would be easier to fit Pokemon like Syclant or Zygarde that do not counter any of the Pokemon with annoyingly specific counters.
Bravest of Allboxofkangaroos said:Name: Scizor of the Sun
Description: A Pokemon that benefits from the weakening of Water-type moves in the Sun in order to better function as a utility or support Pokemon.
Justification: Scizor of the Sun is an Archetype concept because it establishes a new role in the metagame that previously was not present. Rain teams generally feature one or more utility Pokemon (often Scizor or Ferrothorn) that benefit from Rain’s weakening of Fire-type moves, providing support for their team while also being supported by the Rain setters. Sun teams, however, rarely feature more than a Drought user and some Fire-type or Chlorophyll abusers. This Pokemon will aim to patch that hole, creating a new role and deepening the Sun archetype as a whole.
Questions To Be Answered:
Explanation: Ever since Gen 6, Sun has been a largely unexplored archetype. It has been outclassed by Rain in both OU and CAP, mainly because there are simply not as many good options for Sun teams. At the outset of Gen 7, Rain was buffed even further with the introduction of Drizzle Pelipper, an option far superior to Politoed due to Pelipper’s momentum and secondary typing. Despite the introduction of both Drought Torkoal and Drought Malaconda, Sun is still left sitting on the sidelines as an archetype that is much less prevalent in CAP. Scizor of the Sun aims to change this by fleshing out the Sun archetype to make it as complex as Rain currently is. In parallel with Rain’s Scizor and Ferrothorn, Scizor of the Sun must be weak to Water, as it is essential to fulfilling the concept. Whether this Pokemon is 2x or 4x weak to Water must be left to later stages of the process. From there, there are a variety of ways to take this – ideally, Scizor of the Sun should synergize with existing Sun threats such as Mega Charizard Y, Malaconda and Venusaur, and it should have access to moves or abilities that allow it to act as a utility or support Pokemon for Sun teams. I am eager to see how Scizor of the Sun can transform the use of weather in the CAP metagame!
- How can a Pokemon abuse weather without a specific boosting ability?
- Can this Pokemon increase the viability of Sun teams as a whole?
- Would an increase in popularity of Sun teams provoke “weather wars” and threaten the popularity of Rain, Sand, and even Hail archetypes?
- How might this Pokemon synergize with other Sun abusers through defensive typing and/or offensive coverage?
- How can this Pokemon's weakness to Water be one of its defining characteristics?
- If this Pokemon has other weaknesses besides Water, how will they play out in the Sun?
- How can we draw inspiration from Scizor and Ferrothorn without copying their stats and abilities too literally?
- How can this Pokemon work to develop the Sun archetype as a whole?
Terrain Seed AbuserKrewlKat said:
- Name - Bravest of All
- Description - A subpar CAP who's saving grace is a highly competitive ability
- Justification - In the XY metagame we were introduced to a strange Pokemon, Talonflame. This Pokemon despite its strange typing and abysmal stats it was a highly known OU threat due to its extremely powerful ability, Gale Wings, that allowed it to out prioritize other Pokemon to either heal its self with Roost or deal massive damage with Brave Bird. Talonflame set an example for what could happen when you give a sub-par Pokemon an amazing ability(ies), and I believe CAP 23 should live by Talonflame's example and show the community how far a great ability(ies) can take sub-par Pokemon.
- Target: - With my concept I wish to address the importance of abilities to the metagame and see if a Pokemon that is intentionally made with lackluster typing and stats simply focused on its ability could do something for the metagame.
Questions to be Answered :
- - How much does a CAP's ability impact it's viability? What makes a "good" ability good?
- - Would this CAP be too centralized towards one playstyle?Would it have multiple good abilities that support different playstyles?
- - Would this CAP be too easily stopped by mons that counter that ability?Would the CAP become a to great threat to the mons that lose to that ability?
- - What can the community learn from a CAP made with lackluster typing and stats?
- - What makes it possible to make a pokemon that relies so heavily on its ability to function?
- Explanation - In all instances of a CAP being based around an ability its a good CAP made to use a bad ability e.i Cyclohm, but this CAP would challenge that status quo and be a bad CAP made for a good ability. It would be interesting to see what we as a community could learn from a pokemon who only has one competitively viable feature.
New Toy Syndromesparktrain said:Name: Terrain Seed Abuser
Description: A Pokemon that effectively utilizes one or more of Electric Seed, Grassy Seed, Misty Seed, or Psychic Seed in the CAP metagame.
Justification: This concept aims to bring one or more of the terrain seeds into usage by creating a Pokemon that's specifically designed to take advantage of them. As such, this concept is a hybrid of Actualization and Archetype. Analyzing the facets of these underused items in the context of the CAP metagame will allow us actualize their usage by making them viable item choices for our creation. Due to the very nature of these items, this concept aims to effectively design a different kind of terrain abuser, ultimately creating a new role in the metagame. In doing so, we'll be able to explore and learn more about the effects of terrain on the metagame, and how a seed abuser can help strengthen terrain archetypes.
Questions To Be Answered:
- Generally speaking, what kind of Pokemon benefits the most from the effects of a terrain seed?
- What role does an ideal terrain seed abuser have on a team?
- Which terrains are the most prominent in the CAP metagame?
- Which terrains provide the most useful effects for an ideal terrain seed abuser?
- Should CAP 23 have the ability to benefit from multiple terrains, or should it work best in one specific terrain?
- How can CAP 23 be used to strengthen certain terrain cores?
- Should this Pokemon be capable of running other items effectively?
Explanation: The four terrain seeds are items with unseen potential in the CAP metagame. In OU, Hawlucha utilizes the Defense boost from Electric Seed to ease its setup as a fast, frail Swords Dance sweeper. The slower, bulkier Necrozma occasionally uses Grassy Seed or Electric Seed to become a nearly unbreakable Calm Mind sweeper under the right conditions. However, these two Pokemon are far from ideal users of the terrain seeds, and are hardly ever seen in the CAP metagame due to the numerous additional roadblocks they face. None of the currently existing CAP Pokemon make for good users of the terrain seeds either. As a result, the terrain seeds are virtually unseen in the CAP metagame. This concept aims to change that by designing a Pokemon that can effectively utilize one or more of these items.
Over the past 22 CAP projects, we've had many concepts that focus on specific attributes of a Pokemon. We've worked hard together to maximize the potential of underrated typings, abilities, and even specific moves! However, we've yet to tackle a concept that is truly item-centric, and this concept does just that by seeking to maximize the potential of these items. Moreover, by focusing on the terrain seeds, the CAP community will get to discuss one of the hot new Gen 7 mechanics (terrain) and the impact it has on our metagame.
Wait! It's a Trap Move!G-Luke said:Name: New Toy Syndrome
Description: Pokémon that is defined by the utilization of the unseen Gen 7 abilities in CAP.
Justification: This concept aims to use one of the many new Gen 7 abilities that are unseen in CAP to its full potential. It identifies as Actualization, as it brings the idea of these abilities being used successfully by a Pokémon in the CAP metagame to fruition. It can also be seen as an Archetype concept, as the successful use of these abilities will no doubt bring new unseen roles to the metagame.
Questions to be Answered:
Explaination: Generation 7 brought with it a plentiful amount of signature abilities; such as Queenly Majesty/Dazzling, Fluffy, Innards Out and Emergency Exit. Unfortunately, most of these abilities are not utilized in the SM CAP metagame, due to the users either having much better options (Toxapex) or have no place in the metagame (Dhelmise, Tsareena). This Pokémon would not only have one of these abilities, but will be designed to utilize this ability to its full potential in the CAP metagame, playing on both its strengths and weaknesses. Fluffy allows a Pokémon to be a great physical tank, at the cost of a Fire type weakness. Stamina turns mons into great defensive tanks over the course of a match and Dazzling grants the user Priority immunity. All of these abilities provide extremely useful effects, but are not used due to the owner's having supbar to terrible performance in SM for a variety of reasons. This CAP aims to change that. The prospects of this CAP are as limitless as the ability chosen for it.
- Why are these abilities currently unseen in the CAP? What can be done, along the areas of stats, typing and movepool, to prevent our CAP from falling into obscurity as the original owners of the abilities have?
- What makes an ability define a Pokémon?
- How can we design the CAP in such a way, as to make it choose to use the new ability given to it, as opposed to other secondary or hidden abilities?
- What new roles in the metagame can be established from the creation of this CAP?
- To furthur the point above, how beneficial will these new roles be to the CAP metagame?
First time submitting an idea for CAP. Please bear with me any errors made.
The slate for easy copy/paste access is as follows:Okamu said:Name: Wait! It's a Trap Move!
Description: A Pokémon that can make effective use of semi-trapping, fully trapping, or self-trapping move(s).
Justification: Trapping is a somewhat polarized mechanic in the current SM metagame. In terms of ability-based trappers we have Dugtrio, perhaps one of the most hated (or most loved, really depends on the situation) Pokémon thanks to its ability Arena Trap. There is also the occasionally seen Magnezone that uses Magnet Pull to lure in and decimate Steel type Pokemon. All trapping effects are ignored by the Shed Shell item or simply by being a Ghost type. However, this is not the kind of trapping I want to focus on. Focusing on abilities leaves few options, and the general mechanics are the same: Lure, Trap, Destroy. Nothing much new is to be found there.
So, instead, I would like this concept to focus on trapping moves. For those unfamiliar with the term, there are a few types of trapping moves which I will make an attempt to explain here. A semi- or partially trapping move prevents the opponent from switching out for a set number of turns while also usually doing a set percent of damage. Example moves would be Whirlpool, Fire Spin, Infestation, and Magma Storm (but don't use that last one, it's legendary exclusive!). There are also what I like to call fully trapping moves, moves that prevent the opponent from switching not for a set number of turns, but instead until the Pokémon who used the move leaves the battlefield. This category includes moves such as Block as well as the brand-new Gen 7 moves of Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle. Also are what I call self-trapping moves, which is just Ingrain to my knowledge. This move (and if any similar ones come about) lock the USER into battle. Lastly, just to make sure I cover all my bases, Fairy Lock is an interesting trapping move that prevents any Pokémon, friend or foe, from leaving the battlefield on the following turn only (Barring the usual exceptions).
This concept fits in the Actualization and Archetype categories. Trapping moves are exceedingly rare in their usage. The most effective in OU currently is Magma Storm Heatran, but this is by far not its only nor its best set. Expanding our gaze slightly we may find the strange Stall-Trap or Perish-Trap strategies in use in varying parts of the ladder. Even further? Ok then, in Ubers you can find an excellent example of self-trapping in Ingrain Xerneas, which helps prevent the opponent from forcing Xerneas out after it has set up its boosts. In addition, one could look at SD Trapper Decidueye that sets up with Swords Dance after trapping a helpless opponent via Spirit Shackle. Dhelmise can also use Anchor Shot, though I'm not terribly sure as to how that set works... Regardless, that makes about four solid examples of trapping moves across four different tiers, and none of the sets are by any means the only or most effective sets those Pokémon can run (Except maybe Dhelmise. Is there an RU player here who can help me out with that thing?). Overall, the relative rarity of these moves in competitive play when contrasted with the seemingly powerful effect of locking in the opponent begs a variety of questions about the nature and use of said trapping moves. To best explore these moves, designing a Pokémon to use and abuse them makes the most sense for understanding how to properly use them (whatever that would mean).
Questions To Be Answered:
(Base) Is there a 'best' way to utilize trapping moves? If so, what playstyle does it most align with?
(Base) Is there a 'best' type of trapping move overall, or are they each truly viable in their own ways?
(Base) What is the value in trapping the opposing Pokémon? Are certain traps better than others? Why?
(Base) What synergies work well with trapping moves? Why do they have such a great synergy, and how can that be expanded or dealt with in the process of teambuilding?
(Comparison) How do trapping moves compare against trapping abilities? Are there any inherent benefits and disadvantages and if so, what are they?
(Metagame) Are there any particular archetype matchups in which a trapping-move Pokémon would have an advantage? A disadvantage? Why is that?
(Metagame) What has contributed to the lack of presence of trapping moves in our metagame? Is it a plethora of other options, a lack of viable abusers, or something else?
(Metagame) How does the trapping mechanic interact with the value of switching out?
Explanation:
With the variety of different trapping moves available for use, a variety of archetypes can be built depending on the choice of move. To start, let's first analyze the semi-trapping moves. As mentioned before the basic applications for these fall in the categories of trapping and stalling out opponents through the use of Toxic or other status ailments. Alternatively, as with Heatran, it's used to trap vulnerable Pokémon in order to further weaken them to critical levels or straight up KO them. It was also mentioned during updates another strategy of using the moves of Pokémon who cannot do anything to your Pokémon and then setting up to sweep, as with Infestation on Aurumoth and Syclant, though this was generically deemed unviable. As for the fully-trapping moves, they are far more inclined to be used in the set up manner, as with the previously mentioned Decidueye. Again, stall sets works well with these moves as well, as they fully prevent escape instead of trapping just for a few turns. However, they do not do damage at the end of each turn, making the chip damage not as substantial. Ingrain honestly in the CAP metagame does not have any real foreseeable use. The anti-phasing properties applied to the Pokémon aren't useful unless you're trying to set up, and HazeHawk already makes easy work of any physical and non-SE moves if it switches in early enough. From there, it can usually chip you down. There could be some viability if you wanted to use super effective STAB moves such as Psychic type or Fairy type moves, but that seems a bit limiting, so I wouldn't necessarily encourage it unless someone thinks of a radically different use. Lastly we come to the more support-oriented role of Fairy Lock. The main way I have personally used this is on a Spikes, Dual Screens Lead Klefki. I let it set up until it was about to die, then used Fairy Lock to trap the opponent for an easy revenge kill. There are ways to use this move as more of a offensive role, by trapping at key points when you predict the opponent, but more importantly, this move is not very compatible with the stall playstyle, as the effect only lasts one turn. In addition to all of this, "trapping synergies with three great follow-up strategies: setting up, safely pivoting out, and using a powerful Z move lure" (snek), all of which can be considered when constructing the CAP. Overall, there are some similar threads of playstyles and archetypes, but each with its own niche.
Utility Counter 2.0
Terrain - O - Saurus
Maximum Compression
Scizor of the Sun
Bravest of All
Terrain Seed Abuser
New Toy Syndrome
Wait! It's a Trap Move!
Asking for votes for or against any submission is not allowed. Anyone found to have done so risks punishment at the moderation team's discretion. If you find that someone has broken this rule, please contact the CAP moderation team with your evidence and no one else. Mini-moderation of this rule is also considered a serious offense and can be punished.
This thread will be open for 24 hours.
Good luck to all candidates!
