Mafia Roles for New Players

Lately, I've been noticing a number of new players wishing to play mafia and I was interested in your opinions on what type of roles would be best for a new person to have? I mean, I was a mafia inspector my first game and I ended up booching a false claim that got me killed the next night. Should players who are unfamilar with mafia be given mafia roles? What type of roles are better off with those unfamiliar with the mafia game?

Roles for a user's first game:

Mayor: Requires minimal thought as long as he doesn't claim to a mafia player late game.

Villager: Gives the player a chance to see how the game is run, not much thought involved.

Mafia Killer: This one is interesting. I can easily see this as a newbie role, since it's easy enough to kill a player. The only issue is who to kill after the first night or so. (Could be moved down to with strong support)

Silencer: You always try to silence the leader of the village, the mayor, or the player that is the target of the lynch (if not alligned), whichever works. It shouldn't be a hard job to do.

Neutral that needs little support/effort to play: See evan in Bad Character Mafia.

Thief: Items shouldnt be there in beginner games (in the future) but if present, thief isnt a bad role to have.

Roles that can be used for new user's first game with support:

Hooker: Good beginner role, as long as they do not lead for their faction (not alone at least)

Bodyguard: Good beginner role, as long as leader has been established

Inspector: Good beginner role, as long as they do not lead their faction (not alone at least)

Safeguard: Good beginner role, as long as they do not lead their faction (not alone at least)

Martyr: Good beginner role, as long as they do not lead their faction (not alone at least)

Persuader:

Kidnapper:

One-time roles:

Alligned Neutrals:

Redirector:

Roles not for the first game:

Wolf: Obviously, no first time player wants to play by themself. Being a wolf requires some delibiraiton with the mafia and village, playing each side against the other. This should only be with a semi-experienced player (probably at least the third game)

Roles not accounted for yet:

Rogue

Well, new players should obviously need to have simple roles, but the roles need to be randomly distributed, don't they? I'm new to mafia myself, so I can tell you that I'd, personally, not want to have a complicated role, only to make it useless or accidentally ruining the game for fellow allies, but you can't make random distribution not random without something done with it. So, basically this thread should be about maybe canceling the randomness of distribution.

FinnRagetti said:

Should players who are unfamilar with mafia be given mafia roles?

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If you make a policy to not give them a mafia position, then they effectively are 100% clean their first game. That sorta takes the fun out of it.

I'm not as so much against giving newcomers mafia positions, but it was easy to see that Shananigeer was mafia in DotA due to his overly-village demeanour.

That said, I was a village silencer in Battleworld (first mafia) though I was alphebe-killed n0. Then in swm2 I was the Empire mole :P swm was what really got me accustomed to the game though, and showed me that I was better as mafia (not great though lol).

Then in MGS I was a mafia (pretty much) and I thoroughly enjoyed that. In DotA I was a mafia-looking villager, which wasn't fun. I think that obviously hugely important roles shouldn't be given to newcomers, but they do need some sort of decent role to get them really into the game.

Believe it or not, most mafia games are not 100% randomized. What the hosts usually try to do, is balance out the teams player wise, giving them all decent players, and putting people in roles they would like to see them play well (i.e. Neutrals). This is why you never see first time players as wolfs.

Aura Guardian said:

If you make a policy to not give them a mafia position, then they effectively are 100% clean their first game. That sorta takes the fun out of it.

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I am not saying that, but at least have a role in a mafia that may require them to easily mole/not have to mole. Like a silencer/persuader would be a good role for a new mafia player to play, because it is easy to know who to target. If a new player were to have a powerful/confusing role, then they should at least have someone there to help them. Someone experienced with success in mafia games.

I'm new to smogon mafia (I've played NOC before now), and it's an entirely different game to anything else, so I'd imagine that anybody new should probably have a role which isn't too complicated, but at least makes them feel like their contributing (I know when I was mayor in Superstars I kinda felt like I was just an extra two votes, rather than being something useful). Maybe a role where you've got another role which has the same purpose as the role given to the new player, so that if the new person screws up their team still has results to rely on.

I'd definitely advise against anything like Insane Sheriff, because there's no way I'd want to have the host lying to me on my first game, when I'd still be getting accustomed to smogon mafia.

when askaninjask and I were picking our roles for GS mafia, we kinda had this process that we went from to pick roles.

first we decided on two relatively well-known, but not completely obvious players for the neutrals: players we knew could handle the role but would not be the first person targeted. I would definitely advise against neutral roles for beginning mafia players, because of the confusing nature of these roles (and usually hosts spend a lot of time on their neutrals and want them to do well!).

we tried to place two "competent" players on each 4-person mafia and three "competent" players on the village. in general their roles were useful (ie. item guard, messanger), but not the "best" roles (ie. bodyguard, hooker, etc). looking back, i think the two worst roles in each mafia were given to these two players.

after all that, the teams were randomized with the remaining players in random roles. we had relatively new players playing a lot of the village power roles (inspector, thief, hooker) and even some of the powerful mafia roles (silencer, lynch guard).

tl;dr one of the things i like to see with new players is actually the powerful roles like hooker, inspector, bodyguard that are seen in every game. as a host, i like to see the game run smoothly, and i always like to see new players doing well with basic mafia roles (i was hooker in my first ever smogon mafia and played relatively well).

That is a good point. As long as there is a competnet player to support the power roles, there should be no issue with a new player having those roles. Saying that, there are times when those "competent players" were inactive, which meant that those players had to step up, which could either work well or work horribly. So, I say the power, simple roles could be used on a new player.

I usually give new players the weak, nearly useless roles, though it's easy to give them powerful mafia roles since there will always be a competent player in their group (and with the less restricted deadtalking rules, even killing that guy won't hurt their strategy). Plus this way, your cool role has a longer life expectancy, since newer players are targeted less.

This goes for village to a much lesser extent...village leaders can still be in command of other people's roles but it's less reliable and they can't deadtalk under the standard rules.

although i do not randomise the roles in my games i can tell you that you should never assume a player is clean cause they're new, or mafia cause they're experienced

basic roles will do for beginner games if anything

FinnRagetti said:

Roles not accounted for yet:

Thief
Rogue
1-timer roles
Kidnapper
Non-Wolf Neutral
Redirector

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Where do these roles fit in? I think a redirector/kidnapper require a bit more guidance to use, so should they be in the needs support category?

What about rogue/thief? Are they simple enough to be freely done?

The two roles I highly believe that should not be even considered for new players are 1 time roles (which require correct timing, which even some experienced players have issues with) and being a neutral (most of the time). What do you think?

I played as a theif mafia my first game and didn't have much trouble with it
Besides shit claims

Most of these roles can be taken on by a newbie if they're in a mafia and have team support... it's when they're on their own in the village that worries me. Personally, I'd avoid giving a newbie inspector, because it's one of the village's most valuable roles and it's one the newbie will be tempted to lead the village with, which is just a no-no on several counts.

I disagree with the notion of neutrals being so important, since they often fuck with the game, but hosts do tend to invest a lot of effort in them as asim said and they tend to have the most unique, confusing roles. In general, newbies shouldn't be a lone neutral unless it's a really easy role you're confident in them to handle, because they have no team support (which is the most valuable form of education when you're new) and have to deal diplomatically with all the factions. I like newbie/veteran wolf pairs, except the newbie can screw it up for the veteran, which has happened a bunch of times. :P

Of course, I was thrown in the deep end in DBZ, being village inspector (I'm grateful thunda trusted me enough with that), but I had Brain, dak, and other players to learn from, and I didn't try to lead. A lot of newbies will know to keep their head down, but given that inspector is one of the most valuable tools a village can have, I prefer not to risk it, though at least the newbie will probably escape n1 targeting.

It's just host discretion imo, but in general I think simple, non-vital roles are the best for first-timers, before they learn to play more complicated things. The problems with giving first-timers shitty roles are as follows: a) They won't be targeted and targets will go on the better players (especially in anonymous mafia) who have the important roles (that's my biggest problem with non-anon mafia) b) They will be shunted to the side of the village and just receive orders from the leader. It's boring, discouraging, and not educational. Of course, assuming the first-timer isn't the one-in-100 fucktard who goes off on their own because they're bored and screw things up for everyone, this also stops them from screwing up, so on both sides it's something where you can sympathise with both sides.

In conclusion, I think there are lots of variables in everything mafia-related, and it's too hard to account for all of them, so you should just use your own intelligence and knowledge of the players, but it's best to err on the side of caution.

On the roles:
Persuader: Move down to support group. If a new player has this, and then starts persuading the man leading the village to lynch some other mafioso in their own team, lots of hate is born. And before you start raging over this, I could very easily see this happen, what with all the games where a mafioso sells out his team and shit.

Kidnapper: Support again. This can easily be in the village or mafia side (seen both), and if a new player (as a villager) kidnaps the villy leader, then the mafia practically has a field day. And as a mafioso, you don't want a new player to kidnap random players, you want to find the powerful roles and take them out from the village.

1-time roles: Same again. If I make a new mafia game (likely), and I have a role with only 1-timers (see Decoy in MGS), I rather have a competent player help the newer on the targets, and not the new player to blow the onetimers on some useless crap.

As from experience:
When I played my first (Chaos Mafia), I was an inspector+thief for the Insane. Early game I mostly followed teammates orders, but since our team got fucked (mildly), I was left alone midgame. Then I practically blew up my chance at winning, since I was a good role but no experience: If I had contacted Hip with my role and asked for a recruit in exchange for my powers, things could be very different. Instead, I just let them lynch me, and though "What the hell, who cares?"

In my second game (Blindness Mafia), I was a village twin. I ended up co-leading the village with Bass, and learned quite alot from that. When Bass finally kicked the bucket, I managed to not fuck up and gathered enough info with the help of Accent to eliminate the Mafia.

In Star Wars Mafia, I was a fucked up bodyguard, which was quite boring: I ended up dead due to a misunderstanding between the host and a mafia-faction (his words). I was practically a non-claimer, who still protected macle, and I died the night I gave my claim to macle (or something along these lines). If I didn't have a messed up role, and the general messiness of the game, I think it would have been interesting, but for a first-time players view: Sit there and get orders without getting to know a jack? I think a player would just call it quits at that moment.

Also...

jumpluff said:

I like newbie/veteran wolf pairs, except the newbie can screw it up for the veteran, which has happened a bunch of times. :P

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Smogon User Mafia? :P

I actually think having new users have mafia roles can actually be helpful, as it's far easier to get involved and learn some of the strategy. In 3 of my 4 games so far I've had at least one cleaned teammate (I was mafia in Battleworld and GS mafias, and I was a twin in Unicycle), and it's nice to have guidance or even just someone else to bounce ideas off of (I'm sure rey got sick of hearing all my random ideas and whatnot between GS and Uni). I was wolf in Superstars and it's not an experience I would like to have again until I'm better at mafia; having practically no info about what's going on unless you get in touch with a mafia faction that is prepared to betray you at almost any moment isn't fun when you're still kinda new.
Long story short, putting new players with the mafia (or pairing them with a twin) gives them a chance to learn from more experienced players and doesn't leave them in a "just do what you're told" situation like what can happen for a villager without absolute trust.

Darkanine said:

I played as a theif mafia my first game and didn't have much trouble with it
Besides shit claims

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that's cause you didn't do anything WHAOOOOOO

imo newbie games should not have items period, they should be in standard games and above though

exarius hit the nail on the head with the persuading and kidnapping. as for neutrals it doesn't really matter if you give newbies a neutral role (especially the simpler ones) but shit like wolf or any unfriendly neutral should be avoided unless you are really really confident in their ability

Definitely, wolves or neutral roles shouldn't be given to new or bad players, unless they are very easy to play. Most village roles are actually suitable for new players, and its even easier with a partner. Mafia roles should definitely not be given to new players, unless they have some very good players backing them up, even decent players can tend to mess up with a new player.

see coronis while that is quick and easy we can't do that because new players can basically be cleaned by virtue of being new. i feel that a player's first game can really affect what they like and don't like to be, after being thrown into the rra with hip and lesm (and all the other awesome rra members except for cof the fool) i have loved being mafia. i know for a fact that you prefer being a villager too. therefore it is essential that we make sure a player's first game is memorable and that they learn from it

I'll retract that statement, since being mafia is actually probably better for inexperienced players, or it can be easier. Being mafia, you know who you can trust, and you have, or should have some experienced partner(s) who's knowledge and experience you can fall back on, and get help with things like false claims. Whereas being village aligned, you don't know who to trust, you can claim to the wrong person, and early on you likely have nobody to trust or help you, though that may change later in the game.

Coronis said:

I'll retract that statement, since being mafia is actually probably better for inexperienced players, or it can be easier. Being mafia, you know who you can trust, and you have, or should have some experienced partner(s) who's knowledge and experience you can fall back on, and get help with things like false claims. Whereas being village aligned, you don't know who to trust, you can claim to the wrong person, and early on you likely have nobody to trust or help you, though that may change later in the game.

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I am somewhat experienced so let's go through my games and see what worked for me:

Pokemon NPCv2: Mafia Inspect-->Screwed up FC because of limited help from other, experienced mafia players and more help from newer players (similar to the experience level of me now). Didn't know i could contact IPL to help with FC.

Maximum Carnage: Village Announcer: Did better, tried to help village by working with unhooked mafia, claimed to Eo and gave him spreadsheet X_X.

Bad Character: Village Inspect: Best game by far. Mess ups with Mekkah and Jumpluff, but still set up the village to "almost win" thanks to finding 90% of the mafia.

Superstars: Village Vigilante: Claimed to Altair (Sports), Inspected by Sexy Mafia, still do not know how I could have survived that long. Didnt put too much effort, until LN died (the first time). Got the sheets organized afterwards and narrowed down the possible wolf. Ended up not being needed, thanks to assassinfred.

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I know the best way to learn mafia is to be in the power role position, as I was in Bad Character; however, the first game needs the player to have some sort of support to help (if mafia) or a simplified village role that allows the player to learn from the leader.

I won't count Battleworld as my first game heh :P

In Star Wars Mafia 2 though I got a much better taste for and learned much more about the game simply by talking to user Thorns a bit (hell yeah ;D).

Then in MGS I was with more experienced players, but tbh I was only ever in contact with Finn [not the most experienced of them]

Yea it didnt help that dubulous died and I could never find asim on when I needed him.