Didn't I already answer these ridiculous arguments? But fine, since apparently people like that post and QT's post, I'll try to explain one more time. Sorry for getting the thread so off topic (xd) by not explaining a single point well enough.
First of all, blackmail,
Megazard . Blackmail!? That's a pretty serious accusation there, buddy. Care to back it up?
Yeah, I feel like constantly bringing up replacing sketchmons in the manner that it has been done has been counterproductive. First off, this has consistently come across as a "I don't like the sketch meta" issue. Are there other points? Yes, but even in this post you couldn't fail to bring that up as if it really ought to be relevant to this at all. I think the Stabmons meta is far worse from my own experience but that's completely irrelevant here, biased opinions and all that. Secondly, the way that it's brought up is also consistently with the air that it's the community vs leadership and eventually you'll somehow break through and win an amazing victory. There have always been components of victimization and I told you so, symptomatic of a "let's force a reversal of the decision to remove stabmons because I didn't like it" which I'm simply not a fan of. You absolutely have a point and great reasoning for why stabs should come back and I think it probably should come back, but it is that specific part of the free stab movement that I have found so onerous. If the community and leadership are so far disconnected that this is what it takes, that's a whole other problem right there.
And I'm not terribly invested in this decision nor was I a part of changing the ladders originally, I'm just calling them as I see them and if you don't like my analysis then sorry, but perhaps me explaining my position in PMs rather than here would be best.
Secondly, the "STABmons players didn't give Sketch a try" is bogus. QT has pointed this out already, but 4 of the 5 STAB council members tried Sketch, 2 of which are on the Sketch council. So yes, the STABmons old guard gave it a shot, and some were quite successful at it (OF, my first assistant manager, stolen at auction, ring any bells?).
This specifically is the point I think I already explained. Not only does stabs have a wider playerbase than 5 council members (I hope), but what sketches has failed to do is attract people to really contribute and discuss and work on forum projects and do anything to keep the metagame alive in a more meaningful manner.
But to think that players would transition over just because it's a move-based meta -> move-based meta (and then try to blame them for Sketch's failure for being sticks in the mud for not?) is fallacious. There's more to a format besides the concept.
Once again,
I am not blaming stabmons players. I simply wanted to analyze why sketch failed. Clearly there's a difference between it and the other permaladders and in comparing it to Mix and Mega, the other new ladder, this is what I saw as Sketchmons's biggest downfall. From what I've seen most Tier Shift players moved on to other stuff, perhaps because fewer people solo-mained tier shift or perhaps because they accepted the fact that its creation had to wait on PU's anyway. Stabmons players never left the metagame behind and that is not their fault, I'm not blaming them or saying Sketch would be amazing if they'd just done their sacred duty or whatever. I don't know how much more plainly I can put this. Maybe call it a failure of the current incentives for people to play permaladdered metagames? Because one thing sketch also showed is that inclusion in OMGS and OMPL and having a ladder isn't necessarily incentives enough to get most people to want to stick around in the metagame. I wouldn't be surprised if whatever unofficial server stabmons was being run off of had more stabs activity than sketches did on main server, and to me that is something worth analyzing and improving on if you can just move past the "he might be painting stabmons players in a negative light if you don't read it that closely :O" misunderstanding.
And what about the opposite direction, Sketch to STAB? You, chopin, and racool haven't really expressed strong interest in it. Why's that?
Because I was attracted to the OMs with inclusion in tournaments. Regardless of not particularly enjoying my limited testing in stabmons and hating it last gen, I would've signed up for the open right next to BH if it was included. That's the whole point of making some metas permaladders, it's just that I seem to be one of the only people actually attracted by that. Not sure if this is a bait, but it's nonsensical either way.
But besides concept, there's leadership, stability, playerbase, activities ... all which Sketch has lacked for the majority of its tenure. (STAB was consistently producing TFP articles even up to its demise, for example, proving the fanbase was still rock solid.)
I don't disagree, but you're using it as an argument whereas I am using it for analysis in an attempt for OM improvement like the title says. My only goal was to look at that vs. what sketches had and ask why and what can we do and how can we improve. Because the part about it being on the metagame being too unbalanced or whatever sounds like bullshit to every sketchmons player, especially to me as someone who picked up many gen 7 non-mono OMs for the first time during OMGS and found that premise completely false when it came to sketch.
Now, I didn't want to have to say "I told you so," so I'll let Megazard do it for me. From the older version of this thread:
Uuuuh I'm pretty sure you misunderstood something here. I was saying that Mix and Mega is similar to BH in a hard for non dedicated OM people to get into and that Sketchmons and Stabmons are relatively equal. Yes, I wasn't sold on the initial change from stab to sketch, but I haven't claimed to be. In fact I've openly said that Stabmons should probably come back, but that hasn't stopped me from somehow being pro-sketch and anti-stab playerbase.
But now I want to say "I told you so," myself: Here's a warning. A prediction of you will. Sketchmons will suffer the same fate. You have an ex leader of the metagame admitting it can't be balanced. Even recently Chopin began banning moves to try anyway (hmm, remind you of anything?). Your ladder will be popular as people race to find the most broken strategies possible. Give it 6 months and when the playerbase realizes the dust will never settle, they'll move on. The metagame will probably try some absurd complex bans to save it, like banning certain moves on certain mons, things will get confusing, more people will leave.
They did not suffer the same fate. Sketch can be balanced and has improved a lot with the minimal effort we can drum up. Banning moves is not a bad thing. Reminding me of how stabmons sucked is counterproductive. There is no "race to broken strategies", but that sure as hell has happened in other OMs. The playerbase never moved on because sketchmons never managed to attract one. There was/is no need for complex bans. Sketch is not confusing. I really don't like the entire tone of the post, but to say "I told you so" while linking a post as incorrect as this one is absurd.
grievous misrepresentation of the facts
This is probably my chance to cement my presence as a condescending asshole, but all I want to do is use fair facts and analysis and I thought the posts made by you and QT were poor and I would've responded no matter who made them. Hopefully this isn't too egregious.