Glowking potentially for balance, but Kingambit, Tusk, Dragapult and Landorus are also very splashable in general
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Damn I hate kingambit !!!
What could I have done better to not be reverse swept by it ?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2105005043
20-2 into 24-5, my gxe plummeted from 78 to 73.3, guess my req tentative is over...
What could I have done better to not be reverse swept by it ?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2105005043
20-2 into 24-5, my gxe plummeted from 78 to 73.3, guess my req tentative is over...
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Well, for one, you traded your tusk's health for damage on gliscor, you should have switched into dondozo since even if they toxic it or knock it off, you could have still dealt with it. Tusk is a backup answer to gliscor, dozo is the main answer, because it is crippled by toxic and ice spinner can never ohko it, meaning gliscor wins in the exchange.
You again relied on tusk to deal with zama instead of switching to dozo, its a great defensive mon and don't be scared to use it.
That then lead to gambit overwhelming the dozo with too much damage, since you were forced to tera fire at the start of the match.
From what I could see, you overelied on tusk for the gliscor and zama, two mons it only is decent against, and didn't use dondozo enough. That should help.
On Turn 28, going for Body Press > Rest would’ve been the best play since Kingambit would then be put into kill range and denied the opportunity to setup. If it Swords Dances, Dondozo finishes it off, or if it takes out Dondozo, GF comes in and revenge kills since Sucker never kills unboosted
Going for Morning Sun on turn 30 instead of attacking was also risky IMO since the highest Sucker Punch roll will always be less than the lowest Kowtow Cleave, so GF most likely would’ve survived. Making sure to know opportunities where a Gambit could want to set up is always vital in the endgame
Hello stall players.
I would like to bring my view on the style and ask some questions, some of which I will also answer for myself.
Are we playing with stall or just playing not to lose?
Are we able to build teams or are we just accumulating 6 "required" Pokémon to fill as many gaps as possible? (Has always been)
Defog/Rapid Spin is no longer an alternative? Losing your own progress with hazards in the case of Defog, in addition to the difficulty and cost/benefit of losing a turn using the move, which compromises positioning, there is Gholdengo. It seems more viable to perform 1 or 2 Knock Off absorbers and fill the rest of items with HDB.
How much do you currently rely on Tera in your build?
Personally, Tera Ghost Gliscor for elephant anti-spin and Tera Steel Clodsire are my biggest go-tos. The presence of Rain and Sun has diminished a lot, but I remain with my Blissey Tera Water.
A Tera Dark with Protect is also useful for Future Sight + Something combo.
Now specifically about "necessary" Pokémon for the team;
-Mandatory: 100%-99%= Pokémon that you need to have on your team because they are the best generic response to various threats.
-Very useful: 99%-90%= Pokémon that can be replaced but are too good to not consider using them unless you are trying something very different.
Useful: 90%-10%= They have excellent qualities, despite being replaceable or not a priority.
Niche: 10% or less = Final slot that you use to cover some current metagame trend or a test of something new.
What's your favorite niche?
Can you execute any win condition on the team while trying to defend?
Poor Toxapex. Due to the halving of almost all PP recovery moves except Wish and the moveset rework removing Toxic and Status Heal from several mons, will Pressure Stall still be viable in the long term future?
Any virtually impossible matchups? CB Gouging Fire in Sun, Hoopa-Unbound, GASTRO ACID Subs Serperior, etc?
Thanks for reading.
I would like to bring my view on the style and ask some questions, some of which I will also answer for myself.
Are we playing with stall or just playing not to lose?
Are we able to build teams or are we just accumulating 6 "required" Pokémon to fill as many gaps as possible? (Has always been)
Defog/Rapid Spin is no longer an alternative? Losing your own progress with hazards in the case of Defog, in addition to the difficulty and cost/benefit of losing a turn using the move, which compromises positioning, there is Gholdengo. It seems more viable to perform 1 or 2 Knock Off absorbers and fill the rest of items with HDB.
How much do you currently rely on Tera in your build?
Personally, Tera Ghost Gliscor for elephant anti-spin and Tera Steel Clodsire are my biggest go-tos. The presence of Rain and Sun has diminished a lot, but I remain with my Blissey Tera Water.
A Tera Dark with Protect is also useful for Future Sight + Something combo.
Now specifically about "necessary" Pokémon for the team;
-Mandatory: 100%-99%= Pokémon that you need to have on your team because they are the best generic response to various threats.
-Very useful: 99%-90%= Pokémon that can be replaced but are too good to not consider using them unless you are trying something very different.
Useful: 90%-10%= They have excellent qualities, despite being replaceable or not a priority.
Niche: 10% or less = Final slot that you use to cover some current metagame trend or a test of something new.
What's your favorite niche?
Can you execute any win condition on the team while trying to defend?
Poor Toxapex. Due to the halving of almost all PP recovery moves except Wish and the moveset rework removing Toxic and Status Heal from several mons, will Pressure Stall still be viable in the long term future?
Any virtually impossible matchups? CB Gouging Fire in Sun, Hoopa-Unbound, GASTRO ACID Subs Serperior, etc?
Thanks for reading.
Can always try again if u rly want the reqs
I play stall on ladder often so I guess I can try to answer some of these.
I'm not really sure what this means? Every team is playing not to lose, and stall, just like others, relies on keeping mons on the board while they're important to answer your opponent's pokemon. You can generally force a win through some combination of hazardspam, knock, and statuses.
For the most part you're building to account for the threats in the tier, but given the uptick in stall RMTs (
and stall being the most prominent of them) after DLC2 I would say there's still a good deal of teambuilding to be had in stall teams.Boots spam is mandatory, but keeping hazards off the field is still valuable if your knock absorbers are put in a precarious position (ex.
and pre-tera against an antilead 
forcing you to eat the hit with a physdef mon like / or risk losing a mon to taxel.). I really don't think Defog is that bad when removing your own hazards due to usually being able to come in and set spikes multiple times per game. Corviknight, Cyclizar, and Talonflame all see moderate use on stall teams for hazard removal in spite of Ghold existing. Having Knock absorbers and boots on most if not all your mons (excluding and flyings that are neutral to SR).Not especially. I run dragon
, ghost , and Grass , but generally don't tera them that much unless I need to beat a specific MU like wellspring. Tera dark is usually my tera of choice if my opponent has stored power sweepers or reveals Psyshock 
.I think your first three tiers are pretty accurate, but there's more stallmons in use than just the last tier. I generally think the stall bible by knex & quacc/supag is a reliable metric for stall pokemon viability in the tier (and probably the best one as of right now), though of course you can draw your own conclusions and disagree with certain tiered pokemon.Now specifically about "necessary" Pokémon for the team;
-Mandatory: 100%-99%= Pokémon that you need to have on your team because they are the best generic response to various threats.
-Very useful: 99%-90%= Pokémon that can be replaced but are too good to not consider using them unless you are trying something very different.
Useful: 90%-10%= They have excellent qualities, despite being replaceable or not a priority.
Niche: 10% or less = Final slot that you use to cover some current metagame trend or a test of something new.
Tera Fairy
, notable stall shitmon. While it's held back by its reliance on Leftovers, it is a remarkably reliable answer to any 
set, and consistently threatens physical mons with SC chip + setup, while having rock-solid special bulk if invested. However, if you have an especially tera-reliant mon such as on your team, it's not worth running due to its base typing being atrocious. I just find that most of my mons have really solid base typings, and it functions as a status absorber with a remarkable defensive profile and strong longevity.The lack of heal bell/aroma isn't really relevant because
would probably be the best cleric to run on stall regardless of if anything else got the moves distributed, and HB Bliss is still a viable set, especially in conjunction with any mons that need Rest for recovery. The pokemon Stall currently has are also very viable at Toxic stalling despite its reduced distribution, with and being some of the best inflictors of the status currently. Locking your opponent into Struggle was never going to be a viable option this generation with how fast-paced the metagame is, but Pressure 
does still serve the important role of draining PP from moves with a low amount of uses (such as CC/HLR, make it rain, and Leaf Storm, among others), neutering the mons they're on when they run out of PP.I think
is a slightly overrated matchup, but I won't deny it's effective at breaking stall and you can lose to it if you aren't prepared. The stall default bad matchups are Swords Dance 
and 
(although the latter is meme counterpick territory). They simply hit like trucks after the slightest boost, with Facade on the former pushing through unless it commits a tera and Mold Breaker completely negating Unaware in the first place, letting it go on a rampage. Aside from that, not really. Stall generally attempts to cover as many bases as possible in the tier so that no matchup completely screws it over.Stall player here. It's probably my most consistent style, so I thought I'd answer some of these questions.
and ), 2 mons are mostly mandatory ( and ) but even those two can be replaced. You then have two slots to fill with whatever you want to counter. So it isn't less required, and more really wanted mons.
especially helps against hazards, though and 
can help. I've even used cinderace on a stall team so my regen mons can have other items. It's not mandatory, but again you can find ways around it. Stall can be a lot more flexible with their choices.
or , that is essential for teambuilding since psyshock ghold screws you over otherwise. Apart from that, tera fighting is really important to not get overwhelmed by 
. Everything else doesn't rely on tera. So I'd say it's about as reliant on tera as every other playstyle.
to the very useful tier. It helps against opposing stall and is a good roadblock in general.
Some other additions to the niche tier:
Bronzong stonewalls kyurem and being a steel type is nice, like a worse corv, while registeel is a wincon that can break open a team if ghost types are taken care of.
on the other hand, you don't win against. You can maybe use corv for it, but that's still iffy and if they have anything to pressure corv, its ggs.
Idk what this means exactly, but if it means "Make the opponent quit" then no. Unless they are being toxic because you are playing stall, then I will go for the evil route.
Only 2 mons are required (
and ), 2 mons are mostly mandatory ( and ) but even those two can be replaced. You then have two slots to fill with whatever you want to counter. So it isn't less required, and more really wanted mons. Although HDB + knock absorbers are definetely the best stall playstyle, you can use defog or rapid spin.
especially helps against hazards, though and can help. I've even used cinderace on a stall team so my regen mons can have other items. It's not mandatory, but again you can find ways around it. Stall can be a lot more flexible with their choices.Tera dark is a neccesity. Whether its on
or , that is essential for teambuilding since psyshock ghold screws you over otherwise. Apart from that, tera fighting is really important to not get overwhelmed by . Everything else doesn't rely on tera. So I'd say it's about as reliant on tera as every other playstyle.Cool list, though I would potentially move down clodsire and gliscor, but that's fair. Amoonguss is definetely in the useful tier, it's the best mon against waterpon, which otherwise brutalises stall teams. Also like to addNow specifically about "necessary" Pokémon for the team;
-Mandatory: 100%-99%= Pokémon that you need to have on your team because they are the best generic response to various threats.
-Very useful: 99%-90%= Pokémon that can be replaced but are too good to not consider using them unless you are trying something very different.
Useful: 90%-10%= They have excellent qualities, despite being replaceable or not a priority.
Niche: 10% or less = Final slot that you use to cover some current metagame trend or a test of something new.
to the very useful tier. It helps against opposing stall and is a good roadblock in general. Some other additions to the niche tier:
Bronzong stonewalls kyurem and being a steel type is nice, like a worse corv, while registeel is a wincon that can break open a team if ghost types are taken care of.
Registeel. Talked about above. Apart from that, dachsbun. Lick is really, really good as the para chance screws over so many things. It may not be the best, but they are such a good boy/girl.
Yes. Dondozo and Corv are the biggest ones, curse waterfall and id+bp of course, but other wincons exist. Calm mind blissey with a special attack i.e. not seismic toss can actually be a decent wincon, it hits suprisingly hard even at +1 with ice beam, flamethrower or shadow ball.
Absoutely. I've used pp stall teams and they decimate opponents (I assume this is what you are talking about). DD Kyurem, Registeel and Deo-S are neccessities on this teamstyle, DD kyurem provides offensive pressure, Deo-S provides speed to stop fast teams from overwhelming you and Registeel is a good wincon. Everything else can be customised, anywhere from suicune to kingambit can work. I've created 30 pp stall sets for mons. So yeah, you can. (some are worse than others, but they can work).
CB Gouging in Sun can be dealt with, its just a difficult matchup. Hoopa-U is difficult but Corv can handle it somewhat, but its still difficult.
on the other hand, you don't win against. You can maybe use corv for it, but that's still iffy and if they have anything to pressure corv, its ggs.
Will be saying that Clodsire is no longer required and I don't even use Clodsire that much anymore. Spdef Pex is probably better nowadays because you can beat Primarina harder. Just use tera dark Blissey instead and it's all good to go.Hello stall players.
I would like to bring my view on the style and ask some questions, some of which I will also answer for myself.
Are we playing with stall or just playing not to lose?
Are we able to build teams or are we just accumulating 6 "required" Pokémon to fill as many gaps as possible? (Has always been)
Defog/Rapid Spin is no longer an alternative? Losing your own progress with hazards in the case of Defog, in addition to the difficulty and cost/benefit of losing a turn using the move, which compromises positioning, there is Gholdengo. It seems more viable to perform 1 or 2 Knock Off absorbers and fill the rest of items with HDB.
How much do you currently rely on Tera in your build?
Personally, Tera Ghost Gliscor for elephant anti-spin and Tera Steel Clodsire are my biggest go-tos. The presence of Rain and Sun has diminished a lot, but I remain with my Blissey Tera Water.
A Tera Dark with Protect is also useful for Future Sight + Something combo.
Now specifically about "necessary" Pokémon for the team;
-Mandatory: 100%-99%= Pokémon that you need to have on your team because they are the best generic response to various threats.
-Very useful: 99%-90%= Pokémon that can be replaced but are too good to not consider using them unless you are trying something very different.
Useful: 90%-10%= They have excellent qualities, despite being replaceable or not a priority.
Niche: 10% or less = Final slot that you use to cover some current metagame trend or a test of something new.
What's your favorite niche?
Can you execute any win condition on the team while trying to defend?
Poor Toxapex. Due to the halving of almost all PP recovery moves except Wish and the moveset rework removing Toxic and Status Heal from several mons, will Pressure Stall still be viable in the long term future?
Any virtually impossible matchups? CB Gouging Fire in Sun, Hoopa-Unbound, GASTRO ACID Subs Serperior, etc?
Thanks for reading.
Clefable is also really good, I like it over Alomomola because it feels like Alomomola + Hydrapple/Muk/whatever and can carry a sticky barb for mirrors and Roaring Moon.
Boots spam will always be supreme unless you run Weezing and additional removal, in which case you can run less boots, but you tend to get inferior builds.
In the flex slot, Amoonguss does wonders, but it is not for everyone. Something to cheese offense is really nice here, maybe you run some toxic spikes somewhere if you can fit it, Dragonite is also a cool pick here.
I'm not sure how much further you can push creativity with stall, but I think if there's one way to test any other developments to get somewhere different, SD Gliscor could probably help to try and cover the balance slot while focusing on anti-offense. Maybe you can use some items on more hazard resistant mons like Ting-Lu, but that's something I still need to test.
My most tera'd mon is probably Clefable, but that's cause I use it to beat Meowscarada and Weavile as well as wisp Pult. I don't like ghost Scor that much because I just justify forgoing it for tera dragon by just wearing down Tusk long term, but ghost is not bad. Fighting Dozo is great as well. Tera is mostly a balance matchup thing where you tera very early to beat some threats, and then against offense you use it to react to threats that are unwallable without tera (psyshock Gholdengo unless you call in the goat spdef Quag) or to counteract their tera.
Bad matchups, uh, you can be pretty liberal with what you choose to lose to and you just choose to lose to some unsets, but stall will always lose to something. Every team will lose to something. The main reason why stall works is that what you choose to lose to are stuff that are so god awful outside of the stall matchup, just have to accept it. Will say that Ursaluna is an overrated matchup, it's only an autolose if they have an Alomomola pairing with it, but if you somehow find a way to slot in Drifblim like the good ol' days of HOME, be my guest. Hoopa is Hoopa, only beating stall badly if you use Hoopa's mid ass and make it use some real garbage sets to cteam. Calm mind knock off Clefable is the hardest thing to prep for, but if you can find a way to compress, this answer will come a lot more easily. CB Gouging just deals a lot of damage but bro dies if you just get some turns correctly, other CB mons are harder to beat in sun like Great Tusk and Slither Wing. Sack something if needed, but once you get rocks up or apply status, Alomomola can wish tect cycle a little, and its even easier to beat if you force a knock on Torkoal which is how you usually beat sun anyways.
Would like to round this out that stall is not about walling your opponent, at the end of the day it's to kill your opponent's mons. The best way I can explain the playstyle is using your bulk to find ways to force progress through status, hazards, residuals, etc. When stall players play too passive, they just lose and maybe they blame it on hax, but you're playing with those odds by just sitting around and walling stuff. This is why so many inexperienced players will complain about stall, call it skilless and just "switch into your walls over and over" and then lose due to giving something like specs Kyurem get so many turns Blissey flat out runs out of soft-boiled PP; you need to actually do something. The easiest way to beat the opponent is 1. hazards against offense, and 2. trading knocks correctly against balance. The easiest way to go about this against balance is bring 2 knock off users and just trade your knock off Gliscor for their Gliscor and then start mashing buttons with knock Clef. Doesn't work always, especially if you don't have double knock, so you would need to try something else like fishing scalds against some mons. Trying to force PP is something that you really only do if your opponent's only threat is that you have no way to actually kill them, in which case you can find ways to force progress that way.
Also will be using this opportunity to plug Stall Empire so join up goons, we will be giving you +200 elo like magic (and plugging this server is one of the main reasons why i bothered to type this all out): https://discord.gg/cRcp8fnP
something popped into my head and idk if this has already been mentioned or dealt with, but how does smogon prevent someone who simply wants to see the world burn, making a bunch of alts (with some precaution like using vpns) and then getting reqs for each of them to make sure nothing ever gets banned? has this ever happened? it would take a lot of effort but people have done a lot worse for a lot less.
also anyone know what CTCs stance is on volc? i tried reading the suspect thread but everything flew over my head and i cant even tell if someone is right or not but CTC is usually right. on his vid, blunder said he thinks no ban so maybe no ban from CTC too?
also anyone know what CTCs stance is on volc? i tried reading the suspect thread but everything flew over my head and i cant even tell if someone is right or not but CTC is usually right. on his vid, blunder said he thinks no ban so maybe no ban from CTC too?
r u sure, who has nothing btr to do with their life then be a nuisance but do stuff like that, also who cares what he thinks u should have ur own opinion if ur planning to vote doesnt matter if hes a bigshot on the site
People spammed the surveys with 5s for kingambit using bots and thus forcing them over to smogon instead of google surveys.
People are petty like that sometimes fr, its crazy but it happens.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/
Nothing really - it's against the rules to have multiple forum accounts but if you're using a VPN and have lots of burner emails, I guess it's possible. But that's a lot of time and effort just to make something get banned or not get banned in a children's video game.
Yeah this wasn't super common but did happen on occasion which is why we moved to forum surveys.
Good look making the required sockpuppet accounts look legit. This would probably be caught on pretty quickly even during the vote counting itself.
i think we should change the rules so that you can get reqs with multiple alts and get an extra vote for each. want to ban bloodmoon? sorry, john ursaluna spent 2 weeks getting reqs everyday and thinks it should stay
i've spent too much time here and i don't even know what's irony or not anymore
you cannot be serious bro. Form your own opinion
Making multiple accounts is against forum rules and we check whoever gets reqs pretty thoroughly, so even if people use VPNs, a lot of 1 post accounts would be a major flag and we can ask PS folk to alt check -- using VPNs on PS is illegal, too, so one way or another we have caught the few cases of this.
I still do not understand how balance is good when almost every problematic pokemon puts the most strain on balance.
Kyurem, Ogerpon, and Roaring Moon all are great against balance teams. Volc and Gambjt are good against most structures so I won’t include them but they still can add stress.
That is not to say I think all of these Mons are ban-worthy, but I love balance and it is really not doing anything for me on the ladder. I still consistently lose to HO and offense with it because it rarely can handle the amount of meta game threats.
Ngl I find Moon to be worst into balance — Taunt sets decimate stall and offense p much has to trade with it and have priority — and I think that the pokemon that compress roles the best (Gliscor, Ting Lu, GKing, etc.) fit into balance.
If you look at high ladder right now or tournaments of late, I think you’ll realize there’s a good variety in this meta. Variety doesn’t always mean it’s good or balanced, but I definitely think that archetype is fine.
Tera fly+taunt ruins most balance switch ins to Roaring Moon doesn’t it? I guess you could run Gambit to make up for that. Idk I haven’t really liked the recent meta but usually my enjoyment stems from how well I play and I’ve been struggling into the above listed pokemon. So it could just be a personal thing.
As for tournaments, I think elite players are extremely good at sequencing out of bad matchups, that the common player (I understand that they do not matter as much) would typically have trouble with. Right now I think if you run into Kyurem with a balance sample team you have to hope that you guess the set right or you‘re screwed.
Puts strain doesnt mean there's not counterplay. I think kyurem and wellspring are broken but they do have counterplay. It's just that its fairly specific counterplay.
That's the main issue with balance right now, it has to compress as many rolls and have so many outs for every scenario. It doesn't have the pure offense of HO to outspeed/overpower your opponent, and it doesn't have the pure defense that Stall has. It can't afford to run something creative or different since then you lose to a very hyper specific mon. It's why Slowking-Galar is dam spammed on every balance team. It's role compression is needed on dam every balance team nowadays and no other pokemon can help you. It's why building balance teams has been really hard compared to more offensive/ defensive teams (stall)
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Nah, I’m almost never finding Roaring Moon getting more than 1 KO + Tera trade with balance. It’s really easy to force chip on it with RH, Ruination, Facade Glisc or Spinner Tusk, Sticky Barb Clef (which ruins it entirely), etc. and that’s not to mention priority excelling into it from there, which multiple possible users of fit onto balance.
Imo Taunt Moon is best into dedicated fat teams as if can assure a 1v1 or chipped Dozo, Skarm, Corv, etc., which means it can get another KO or open the door wide for a teammate. More protective builds don’t allow this even if they use those pokemon.
I mean optimal plays are optimal plays. Detecting sets or sequences is part of the game. Tiering is determined by the council or people who get reqs for a reason. Not being able to make inferences or take calculated risks isn’t really a fault of the tier. I do not at all intend to say “skill issue”, but this isn’t a large issue in my personal opinion.
doing this without getting caught would be nearly impossible. in theory, it would require:
- consistently getting reqs on every account using different teams and playstyles each time to avoid forming patterns, sometimes interacting with other users in battle chats or some of the rooms
- creating separate main showdown accounts for every reqs account, because a reqs account that has a different ip from any other account on the site is suspicious, and several being like that is very suspicious
- using multiple vpns whose ip addresses the showdown admins don't have on file (which really only leaves super-obscure ones), alongside other ip-switching technologies, for each account and its corresponding reqs account, keeping track of all of those, and never slipping up
- setting up a forum account for each reqs account beforehand over the course of at least several months (to avoid "these were all created in a short timespan") and making them all look like naturally-occurring separate people with varied amounts of activity
- continuing this activity after the suspect test for an indefinite period of time so people don't notice "hey a whole bunch of accounts just stopped posting right after the suspect"
- several other things that i won't mention so this doesn't accidentally end up being a tutorial instead of a list