BW OU Revamps - Post weather and BP change

Oglemi

Borf
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With the most recent tiering changes regarding BW OU, some major changes need to happen to some analyses on site. The most major of which include:

Analysis removals:
Stoutland
Victreebel
Sandslash
Gorebyss(?)
Huntail
Ninjask

New analyses:
Excadrill

Analysis overhauls:
Ninetales
Venusaur
Donphan
Dugtrio
Xatu
Smeargle
Espeon

Analysis revamps/updates:
Politoed
Tyranitar
Abomasnow
Hippowdon
Reuniclus
Hydreigon
Alakazam

Everything else could probably use an update to reflect the current meta and their interactions with Excadrill

QC Team:
BKC
Jirachee
49
Finchinator
steelphoenix
Just let me know if you're interested.
 
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I'm interested in QCing

I think Gorebyss could keep an analysis. One of my favorite Frontier '13 teams had a pure sweeper set, it was quite strong and specialized in destroying rain. Unfortunately now people won't initially think you're SmashPassing them but it's pretty powerful in its own right.

Thundurus-T is more forced to run Focus Blast now. It, alongside Hydreigon, the Kyurems, Volcarona (especially since it's QDing and shouldn't lose to Scarf!), and offensive variants of Mew/Celebi/Jirachi, also needs to be be +spe to outrun Exca. This in turn means Garchomp will start being +spe again even though Adamant already conveniently beats Drill. I could see +spe Landorus-T having some merit as well.

Honestly I don't think mole is that good (terrible frankly) but these things should be mentioned, for example it'll come in handy when a weatherless offense faces a Sandstorm sweeper (which would still use Jolly because losing to Heatran, Mamoswine, Toxicroak and DD Land-T would be silly).
 
you must be only so concerned if you don't want to take the time to check you spell "drought" correctly. tush tush unit

would luv to qc, if that'd be kosher w/the higher-ups. i play a heck of a lot of bw2, qc real good, and worse comes to worse, i can just parrot kevin and speed things along.
 

Jirachee

phoenix reborn
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politoed / tyranitar / alakazam / hydreigon don't need new analyses. tyranitar only needs a set reorder but only removing ninetales mentions should be fine.

the top priority should be reuniclus, the current analysis is just... guh

scizor and keldeo need new analyses too. flying gem should NOT be the only offensive sd (in fact I think it should be an option only.) keldeo needs cm + fighting / ghost gem and some sets removed as well as a reorder

specially defensive should be one of the last of jirachi's sets. def not the 2nd

heatran needs a set reorder

gliscor needs poison heal sd

garchomp needs to have more mentions to dual chop (over dragon claw on most sets except standard) as well as adamant as 1st option on cb

kyurem-b needs a new analysis

I'd say landorus-t needs to be rewritten too, at least the scarf set (and it should be 1st or 2nd)

skarm's sdef set needs to be higher and it has bad evs

volcarona needs to be rewritten

sorry for just throwing all of that out there but it's easier to list that way D:
 

Reymedy

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I can QC if need be.

checked the analysis real quick, main things :
- IDK why Loom has CB slashed on the first set (it should not be on any set tbh, whoever used it in his life can throw the stone at me)
it even has stone edge slashed with spore, I guess that was to go along with the CB?
- You can add Infernape to the list Oglemi , as its analysis is really focused on it as "Sun Sweeper".
- I'd reorder at least Jirachi, SubCM is a set focused around taking advantage of a Rain heavy metagame, which is really not representative of current BW, so it should not be first IMO
- RotomW analysis looks older than me, the bulky set isn't something you see too much and when you see it, it's mostly a lure tailored for a specific threat such as Ferrothorn with HP Fire

other things bug'd me a bit like slowbro not having a cm set for instance, or terrak sacred sword cb etc. but these are minor so..
 

Finchinator

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Alakazam may need a couple adjustments (just adding and deleting a few things - for example, there's no slash or comment for HP Ice outside of the OO when it's probably worth a main or back slash over something like TWave), but I don't think it needs many changes tbh..not enough to warrant a full revamp or anything.\

I feel like Hydreigon could also use some adjustments, probably a few more than Alakazam (i.e: idk why Draco doesn't get its own mention in the first set and why Dark Pulse is the only attack without an alternative slash - it should be draco, roost, dark pulse / fire blast, & focus blast / fire blast probably) and maybe the deletion of a set or two (unless someone actually has used Specs Hydreigon in the last 2 years, which I don't think is the case as they're almost all LO), but outside of that it's alright.

Sorta on the fence about Politoed, tbh. I feel like the Scarf set should be first or second, not third, and should have Hypnosis backslashed somewhere. I also feel like the "Special Attacker" variant would be better with ChestoResto than it would be with the current items (Leftovers and Water Gem respectively - a big merit of Water Gem is hurting Ninetales more on the switch in, too, which is not less important, while Lefties aren't too necessary when you compare it to the niche of ChestoResto which gives longevity, the ability to bluff, etc., so I feel like that set can be redone a bit in general). I'm sure there are a couple other things I could nitpick here as well, but I just skimmed through the sets - overall point is that it needs more work than the above two, maybe enough to warrant a revamp or maybe just a re-order and redoing a set or two, but that's up to others I suppose.

I think Tyranitar could use a bit of a re-order - support variant ahead of CB and Lead variant - but that's coming from an avid user of SR Chople Tyranitar (also the fact that CB Tar is quite good, but hard to fit on given how slow it is). Anyway, this is just a more opinion oriented nitpick..the analysis seems fine and doesn't need much (or really any) change tbh.

Volcarona (generally poor analysis for current metagame with numerous questionable placements in terms of moves and even information about and options for volc), Reuniclus (overall update and CM set should 100% be the first listed), and Gliscor (tbh what's there may be salvageable, but an SDef SD Poison Heal set should be added for sure at very least) need work (Jirachee and I spoke about this on IRC and he mentioned them in his post - I'm sorta echoing him here).

I can revamp Keldeo if that's ok with everyone else (just give me the go ahead and I'll get to it this weekend or next week).

Celebi is not very good in general right now I guess, but I think it needs a re-order with Nasty Plot being a bit higher (up for debate, I guess).

Gengar's analysis is so bad that I looked at the first set and felt the urge to throw a shoe at my screen. It needs to be revamped.

Agree w/ Reymedy on Infernape - sun is mentioned like 20 times and if those mentions can get removed, the analysis is solid otherwise (although Infernape is pretty shitty, it's still worthy of an analysis and all these sets it can run, so worth salvaging and not in need of a revamp).

I'm not too big a fan of the Jellicent analysis because I feel like the main spread should have speed for the primary set and that the tertiary set, Choice Specs, should be removed completely (it has even less utility than something like CB Ferrothorn, for example, but that's besides the point and it's really irrelevant to argue such a trivial set on a pokemon that will almost always be running defensive or utility sets..just don't want to give people the idea to try offensive Jellicent because it's never worthwhile). With this all said, I don't think it needs a full revamp..maybe just a different EV spread or the first set to be redone.

Agree w/ Reymedy on Jirachi - thing is that SDef isn't too good either with spikes being all over the place and taking advantage of SDef Rach being so passive, but it's probably more reliable than the SubCM set. Idk, i'm not too big a fan of Jirachi in general right now, but I think the current analysis has some room for improvement and I'll let others discuss how it can be improved before I chime in too much more.

Agree w/ Jirachi on Kyu-B - the analysis right now is probably a couple years old and while it's not too far off of what it should be, multiple sets can be altered and maybe even abolished, reordered, etc., so a new analysis is best here.

I skimmed through a lot of other analysises and I think they're mostly ok, for the record, but just leaving my thoughts on the above for now.
 
- IDK why Loom has CB slashed on the first set (it should not be on any set tbh, whoever used it in his life can throw the stone at me)
it even has stone edge slashed with spore, I guess that was to go along with the CB?
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/breloom-small-changes-to-2-sets.3487190/

this a loom update in this subforum, that has the changes u mention and apparently it is done, but it was never uploaded for some reason

rip dog

e: mr. mime for removals too
 
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PDC

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i'll help w/ qc as well, i'll post some stuff later about what should be revamped etc
 
cobalion is a solid pokemon, dragonuser had great results with it in wcop '13 and marshall swept with one in the most recent tour finals. I know ctc has used it to at least decent success in tour and such before as well.

zapdos is decent too. quite strong against most weatherless/sand offense and utterly decimates rain. it could find some use against defensive teams with great bulk, roar and pressure as long as it's supported with hazards. I contemplated using a subroost one with tspikes in wcop '13 and it did really well in tests. sr weakness blows ofc but overall zap shouldn't be deleted.

victini is like the worst reun check ever. that said I think both it and darm are fine to stay.

scrafty is worth keeping as well; it's slow and not that strong but solid bulk, dark stab, a way to decimate the 4x weak grounds on a fighting type and 3 great abilities means it has a place

I entirely disagree with jellicent ever running speed. it needs bulk.

subcm rachi is really powerful because flash cannon dunks on ttar and it sets up all over ferro while countering the shit out of the 2 big psychics.

I agree with everything else
 

Tokyo Tom

Somewhere between psychotic and iconic
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I appear to have mods in this section, so feel free to let me know about any completed analyses and I can upload + lock them. I also just wanted to chime in here, since I've written a few BW revamps lately -
Gengar's analysis is so bad that I looked at the first set and felt the urge to throw a shoe at my screen. It needs to be revamped.
I did this somewhat recently, so if you could explain what's wrong w/ it I'd be interested to find out. BKC n' Jirachee also chipped in here, so if you guys have any thoughts on its value in the current meta, I'm all ears as well. The order of the sets could be changed though.

Alakazam may need a couple adjustments (just adding and deleting a few things - for example, there's no slash or comment for HP Ice outside of the OO when it's probably worth a main or back slash over something like TWave), but I don't think it needs many changes tbh..not enough to warrant a full revamp or anything.
The removal of HP Ice (and the addition of Thunder Wave as a slash) was catalyzed by Jirachee's comment about it being more of an option depending on your team build, since TWave grants better utility in a general sense, imo. As far as I am concerned, HP Ice does two things: broken Multiscale DNite and DoubleDance Lando-T. Obviously these are important for certain teams (if I may add, not for a lot of balanced Spikes Stack that 'Zam is found on), but this sounds more Set Comments than main slash to me. Being forced out by early-game non-Scarf Lando-T/Chomp is a situation that don't tend to happen often unless Lando comes in on a Focus Blast or something, and although HP Ice helps for ScarfMence, it's relatively uncommon and checked by numerous things, not to mention shut down by TWave. Obviously not to the same extent, but you see where I'm coming from. I haven't seen SpDef Gliscor becoming prevalent yet, though (could be a testament to my inexperience w/ the new meta, idk).

e: I know Chomper is a big deal, but keep in mind Yache and Sash are still p. prevalent among non-Scarf Chomps

Whereas being able to stop 'Mons like Volcarona and Gyarados (yeah, mind games for the latter, fair, but Subbing on a potential Encore Zam is risky; by this I mean most Zam would just click Psychic), sacking Sash to slow down ScarfToed, ScarfTar, Torn, [insert moderately fast Pokemon here] etc. if not just to set up more reasonable win percentages, and grabbing key paralysis on common 'Zam switchins like ScarfRachi I deem to be sufficient enough to warrant a main slash. I mean, TWave is an all-around solid move, and is less "based off the team build" in my eyes, so that was my mentality when adding it over HP Ice.

Also, I super agree w/ Finch regarding Celebi n' Toed ish, as well Support Ttar's re-ordering. It's just more versatile than CB (and I feel that it fits onto more builds). Like, I'm not knocking CB at all, since it still has tons of utility, I just think Support is more prevalent and the analyses should reflect that.

Regarding Hydreigon, I did that one a while ago, and definitely messed up there w/ the Draco and the slashes (I can grab this one, if people don't mind). Although I think it should be (Draco / Dark / Roost / Fire/Focus) because I always thought the Special Dark STAB was a huge niche of Hydreigon's, especially w/ the rise in Reuniclus/Mew (talkin' generally, as in over the past two years) and Starmie/Celebi still being p. prevalent, so having a reliable move to smack them around w/ is still v. important in my eyes. Perhaps a mention of dropping Dark for Fire/Focus in Set Comments would be better? Or not, I'm just a big advocate of Dark Pulse, haha
 

Finchinator

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I appear to have mods in this section, so feel free to let me know about any completed analyses and I can upload + lock them. I also just wanted to chime in here, since I've written a few BW revamps lately -

I did this somewhat recently, so if you could explain what's wrong w/ it I'd be interested to find out. BKC n' Jirachee also chipped in here, so if you guys have any thoughts on its value in the current meta, I'm all ears as well. The order of the sets could be changed though.
I spoke w/ Rachee at length on IRC about this - I simply don't think that max HP gengar is very good, or at least good enough to merit being the first set. However, it has actually been used by BKC and others (I was unaware at the time tbh) with some success, so I'm dropping this point although I still believe that offensive gengar's the way to go..I haven't used max HP gengar, so commenting on it would be unfair.


The removal of HP Ice (and the addition of Thunder Wave as a slash) was catalyzed by Jirachee's comment about it being more of an option depending on your team build, since TWave grants better utility in a general sense, imo. As far as I am concerned, HP Ice does two things: broken Multiscale DNite and DoubleDance Lando-T. Obviously these are important for certain teams (if I may add, not for a lot of balanced Spikes Stack that 'Zam is found on), but this sounds more Set Comments than main slash to me. Being forced out by early-game non-Scarf Lando-T/Chomp is a situation that don't tend to happen often unless Lando comes in on a Focus Blast or something, and although HP Ice helps for ScarfMence, it's relatively uncommon and checked by numerous things, not to mention shut down by TWave. Obviously not to the same extent, but you see where I'm coming from. I haven't seen SpDef Gliscor becoming prevalent yet, though (could be a testament to my inexperience w/ the new meta, idk).

e: I know Chomper is a big deal, but keep in mind Yache and Sash are still p. prevalent among non-Scarf Chomps

Whereas being able to stop 'Mons like Volcarona and Gyarados (yeah, mind games for the latter, fair, but Subbing on a potential Encore Zam is risky; by this I mean most Zam would just click Psychic), sacking Sash to slow down ScarfToed, ScarfTar, Torn, [insert moderately fast Pokemon here] etc. if not just to set up more reasonable win percentages, and grabbing key paralysis on common 'Zam switchins like ScarfRachi I deem to be sufficient enough to warrant a main slash. I mean, TWave is an all-around solid move, and is less "based off the team build" in my eyes, so that was my mentality when adding it over HP Ice.
I mean the they're both situational - Twave hitting faster sweepers, HP Ice hitting dragons/landot/glisc. I've never been a fan of TWave Zam despite using it a fair amount of times, but if others are willing to attest to its viability in comparison to the alternatives, then by all means they can go ahead and I'll be fine with accepting this.
 

Reymedy

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I dont like max HP Gengar either to be honest, I think it's just lazy building.
176 HP => leftovers numbers
8 Def => your sub always lives an Iron Head from burned SpD Jira
56 SpA => Focus Blast always (oh well 70% of the time) kills Ttar Scarf after SR, 100% 2HKO vs Mew
12 SpD => never 2HKO'd by Tentacruel Scald under Rain (oh well... 0.70^2% of the time again)
252 Spe => .
4 EVs left, do whatever you want with them.
Living Iron Heads from burned Jirachee is the threshold you want to reach, I think any further investment is kind of a waste.

IMO the LO set should be the first, it's way more self-sufficient and straight-forward so for me it makes more sense. I mean, the WoW set works because it fares better against the classic answers to the LO set, not because it's that much of a superior set in itself.
I think there should be a mono-attacking set in the analysis because it's very good as long as your team either lures or takes advantage of Ttar.
Scarf is plain garbage to be frank and should not have a set, it's another option at best and basically boils down to "Yo, I can trick a Choice item". It does not work the slightest in the current metagame whatsoever, you don't want to make the life of the Ttar that is in one team out of two easier.

About Alakazam, I think HP Ice/Fire / Encore / Twave are all on equal grounds. You fit whatever can cover the threat you need to cover, there is not really a go-to option by default.

PS : Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see that WoW is mentionned in Other Options while it is actually present in the main set, I'm not an expert, but that's probably a mistake.
 
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if i may, i was similarly of the notion that wisp should have some slight type of spa investment, and that the max hp iteration (while certainly retaining some neat implications here and there, such as the point regarding bp luke that i might recall bkc mentioning when gar was last being revamped) is more-or-less sub-optimal from my experiences with it. i similarly reached for avoiding spdef 'rachi's ih breaking subs as one of the more key 'defensive benchmark' here, similar to remedy, though i personally shot for a slightly more offensively-minded spread of 112 hp / 44 def / 100 spa / 252 spe, the spread i ended up recommending to tokyo tom for his gar revamp he ended up doing a couple months back. this slight bump in spa had some pretty cute implications, including the ability to 2hko chople support tar w/o prior damage (well, bar consecutive abs.min rolls and misses), the ensured 2hko on phys.def skarm after sr + lefties, and some other cheese like not giving the reuniclus the option of cm'ing to fish for consecutive low rolls (0 spa gar averages ~107% of the 106.25% needed in its two attacks). the cruel is something i do believe i noted when tinkering w/the spread, but ultimately, given how the meta was shifting out of such a rain-heavy stance, i opted for this to get that extra oomph.

while i do agree that zam's final moveslot is highly malleable, and therefore based quite heavily on team structure and even personal preference, i've considered hp fire to be perhaps a slight notch below the alternatives. this is not only for its slightly more narrow scope of application (catching zor is def.cool, especially for those types of "psychic spam" builds, as is being able to suppress spikers a smidge better), but the 'cost' of utilizing this move is that much higher for forcing an imperfect speed iv. probably not anything too huge, but something to consider if and when its being revamped.
 
Should we test Venusaur now in BW UU? Though its a dead tier it still shows up in tours here and there, and we might as well 'perfect' it further if we can.
 

p2

Banned deucer.
I went through cms and removed the analyses for sandslash, stoutland, victreebel, mr mime, huntail, and ninjask.
 

Dranzer Gigs

Banned deucer.
I would love to write an overhaul for Ninetales! It seems pretty interesting, and considering that Droight has been banned I think it could maybe lead to some interesting new sets that while they may not be as effective competetively, will sure to be fun to play with.
 

Oglemi

Borf
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I would love to write an overhaul for Ninetales! It seems pretty interesting, and considering that Droight has been banned I think it could maybe lead to some interesting new sets that while they may not be as effective competetively, will sure to be fun to play with.
Might wanna consider actually playing the meta and understanding the rule change, Drought isn't banned, the Clause limits any auto weather + weather Speed boosting ability
 

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