that'd be an interesting experiment since we could just ctrl-z it when dlc2 drops anyway if it turns out to be a bad idea. i propose we do this like a week away from dlc2 just to see what happens
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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id leave enam and moth out (theyre powerful but never feel overbearing), along with maybe holdin back on glisc until after ghold goes, but i do think the kokoloko method is kinda needed here considering the state of the tier. takes less time to retest the less broken ones than to individually test every single broken
I do agree that kokoloko's approach in previous generations of UU might be better for modern tiering because of crap like the DLCs, but the problem is the optics of ignoring the playerbase's beliefs and just doing whatever the OU Council sees fit. You saw the uproar with the Volcarona quickban. I think doing a mass ban wave could negatively affect Smogon in some way if the council is unable to justify it.
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we should hold a community vote/mass suspect on the topic then, or do something akin to the bw suspect waves at the beginning of dlc2 where we can vote on a bunch of things at once instead of one thing at a time. multi-suspects seem like a much more efficient way to go about things when there are this many concerning mons. sure, it's an old approach from a meta that turned out to be bad, but it might be worth revisiting
I'm definitely a believe that Stealth Rock is the real villain. Spikes is powerful, for sure, but bringing a Flying type (or a Levitating mon) really ought to be enough to let you skip out on Heavy-Duty boots. After all, it takes 3 layers of spikes to equal SR against a Rock-weak mon -- the idea that Flying types are actually the most vulnerable to hazards, while being immune to 3/4 of them, is completely insane!
If you make it easier for Flying types (and levitators) to perform their role without HDB, it will make the rest of the hazards significantly worse by themselves.
You know I didn't mention Ribombee on my survey but maybe I should have. I don't really find it broken or uncompetitive but it definitely makes the tier less enjoyable. Don't really think there's any ban recourse there but Ribombee is certainly partially responsible for me rating Fun 4/10 seeing as it has a frustrating type to engage with, a lot of really annoying utility moves, and a crazy speed tier to use them with. Very frustrating as we can't really ban Pokémon just for being annoying but this Pokémon makes the game so much less funEverything I added not on the survey:
I put static as something for the council to look into as zapdos fishing for static and winning the game off pure rng, especially if it's sub zapdos, is not only uncompetitive but also unfun and uninteresting.
Quick Draw and Quick Claw also have the ability to simply rob games very frequently, there is no easy counterplay on almost any styles to an 130+ base attack wallbreaker with a damage boosting ability suddenly having a 100+ stab base power priority move without drawbacks for no reason. I've lost games to 4+ quick claw procs in a row way too many times for me to ever consider it competitive.
I find Ribombee more problematic in breaking Gholdengo than Gliscor, and I believe Gholdengo would barely be a problem without the bee.
I really like this comment also for how you pointed to Ribombee specifically in reference to Gholdengo. Masquerain + Gholdengo webs, while effective prehome, wasn't very dominating or common. It's just Ribombee responsible for Webs being a very spammable archetype now, not Gholdengo- we've seen an A and B test in action with the pre and post Ribombee tiers both having webs and Gholdengo. If Gholdengo truly was the root of the problem as well we'd see a magnitude more setters of webs, spikes, and the rest, chosen for different niches and team structures, not just overwhelmingly Gliscor and Ribombee.
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I am wondering, then, if it would be viable to suspect like gliscor and ghold alongside each other. That I think may be a decent way of going about.
In a "joking but not really" sense, I wouldn't mind seeing like 5 or 6 mons being suspect at once. Get mass community involvement to do essentially a council voting block. Fast track the tiers progress. If a playable tier comes out of it, it can also set precedence that this sort of test can work (idk if this sort of thing has been done before or if it can actually work).
Plus it would just be REALLY funny ngl.
I'm not sure I agree with anything in this post. I can't get behind the concept that the quantity of Pokémon that set hazards is the operating issue because it's not like a team needs more than one or maybe two setters to get hazards up, and ditto for removal. It's not like this is a one billion lions situation where a team of 18 hazard setters is going up against our 3 and a half removers head to head. On teams of 6 pokemon, the number of Pokémon that can perform one role shouldn't be a factor if these Pokémon are usable and fit well onto teams.
Stealth rock is much less relevant than spikes right now because most Pokémon that suffer from it most tend to use boots. It's true that "if you don't run counterplay for this threatening move, it can beat you" but honestly that's on you for not running the counterplay. The same could be said for any threat! There's also not been a significant change or increase in stealth rock distribution, so I'm not sure how the number of stealth rock setters is a factor at all.
I would also like to dispute "stealth rock takes less commitment and work to set than 3 layers of spikes," in the age of ting-lu and Gliscor who can simply click spikes 3 times with zero fear of failure (and Gliscor can protect in there for free healing) and Samurott who can delete a team member and a half just by clicking ceaseless 3x this "difference in effort" is not substantial
Actual clueless Youtube comment tier shit take on Stealth Rock. Especially trying to act like the vast majority of Pokemon we currently have with Levitate are being fucked over by Stealth Rock at all when thats flat out not the case (No, Rotom-Fan and other shitmons like that would not be worth it even without Stealth Rock). Also when a good amount of people are complaining and getting tired of regular old Spikes being much more easily setup and hard to remove nowadays, acting like setting multiple layers is somehow difficult is silly and dumb
This is my main line of thinking. Ghold has always been an issue, but now that we have a ridiculous setter amongst all ridiculous setters in the tier we've finally reached the tipping point.
Gholdengo from the start has been warping the tier around hazards. What it enables Gliscor to do isn't new at all, though Gliscor is definitely the above and away best of the meta hazard setters. It's a Mega Sableye issue where no one realizes how busted it is because overpowered defense looks a lot different from overpowered offense, and this generation's overpowered offense is so ridiculously overturned it's overshadowing Gholdengo. I don't think it's the most actionable thing in the tier, more than Gambit anyway, but we really need to reorient to how this has been the enabler of hazards in SV OU every time, no matter who's setting them.
It's such a shame. I reiterate, I wish Ghold came out a Gen or two before. This is just the gen of the hazards. Like how gen whatever had the whole weather wars. Its a combination of everything that makes hazards in general run like a well oiled machine. It's just one cog of that machine, not even the most shiny (despite the gold plating), but without it, the robot can't function.
Ot maybe getting rid of Spikes is the cog. Or maybe removing more setters is the cog. Maybe we say fuck it and hack in more Defogers. Something has to give. I've had the most fun, and by that I mean less likely to get more stress just by playing, by simply giving in to the crowd and utilizing hazards myself. I can bump my score by using Ghold.
It's weird to call someone clueless, but also misread their post so badly you assume they're suggesting that every shitmon would instantly become relevant, but you do you. The point isn't that a massive amount of mons are thisclose to OU viability -- it's that, much like Poison, Fire, Grass, Electric, Ice and Steel, Flying is supposed to have a "secondary immunity" to hazards.
Looking back over the two HDB generations, either a mon only takes 12.5% from Stealth Rock, or it's wearing the timbs at a significant hit to overall performance. The entire argument reminds me a lot of Covert Cloak, by from the other side - HDB existing is absolutely not a sufficient reason to not take actions on hazards, and when it comes time to do so?
We really should be asking
Flying isn't "supposed" to have a secondary immunity to hazards. You can't just say that because they're immune to 3/4ths of them and just ignore arguably the most popular hazard. You're arbitrarily deciding that flying types should be immune to hazards, leading to you wanting to ban rocks. If there's any conversation to be had about entry hazards, it should almost exclusively be reserved to spikes and/or Gholdengo/Gliscor.
The lack of viable removal in the current metagame heavily buffs spikes more than rocks, the fact you can stack them and deal twice as much damage as rocks with a full layer is bonkers without having boots.
smash cut to sims796 being awarded the nobel prize for saving ou by hacking in more defoggers
How the hell did a cartoon bee cause this much controversy in the competitive scene.
My entire point was that you trying to say that Levitate Pokemon are somehow fucked over by Stealth Rock is a laughably dumb point to try and make when it's demonstrably not true lol (I did mess up with using Rotom-Fan as a specific example, but Rotom-Frost sure as hell aint getting much better without rocks either lol). Also, trying to compare HDB to fucking Covert Cloak just makes you sound like someone that barely plays at all because it's pretty damn obvious how they aren't comparable if you have even a bit of skill and experience. Covert Cloak's main talking point lately in actual tiers was desperation attempts by UU to handle Garganacl before they quickbanned it. HDB is commonly used because being immune to ALL hazards (not just Stealth Rock) is actually pretty damn great, and more then just SR weak Pokemon run it lol. Pivots especially love not having to deal with any hazard damage wearing them down when doing their pivot stuff
Again, you just sound like someone without much experience at all still salty and whining about Stealth Rock ruining "how things should be", which is a dumb nonargument reason to try and get something banned. There's a reason why any actual attempts to try and suspect test/ban SR specfically go nowhere outside of venting and once in a blue moon a ladder is made without it
Y'all would lose your shit so fast at Stall and fatter teams being way harder to break through without hazards lol
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what if we just banned all status moves so that gliscor can’t click toxic or protect or spikes? it’s balanced now!
For real. Stall is hurting right now. Knock their fucking boots off and it falls apart.
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