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Why is Aeg only C- while jirachi is C+. Jirachi is just a bootleg version of it. Aeg's steel type, and insane bulk makes it arguably the best fairy check, and can wall many defensive stealth rock arceus, lugia, deoxys, both mega mewtwo and even diancie. Although its outclassed by some pokes, it absolutely deserves a Rank above C- (fardin) (and lets not forget about king shield)
 

Josh

=P
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This is my last reply because you still don't get it and you're still being a condescending asshole.

Okay my bad for not doing this before. I ran the nom by Chloe and she said it was fine. Lol I didn't know any better there was no need for you to be an asshead. Don't tell me to not play victim when i wasn't in the first place. You were calling out my nom in a half-assed way that focused more on the fact that I was new to this and how to prove me wrong instead of actually informing me on how to do it in a polite manner and not being psychotic.
so if you want to go ahead and deny my nom, try "splurting" out facts about why jirachi shouldnt move up instead of trying to make this a personal attack about how i dont know how to do this.
Your ignorance is hurting me. Genuinely hurting me. "Not being psychotic" "no need for you to be an asshead" etc. EVERYTHING YOU SAY IS WORDED AS AN ATTACK. YOU ARE WRONG. GET THAT IN YOUR HEAD SO I CAN STOP WASTING TIME HERE.

If you would argue that Jirachi is arguably the worst C+, then you need to get your brain checked. Ditto is worse yes, but what does Genesect? The same role with less chance to flinch? Cool it gets Extreme Speed and Jirachi doesn't, but what does that have to do with anything? My bad for being new to nominating something, honestly, but no need for you to be a genuine asshole. Now that you've clarified this to me in a very condescending way, I'll elaborate more.
Everything. Is. An. Attack. Stop. Being. A. Numbskull. Genesect is not the same role. I get you barely play ag but I even explained what genesect is in my post so you obviously didn't actually read it; it's a darkrai counter for offense, the best one. I'm comparing jirachi's VIABILITY to blissey's VIABILITY because they are in the same subrank. They do incomparable roles but to quote you "you obviously dont know how noms work either. nomming a pokemon up or down a rank all depends on facts about said pokemon that put it above other or at the same rank as or below certain pokemon." Even your definition is outright wrong. You're trying to take this as a purely factual problem; it's not. This isn't just numbers. You can't spew facts out and make magic happen. Viability rankings are literally just comparison charts. The fact you even mentioned choice band genesect really shows a lot. Your entire next paragraph is litterred with complete trash. Clefable doesn't need to run flame orb to counter rai, lol...... bringing up points such as genesect is outclassed as an ekiller is even worse than as a band user because genesect typically doesn't even run espeed. It's niche is a darkrai counter that also does stuff like pivot into lugia and have a u turn that actually deals damage unlike rachi, not whatever random sets you invented in that post.

This post comes off very angry and you need to understand I have no issue with you (felt the need to clear that up because you take everything personally fsr) and the nom itself is reasonable but your post is just so passive aggressive and so, for lack of a better word, wrong. And you are playing the victim.

Cryptis the thing is s ranks have plenty of common checks. Ekiller has true counters and some of them are below, hell there's a xern counter that's more reliable the in b- (poisonceus). I still don't think rachi should leave the c ranks but my nigga Gunner Rohan is letting this shit go wild so w/e
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
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Why is Aeg only C- while jirachi is C+. Jirachi is just a bootleg version of it. Aeg's steel type, and insane bulk makes it arguably the best fairy check, and can wall many defensive stealth rock arceus, lugia, deoxys, both mega mewtwo and even diancie. Although its outclassed by some pokes, it absolutely deserves a Rank above C- (fardin) (and lets not forget about king shield)
Sorry to respond in the middle of all this, but essentially you're just massively overrating how good Aegislash is. It can check a lot of stuff, but for the most part it's stuff that other mons can handle better and more effectively or simply isn't too common. It only fits on serious stall or semistall builds which is a problem in itself because of how incredibly flawed the playstyle is (needs a good matchup just to get on its feet) and even then I can count the number of decent builds with it on one hand (fardin stall which is the classic pray for matchup, there's one other team I can't remember off the top of my head). Then there's the previously stated stuff in noms about losing to all the common mons etc etc. It's possible that we've undervalued it and it can go up in the future with actual metagame development, but, considering the current state, everyone was pretty unanimous on Aegislash not deserving a decent ranking. Also not sure if (fardin) at the end means you're fardin which is why I refer to it as fardin stall and not your stall (maybe)
 
Why is Aeg only C- while jirachi is C+. Jirachi is just a bootleg version of it.
Disagree. Jirachi and Aegislash have two entirely different niches, Jirachi can paraflinch and has access to slightly beefier wishes than Clefable if you decide to invest into HP.
Aeg's steel type
There are other, better Steel types, like Steelceus, which has Calm Mind and Judgement, allowing it to easier deal with GeoXern before it can even become a threat. Hell, even Genescet's better due to not being completely helpless if Darkrai is brought into the equation.
insane bulk makes it arguably the best fairy check,
Poor HP holds it back. Also, most Diancies tend to carry Earth Power, making Aegislash a non-issue for it
252 SpA Diancie Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash: 178-210 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Diancie Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash: 282-332 (87 - 102.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Although its outclassed by some pokes, it absolutely deserves a Rank above C- (fardin)
It's directly outclassed by Steelceus in all departments but defenses. It also requires being paralyzed just to get important numbers against support Fairyceus. Also, what about Fardin? If you're refering to Fardin stall, it's still possible to beat. Take this from someone who's beaten Fardin stall.
(and lets not forget about king shield)
What about it? One move alone should not be used to describe how viable a Pokemon can be.

And, Megazard ninja'd me by a minute rip
 
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Chloe. Megazard ;)

Proposing Moving Arceus-Ground back to A

After realizing that all 3 Arceus-Ground sets, Swords Dance, Support, and Calm Mind are all equally viable and comparable at A-, I think that Arceus-Ground should be put at A.

Explanation of Sets:

Swords Dance

Set
Swords Dance (Arceus-Ground) @ Earth Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Recover / Extreme Speed

Swords Dance Ground-ceus compares with the other top Swords Dance Arceus Formes, Ghost and Normal, as a top Sweeper. Being able to beat Arceus Normal (without Frustration) after stealth rock ~70% of the time and be the only Arceus Forme to beat support primal groudon 1v1, the Swords Dance variant is certainly a top tier threat. EdgeQuake coverage hits 95% of the tier at least neutrally.

Set
Support (Arceus-Ground) @ Earth Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 240 Def / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Defog / Stealth Rock / Roar
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic

Support Ground-Ceus is one of the most reliable Defoggers/Stealth Rock setter in the tier, being able to check most physical threats while providing solid power with judgement. This set is the most efficient at checking primal Groudon, where judgement is super effective. In addition, immunity to Thunder-Wave and a low attack value enables this set to soft check Klefki.

Set
Calm Mind (Arceus-Ground) @ Earth Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 72 HP / 180 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Judgment
- Ice Beam
- Recover

Calm Mind Arceus-Ground is a top contender for a Calm Mind Arceus Variant, with Fantastic Coverage of Ice Beam alongside Judgement. Unfortunately, Judgement's inability to hit floating mons hinders the power of the set, but the coverage of ice beam makes up for it.

All in all, the versatility and the viability of Arceus-Ground should put the God at A rank.
While I acknowledge my arguments aren't complete and probably have holes, I think this a worthy subject up for more discussion.
 
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Mq

It's Megaqwer's Time!
You just literally said why Forretress shouldn't be C-....

More physical bulk than Skarmory
You have just about 10 base hp more than skarmory, and same defensive base stats, lol not a big difference.

-Okay defensive typing
The thing that makes forrestress different from ferrothorn, (both are 4x fire) is that the accessibility to moves, ferrothorn can spread leech seed to annoy the foe, but for forretress, you are dependent on your volt switch to a safer pokemon.

Niche in being able to set hazards (any type other than Webs in fact) and Rapid Spin
Well, they are better hazard setters out there, like why would u use this over ferrothorn who gets acess to leech seed/spikes/sr and rapid spin is depended on matchups, (you can't defog while ghosts live) and that makes hazard removal more harder.

Slow Volt Switch is good for safe switches
Agreed.

Poor Special Defense really holds it back from doing its job that well
Yup, you said it yourself.This is like weak to every single special mon, plus darkrai's bait if leaded with it

- Dies horribly to any kind of fire
- Even a mildly disgruntled turtle can outrun it, which can make setting hazards difficult for it
- Gyro Balls off uninvested base 90 Attack are relatively weak, even if paralyzed
When you run a bug type, you take the risk of being weak to fire, have some horrible hp stats and be slow as turtles......

I'd say to keep Forrestress Unranked or D rank as this gets totally outclasses by ferrothorn, well you can say that 'hey!Forretress has rapid spin but ferrothorn doesnt!" but lol, defog is much better and steel type hazard removers are mostly horrible (bar exca)

Ty

Please note:Hourai deleted his post :/
 
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MZ

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Ok so Chloe and I have been discussing some of these noms and these are where we stand (well most of them, a few are my own opinions). If anybody disagrees pls reply because we are hoping to update in a few days and keep shifting more things out of TBD. Also, some of these reflect the idea that the really really niche shit like regular sableye and whimsicott will be in D and everything else will automatically get up to C- which should explain a bit of the inflation (why isn't momo going to D etc). I've even floated the idea of being even stricter with the ranks, cutting out D shit and starting the bottom at C- but people love their toys and that's not a bad thing.

Alomomola + Amoongus: Not much changed for these two, they've seen some success on Chloe teams, they're incredibly niche but work at what they do i.e. walling very specific things and helping to regen stall out keys, they both have flaws with being slightly not bulky and losing to some common stuff, and they should both be completely fine to go back to C- rank. Least interesting nom

Bronzong: This has never been all that bad, it's just SRer that changes what these mons normally check and trades losing to Pdon/Darkrai in exchange for beating xern a lot better and checking plenty of other random things. I seriously encourage anybody to think about this while teambuilding, it's unique enough to stand out so you know when it belongs and that should let it go to C+ imo. Rocks utility is a pretty crowded job in AG but Zong makes it work with the right support. Also shoutouts Gunner Rohan for teaching me to run swagger in the last slot, it's huge for annoying things like Steelceus which otherwise just sit on it.

Forretress: Unrank. There are lots of good hazard setters. There are good suicide leads. I recommend you use just about anything else, there's really not much to this and the lack of any team anybody I've spoken to has seen that uses Forry in some genuinely unique way reinforces this.

Garchomp: Nobody is sure why this was ranked in the first place but apparently I agreed to it for some reason I guess we just gonna unrank now

Glalie: Good god this is niche. You need to start it out on a team built to support it, it needs to get lucky with Moody boosts, and it also seriously appreciates getting a good matchup to put in any sort of work. The arguments on this thread really haven't helped it and since the clear consensus seems to be coming out as against Glalie, I think that C- seems like a fair place for it for now. e: for all the glalie supporters, talked about this and C rank also seems like a potential placing but I'd be highly against higher

Mega Lucario: This is just my own nom I thought while writing this but sure, I've used enough mega luke on webs and seen it off webs to say that we're fine putting it in C- rank. It's not so stupidly unusable like Palkia but it clearly suffers from having no useful bulk or much defensive utility outside of checking Xerneas. SD can become a real pain late game and I dont remember if it was cata or cryptis who was testing it without webs but it didn't seem so bad as needing some support and really careful play to get an opportunity to set up. It's certainly not what I'd call a great mon but leaving it in a lower rank should suffice.

Mega Scizor: This is also a pretty unique mon, its talents are just a bit wasted. We dont have any other legit slow pivots since Yveltal doesn't really count, and Scizor works as that and a utility check. However it would pair incredibly well with mega ray/gar/diancie but u can't do that so suck it and it's one of those mons that can help check and cover a lot of niche things but doesn't actually help defensively versus all the top tier strong as shit stuff. C rank should suffice, it's far from the worst thing I've used. C rank as a whole should probably be renamed to "niche steel types rank"

Terrakion: Ok it basically just checks ekiller but there've been legit teams with this (mostly chloe again) and it has a few funny things like outrunning standard geoxern that only bothered to creep for jirachi, if it wasn't so weak this would probably be a solid mid tier threat but neither chloe nor I have any issues starting this baby out in C rank.

Zapdos: My own nom again here but it's a bit more of a question. I think BP sucks and is rly terrible for sure but if people use BP and they use zapdos on it, then do they think it should be ranked as something to actually use? If it gets use, I have no problem with this getting D (no higher probably), people who think this makes you safe vs Megaray are crazy but it's a legit thing for BP so why not throw it down there.

Zekrom: This is a strong mon but splashability and effectiveness are a bit lacking here. It's hard to justify fitting a Zekrom onto your team, mostly because of the second point that it has absolutely nothing good to lock itself into and only scarf is worth a damn. The main reason I want it so low is really because nothing goes right for this and every game that it's totally effective is marred by another one that had to work around it not having anything good to click. It's a slightly better 50/50 for you than Swagger, but Zekrom was far to highly placed previously and C rank seems like a far better placement for it.

also arc ground should move back to A for sure but I dont feel like adding to Cata's post
 
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Quick nom
Base don B- = B+

Sets
Offensive

Groudon @ Lum Berry
Ability: Drought
EVs: 72 HP / 228 Atk / 20 Def / 188 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Rock Tomb
- Dragon Tail
- Stealth Rock

Defensive
Groudon @ Lum Berry
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Thunder Wave
- Dragon Tail
- Stealth Rock

Why?
228+ Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 145-172 (47.8 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
228+ Atk Groudon Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Darkrai: 86-102 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery +
228+ Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Darkrai: 256-303 (91.1 - 107.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
228+ Atk Groudon Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 158-186 (45 - 52.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
228+ Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 314-372 (85.5 - 101.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
228+ Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 202-238 (52.8 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Beats about all common leads in the game with lum berry and 188 speed (rock tomb drop helps it outspeed mostly everything relevant in the game aside from the deos), beats p dong leads and has access to dtail to hit common switch ins like Mray/Gira O. One of the few leads in the game that can beat rai + keys and set up rocks at the same time. The offensive set has a 90% chance to beat Msab, meaning it beats both the common magic bouncers, which almost guarantees that dong will get rocks up every time. The defensive set also acts as a late game dtailer for hazard teams + does significant chip damage. Arguably the best offensive lead in the game. This NEEDS to be higher.

Also, on a side note, I don't think Groundceus is due for a push. There hasn't been any recent development in its ability to push for A and the previously made arguments are still relevant. SD eq is great on paper but will rarely be as impressive in practicality. A- for Groundceus is just fine.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
Regarding regular Groudon, I've heard people talk about banded don as decent but I don't think I've ever actually seen it be used. Can anyone comment on how good it is compared to other mons, and whether it's worth taking into consideration for regular don's ranking?
 
Banded don isn't worth taking into consideration for the nom since it lacks speed and a move that it can reliably spam. Assuming you get the predict right and it gets a kill, the mon that comes in next could simply reverse the swing of momentum back into the opponent's favour, i.e., something like Ray/ LO Yveltal.
 
Regarding regular Groudon, I've heard people talk about banded don as decent but I don't think I've ever actually seen it be used. Can anyone comment on how good it is compared to other mons, and whether it's worth taking into consideration for regular don's ranking?
What Blaze said, pretty much. It's going to get you one kill a game, if lucky with predicts. No move it can spam through and through. I wouldn't recommend using it.
 

Chloe

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NUPL Champion
We really need to get this done soon, and since no one's disputed the nominations Megazard made on Monday, I'm just going to go ahead with the more obvious ones.
Code:
Alomomola: TBD --> C- Rank
Amoonguss: TBD --> C- Rank
Bronzong: TBD --> C+ Rank
Forretress: TBD --> Unranked
Garchomp: TBD --> Unranked
Lucario (Mega): TBD --> C- Rank
Scizor (Mega): TBD --> C Rank
Terrakion: TBD --> C Rank
Zekrom: TBD --> C Rank
From Megazard's post, not moving:
- Glalie: TBD --> C- Rank, due to the sheer scale of debate earlier on, I'll give this a bit more time in case anyone opposes (please post if so)
- Arceus (Ground): A- Rank --> A Rank; giving a bit more time, since important nomination. Also mentioning it has three sets and displaying them isn't enough to warrant A rank.
- Zapdos shouldn't be ranked, I'm pretty sure Thimo even thinks this is a bad nom now.

Also going through with:
Code:
Jirachi: C+ Rank --> B- Rank
When the only opposition was Josh attacking your nomination style rather than the nomination itself, also is much better than the new C+ placed Bronzong, and is much more viable than the remainder of the C+ Rank; while being on par with Poison Arceus in many aspects. There's an argument for you. Of course ranks as always aren't final, so if you're willing to debate this topic civilly and with logical reasoning, I'll be happy to move it back.

Not going through with Groudon yet because it was nominated yesterday.
Aegislash is staying in C- Rank for the time being.
We'll focus on Mega Gengar, Primal Groudon and Xerneas debate after revamp is complete (hopefully soon)

Progress is fun :D
Also, Terrakion best Yveltal check in the game thank you very much, hello?

Keep posting!!
 
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Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Ok so have been testing out some of the other TBD mons and this is what I have concluded with:

UR -> C

Landorus-I is a pretty good wallbreaker that is pretty good at breaking down certain stall/semi0stall teams with Ho-Oh and Clefable due to its amazing offensive movepool coupled with the power boosts from Sheer Force that allow it to 2HKO a majority of bulkier walls and it could also set up rocks really nicely as it faces well 1v1 against many common hazard removers/setters. Although the main issue it has is that it has pretty low speed for an offensive mon and does not pertain enough bulk to survive even the weakest hits tbh. I find C is a good spot for it.

UR -> B-/B

So been trying out Latias too and its honestly very good. Grass Knot CM sets are amazing at breaking down both Primals and wrecking walls in general due to Soul Dew providing it great power and bulk. Has hard time vs offensive teams, but its still very good at also prociding hazard support and acting as a great Fire/Ground/Water switchin which is pretty important in AG.

UR -> A-/A

Shuca Dialga is one of the best leads to use atm due to it providing amazing power that scares of many other leads while luring one of the most common mons in Primal Groudon and Mega Rayquaza either 2HKOing or OHKOing the former depending on the spread. Its also really good at dealing with Steel types and Water types such as Steel Arceus and Primal Kyogre respectively. Its amazing support and offensive movepool just provide it enough utility for it to be in the A ranks imo, very underrated threat.

UR -> C/C+

I would rank all these mons together as they all are only really used on full BP teams which are rather matchup reliant rn. Dont get me wrong, BP could win games really easy if your opponent does not have counter measures to it, but many teams actually due pack stuff to threaten it in the form of Roar Primal Groudon and Unaware Clefable mainly which hampers the playstyle. Feel High C rank is a good spot for all three of these mons with Smeargle maybe being able to rise to B-.

UR -> B-

I used Wobbuffet for the tournament challenge thing and it actually put in a lot of work, Custap mixed sets are great for trapping many threats such as Scarf Xerneas, Mega Diancie, Primal Kyofre/Groudon and much more and just dents holes in the opponents team rather easily to facilitate sweeping easily. Its prone to mixed attackers due to the fact that its a 50/50 between Mirror Coat and Counter and its quite linear on what it does, but nonetheless its a great clutch mon that could be in either B- or maybe even B.

UR -> B-/B

Ok so I admit that I used to be on the "its outclassed 100% by Mega Ray" bandwagon myself until I actually started to use it more and realized that it actually carves a niche from Mega Ray in Intimidate and Refresh. Intimidate pre-mega offers Salamence many opportunities to setup a DD on a majority of physical attackers which could be detrimental for offensive teams even after one boost. Refresh also offers Mega Mence to sustain itself vs certain walls and offers it more of a chance to sweep the opposing team again (which it could easily do thanks to Aerilate Double Edge hitting like a truck). With the right support from the mon I will mention next, Mega Mence could even offer more than what Mega Ray can at times, although Mega Ray still outclasses it in other scenarios. Still a very good mon that I mistakenly underrated previously.

My own nom now:

UR -> C-/C

K so I have been using Rest CM Gothorita alongside DD Mega Mence and let me tell you its very good. You may be wondering why one would use this thing over its evo Gothitelle, however Gothorita offers the ability to pertain more bulk after Eviolite boosts , in which it could comfortably trap and most of the time take out most Support Arceus formes which is huge for Mence. Its actually surprisingly bulky and is a very good wincon after the opposing team is weakened down, which is why I believe it should be ranked.

Will test out the other TBDs and will make another post shortly.

Edit: also what happened to Mega Gengar to S? I thought everyone was in agreement to that notion no?
 
TBD -> C/C-
Arceus-Dark has become way less viable since common fairies like Arceus-Fairy, Xerneas, and Klefki have been very good. But I still wouldn't call it D-Rank garbage because after a Calm Mind Boost, it can 2HKO SpD Groudon Primal, It can OHKO Lugia after rocks (and 3HKO without). And after two calm minds, It can beat some of the common fairies, such as Xerneas after a geomancy, but having to waste a move slot with sludge bomb (and you need a first turn poison too). It still loses to Klefki outright, as it resists judgement and is immune to sludge bomb, forcing you to run earth power just to 2HKO after 2 calm minds. Thankfully, the meta does not have many bug or fighting types (bar Genesect and Terrakion, though those are very rare) so Darkceus doesn't really have to worry about those.
All the calcs are using the standard Uber CM spread which is 252 HP/ 80 Def/ 176 Spe.



Also has any one tried to use Magneton/Magnezone? I have tried them and they seem to be very niche steel trappers to Steelceus, Klefki, and Ferrothorn, and can hurt fairies with steel moves, though it doesn't do much outside of that.
 

Mq

It's Megaqwer's Time!
Shuca Dialga is one of the best leads to use atm due to it providing amazing power that scares of many other leads while luring one of the most common mons in Primal Groudon and Mega Rayquaza either 2HKOing or OHKOing the former depending on the spread.
I dont think dialga should be that high, even though shuca dialga is a good anti don set but then you become a setting bait when a darkrai leads or bulkceus?It also have no legit way to deal with chansey, which other A, A- can deal with (Chansey cant beat CM arc formes, who we kiddin')

Its also really good at dealing with Steel types and Water types such as Steel Arceus and Primal Kyogre respectively.
Well, it's true that it's easy for a dragon type to take on a water type but I am not getting how you dont get messed up with arceus steel.It can set up calm minds on u, while not getting 2ohked by Earth power/Fireblast.Furthermore, leaving dialga prone to it's move.

I think it should go back to this original rank, ie B rank. although it seems to have a slight upperhand vs other B rank mons but then it doesnt compete well with the B+ rank mons (lol)


I would rank all these mons together as they all are only really used on full BP teams which are rather matchup reliant rn. Dont get me wrong, BP could win games really easy if your opponent does not have counter measures to it, but many teams actually due pack stuff to threaten it in the form of Roar Primal Groudon and Unaware Clefable mainly which hampers the playstyle. Feel High C rank is a good spot for all three of these mons with Smeargle maybe being able to rise to B-.
Well, pokemons should be ranked based on their individual viability.In this case, just taking how these above mons does in BP wont be enough.There's a lot of thing that can work in BP, a lot but that doesnt make them go in the same ranking.Talking about how all these individual works, they are frail and can perform only a specific task, so imo.

Scolipede: Great toxic spikes abuser and en-devour is just annoying, so I nom for D rank

Smeargle:Good webs setter, and can have combination of literally any four moves and moodypass is still dangerous. This should be D rank too

Drifblim and Espeon:I dont see any niche bar Bp teams, and I dont know how to rank them assuming how casual they are in general, Unranked


I used Wobbuffet for the tournament challenge thing and it actually put in a lot of work, Custap mixed sets are great for trapping many threats such as Scarf Xerneas, Mega Diancie, Primal Kyofre/Groudon and much more and just dents holes in the opponents team rather easily to facilitate sweeping easily. Its prone to mixed attackers due to the fact that its a 50/50 between Mirror Coat and Counter and its quite linear on what it does, but nonetheless its a great clutch mon that could be in either B- or maybe even B.
Annoying to face Wobbufet when you're using a offensive mon but one of Wobbu's con is it cant get past bulky mons and loses to any status condition.It's also a setup bait for any mon with Sd, CM (Please no "Encore can trap Sword dance arceus" because frankly it isnt that hard to predict encore)

I think Wobbufet should stay where it was, C rank

Arceus-Dark has become way less viable since common fairies like Arceus-Fairy, Xerneas, and Klefki have been very good. But I still wouldn't call it D-Rank garbage because after a Calm Mind Boost, it can 2HKO SpD Groudon Primal, It can OHKO Lugia after rocks (and 3HKO without). And after two calm minds, It can beat some of the common fairies, such as Xerneas after a geomancy, but having to waste a move slot with sludge bomb (and you need a first turn poison too). It still loses to Klefki outright, as it resists judgement and is immune to sludge bomb, forcing you to run earth power just to 2HKO after 2 calm minds. Thankfully, the meta does not have many bug or fighting types (bar Genesect and Terrakion, though those are very rare) so Darkceus doesn't really have to worry about those.
All the calcs are using the standard Uber CM spread which is 252 HP/ 80 Def/ 176 Spe.
Well, what can I say to this?You stated it beats lugia and p don after a cm boost, but how is it different from cm ghostceus which in fact doesnt have a weakness to common fairy xern and resisting e speed.You said it beats xerneas after a geomany after a sludge bomb?What do you even mean by this lol, and most xerneas just one shot u.

I dont see it's niche cearly (maybe explain it to me?), otherwise, I'd keep it D rank.

These are my bad opinions, please dont hate me :}
 

Pigeons

pidge pidge
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I'm trying to test out some more TBD mons, in the meantime here are 2 other noms:

Arceus-Fairy A+ -> A

This thing just isn't as effective as it used to be. Support sets are very unreliable checks to Rayquaza now due to the prevalence of Life Orb and Choice Band sets, which force Fairyceus to sacrifice a lot of bulk so it can outspeed Rayquaza before getting 2HKOd. In fact, the loss in bulk is pretty huge because Fairyceus risks being KOd by the combination of a LO Dragon Ascent and Extreme Speed after Stealth Rocks. Not only has Fairyceus been less effective a Rayquaza check (its primary role when it was more popular), it still struggles with very common Pokemon like Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh. Though it does have ways to pressure these threats (Toxic, Earth Power, Stone Edge if you're a lord), it again requires Fairyceus to sacrifice something else on its already crowded moveset (losing Will-O-Wisp sucks vs EKiller, Recover and Judgment and mandatory and Fairyceus often wants Defog too). Calm Mind Fairyceus is a pretty nice set, but I don't think it's quite enough to warrant Fairyceus staying in A+. Calm Mind sets do have good coverage, but few resistances and good but not great bulk make it tricky to find setup opportunities, and again this set is hard walled by Ho-Oh. Fairyceus's Mega Gengar weakness is also pretty bad (less so on the Calm Mind set, but it's still an issue), vs Mega Gengar teams it often fails to accomplish much before being trapped and eliminated. It's still a good Pokemon, but I don't think it's on the same level as the other A+ Pokemon.

Arceus-Rock B+ -> A- / A

I'd say this has taken over as the Rayquaza check of choice on many teams, resistance to many of Rayquaza's common moves is amazing (Dragon Ascent, Extreme Speed and V-Create), and it definitely has the bulk to back that up. Thanks to these resistances, it can usually afford to run a faster set to outspeed Rayquaza while still being a very consistent switchin. Of course, mono-Rock typing allows it to check Ho-Oh very effectively as well, which is a huge plus against the balance teams that often use a Ho-Oh + Rayquaza core. Rock also has fairly good neutral coverage, which means it isn't forced to run a coverage move to hit its checks on the switch (support Primal Groudon is 3HKOd by Rockceus's Judgment, for example). Rockceus is also fairly flexible in terms of its moveset, only Judgment and Recover are 100% needed, options for the last 2 moves include Defog, Stealth Rock, Will-O-Wisp, Refresh and Calm Mind, all of which are very effective in certain situations. All things considered, recent trends have put Rockceus in a much more solid position in the metagame and its ranking should be raised to reflect that.
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
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ppl have sorta stopped caring about this so much with all the gen 7 hype, so here's noms for the last batch of relevant things that really ought to be ranked before the gen ends. Disclaimer: I know replays would be good for this kind of stuff but it's random things I've been working with on and off since TBD became a thing and I dont really have anything specific to show off

Dialga to B+
I think funbot overestimated this a bit, although I've probably been the most active user of it Dialga has very obvious flaws like being pressured by Darkrai (unless lum, in which case ekiller and pdon and groundceus) and some other random stuff. That being said it really is underrated as a good way to slap rocks on something that hits for a good amount of damage, most teams don't have very active Dialga switchins which can give it a lot more utility depending on the matchup, or it can simply get up rocks or trade when facing a less desirable matchup like full on HO. Also teams that do have a switchin to it are more often than not Ho-Oh balanced things that don't like how Dialga is a weirder to pressure SR user in the first place. It's got some nifty tech like Metal Burst, Trick Room, Thunder, and Scarf, but overall its bread and butter offensive SR set is really what makes it completely deserving of a solid B+ ranking.

Kyurem-White to C
Wow this is really underwhelming. Being completely reliant on prediction to do damage when there's p much no teams that won't have mon which pivot into every attack this runs really sucks for a rocks weak scarf user, specs is probably slightly better but is still in an awkward speed tier with the question of why use it when it checks almost nothing well. I wouldn't even mind throwing this a bit lower but we've got some other niche but workable and semi underexplored stuff in C like Terrakion and this probably fits it just fine. I know that there are other people who messed with this more than I did though, so if there's any differing opinions then this isn't final fsr.

Latias to C-
I don't even know if Latios should be ranked (anything in tbd by the end of the gen is just not getting ranked, that's why I'm not bothering to talk about Blaziken) but this fits the niche of what they do sufficiently. I've ultimately found Latias the more interesting of the two because of Healing Wish, Defog just isn't that good at all when we have all this other stuff for it but the Latis are sufficiently hard to switch into even though they don't really switch into much of anything themselves. Overall it's just hard to want this on any team, but it's unique to the other shitmons that I've actually found myself thinking that a primal pressurer that also has some utility would be exactly what the team needs, Darkrai and Ekiller bait or no.

Tyranitar to C
This sorta just works, like nothing special but it's almost certainly getting up rocks and checking rai and ray and that's about it. It gets some shit and a lot of that is probably because it never feels too justified to fit on something but it'll do what it's meant to. Mega fucking sucks but if you want it in D then nom it quick

MMX to C+/C
This mon really isn't that bad at all, but it suffers from the same thing other theoretically alright things like lando-t suffer from in that there hasn't been enough relevant usage of it. Other than that the shit it gets is 100% not justified, it's very easy to realize that any claim of how it's complete trash is just absolutely ridiculous once you use it a bit. Other good megas are way easier to fit on a team for sure, but once you get a MMX squad going it fits well into that decent speed tier that just needs a bit of reliable chip workaround for the team to deal with ray and ekiller and all that stuff a lot more effectively. There's honestly very little that likes switching into this a lot, Fairyceus is probably the worst thing for it since Clef is just about the easiest mon to pressure and Xern can't come in repeatedly, and it also has some useful tech that you can likely mess around with although I'd ultimately get it ranked for Taunt offensive. Based on its hate I'd say it's more likely to end up in C, but I really think C+ is the best place for this mon.

Regular Kyogre to B-
Yes I'm one of the biggest haters of this but recently I've come around to it a bit more, it's incredibly annoying with all the espeed users and Pdon everywhere etc everybody gets that but it can actually put in some good work as more of an offensive mon than a scarfer as long as you actually think about supporting it against don with things like xern so they can both chip it or gira-o or whatever. As long as ur getting it in on that gengar or mewtwo or random arc form or whatever, it really can apply offensive pressure in a way that not much else does, and while I think the idea that it's more of a revenge killer than anything else is ridiculous I can't deny its effect. C+ is completely acceptable as well, but this mon isn't complete garb.

Excadrill to D
I only see 4 sui leads really needing a rank in AG. Deo-S is the classic, and Deo-A is the slight variation that also does something else. Smeargle is mostly there for webs. Exca just makes it work as a unique mon in providing rocks but also being a bit more annoying in reliably keeping other people's away and also eq is semi threatening I guess. ik some people started running Swagger so that it could do something, seems legit I guess. My problem is that with offense you're going to go to something else first 99% of the time, but we've seen people managing to fit it onto some teams and I don't mind giving this back its low but passable placing.

Smeargle to C+???
Not entirely sure where this should go, it's mildly annoying and carries more utility outside of BP but like moody is just so lame and sui lead is lame and spore is overprepared for and it never feels that good until somehow it's doing something. Would like to see more opinions but it's the one thing that hasn't been suggested to get out of TBD yet that I absolutely feel should get some kind of rank.

On previous noms
Lando-I to C is fine, I could see C- because of just how niche it is but honestly nothing pivots into this (lugia w/out rocks / depending on set ok) which is just slightly better than most every other strong attacker that practically nothing switches into we have. I wouldnt want to see darkceus higher than C- considering that the nom didn't really show how it's better than any other CM Arc form which is sorta the reason why it stinks, that and being pressured by fairies. BP is complete dong but yeah let's put scoli/espy/blimp in D rank because I hate the ambiguity that comes with they're viable but only on BP so how do we rank them. Wobbuffet is cool but it's really questionable on where to put it, B is absolutely too high for a mon that just hasn't ever managed to prove itself but I think we could fit it in at like C- even if that just feels a bit low somehow. Mence... wherever mence ends up whatever I suppose B- is fine but eh. Absolutely fucking no to gothorita, Regular Groudon is overhyped but fine, and I think that's it. Oh and nobody contested Glalie so that's cool. Also I'm a bit mixed on the Fairyceus drop but Rockceus should definitely be going up with just how much utility it provides.

So what's left in TBD?
Arceus Electric/Flying/Ice/Fighting (just haven't seen any usage to be worth getting on and I'd unrank elec from what I used), Mega Aero (I fell short of getting this the testing it needed), Blaziken (actually tested this and not worth ranking), Cloyster (ik Chloe was using so maybe not), Lando-T (just not used enough), Latios (ditto), Liepard+Sableye+Thundurus (just bad), Mega Metagross (lol), regular Rayquaza (complete ass), Mega Slowbro (legit cool to mess around with but not enough conclusive usage), Mega Ttar (not good but still has the potential to get out), and Whimsicott (not enough usage). I think these are all overall fair to not get ranked for just never really showing up enough during the meta as a whole, and what we can get ranked pretty much covers everything as an accurate-ish representation of what got used, so I'm not losing any sleep over failing to nom Blaziken from TBD to unranked.

If you have any more noms, please get them in soon. With all the hype SM is bringing, I doubt many people will be wanting to revisit this, so let's finish off TBD and end the meta on a high note.
 

Adeleine

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ran this by megazard and he said it was ok to post, I like to be careful with low rank things like this

Sheddy D -> C-/C
I've been rocking dedbug in stall/semistall for quite a while and think he's due for a rise. It's niche usability and requirement to have a team tailored to it hold it back from higher ranks, but line it up much more with things like Alo/Amoong/Mluke at least (and maybe with quag/skymin/mr opportunity cost bug) than with the nigh-unusable Palkia.

It supports a team by acting as perhaps the meta's best check to Pogre (who 99.9% can't touch it) and Xerneas (who 98-99% can't touch it, screw rock slide). Particularly the Xern support has proved essential to my current Shed team, which has hit 1900 multiple times. Honestly the pogre support is huge too but I haven't seen him much of late. It also occasionally counters things like setup arc without super effective coverage or status, and mmx. Baton Pass to pivot and Toxic let it punish the many switchins that obviously would kill it. Sash, Toxic, Protect, and Sneak can occasionally let it survive enough to stall and screw weakened threats like Mray and Mgar. It's support requirements (no hazards, things to handle toxic/wow, answers for pdon/mray/normal arc/darkrai/etc) are of course major but can be fulfilled and compressed by well-fitting and viable Pokemon. For the unique success it has and very legitimate support it provides to specific archetype, I feel it deserves to rise out of D-rank Palkia-land.

My random opinions on some things in tbd
Smeargle C+/B-, its central to the semigood BP archetype and does other things, its lame af but undeniably has places where it fulfills a decent role decently well when used right
The non-smeargle BP mons, definitely imo in the C tier. Where in it, uh I'd say C= but they aren't bad fits in either other subranks
And scoli not in C-
KyuW C/C-
arc fighting unranked
landoI I tried to use it and it was total ass but I didnt use it a ton and what you say about it (@mzard) is right so I don't really care too much so long as it stays in C (tier) or lower
~~Shed's better than it tbh~~
 
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“FOLLOW YOUR AMBITIONS! LET ZEKROM CONTROL YOUR CLAIMS AND DESIRES IN YOUR ESSAY!” Ransei

Ladies, gentlemen, it’s finally here. The event you’ve all been waiting for. It’s going to be really, really long, so if you don’t feel like going through every single detail I’ve included a tl:dr at the bottom, but that won’t elaborate like the actual essay would. So, without further ado, here it is:

Zekrom to B+ rank

Introduction-Zekrom presents one of the best, if not the best, answer to physical walls in the entire metagame, without taking up a mega slot. With cores such as BlissTina and defensive Pokémon such as Skarmory seeing greater usage it is necessary for any competent offensive team to be able to answer resolutely and without hesitation. Zekrom is this answer. Furthermore, it allows for team versatility, as it doesn’t take up a Mega slot, it gives speed control and can revenge kill to an appreciable level.

Contents

Pro-Zekrom Arguments

- STAB coverage

- Comparative strength to B+

Anti-Zekrom Arguments

- Easily countered

- Reliance on Choice Items

Pro-Zekrom Arguments

STAB coverage-Zekrom, for the role of a physical wallbreaker, has been gifted, not cursed, with an incredible typing that allows it to hit nearly every single physical wall out there for at minimum neutral damage. To discuss this in the maximum detail possible, the top six physical walls have been elected and included below, in no particular order. Why six? Because it just seemed to get to the point where including anything else past six was getting irrelevant, needless and not really necessary, as they weren’t true walls. If you don’t agree with these, or would like to see another defensive Pokémon in here, say so and I’ll do my best to oblige you.



Relevant calcs against these six Pokémon may be seen below:

252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 306-360 (60.8 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I think I know what you’re thinking here-this really isn’t that great. Hold your horses. For the sake of organization, this will be addressed a little later, but to go through it quickly, Giratina is easy enough to wear down and Rest paints a big target on its back, meaning that all that’s needed here is a little intelligence and the lack of an OHKO can be easily circumnavigated.

252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Outrage vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 380-450 (86.1 - 102%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

A highly probable OHKO. What else is there to say?

252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Lugia: 396-468 (95.4 - 112.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Another OHKO. However, this one’s a really good one to focus on. The Lugia set used here is very defensive in nature, unusually so, and still has a chance to be OHKO’ed without rocks up. Most Lugia run a degree of speed, which this set doesn’t allow for. What I’m trying to get at here it that this set stacks the odds in Lugia’s favour and still can’t stand up to Zekrom, whereas many other offensive Pokémon are completely stopped by Lugia.

252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 294-348 (88 - 104.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

You read it, guaranteed OHKO after SR. Skarmory is probably the best physical wall in the metagame, and Zekrom eats it for breakfast with the correct support.

4 SpA Teravolt Zekrom Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Primal Groudon: 145-172 (35.8 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Primal Groudon, for obvious reasons, is Zekrom’s biggest weakness. However, even it can’t switch in nicely. It is critical to keep in mind here, when interpreting this calc, that Pdon, unlike all of the other Pokémon discussed, completely lacks recovery outside of Rest, which is rare and generally not considered a good choice on most teams. Pdon will be discussed in more detail later on in this argument.

252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 52 Def Arceus: 211-250 (47.6 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Once again, this calc doesn’t look very good. However, please keep the following in mind. First, this calc stacks the odds in favour of the Arceus. Most support Arceus, which this is, carry a large number of speed EVs, which this one can’t. Secondly, despite being as defensive as it is, it still can’t switch in on Zekrom, which is generally the point of carrying a defensive Pokémon, to switch it in on threatening attackers. Finally, if it lacks WoW, Zekrom can still come in for free, essentially, and pick up the 2HKO, knocking it out of commission. Finally, these calcs assume that it is at full health, which may not be, and often isn’t, the case with bulky stall Pokémon. As such, despite face value, due to the passiveness of this Pokémon Zekrom still has an easy time dealing with it.

Alright, as now seen, Zekrom has great offensive capabilities against physically defensive Pokémon. However, how does it stack up compared to other attackers? Well, in essence, really well. I’m too lazy to go grab the calcs for everything, sorry, but essentially most physical attackers can perform well against one threat or another, but, outside of M-Ray, always fall short, with on average about four of the six threats considered here dealing very well with them, as opposed to Zekrom’s two in Pdon and Giratina, both of which can be played around, albeit carefully.

Comparative Strength to other B+ ranks

It is of paramount importance to understand that I am not nominating Zekrom for A rank or anything like that, but rather B+ rank. The way this section is going to work is that I’ll compare Zekrom to each other current B+ rank and see how it stacks up, then throw in a little analysis at the end.

Arceus (Dragon)

Arceus-Dragon is extremely underappreciated in my opinion, but isn’t better than Zekrom is. It is a great defensive Pokémon that annoys other Pokémon , some notable examples being Ho-Oh and the rare but useful Mega-Salad. However, that’s where its usefulness comes to an end. It hates any Ice moves, which are much more commonplace than its other weaknesses, and as such falls short of being a defensive Pokémon compared to many other Pokémon . But Zekrom hates Ice moves as well! Key difference-Zekrom doesn’t take attacks, isn’t supposed to take attacks rather. Dragonceus, as a defensive Pokémon , is supposed to, and will often be in a situation where it may be lured in and takes one by surprise. As such, Zekrom is better than Dragonceus.
Arceus (Rock)

Arceus rock, in my opinion, is perhaps the worst B+ here. What does it actually do? People like to talk about it being a be-all and end-all Ho-Oh check and counter, but this is massively overhyped. It definitely checks Ho-Oh, forcing it to switch, but into what? In case you haven’t noticed, Rock is neither the best offensive nor defensive type, as so many Pokémon can carry EQ while Rockceus simply can’t touch them, unlike Zekrom who carries a decent enough range of STAB moves to be able to at least scratch switch-ins, as long as the switch-in was predicted well. Rockceus can definitely not switch into Ho-Oh, as a predicted switch will bring on an EQ on Ho-Oh’s behalf, majorly hurting this mon. Now, I can hear what some of you are saying-same for Zekrom! Zekrom hates EQ! The thing here is that Zekrom’s sole role isn’t to hurt Ho-Oh, whereas that’s about all Rockceus does. As such, Zekrom is generally a better pick in today’s metagame than Rockceus.
Deoxys (Attack)

Deo-A is fairly awful in today’s metagame. It can act as an effective-ish suicide lead, but there are many Pokémon out there who can deal with it, such as defensive Arceus forms, Giratina and Giratina-O and Lugia. I can hear what you’re saying again-Zekrom doesn’t exactly love defensive Arceus either! There’s a key difference here-Zekrom performs multiple roles, such as defensive wallbreaker, speed control and revenge killer. Deoxys-Attack does one thing, and not very well at that. As such, I have to summarise that Zekrom is better than Deo-A.
Giratina (Origin)

Actually a pretty cool Pokémon , probably around the same as Zekrom or better.
Skarmory

Probably one of the least appreciated Pokémon out there, Skarmory is probably better than Zekrom. However, this isn’t by an awful lot. Zekrom can, of course, beat Skarmory 1v1, but that isn’t really the point, so I’ll continue. Skarmory deals with quite a few offensive threats, and is well-known as one of, if not the best, Ekiller counters out there. However, when it comes to Mray, V-Create has become a staple, so it can no longer perform as well against that. Many other offensive Pokémon now run lure sets for it, including Ekiller, who can take Overheat or Fire Blast to deal with it. However, even with this in mind, it still performs its role admirably, so it still outpaces Zekrom.

As should have been seen by now, Zekrom places around the same as the other B+ ranks, so would fit in quite well. Now, to put the previous section into perspective. It was pointed out that Zekrom couldn’t handle some defensive Pokémon as well as would be liked, but still competed well in comparision to other attackers. Now, think about the way that these other attackers are generally found in the A to S tiers. If Zekrom can compare to them, even beat some of them in this aspect, then surely it deserves a place in B+, where it fits in really well?

Anti-Zekrom Arguments

Easily countered-This, by and far, seems to be the most prevalent counter-argument to Zekrom out there. The way it goes is that, supposedly, because of Zekrom’s Dragon/Electric typing, it becomes next to useless in the metagame because two prevalent Pokémon, in Primal-Groudon and Xerneas, are immune to its two STAB moves. This is perhaps the biggest problem for Zekrom, I fully admit that. However, this is the reason that Zekrom can’t be ranked higher, not for Zekrom to be ranked lower. Taking into consideration the second counter-argument, a reliance on Choice Items, Zekrom has two problems that must be addressed. Without these two problems Zekrom would have no flaws, and would be very highly ranked. However, it does have these flaws, and as such B+ is where it belongs. These flaws are not a reason for it to move lower, they are simply the reasons stopping it from rising higher.

Moving on in the counter-argument, what can you do if Primal Groudon or Xerneas switches in, taking an attack with one of its respective immunities when Zekrom is trapped by a Choice Item? Is it GG? How are you supposed to deal with it?

Switch

Woah. That was a crazy idea. Nearly every Pokémon has a counter in one form or another, especially all of the B+ ranks. What do you do when one comes in? Switch. Zekrom also has the attack stats and the movepool to be able to hit these switch-ins hard if they do come in and you predict it, a notable example being Earth Power to hit Pdon. It’s still a big issue, but it’s not game over. Calm down.

Reliance on Choice Items

It’s entirely true that Zekrom loves Choice items to the point at which it relies on them to function. This does make predicting switches more difficult, because if you’re wrong you have to switch Zekrom out, as you’ve blown an opportunity to use it correctly. However, this isn’t a reason for it to go lower, it’s simply a reason to stop it from lifting. Zekrom is simply a Pokémon that requires skill to use. If you can read your opponent like a book, which isn’t too hard to do once you’ve played them for a while, Zekrom can power through, picking up all the necessary predictions and switching out when necessary. As such, the best way to play around a reliance on Choice Items is that-to play, and to play well, which many of you do.

Sorry for that wall everyone, it’s over now. If you’d like to rebut please go for it, but if you would mind doing it in a chronological order that would be much appreciated, as it makes it so much easier to reply to. If anyone did actually read the whole thing word for word, sorry for taking away twenty minutes of your life with pure nonsense gold.

Tl;dr-Zekrom’s really cool, B+.

Thanks for reading!
 

Adeleine

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I haven't used/seen Zekrom enough to concretely place it but here's why i dont think it should be b+

Zekrom can't do everything at once. Below is the heart of that point.
Zekrom, for the role of a physical wallbreaker, has been gifted, not cursed, with an incredible typing that allows it to hit nearly every single physical wall out there for at minimum neutral damage
Eh, on paper, perhaps. But when you send out your Choice X Zekrom (and you've admitted its reliance on choice items) onto the field, you have a different reality. You have one of a few Pokemon at your disposal. If the one of these Pokemon you choose proves unsatisfactory, you have to switch it out and concede a turn/tempo. (this specific set of mons presumes bolt strike/outrage/vswitch/dmeteor)
Pokemon A: Nails Lugia and Skarm. Does strong damage to most things. Complete Pdon/Arceus-Ground bait. Messed up by Giratinas and Arc-Dragon.
Pokemon B: Nails Giratinas and Arceus-Dragon. Does strong damage to most things. Complete Xerneas/Arceus-Fairy bait. Messed up by Arceus-Steel. Locked in (that means incoming Xern get a free Geo and a free attack, or if scarf/etc guaranteed removal of you).
Pokemon C: Pivots you out, unless your foe is a ground mon, in which case you're screwed.
Pokemon D: Chips things like Pdon but it forced to immediately switch out. Does less damage against most things than usual. Same negative matchups as Pokemon B.

On paper Zekrom totally bodies Lugia/Skarm/Giratinas/Arc Dragon and does major damage to everything else. In practice, it has to choose each time what it will be able to do. It is certainly can be quite the devastating weapon if you consistently predict right, but having to make these predictions every time you send a mon out continually raises the chance of critical failure. No player, no matter how skilled, can continually predict right time and time again. Which leads to my second point.

Zekrom punishes you hard when you misplay. If you're relying on this often hit-and-run Pokemon and bringing it in constantly, you're opening yourself up for pain.
This does make predicting switches more difficult, because if you’re wrong you have to switch Zekrom out, as you’ve blown an opportunity to use it correctly. However, this isn’t a reason for it to go lower, it’s simply a reason to stop it from lifting.
I don't get how a major flaw could never lower Zekrom's position from the seemingly arbitrary B+ threshold. Shedinja hard counters Xerneas and Primal Kyogre, two huge defensive roles, but that doesn't mean it gets a floor of B-. It's major flaws put it below that point, in the same way (although less drastically ofc) Zekrom's major problems put it below B+.
Also, you seem to really underestimate the consequences of mispredicting. You don't just "lose an opportunity", as if there is no potential negative and just the loss of a positive; giving Pdon a free Rock Polish/Swords Dance or Xerneas a free Geomancy can easily lose games.
Zekrom is simply a Pokémon that requires skill to use.
Every Pokemon requires skill to a degree, but its barely about skill here. It's about risk. If you have a Deoxys-A/Giratina-O/Skarmory out against an unfavorable matchup, you can pummel/twave or phaze/toxic or phaze. Even if you play very skillfully and successfully predict with Zekrom 4/5 times, but that 1/5 you fail is against a Xerneas which sets up the free Geomancy, and its mid/late game and there isn't enough in reserve to stop it... tough luck. Not only does Zekrom's reliance on Choice items make misprediction more punishing in general, its potential for extreme matchup disadvantages against ubiquitous opponents with deadly set-up capabilities makes that risk even higher.
If you can read your opponent like a book, which isn’t too hard to do once you’ve played them for a while, Zekrom can power through, picking up all the necessary predictions and switching out when necessary.
Having to rely on reading your opponent like a book, aka perfectly, is very precarious (especially with a mon as easy to punish as Zekrom). In the perfect theoretical world where you can do that, Zekrom becomes much better. But even for the best of us, such perfect and outpredicting play isn't a consistent reality.

As such, the best way to play around a reliance on Choice Items is that-to play, and to play well, which many of you do.
Playing "well" with a mon that often requires near-perfect prediction to prevent apocalypse (i'm not exaggerating, a free geomancy'd xern and a free boosted pdon are quite often just that) just doesn't cut it.

Moving on in the counter-argument, what can you do if Primal Groudon or Xerneas switches in, taking an attack with one of its respective immunities when Zekrom is trapped by a Choice Item? Is it GG? How are you supposed to deal with it?
Switch
Woah. That was a crazy idea. Nearly every Pokémon has a counter in one form or another, especially all of the B+ ranks. What do you do when one comes in?
I've covered this idea scatteredly already but i'll hit it home here.
Yeah, giving xern a free geo or Pdon a free Polish can well be GG. The B+ ranks may have counters, but they don't run the risk of being rendered wholly impotent bait by two omnipresent mons that pose acute danger after the turn of free setup that switching gives them.


I'll briefly cover a new point here: Zekrom's problems switching in. Theoretically, 4 weaknesses (none of which are 4x) vs. 6 resistances (one of which is 4x) isn't bad. However, many of the weaknesses (especially fairy and ground) are common, while the resistances are either not common (grass, electric, steel) or commonly accompanied by a neutral/super effective move (flying accompanied by EQ/Draco Meteor, fire accompanied by Pblades/Earthquake/Dragon Claw/Dragon Tail, water accompanied by Ice Beam). And without a choice scarf (which sacrifices power), Z has to take two hits from almost everything with that unexciting base 90 speed, and if the first was resisted the second one may well be not. No recovery (assuming a choice set), susceptibility to toxic, and burn's utter crippling compound this problem.

I'll finish up this post with a comparison of a different kind. Here is a comparison of Zekrom with (non-Mega) Rayquaza, a mon in TBD we can all agree is pretty bad. I'm choosing Ray because of the similarities these mons have: mascot legend 680 bst, dragon+secondary type, base 150 offense, physical-biased, powerful but drawbacky moves, pedestrian (relatively) speed.

Zekrom's advantages:
Electric STAB
Physical Bulk
Slight special bulk
A powerful STAB move that doesn't lower its bulk or lock it in
Pivoting via Volt Switch
No 4x weakness
Not weak to Rock

Rayquaza's advantages:
Unique non-STAB movepool: Only Ray gets Waterfall/Aqua Tail/Surf, EQ, V-Create, and Extreme Speed while only Zek gets... Focus Blast? Steel Wing? Zen Headbutt?
Speed advantage over base 90's
Stronger Draco Meteor
a STAB no Pokemon is immune to (and therefore a less mispredict-punishing Pokemon)
Completely not needing questionable accuracy moves
Swords Dance and Dragon Dance
Less reliance on Choice Items
Less predictable (ties in with the two above this)
Immune to Ground

I'm not questioning whether Zek wins this comparison; its advantages are more valuable. But considering that D/C- is a likely replacement for Ray... does Zek win by ~2 full ranks?

TLDR of why Zek shouldn't be B+
Practical limitations not in theoretical outlook
Requires consistently near-perfect skill/prediction to reach full potential
Risk/punishment factor
A floor of B+ doesn't make sense

Wew, that's all i have to say i think
^lies since I've edited it but w/e
 
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I haven't used/seen Zekrom enough to concretely place it but here's why i dont think it should be b+

Zekrom can't do everything at once. Below is the heart of that point.

Eh, on paper, perhaps. But when you send out your Choice X Zekrom (and you've admitted its reliance on choice items) onto the field, you have a different reality. You have one of a few Pokemon at your disposal. If the one of these Pokemon you choose proves unsatisfactory, you have to switch it out and concede a turn/tempo. (this specific set of mons presumes bolt strike/outrage/vswitch/dmeteor)
Pokemon A: Nails Lugia and Skarm. Does strong damage to most things. Complete Pdon/Arceus-Ground bait. Messed up by Giratinas and Arc-Dragon.
Pokemon B: Nails Giratinas and Arceus-Dragon. Does strong damage to most things. Complete Xerneas/Arceus-Fairy bait. Messed up by Arceus-Steel. Locked in (that means incoming Xern get a free Geo and a free attack, or if scarf/etc guaranteed removal of you).
Pokemon C: Pivots you out, unless your foe is a ground mon, in which case you're screwed.
Pokemon D: Chips things like Pdon but it forced to immediately switch out. Does less damage against most things than usual. Same negative matchups as Pokemon B.

On paper Zekrom totally bodies Lugia/Skarm/Giratinas/Arc Dragon and does major damage to everything else. In practice, it has to choose each time what it will be able to do. It is certainly can be quite the devastating weapon if you consistently predict right, but having to make these predictions every time you send a mon out continually raises the chance of critical failure. No player, no matter how skilled, can continually predict right time and time again. Which leads to my second point.

Zekrom punishes you hard when you misplay. If you're relying on this often hit-and-run Pokemon and bringing it in constantly, you're opening yourself up for pain.

I don't get how a major flaw could never lower Zekrom's position from the seemingly arbitrary B+ threshold. Shedinja hard counters Xerneas and Primal Kyogre, two huge defensive roles, but that doesn't mean it gets a floor of B-. It's major flaws put it below that point, in the same way (although less drastically ofc) Zekrom's major problems put it below B+.
Also, you seem to really underestimate the consequences of mispredicting. You don't just "lose an opportunity", as if there is no potential negative and just the loss of a positive; giving Pdon a free Rock Polish/Swords Dance or Xerneas a free Geomancy can easily lose games.

Every Pokemon requires skill to a degree, but its barely about skill here. It's about risk. If you have a Deoxys-A/Giratina-O/Skarmory out against an unfavorable matchup, you can pummel/twave or phaze/toxic or phaze. Even if you play very skillfully and successfully predict with Zekrom 4/5 times, but that 1/5 you fail is against a Xerneas which sets up the free Geomancy, and its mid/late game and there isn't enough in reserve to stop it... tough luck. Not only does Zekrom's reliance on Choice items make misprediction more punishing in general, its potential for extreme matchup disadvantages against ubiquitous opponents with deadly set-up capabilities makes that risk even higher.

Having to rely on reading your opponent like a book, aka perfectly, is very precarious (especially with a mon as easy to punish as Zekrom). In the perfect theoretical world where you can do that, Zekrom becomes much better. But even for the best of us, such perfect and outpredicting play isn't a consistent reality.



Playing "well" with a mon that often requires near-perfect prediction to prevent apocalypse (i'm not exaggerating, a free geomancy'd xern and a free boosted pdon are quite often just that) just doesn't cut it.


I've covered this idea scatteredly already but i'll hit it home here.
Yeah, giving xern a free geo or Pdon a free Polish can well be GG. The B+ ranks may have counters, but they don't run the risk of being rendered wholly impotent bait by two omnipresent mons that pose acute danger after the turn of free setup that switching gives them.


I'll briefly cover a new point here: Zekrom's problems switching in. Theoretically, 4 weaknesses (none of which are 4x) vs. 6 resistances (one of which is 4x) isn't bad. However, many of the weaknesses (especially fairy and ground) are common, while the resistances are either not common (grass, electric, steel) or commonly accompanied by a neutral/super effective move (flying accompanied by EQ/Draco Meteor, fire accompanied by Pblades/Earthquake/Dragon Claw/Dragon Tail, water accompanied by Ice Beam). And without a choice scarf (which sacrifices power), Z has to take two hits from almost everything with that unexciting base 90 speed, and if the first was resisted the second one may well be not. No recovery (assuming a choice set), susceptibility to toxic, and burn's utter crippling compound this problem.

I'll finish up this post with a comparison of a different kind. Here is a comparison of Zekrom with (non-Mega) Rayquaza, a mon in TBD we can all agree is pretty bad. I'm choosing Ray because of the similarities these mons have: mascot legend 680 bst, dragon+secondary type, base 150 offense, physical-biased, powerful but drawbacky moves, pedestrian (relatively) speed.

Zekrom's advantages:
Electric STAB
Physical Bulk
Slight special bulk
A powerful STAB move that doesn't lower its bulk or lock it in
Pivoting via Volt Switch
No 4x weakness
Not weak to Rock

Rayquaza's advantages:
Unique non-STAB movepool: Only Ray gets Waterfall/Aqua Tail/Surf, EQ, V-Create, and Extreme Speed while only Zek gets... Focus Blast? Steel Wing? Zen Headbutt?
Speed advantage over base 90's
Stronger Draco Meteor
a STAB no Pokemon is immune to (and therefore a less mispredict-punishing Pokemon)
Completely not needing questionable accuracy moves
Swords Dance and Dragon Dance
Less reliance on Choice Items
Less predictable (ties in with the two above this)
Immune to Ground

I'm not questioning whether Zek wins this comparison; its advantages are more valuable. But considering that D/C- is a likely replacement for Ray... does Zek win by ~2 full ranks?

TLDR of why Zek shouldn't be B+
Practical limitations not in theoretical outlook
Requires consistently near-perfect skill/prediction to reach full potential
Risk/punishment factor
A floor of B+ doesn't make sense

Wew, that's all i have to say i think
^lies since I've edited it but w/e
Thanks for your reply, I'll do my best to counter-rebut your points but I may miss some, just say so if I do.

Prediction Reliance
Grouped these two points together because I felt like they were subpoints of the same issue, being prediction reliance, but if you'd like me to split it up just say so.
Zekrom is very prediction reliant, as mentioned multiple times throughout my previous post, such as under the Choice Item reliance point. I previously rebutted this under the idea that this was something limiting it from going higher, not something for it to drop for. That, I agree, was a pathetic argument that was rushed because I realized that Sun/Moon was much closer than I thought. I'd now like to address this with the idea of that predictions are often stacked in Zekrom's favor, which is mainly encompassed by the next argument.
Punishment Factor for Misplays-"critical misplays"
Really good argument here, I pretty much just overlooked this.
So, if I'm following right, you're saying that while many B+ ranked mons have counters, none of them are as devastating as a Xerneas grabbing a Geo or a Pdon grabbing a Polish? First up, Zekrom has to misplay first. For the sake of argument I'm going to go with the idea that the chance of a misplay is 50/50, even though those odds can most likely be raised much higher with the right plays. Even more on this point, for Zekrom to even misplay in the first place it requires Zekrom to want to use either a Dragon move, requiring a team of threats like Giratina and the likes, or BS, requiring Skarmory, Lugia and the likes. This reduces your probability by even more. Furthermore, it requires a Pokemon to capitalize on that mess-up, thus requiring either Pdon or Xerneas to be on the right team matchup just to capitalize on a little-known Pokemon's mess-up.
Do you see what I'm getting at? While you've made it out to be a really big probability that Zekrom's going to mess up, it requires a very specific team set-up just to hurt a little-used Pokemon and a good prediction on their part, which at very worst makes the probability 50/50. The idea here is that it's not such a massive likelihood in the first place.

Another aspect of this argument is the way you say that the other B+ ranks don't have the issue of being countered to oblivion by Pdon and Xerneas. Let's take a look at that claim. First of all, as pointed out in my nomination, Zekrom's usefulness generally outweighs the B+ ranks, so if a tie emerges between two Pokemon Zekrom default takes the trophy.

Dragonceus-Has to pick between switching out to dodge Xerneas's Moonblast or using Roar to phase Xerneas's Geomancy. 50/50, right? This is the exact same as the probability I'm using for Zekrom that I have to stress is most likely worst-case. As such, under this argument, Zekrom performs better than Dragonceus.

Rockceus-Essentially the same thing as before, has to 50/50 between taking an EQ/PB from Pdon or switching out and giving it a free RP. As such, Zekrom performs better.

Deo-A-Not really applicable to this argument, completely different type of Pokemon

Gira-O-Has to pick between switching from Xerneas and giving it Geomancy and staying in and taking a Moonblast. 50/50.

Skarmory-Has to choose between Toxic-ing Pdon and taking a Fire Punch, which OHKO's after rocks, or switching out and giving it a Rock Polish. 50/50.

As such, your claim that only Zekrom has counters that can make it lose the game seems completely unjustified to me, sorry. If I've just completely missed an aspect of your argument here please say so, but it just doesn't really make a whole heap of sense to me.

The Rayquaza Thing
I'm not really sure if I understand what you're saying here, but it seems like you've listed the perks of each Pokemon? The rest of this counter-argument goes on the presumption that you're trying to make the case that Zekrom and Rayquaza are very similar.
Ray doesn't revenge kill-Zekrom can, with Choice Scarf, and Rayquaza can only try to revenge with an Espeed that is, quite frankly, not very strong.
Ray doesn't break physical walls without setting up lots first, which can be destroyed by WoW or Roar, whereas Zekrom can often OHKO walls or at least KO a weakened one.
Doesn't need poor accuracy-Really cool perk, can't count the number of games I've lost to a missed BS with Zekrom.
Less reliance on Choice Items-In exchange for what role? Rayquaza just doesn't seem to do much, there are much better set-up sweepers and that is all Rayquaza does in my eyes, correct me if I'm wrong.

I probably haven't touched on everything there, but I would make the argument that Zekrom outweighs Rayquaza by a fairly large amount, enough to justify B+ or at least B.

On the whole I do agree that I may have overhyped Zekrom just a little bit but I'd like to maintain my position of B+ because, considering this reply, I don't believe that my points have been rebutted to sufficient degree to move it down, and especially not to keep it in C, considering it can battle toe-to-toe with the majority of B+.
 

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