BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

[Duckymomo Senior]

Heavyweapons Mann I would say pdon goes under both multidimensional/unique sets and centralization because as I've said it more viable sets than any other mon in BH making it nearly impossible to know which set ur facing and pretty much every good team has a pdon and requires a pdon check (usually fur coat giratina or zyg) although it's literally impossible to check all of pdon' sets

 

[cityscapes]

These are the following properties a Pokemon should have to be considered banworthy:

• Inherent/Natural Qualities:
  • A banworthy Pokemon should be considered first and foremost as a blank state with no ability or specific moveset, on the merits of its stats in both an offensive and defensive setting. It should outshine every other Pokemon in the tier and be considered head and shoulders above them.
  • In addition, their typing would grant both a great offensive STAB as well as uncommon or easy to patch weaknesses (e.g. by an ability), and also be neutral or resistant to common hazards
• Multidimensional and Unique Sets:
  • Because of its stats and typing, the Pokemon can run many different sets and different roles, all of which vary from passable to dominant in the tier, whether defensive or offensive
  • It is important to get past simply being the jack of all trades. There has to be a subset of the main sets that can be run on the 'mon that are unique to it, either from its STAB combination, defensive typing or more
• Centralization: Centralization here would take everything that has been said above into account. This includes the following aspects:
  • One of (or both):
    • It's difficult to win without using the banworthy pokemon or
    • Checks and counters for this mon are insufficient, niche or uncommon to the point of forcing the decision to either prepare for the ban-worthy Pokemon uniquely or the rest of the tier
  • The Pokemon is so good at different roles/sets that preparation for one leads to a loss against the other

A great offensive STAB: V-Create and Thousand Arrows are two of the best moves in the game. I think this applies.
Many different roles? Sure. I've seen everything under the sun (sometimes literally).
It can run unique sets as well: scarf to beat offense and OHKO everything with V-Create, tinted band to kill almost everything, and -ate Judgment to lure in its usual answers, such as Imposter and Fur Coat Giratina.
Hard to prepare for? Definitely. It's actually impossible to prepare for all variants of Primal Groudon. It's the sole reason why Fur Coat Giratina/Slowbro are things (mmx might also be a reason) but even they lose to special sets.

guess I should talk some more about Magnet Pull

I admit I was a bit hasty in just calling for a ban. Honestly, though, the main problem might actually be Psychic Surge. It mandates the use of Steel-types as a blanket check to it and -ate, which naturally opens up a vulnerability to Magnet Pull on many viable teams. Other counters to it, such as Yveltal, are absolutely destroyed by -ate. If teams weren't practically forced to run Steel-types, which they are, then Magnet Pull wouldn't be as big of a problem as it is now. Because of this I think Psychic Surge, in forcing teams to run steels as role compressors, is the problem here.

Gengarite is still dumb tho like man get that trash outta here lol

 

[Rumors]

While Primal Don is definitely worth looking at, Gengarite should be first. Groudon is extrmely strong, yes, but its mere presence in team preview doesn't warp the entire match before turn 1 has even happened.

I can see it being next though as it is versatile as all heck. Most versatile Pokemon in the tier even. I mean...

What good abilities can it successfully run?

Magic Bounce - Not the best user, but can pull it off.

Magic Guard - Check

Mold Breaker/Turboblaze/Terravolt - Check and is partly why you need Fur Coat + Resist

Poison Heal - Check

Prankster - Not the best, but Check.

Regenerator - Can run an offensive variant

Unaware - Can run an offensive variant

Galvanate - Check, and does all but Aerilate pretty darn well

Adaptability - Check, though prefers Tough Claws for physical sets

Flashfire - No check

Illusion - Check that killed your Steel-types anyway

Comatose - Check

Lightning Rod/Motor Drive/Volt Absorb - No check, already immune

Sap Sipper - Eh... kinda check, not ideal

Sheer Force - Check

Storm Drain/Water Absorb - Mega-Check

Tinted Lens - Primal Check

Tough Claws - Check

Dazzling Majesty - Check

Stakeout - Check

Psychic/Electric/Misty Surge - Not the best at it, but still check

Surge Surfer - I can see a check easily. Especially to anti-Imposter a ET abusing Zekrom or something.

Soundproof - Check with T-waves

Compound Eyes - Check, though ability is situational anyway

Contrary - Check

Drizzle/Drought/Sandstream/Snow Warning - Check to Drought and Sandstream, along with any abilities to abuse those weathers. Drizzle? No so much, but could still probably Swift Swim somewhat decently. Snow Warning... well, it can, but Hail isn't great anyway.

Flare Boost - Can't be burned.

Fur Coat - Check and counters other Primaldons too.

Guts - Kinda check, since it has to be poisoned.

Harvest - Check, but situational ability

Hustle - Check

Intimidate - Check, mainly on Red Orb sets.

Levitate - Situational check

Magnet Pull - Groudon trapped this check.

Mega Launcher - Probably not.

Multiscale - Situational, but probably can do it.

No Guard - Sorta check

Normalize - Not really, no

Quick Feet - Nah, especially since it can't be burned.

Serene Grace - 100% Sacred Fire burn yo, so situational check.

Simple - Check

Skill Link - Bone Rush Check

Speed Boost - Check

Technician - I threw a Bonemerang and it came back carrying this check

Unburden - Check

Imposter - It can, but its way outclassed. Good at scaring the hell out of Illusion Gengar I suppose.

Multitype - Hard coded as a no.

Sturdy - Shedinja's better at it

Corrosion - Well, it can, but not ideal

Triage - Not really, no.

Yeah... gimmie another Pokemon than can tick off that many abilities as being viable. Sure, many of them are not optimal, but if we cut out the less optimal ones, there's still a ton vs what most other Pokemon can do.

Still though, STag first. As scary as Primaldon is, its not beating all non-counter defensive sets by merely existing.

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

Lets see. You ran encore on prankster registeel (which counters stag gar), 2 ghosts (which can't be trapped), and imposter chansey (again, cant be trapped). I think I can see why you don't have much trouble...

Lets not forget, in the replay, both of the other non-stag-proofed mons were ko'd by megagar.

I dont have problems with things because I perpare for them >.>

 

[cityscapes]

I dont have problems with things because I perpare for them >.>

yeah that's cool bro. too bad you don't run any breakers because your slots are all focused around the futile struggle of trying to beat everything in the meta. either way you can't even argue that prankster parting shot registeel is the superior option because it's not. your team is literally bent backwards trying to prevent gengarite from beating it. because of that things like this happen:

registeel used parting shot!
registeel went back to you!
you sent out another mon

opposing mon used u-turn!
opposing mon went back to opponent!
opponent sent out a breaker

yeah it's really nice that you "prepare" for gengarite but how many games have you lost as a result of some offensive gengar taking advantage of the fact that you have two ghosts, or some contrary pdon grabbing a boost off regi? honestly it seems like defensive teams are forced to run all sorts of suboptimal stuff just to beat mega gengar. seems a bit too broken for my tastes thanks

 

[Klang]

either way you can't even argue that prankster parting shot registeel is the superior option because it's not. your team is literally bent backwards trying to prevent gengarite from beating it. because of that things like this happen:

registeel used parting shot!
registeel went back to you!
you sent out another mon

opposing mon used u-turn!
opposing mon went back to opponent!
opponent sent out a breaker

yeah it's really nice that you "prepare" for gengarite but how many games have you lost as a result of some offensive gengar taking advantage of the fact that you have two ghosts, or some contrary pdon grabbing a boost off regi? honestly it seems like defensive teams are forced to run all sorts of suboptimal stuff just to beat mega gengar. seems a bit too broken for my tastes thanks

I agree with you on Gengarite but you can chill on calling Prankster Parting Shot sub-optimal garbage. Apart from helping against Gengar (and Magnet Pull on steels), which isn't an entirely invalid reason for running it by the way, it's a lot more useful if your Prankster is actually the one that's face to face with the opponent's wallbreaker, because, you know, having the slower momentum move doesn't do much good if you need to eat a Groudon V-Create to make use of it. Not only does it get you out of the situation and guard against double switches, but your recipient can tank the hit a lot more easily. And this is among other utilities like being useful for shuffling Magic Bouncers around.

This isn't to say it's superior to U-Turn, but it has valid uses and you can stop with both the arrogant tone and treating options you elect not to run as something only for garbage players tyvm.


EDIT: So this isn't completely off-topic, Gengarite should go for the reasons countlessly repeated in this thread.

As for Magnet Pull, I've been pro-ban on that in both BH and AAA for a few generations now, basically because it's the same as Gengarite but on a smaller scale. It allows for skilless removal of the opponent's core walls without any thought put into it as Gengarite does (literally only takes U-Turn on your opponent's steel type and it's gone) and generally exacerbates match-up issues in a tier where a lot of higher level games are already determined by match up. Imposter lures with Magnet Pull are also generally disgusting and while some people may argue that they're fair punishment for running Imposter there's no way to see what lures what most of the time and losing what is generally a very important team member because of thoughtless stuff like that is dumb.

However, it is considerably easier to prepare for (or should I say, it's actually possible to prepare for it) than Gengarite is. Solgaleo, for example, can elect not to run minimum speed and can escape most Magnet Pullers thanks to its good speed tier. Registeel can also be substituted for Aegislash in most cases where the item slot is needed, and Shed Shell Registeel, even though it can be knocked off, isn't terrible.

At the moment I'm kind of on the fence because while it's an uncompetitive ability at heart, the many ways it can be prevented in this generation specifically really do counterbalance the opportunity cost of running it. Magnet Pull as an ability is also relatively unexplored and it's hard to say how much potential it really has. Its uncompetitive attributes, however, do merit it being suspected alongside Gengarite.

 

[SomeIrish]

Let's try to calm down here, it's good to tell each other about their flaws and provide criticism but only to an extent. Try not to trash talk people, but give your thoughts, it's best not to be direct your response to someone when you are trying to defend something as it can make them feel like you're attacking them.
I agree that prankster parting shot has some good uses and is quite underrated and that it has it's flaws. It seems to me like it's benefits are more suited for a stall team which most as we know don't run, leading many to believe that there is little merit from such a tactic. Please try to be more open minded

 

[RNGIsFatal]

Making this low quality post on flip phone so please bear with me.
As for now my opinion on Gengarite has not changed at all; but do not get confused however, I think it is suspectworthy but I am not sure if it really needs a ban.
For Magnet Pull, although I disagree with suspect, I can see points from both sides with different opinions. I am not sure if this bad phone will allow me to make another post with 10M data limit while I have no access to computer in the trip, so all I have left to say for next week or so is that I believe Shadow Tag forces intense preparation that results in all support mons to sacrifice their moveslot for switching move which still leaves them vulnerable when they lack Magic Bounce, but Magnet Pull is not forcing you to not use recovery and hazard control moves and whatsoever, and again, just because your entire defensive core is gone because of one Steel type being trapped and KOed means that your team consists of that shrinked size of defense core at a cost of running something else. Also if you think trapping is 'uncompetitive', then with the same logic Magnezone which has Magnet Pull should be banned in OU metagame because it traps Skarmory, Celeteela, and Ferrothorn, leaving all competitive OU teams vulnerable to Landorus-T, Kartana, Tapu Bulu, and others. Therefore, I say suspect Gengarite but do not suspect Magnet Pull.

 

[Rumors]

Don't compare to BH Magnet Pull to OU Magnezone, it's nowhere near the same thing.

Magnezone is one Pokemon with a limited moveset and, while it can trap every steel except Aegislash and prevos, it can't beat them all. For example, if I understand correctly, Ferrothorn beats it if its not HP Fire, Heatran and opposing Magnezone can beat it if not HP Ground, Steelix can beat it if not either HP, and I'm sure there's plenty more. Additionally, Magnezone doesn't have any noteworthy set-up or team support moves, so if it can't directly beat whatever is trapped, it's not doing anything except wasting time. Best it can do in that situation is slow pivot something in safely. Its also worth noting Magnezone's stats aren't too amazing (though maybe I'm spoiled in BH's BSTs.)

But for us? Magnet Pull can be slapped on anything and its moveset can be custom tailored to be able to pick and choose which Steel-type Pokemon to defeat. And the set doesn't need to even be able to just nuke the wall to make way for a different sweeper. What's stopping a Magnet Puller from trapping a passive Steel type and using it to set-up a full load of hazards? Or boosting whatever stats it wants to max? While trap and set-up isn't common in the tier currently, its by no means an alien strategy, especially since it was (Mega) Gengar's flagship set in Gen V and early Gen VI and was Imposter-proof to boot.

No, our Magnet Pull is hardly comparable to standard tier's Magnet Pull and is probably in the same situation for most, if not all, the other OMs too. Be for or against a Magnet Pull suspect, but don't compare our situation to an OU Pokemon please.

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

People still having the trapping trauma ?
How is Magnet Pull considered OP, its weaker than last Gen cuz ;

Walling -ate is not as important anymore.
--> Less steeltypes arround

Core Enforcer and Spectral Thief are viable support moves,
--> Less Knock off, keep your Shed Shell longer

Solgaleo, a reasonable fast steel type added,
--> Faster than P-Don, Fighting neutral

Full EVs, mostly BST Speed counts.
--> No surprise outspeeding anymore


Magnet Pull is niche ability at best

I dont worry about trapping 31 SpD Kartana.
A Dialga with a better ability might beat its trapper or atleast free itself via Core Enforcer.

Registeel / Celesteela/ Ferrothorn are the only potential pokes to get trapped by Magnet Pull.
But Pranksters will have Destiny Bond / Parting Shot while Assault Vest will have U-Turn,
Some run Flash Fire, Magic Bounce or even Shed Shell to avoid getting trapped.


Anchor Shot / Thousand Waves / infestation are alternatives, giving up one moveslot is less than 1 ability slot.

 

[ElMustacho]

I want to share this dumb as hell Deo-s set that helps Shadow Tag a lot more than it is supposed to do alone.

Deoxys-Speed @ Eject Button
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Skill Swap
- Recycle
- Strength Sap
- Baton Pass

Basically if something touches it (bar Judgment/Revelation Dance/ not-Normal priority(unless Psychic Terrain is up)) it dies to Gengar then. Not even U-turn/Volt Switch/Core Enforcer can escape from this strategy (Eject Button negates their effect and Core Enforcer doesn't turn off a manually switched in ability). Gengar can then Encore into U-turn or whatever and dispatch the opponent. If Deoxys is KOed by anything not being Volt Switch / U-turn after using Skill Swap, the opponent ends up Normalized against Shadow Tag Gengar. Recycle, Strenght Sap and Baton Pass are completely optional and may be replaced (Taunt maybe?). It can survive V-create form Groudon (due to normalize) to show an example of durability and can return to duty with Strenght Sap, Recycle and Skill Swap. It must be played with extreme caution but it really cuts the number of counter Stag has. And you cannot really see this coming given how dumb it is on paper.

 

[E4 Flint]

Interesting discussion on both sides, though please try to keep it closer to the topic at hand before talking about any future suspect possibilities.
I have set up the poll here. You may continue the discussion there or here. The poll will be open until around this current time of posting, Wednesday June 7th.
Thanks all

 

[morogrim]

My opinion on MagPull and STag:

1. Magnet Pull

Magnet Pull is an ability that despite being completely legal to use even in gen6, it was still looked upon as a gimmick at most. What's more interesting is that this was when literally nobody ran Shed Shell on their Steel walls. Imo, the reason for this was that back in gen6, Prankster steels usually ran Parting Shot, which effectively made Magnet Pull useless unless it was used for an Improof core (ex: Tinted Dialga + MagPull Fairy core). Currently in gen7, there are 2 main things that make Magnet Pull strong. The first cause is the nerf to Prankster where running Parting Shot isn't that good anymore just because any Dark type mon could switch in for free and suck up all of the momentum you were trying to gain. The second reason is the existence of Pdon in the tier. Now you might say that there are many viable MagPull users that aren't Pdon and can still do the job of removing Steel walls, but at the same time Pdon can still be a huge threat to the opponent even if it cannot trap the Steel walls for whatever reason. The other MagPull users are not necessarily on the same boat when it comes to this and are usually sitting ducks if they cannot trap and eliminate the Steel walls (take for example Mega Garchomp which is pretty weak and easily wallable by common physical walls when it carries MagPull as its ability). While Pdon will (hopefully) get suspected in the future, we are currently discussing a potential suspect for Gengarite + MagPull, which means that my second reason still stands for this particular discussion. For these reasons I believe MagPull should be suspected. I should however mention that if Pdon was suspected and banned before this discussion, my reasoning for justifying a suspect test on MagPull would have been weakened. This being said, I really think that Pdon and Pgre should have been the current topic of discussion for suspect tests.


2. Gengarite

In a meta where role compression is even more important than ever due to the high number of threats that teams have to prepare for, Gengarite Mega Gengar has found a place to truly shine. By removing even 1 key wall from the opposing team, STag Mega Gengar can often secure the win for its team. But why wasn't Gengarite as big of a threat in gen6, in a meta where once again, Shed Shell wasn't even run on walls? The first reason has already been mentioned (walls are even more valuable than before in the current meta as they have more roles to play for the team, hence removing one wall could usually lead the opposing team to a loss), so I won't go too in depth with it. Second, once again, Prankster was nerfed and Parting Shot isn't as viable as it used to be. Finally, the removal of the EV limit has allowed Mega Gengar to stay in on moves it normally could not, and the addition of Strength Sap has allowed it to take the same physical moves repeatedly and be able to trap and eliminate threats that it couldn't in gen6. I think that Gengarite should also be suspected.

 

[Lcass4919]

im just going to chime in that magnet pull isn't op, or broken. its uncompetative. it removes skill from the match, even if its in a lesser degree.

think about chatter. chatter wasnt even close to broken. but it was uncompetative since it created so many setup chances, on top of damaging the opponent. magnet pull isnt overpowered at all. but just like chatter, and moody, its a skill-removal aspect to a severe degree (confuse ray although causing confusion, doesnt do much more then that for example.) that dramatically changes the flow of the battle in a way that isn't determined through skill, rather a unfair method (confusion, evasion, trapping), is deemed uncompetative. this is the "logic" behind what got moody and chatter banned, and although its to a lesser degree, as ive mentioned before, magnet pull still has this trait.

the reason why imposter doesn't follow uncompetative is because you have control of your teams synergy, meaning you have full control over imposter. only saying this because its a common(and bad-no offense-) counterargument to this.

 

[fsk]

Several users have already voiced the concern about Pdon. My stance on Magnet Pull is similar to them.

Is the Pokémon (ban worthy with no specific ability or moveset), the move (ban worthy with many Pokémon or abilities), the ability (ban worthy with many Pokémon or moves), or the strategy or combination (a unique combination that every individual element is not banned worthy, but when put together is ban worthy) the ban-worthy element? It's BH so we gotta ask ourselves what is the really ban-worthy element before we do suspects.

In this recent hatred created around trapping, I have several reminders:
1) Trapping itself is not an argument for being broken, and it really depends on how they are effective. Shadow Tag is not banned in Ubers but banned in OU, while the essential difference is how effective in relevance to the rest of the metagame. Do not simply compare it to the broken "free set-up generator" chatter, or evasion since they are different. Imo, whether a certain trapping deserves ban/suspect depends on its effectiveness and brokenness.

2) I would again emphasize that Pdon is the most effective user of Magnet Pull since it receives both fire and ground STABs and can still do considerable damage while many other niche Magpull users are dedicated and limited in many ways and would most likely just sitting there doing nothing major if no steel walls to trap. Indeed Magpull is stronger this gen when Prankster Parting shot is nerfed but you really should question yourself: If trapping steel walls to make way for heavy hitters (Spec Ray/Spec Diancie/MMY or many others) is deemed unhealthy, is it Magpull on any passable ground/fire stab mons that is suspect worthy, or is it just Pdon. Another possible reason is that the role compression in the current metagame is insane and therefore losing the steel type causes a lot of trouble.

Tinted Lens Banded Pdon V-create requires bulky resists in FC Zygod or Giratina's level of physical bulk to avoid being 2HKOed, while Stakeout/Magic Guard/Sheer Force lure/Ate Lure takes care of most of the walls that deal with Tinted set. I'm not going in length to talk about what pressure of Pdon exerts on teambuilding here since many addressed them already. The presence of Pdon in the metagame is one of the major reason of the role compression.

On another note, if I have a free choice I would suspect Pdon first and then gengarite since how broken Encore-Perish-Trap is will depend on the degree of role compression that the metagame threats exert on teambuilding. But if such an order is not possible I would say suspect gengarite still. The perish trap M-gengar set is proved to be a big threat and whether gengarite deserves a ban or not I see it as suspect worthy.

Edit: In response to several posts below, the above is not based on "pure speculation" and I am not arguing against Magnet Pull suspect/ban based on potential Pdon ban (plus I play a different version of BH without Pdon at a different place). Simply put, if you believe Pdon is the problem but not Magnet Pull, blanket removal of Magnet Pull is simply the wrong action to take because it invalidates the philosophy of inclusion.

 

[Rumors]

Just as a reminder in general, whether Primaldon is the problem for a number of things related to Gengarite or Magnet Pull or not, please do not argue "don't ban" for things on the grounds that Primaldon might be banned later. We can't know for sure that it will be banned, so its best to assume it won't until its suspect, if it comes, proves otherwise.

 

[Funbot28]

Just as a reminder in general, whether Primaldon is the problem for a number of things related to Gengarite or Magnet Pull or not, please do not argue "don't ban" for things on the grounds that Primaldon might be banned later. We can't know for sure that it will be banned, so its best to assume it won't until its suspect, if it comes, proves otherwise.

The issue I have with this sentiment is that the potential banning of Pdon does actually impact the viability of Stag Gar and Magnet Pull. Where the former would have a more difficult time having a role of trapping passive threats due to their being less of them in a Pdonless meta (or at least the type walls that are being used currently in which Stag Gar can take advantage of), and the latter loses one of its best abusers, greatly influencing how Mpull is implemented upon certain teams. While I do not oppose a suspect to Gengarite and Mpull, the idea that Pdon does not play a role in their viability is just not true, and is why I would like a suspect for it first since I believe its the more pressing issue. From there we can judge if Stag Gar/Mpull still deserve to be tested, since we would be having a more accurate depiction of there "brokeness". No other threat currently inflicts as much role compression as Pdon imho, and this is the core issue.

I also do not believe trapping to be inherently uncompetitive, but thats a conversation for a different type of thread.

 

[Rumors]

I never said that Primaldon doesn't play a role in their viability. Rather, its silly to make decisions based on a future decision that may or may not go the way you assume, or may never even get the chance to be made.

Will Primaldon be suspected instead of Gengarite? Unlikely, as the process for Gengarite and Magnet Pull has already begun and it seems 50/50 split at best for swapping to Primaldon. Will it be suspected next? Probably, good chance of being next. Is it absolutely certain? No, there's a large camp of anti-Shell Smashers who want that next. If Primaldon is suspected, will it be banned? Fair chance yes, but I personally feel that, assuming I didn't vote and simply watched, it's a 60/40 chance of ban vs no ban.

So, if Flint doesn't swap to Primaldon before Shadow Tag, please do not argue or vote based on what may happen in a future possible suspect, because it may not happen as you expect/hope. Suspects have failed to result in bans before, such as Species clauses and Mega-Rayquaza, and dozens upon dozens of serious discussions have never even led to a suspect test, such as APS or post -ate clause -ate abilities.

For the same reason, things might not change in the meta as you expect. For example, role compression is not a Pdon exclusive and has been around since people developed nasty as hell -ate sets in response to the -ate clause, if not longer, and there's no guarantee that role compression will be "fixed" by its removal. So don't argue or vote on future meta speculation as it is, quite simply, pure speculation.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

Hey I just wanna toss this,out there because its a complaint I've seen a lot on PS and here. Y'all do know just because there's something on the block for testing before something doesn't mean that it isn't on the radar, right? Everyone keeps whining "oh Pdon needs suspect first" but that doesn't make the trapping shit being dealt with now balanced. It also doesn't mean Pdon won't ever be suspected. Don't protest this suspect or whatever just because you hate something else more lol

 

[willdbeast]

Hey I just wanna toss this,out there because its a complaint I've seen a lot on PS and here. Y'all do know just because there's something on the block for testing before something doesn't mean that it isn't on the radar, right? Everyone keeps whining "oh Pdon needs suspect first" but that doesn't make the trapping shit being dealt with now balanced. It also doesn't mean Pdon won't ever be suspected. Don't protest this suspect or whatever just because you hate something else more lol

The argument isn't that they don't like the order of suspecting so they'll deliberately "sabotage" it or something, the argument is that (at least as far as magpull is concerned) the ability may not be the broken element of the strategy as a whole, so other potential suspects may be more appropriate to get to the root of the problem ie in simplistic terms: arguing pdon is what makes magpull pdon broken.

 

[ElMustacho]

Comments on Shadow Tag: it's a terror if you misplay or if you don't have hard counters but the Encore-Perish-Trapper isn't the only thing it can pull off: you can use it as a member of a Baton Pass chain while the opponent is normalized or crippled by any other means. It just spam Acupressure, then it Substitutes, then it passes everything to a Dark type and this last one goes to town sweeping everything with +6 860bp STAB Power Trip, and it has room to Imprison Haze+Dbond (also the dark type might run whatever ability it wants). For example M-dos OHKOes everything bar Shedinja. And you can just run Mold Breaker.

Even by trying to argument that "Shadow Tag Gengar has checks and counters" then I'm sorry but you are gonna have a bad time; you can pull off a strategy that removes conventional Pokemons that usually check or counter it. That Deoxys I posted some replies ago is an example, but other exist. You can run Reflect Type to avoid the 3HKO from any viable Revelation Dance user.

252+ SpA Yveltal Revelation Dance vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD (Dark/Flying) Gengar-Mega: 66-78 (20.3 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Revelation Dance vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD (Water) Gengar-Mega: 84-99 (25.9 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

You can run Baton Pass to escape a Pursuit Trapper. You can use Guard Split to steal the bulk from a wall (obtaining a bulk of 60/115/122 from a Registeel which isn't bad at all with max EV). Taunt to stop Parting Shot/Baton Pass. Protect+Disable to avoid a Core Enforcer/U-turn/whatever. Soak on Ghosts to trap them. The only fair point it has is that you can run it only once.

Comments on Magnet Pull: more specific yet more general. Being its primal user Groudon-Primal (pun intended), you can generally deal with that due to Flash Fire, Primordial Sea, Prankster, being Aegislash, being faster than it (it's just Kartana, Solgaleo and Metagross-Mega), Shed Shell, King Shield and exploiting its crippling weakness to Water Shuriken.
But Groudon-Primal isn't the only viable user. E4 Flint used it effectively on Reshiram here. Mewtwo-Mega-X uses it just as good as Groudon since MMX totally can run Adamant due to 130 base Speed, still has SE STAB on Steels, and he can really just stick with V-create with results comparable to Groudon-Primal.

Conclusions: Shadow Tag needs to be banned. We just started to scratch its possibilities and counter play to today's standards will develop. It will come a day where we'll be forced to prepare to Gengar or prepare to the meta.
Magnet Pull: It works on 20% of the tier. Sometimes. Stakeout and Tinted Lens bend the meta much more than Magnet Pull. Do not ban, and not even worth the suspect to me.

 

[morogrim]

Even by trying to argument that "Shadow Tag Gengar has checks and counters" then I'm sorry but you are gonna have a bad time; you can pull off a strategy that removes conventional Pokemons that usually check or counter it. That Deoxys I posted some replies ago is an example, but other exist. You can run Reflect Type to avoid the 3HKO from any viable Revelation Dance user.

252+ SpA Yveltal Revelation Dance vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD (Dark/Flying) Gengar-Mega: 66-78 (20.3 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Revelation Dance vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD (Water) Gengar-Mega: 84-99 (25.9 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

What on earth does Revelation Dance have to do with the current discussion? We are talking about Gengarite, not Normalize. While Revelation Dance does indeed do damage to STag Mega Gengar, it's not the only possible way to damage it (Revelation Dance is something that is mainly used to damage Normalize Gengar after getting Entrained). Plus, Yveltal and Kyogre do not stay in to use Revelation Dance vs. Gengarite Gengar, they try to pivot out. I doubt Yveltal would even try to stay in to use Knock Off on Gengar since it has plenty of ways to survive and PerishTrap it (King's Shield and Strength Sap are two good examples).

Even in the case that you are mentioning, the only scenario where I could see the Yveltal or Kyogre use Revelation Dance is when they are predicting a Gengar switchin, in which case after you switch into their Revelation Dance you would have less than 50% HP left. In this situation, you could either Encore and die or Reflect Type and let them pivot out. In either case, this Reflect Type gimmick of yours has failed. Also as a side note, the Yveltal doesn't even need to pivot out since even a resisted Revelation Dance would KO the Gengar most of the time (guaranteed after Rocks or minimal chip damage). Literally the only scenario where your gimmick would work is if the Kyogre decides to stay and use Revelation Dance again after your switchin...

252 SpA Yveltal Revelation Dance vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega: 242-288 (74.6 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Yveltal Revelation Dance vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega: 60-72 (18.5 - 22.2%) -- possible 5HKO

Edit: I am not saying that Gengarite is fine, I am just saying that this particular argument is completely irrelevant to the current topic.

 

[ElMustacho]

What on earth does Revelation Dance have to do with the current discussion? We are talking about Gengarite, not Normalize. While Revelation Dance does indeed do damage to STag Mega Gengar, it's not the only possible way to damage it (Revelation Dance is something that is mainly used to damage Normalize Gengar after getting Entrained). Plus, Yveltal and Kyogre do not stay in to use Revelation Dance vs. Gengarite Gengar, they try to pivot out. I doubt Yveltal would even try to stay in to use Knock Off on Gengar since it has plenty of ways to survive and PerishTrap it (King's Shield and Strength Sap are two good examples).

Even in the case that you are mentioning, the only scenario where I could see the Yveltal or Kyogre use Revelation Dance is when they are predicting a Gengar switchin, in which case after you switch into their Revelation Dance you would have less than 50% HP left. In this situation, you could either Encore and die or Reflect Type and let them pivot out. In either case, this Reflect Type gimmick of yours has failed. Also as a side note, the Yveltal doesn't even need to pivot out since even a resisted Revelation Dance would KO the Gengar most of the time (guaranteed after Rocks or minimal chip damage). Literally the only scenario where your gimmick would work is if the Kyogre decides to stay and use Revelation Dance again after your switchin...

252 SpA Yveltal Revelation Dance vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega: 242-288 (74.6 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Yveltal Revelation Dance vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega: 60-72 (18.5 - 22.2%) -- possible 5HKO

Edit: I am not saying that Gengarite is fine, I am just saying that this particular argument is completely irrelevant to the current topic.

I thought there was a section where I listed Normalize as a good way to help Gengar.
Must have forgotten a paragraph while copyediting before/after posting.
My bad.
Long story short pairing Normalize to STag lets Gengar bypass some checks, and since Revelation Dance counters Normalize I listed a check to that move.

 

[Ren]

hl and myself have used Magnet Pull on other secret things to reasonable success. During the second BH CLC, Flint came up with the idea of Magnet Pull Imprison Reshiram and after using the same set for the CLC, I can assure you that Magnet Pull is indeed the problem. While Primal Groudon is the pinnacle of an offensive powerhouse due to its colossal attack stat in conjunction with it's excellent Fire typing, granting it STAB on the most powerful and spammable attack in the BH metagame (V-Create), I feel like everyone is heavily underestimating the power of Magnet Pull in itself. Yes, Primal Groudon is the best user of Magnet Pull. There's no question about that. However, there are more options that can and do take advantage of ways to bypass Primal Groudon's Magnet Pull specifically.

Is Primal Groudon unhealthy for the metagame? In my opinion, yes. It has the second highest attack stat in the metagame and STAB on the most powerful and spammable move in V Create. You can run a Band Tinted Lens set with Sun support that has very few answers. But Primal Groudon doesn't give Magnet Pull the uncompetitiveness that it has. It's undeniably the best abuser but there are other abusers that everybody is ignoring, which is a big mistake. Don't discuss Magnet Pull under the impression that Primal Groudon is its only abuser and don't redirect discussion to Primal Groudon on that basis. Magnet Pull is inherently uncompetitive, due to trapping and eliminating answers to threats in the metagame. The majority of the arguments I've seen in this thread against Magnet Pull seem to only work when you treat the only Magnet Pull user in the tier as Primal Groudon, such as running max speed Solgaleo which is stopped by Magnet Pull M-Blaziken (which isn't garbage - It's powerful, quick and also has a nice Magnet Pull typing. It isn't Primal Groudon but don't underestimate it.) Yes, you can go back to running Regenvest M-Metagross just to outspeed M-Blaziken, but you're compromising bulk. And due to the Reshiram set that Flint invented, you can't just go back to running U-Turn if Primal Groudon is banned and Magnet Pull is allowed.

Trapping, regardless of what it traps, is inherently uncompetitive in BH. Is running Prankster Pshot or Prankster Baton Pass terrible? By all means, go ahead - I run it too and I love using it. But Magnet Pull makes running slow momentum on a Steel-type Pokemon that isn't carrying Shed Shell a death sentence. And honestly, a staple of the metagame in Regenerator Assault Vest Solgaleo suffers from it. You can't run both Assault Vest and Shed Shell - To avoid getting trapped you'd have to compromise the greatest appeal of the set in the first place which is Solgaleo's amazing special bulk in conjunction with Assault Vest. Is this not a testament to how uncompetitive Magnet Pull is?

No, I'm not saying Primal Groudon isn't broken. I think it is, if I haven't made that clear. But right now, the discussion is about Magnet Pull which is an entirely different issue. And even if Primal Groudon is one of the best abusers, there are many more in action and banning Primal Groudon won't keep Magnet Pull from becoming a problem, so let's all do everyone a favor and stop pretending that it will.

 

[motherlove]

Heyo just wanna say a few things regarding the magpull debate thing concerning the magpull answers thing.

- Regarding max speed solgaleo, for one it's significantly (like, significantly) worse than specially defensive Solgaleo. And second, magpull don commonly runs scarf because it gives him better utility against the rest of the tier.
- Assuming you get 5 hits on water shuriken, you need above 200 base special attack to OHKO groudon from full (again, that's assuming 5 hits) so water shuriken is p much irrelevant to the argument.
- Shed shell isn't the most reliable way to deal with Magnet pull for two reasons. One is that it's so easily knocked off on any team built around magpull, especially on a mon like registeel which is somewhat common to send on maudino or some shit. Second is that you're severely hindered by your inability to run safety goggles on any non mb set.
- Ground attacks are a thing so yeah, flash fire's cool, but not really a reliable way to deal with magpull, especially considering that groudon is the most common abuser rn (it doesn't do shit against mmy for example).
- Early in the meta, when CFZs were still a thing, I was actually running magnet pull on Dark types as they are immune to parting shot and can do the job just as well with z moves (also run pursuit on top for extra kek). Psychic terrain support is also quite common and super easy to maintain.
- Prankster baton pass is pretty garbage.
- Anyone remember that super obnoxious bp magpull team that a lot of teams auto lost to?

Then again to act like I'm not super on sided, I do want to add that magnet pull has become weaker in ev limit. It's harder to OHKO things and you're not outspeeding everything anymore just by having speed evs (even if that only applies to solgaleo).
KS also seems like a decent way to deal with it which ppl should prob try running.